Tact GF and rene mof, I´d say both are pretty low in dps, not sure who takes the crown. A lot of mofs I recognize are no renegadebuilds, regarding the damage they deal, but maybe I am wrong. No clue how much a double stacked Inspiring Leader for 2 seconds is worth. But I agree that in case we talk of a well build and played supporter-GF the benefit from that class outweights a mof, at least it feels like that. And if I think about the focus-dps a conquerer throws in on top, there is no real question about wich class outperforms the other honestly. I did not get exactly if and how a CW is keeping his debuffs up all time on a single target, but I assume the CW is not capable to do so 24/7 ?
Go inspect the supports that also dps like righteous dc and Op, you will notice they are not 100% crit and 85% armpen and still do 150-200mill in a Tong run.
*inspects self*
I play a Righteous Divine Oracle Cleric support. I have 100% HG uptime, 100% eBtS uptime, TI, and 35k base power, and I have 103% crit rate and 88% resistance ignored. I am a 14k DPS DC.
Interesting. Could you explain how you accomplished this?
I have a DC guide you can look up, but explaining it here would be a bit off-topic.
Well a cursory search in The Temple didn't reveal your guide. Could you provide a link? But I do think it is somewhat relevant to the current topic.
It seems as though there are a bunch of players who think that obtaining those conditions - things like 100% crit, 85% RI, perma-HG, etc. - should be a basic pre-requisite for any serious discussion about buffs, since they are related to how one builds the character, and less of a function of the progression of the character. However, I've been of the opinion that obtaining those conditions is much more strongly dependent on the progression of the character, so it's not unreasonable to discuss a still-progressing character benefitting from buffs that a BiS player wouldn't benefit from. Does that make sense?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
This GF only has 4k recovery since he randomly had a 4k reco mount and I couldn't be bothered to look for other reco gear. It is quite possible to stack inspiring leader if you actually invest in recovery, claiming it is difficult is silly.
thefabricant The way things work now debuffs still add to dmg even if you're maxed on resistance ignored. Even AFTER you reach the 200-300% cap where it starts showing diminishing returns it STILL adds to dmg.
Also with the amount of Tong runs I've been in, BiS teams is a minority. Most just know what to use but that does not mean their stats are maxed on Crit and Arpen. Faaaaaaar from it.
I agree. Can we stop assuming that every player who runs TONG is BiS?
Not yet having 100% crit chance does not mean the character is "built badly", it just means that the character is still progressing. And this is especially true for support classes like OP or DC. AC DCs are told to invest everything in Power, for power-sharing. DO DCs are told to invest everything in Recovery, for the perma-HG buff. I think it would be a very small minority of DO DCs who had enough Recovery for perma-HG, AND had 100% crit chance, AND had 85% resistance ignored.
This is what a "BiS DO DC" looks like (missing temp buff from arms, artificers is up though):
However it is quite possible to cap RI and crit with much less stats than this. If a DO DC is not capping RI, then they are not a hybrid dps, it is that simple.
However it is quite possible to cap RI and crit with much less stats than this. If a DO DC is not capping RI, then they are not a hybrid dps, it is that simple.
Is it possible for a DO DC to have less than 100% crit chance, not be "built badly", and still be capable of running TONG? Might said DC benefit from buffs from other party members that boost crit chance? Would it be worthwhile to discuss how these buffs might help players who are still progressing?
thefabricant The way things work now debuffs still add to dmg even if you're maxed on resistance ignored. Even AFTER you reach the 200-300% cap where it starts showing diminishing returns it STILL adds to dmg.
Also with the amount of Tong runs I've been in, BiS teams is a minority. Most just know what to use but that does not mean their stats are maxed on Crit and Arpen. Faaaaaaar from it.
I agree. Can we stop assuming that every player who runs TONG is BiS?
Not yet having 100% crit chance does not mean the character is "built badly", it just means that the character is still progressing. And this is especially true for support classes like OP or DC. AC DCs are told to invest everything in Power, for power-sharing. DO DCs are told to invest everything in Recovery, for the perma-HG buff. I think it would be a very small minority of DO DCs who had enough Recovery for perma-HG, AND had 100% crit chance, AND had 85% resistance ignored.
A DPS class the goes into tomb will have the RI needed or close enough to it. To the classes that are not DPS, that will assume will benefit from more crit, ArP or what not, we need to actually measure the contribution in DPS, something that the OP refuses to do. If AC DC gets 30% more ArP, after investing (and rightfully so) in Power, what will the overal benefit will be in terms of DPS, and is it higher than direct buff to the main DPS/s in the party? Usually not. In a rough estimate doubling the AC DC damage will be as buffing the main DPS by 10%?, if we look at the overall party. So is it importan, that increase in crit and ArP for support role? I'm still waiting for the OP to show us numbers how it does or doesn't.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
However it is quite possible to cap RI and crit with much less stats than this. If a DO DC is not capping RI, then they are not a hybrid dps, it is that simple.
Is it possible for a DO DC to have less than 100% crit chance, not be "built badly", and still be capable of running TONG? Might said DC benefit from buffs from other party members that boost crit chance? Would it be worthwhile to discuss how these buffs might help players who are still progressing?
As in the previous post i've wrote, sure, lets say they will benefit, the question is the total contribution to the party, and what type of buff is better / scale better MoF or GF.
When I run as DO (I only run DC in tomb), I have meh amount of crit, meh ArP, but I don't presume to deal damage. My rotation is buff only (with chains because chains are fast and easy). 20%, 30%, even doubling my damage in Tomb will not be a significant buff to the parties DPS. And that's the problem with buffing ArP for support classes, either they don't need it, and the difference will be very low, or you buff the DPS which should have it anyway, or aim to get it. These are also no secondary stats or power for DPS, every DPS will try to get ArP first and foremost, even if over-capping with SH boon. So there is only very niche sitation where the DPS is not prioritizing correctly and then it can help. But I dn't think a comparison is "how we fix peoples mistakes" but actually more standard case.
Especially in the case of ArP where it's both a priority and easy to get, even more so with things like bonespoors (or how they called) boots
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Go inspect the supports that also dps like righteous dc and Op, you will notice they are not 100% crit and 85% armpen and still do 150-200mill in a Tong run.
*inspects self*
I play a Righteous Divine Oracle Cleric support. I have 100% HG uptime, 100% eBtS uptime, TI, and 35k base power, and I have 103% crit rate and 88% resistance ignored. I am a 14k DPS DC.
Interesting. Could you explain how you accomplished this?
I have a DC guide you can look up, but explaining it here would be a bit off-topic.
Well a cursory search in The Temple didn't reveal your guide. Could you provide a link? But I do think it is somewhat relevant to the current topic.
You can find it here although you can expect to do a lot of reading to find it.
It seems as though there are a bunch of players who think that obtaining those conditions - things like 100% crit, 85% RI, perma-HG, etc. - should be a basic pre-requisite for any serious discussion about buffs,
Okay, I want to be very clear on something. 100% crit on DC is not the norm, however, 85% RI is foolish to talk about, since it can be obtained on a DC easier than almost any other class, and anyone who claims to deal damage in ToNG should prioritize this stat first. There is no excuse for not having 85% RI in ToNG if you are DPS. None. Perma-HG is a weird one. Allies actually help a ton with creating a situation where you can perma-HG. If the rest of your group is BiS, but you are a 10k DO with almost no stats, you can probably still perma-HG with a couple of items worth maybe 100k AD max, assuming your team knows how to help you, and you know how to be helped. That being said, you can obtain perma HG without allies with something like 14k recovery using a specific set of items (that aren't quite so cheap). Add your allies back in and you can get away with less than 5k recovery depending on your group. I would say that any DO worth their salt should be able to perma-HG with 85% armor pen easily.
Chaotic Nexus does LITERALLY nothing for anyone at or above 85% RI, it can and should be ignored completely unless you really want to start calculating the damage increase it gives to the AC DC.
It took me till just recently to cap crit, so I know how hard that is. Yeah I would have liked a crit buff back before I capped crit, sure. The buff itself is worth about 2-3% more damage for someone with 50% crit chance and 120% crit severity, so it's not the worst buff in the world, but it's also not that big either. (EDIT please note that I did this equation without Nexus, which is over a 20% damage buff in this situation)
The reason I personally like to do all my calculations assuming BiS is not because it is the norm. It isn't. I know this. It is because I don't like creating characters or builds that will get out-scaled. If my character is the best support/dps/tank for a newbie group, what happens when me and/or my group out-scales the usefulness of this character or build? Yeah there is a middle ground, and calculations probably should be made for both newbie and BiS so that you can see when one class passes another, but generally speak people always speak in BiS because nobody wants to make a character that becomes inferior as they improve it. They speak in BiS even if they themselves aren't BiS, simply so that they always build the BiS gear, practice the BiS rotations, and understand the BiS mechanics, so that as they continue they get closer and practice what will be best, even if it may not be the best right now. I would never tell a newbie to go farm motes for burning weapons while they wait to enter the higher zones. These give very little benefit, and will waste a ton of time and resources just to get replaced. Similarly, I would never tell someone wanting to play a budget support to play a support that gets out-scaled once they have progressed far enough. Again, this is why I calculate at or near BiS for comparisons.
And that's the problem with buffing ArP for support classes, either they don't need it, and the difference will be very low, or you buff the DPS which should have it anyway, or aim to get it.
I agree with you in the case of Armor Penetration, it is comparatively easy to get. I am thinking more along the lines of Critical Chance, which is a little harder. Suppose you are a DPS character who only has, say, 75% critical chance because you are still progressing to 100%. Would this character be best served by a buff that boosted critical chance, or a buff that boosted pure damage? Obviously it would depend on the nature of the buff, but it is not automatically the case that the latter buff is the better choice. Which is, I think, part of the OP's point of this discussion. Talking about what would benefit a BiS character, or a character that already has 100% critical chance, is not the same as talking about what would benefit a character that is still trying to reach 100% critical chance, at that particular moment in progression.
And that's the problem with buffing ArP for support classes, either they don't need it, and the difference will be very low, or you buff the DPS which should have it anyway, or aim to get it.
I agree with you in the case of Armor Penetration, it is comparatively easy to get. I am thinking more along the lines of Critical Chance, which is a little harder. Suppose you are a DPS character who only has, say, 75% critical chance because you are still progressing to 100%. Would this character be best served by a buff that boosted critical chance, or a buff that boosted pure damage? Obviously it would depend on the nature of the buff, but it is not automatically the case that the latter buff is the better choice. Which is, I think, part of the OP's point of this discussion. Talking about what would benefit a BiS character, or a character that already has 100% critical chance, is not the same as talking about what would benefit a character that is still trying to reach 100% critical chance, at that particular moment in progression.
You need to convert that crit chance buff to a relative multiplier so that it can be compared with the damage buff.
Assuming these variables: Crit chance before buffs: 30% Crit Severity: 200% (Dread user with near maximum boons/potions) Damage that can crit: 90% (Aura of Courage, and other similar effects cannot crit, but lets calculate the maximum)
= 5.84% damage multiplier from Uncertain Allegiance This is likely the maximum possible this buff could ever give a party. These stats are actually unreasonable, and anyone in ToNG should not have stats this low.
Assuming these (more realistic) variables Crit chance before buffs: 75% Crit Severity: 120% (Feytouched user with near maximum boons/potions) Damage that can crit: 90% (honestly this number should be lower, but I will leave it here at 90%)
=2.98% damage multiplier from Uncertain Allegiance Are you starting to see how fast this buff calls off? In probably it's most favorable realistic condition it is a 3% buff. Yes, it shouldn't be ignored in every situation, but is it going to beat GF?
Assuming these (what I would consider realistic) variables Crit chance before buffs: 85% Crit Severity: 100% (Feytouched user that isn't using potions since they don't have max crit anyways) Damage that can crit: 80%
=2.38% damage multiplier from Uncertain Allegiance Are you starting to see how fast this buff calls off? In probably it's most favorable realistic condition it is a 3% buff. Yes, it shouldn't be ignored in every situation, but is it going to beat GF?
Formula used to calculate this:
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
And that's the problem with buffing ArP for support classes, either they don't need it, and the difference will be very low, or you buff the DPS which should have it anyway, or aim to get it.
I agree with you in the case of Armor Penetration, it is comparatively easy to get. I am thinking more along the lines of Critical Chance, which is a little harder. Suppose you are a DPS character who only has, say, 75% critical chance because you are still progressing to 100%. Would this character be best served by a buff that boosted critical chance, or a buff that boosted pure damage? Obviously it would depend on the nature of the buff, but it is not automatically the case that the latter buff is the better choice. Which is, I think, part of the OP's point of this discussion. Talking about what would benefit a BiS character, or a character that already has 100% critical chance, is not the same as talking about what would benefit a character that is still trying to reach 100% critical chance, at that particular moment in progression.
1. The issue is the OP is not discussing anything, they assert, without proof.
2. Crit vs direct damage increase is not simple, there are 3 factors to think about:
A. What is the severity? B. What actually can crit? C. To what direct damage buff we compare it?
(I took your example with 75% chance, and hopefull didn't make a mistake there )
The issue is that crapton of things do not crit, AoC for example which is the highest damage 'skill' for CW. And those that don't have high crit wont have high severity to begin with, for example you will favor fey or another enchant over vorpal if you have low crit chance.
Another thing to account for is uptime..
Edit: I didn't know it's 5% only, I thought much more, so here:
Thank you @micky1p00 and @darthtzarr for the discussion. It seems as though CW's Uncertain Allegiance, for a player with less than 100% crit chance, is a slightly smaller buff than GF's Inspiring Leader buff, by something in the neighborhood of 1-2%, but it is not a "slam-dunk". So for progressing players, the GF wins slightly, and the advantage of GF over CW (on this one metric) grows as the critical chance of the individual players increase. Thanks for this discussion, too often it seems the discussion centers around BiS, but since most people aren't BiS and will likely never be BiS, it is good to have more discussions like this.
Run some parties with people in the community from different channels and you will see how nexus helps. Support roles doing 100-200mill dmg. If you're BiS already then ya go with GF but if you notice these groups in channels are not BiS and they are only looking for GF buffer to fill their 2 DC 1Op 1Dps composition. Nexus buff depends on party which is why I can't show the buff of it. The dmg buff from both Mof Rene and GF is about the same without Nexus included so to me that sais enough.
A 13k DPS can (and should) cap crit and RI. Stop spamming the term "BiS" like it's something out of reach, that we use to theorycraft. The community is not "either bis or pug". And dps without RI capped in tong is as much of a minority as high-end parties are, unless you are using PE lfg to make your party. Do you want to be a good samaritan and build to carry low-end players? Go ahead. But don't spread your bs conclusions that derived from a so-called "discussion" as the truth.
Okay, I wanted to come in and mention that I totally missed the fact that Nexus give crit chance. I have been calculating it this entire time as Uncertain Allegiance being the only crit buff. If you want the buff value for Nexus it is calculated the same way with a much higher value. Note that I am still ignoring armor pen
Assuming these variables Crit chance before buffs: 50% Crit Severity: 100% Damage that can crit: 80%
=17.14% damage multiplier from Nexus
Assuming these variables Crit chance before buffs: 75% Crit Severity: 100% Damage that can crit: 80%
=12.5% damage multiplier from Nexus
Assuming these variables Crit chance before buffs: 85% Crit Severity: 100% Damage that can crit: 80%
Run some parties with people in the community from different channels and you will see how nexus helps. Support roles doing 100-200mill dmg. If you're BiS already then ya go with GF but if you notice these groups in channels are not BiS and they are only looking for GF buffer to fill their 2 DC 1Op 1Dps composition. Nexus buff depends on party which is why I can't show the buff of it. The dmg buff from both Mof Rene and GF is about the same without Nexus included so to me that sais enough.
You could have been a bit more clear that Nexus gave crit after I have said like 5 times that we can ignore it. If you had given an actual reason to why it shouldn't be ignored it could have really helped your ... "argument"
Yes, it depends on the party, that's why you give example parties that it would be good in and calculate it for those parties to prove it is better in those parties.
This is a case study of people assuming Righteous DC and Justice OP don't contribute to dmg of party and if they do then they assume they already have crit and armpen capped when most stack power :P
To be clear: Not every class caps crit, but every primary damage dealer should. And not every player caps ArPen, but every player attempting TONG should.
If the question is: who supports a lackluster party better? The answer is "probably CW, since they can better compensate for others' poor build deficiencies"
If the question is: who supports a top-of-the-line party better? The answer is "definitely GF, since their more consistent buffs synergize better with properly built damage dealers"
If the question is: can we find creative ways to represent our personal biases as definitive truths? The answer is "Absolutely."
I'm curious if the people commenting in thread actually run Tong with groups from channels on a regular bases.
Occasionally, but I don't run with channels as much as before. These days it's mostly friends / guild / alliance.
I've seen lots of fun compositions, and the fastest runs aren't always the most fun. But if you're looking for max clear speed in a BiS team, a GF instead of MoF CW is very likely to get you there faster.
I'm curious if the people commenting in thread actually run Tong with groups from channels on a regular bases.
if you'd take the time to read what the people posting here have said many times, you'd understand that none of these folks are the biased idiots that refuse to give your MoF a shot
Illusory Truth is only compounded by lazy players, and the people you are arguing with are actually the most likely to take a MoF or even an SW or TR into T9G just to see what happens
It seems your problem is the people you are attempting to join up with, not the forum intelligencia that you provoked with your click-baity post
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No clue how much a double stacked Inspiring Leader for 2 seconds is worth. But I agree that in case we talk of a well build and played supporter-GF the benefit from that class outweights a mof, at least it feels like that.
And if I think about the focus-dps a conquerer throws in on top, there is no real question about wich class outperforms the other honestly.
I did not get exactly if and how a CW is keeping his debuffs up all time on a single target, but I assume the CW is not capable to do so 24/7 ?
It seems as though there are a bunch of players who think that obtaining those conditions - things like 100% crit, 85% RI, perma-HG, etc. - should be a basic pre-requisite for any serious discussion about buffs, since they are related to how one builds the character, and less of a function of the progression of the character. However, I've been of the opinion that obtaining those conditions is much more strongly dependent on the progression of the character, so it's not unreasonable to discuss a still-progressing character benefitting from buffs that a BiS player wouldn't benefit from. Does that make sense?
This GF only has 4k recovery since he randomly had a 4k reco mount and I couldn't be bothered to look for other reco gear. It is quite possible to stack inspiring leader if you actually invest in recovery, claiming it is difficult is silly. This is what a "BiS DO DC" looks like (missing temp buff from arms, artificers is up though):
However it is quite possible to cap RI and crit with much less stats than this. If a DO DC is not capping RI, then they are not a hybrid dps, it is that simple.
Edit: Nevermind I just saw where you wrote that Artificer's Persuasion was up.
To the classes that are not DPS, that will assume will benefit from more crit, ArP or what not, we need to actually measure the contribution in DPS, something that the OP refuses to do. If AC DC gets 30% more ArP, after investing (and rightfully so) in Power, what will the overal benefit will be in terms of DPS, and is it higher than direct buff to the main DPS/s in the party?
Usually not. In a rough estimate doubling the AC DC damage will be as buffing the main DPS by 10%?, if we look at the overall party. So is it importan, that increase in crit and ArP for support role?
I'm still waiting for the OP to show us numbers how it does or doesn't.
When I run as DO (I only run DC in tomb), I have meh amount of crit, meh ArP, but I don't presume to deal damage. My rotation is buff only (with chains because chains are fast and easy). 20%, 30%, even doubling my damage in Tomb will not be a significant buff to the parties DPS.
And that's the problem with buffing ArP for support classes, either they don't need it, and the difference will be very low, or you buff the DPS which should have it anyway, or aim to get it.
These are also no secondary stats or power for DPS, every DPS will try to get ArP first and foremost, even if over-capping with SH boon. So there is only very niche sitation where the DPS is not prioritizing correctly and then it can help. But I dn't think a comparison is "how we fix peoples mistakes" but actually more standard case.
Especially in the case of ArP where it's both a priority and easy to get, even more so with things like bonespoors (or how they called) boots
Okay, I want to be very clear on something. 100% crit on DC is not the norm, however, 85% RI is foolish to talk about, since it can be obtained on a DC easier than almost any other class, and anyone who claims to deal damage in ToNG should prioritize this stat first. There is no excuse for not having 85% RI in ToNG if you are DPS. None. Perma-HG is a weird one. Allies actually help a ton with creating a situation where you can perma-HG. If the rest of your group is BiS, but you are a 10k DO with almost no stats, you can probably still perma-HG with a couple of items worth maybe 100k AD max, assuming your team knows how to help you, and you know how to be helped. That being said, you can obtain perma HG without allies with something like 14k recovery using a specific set of items (that aren't quite so cheap). Add your allies back in and you can get away with less than 5k recovery depending on your group. I would say that any DO worth their salt should be able to perma-HG with 85% armor pen easily.
Chaotic Nexus does LITERALLY nothing for anyone at or above 85% RI, it can and should be ignored completely unless you really want to start calculating the damage increase it gives to the AC DC.
It took me till just recently to cap crit, so I know how hard that is. Yeah I would have liked a crit buff back before I capped crit, sure. The buff itself is worth about 2-3% more damage for someone with 50% crit chance and 120% crit severity, so it's not the worst buff in the world, but it's also not that big either. (EDIT please note that I did this equation without Nexus, which is over a 20% damage buff in this situation)
The reason I personally like to do all my calculations assuming BiS is not because it is the norm. It isn't. I know this. It is because I don't like creating characters or builds that will get out-scaled. If my character is the best support/dps/tank for a newbie group, what happens when me and/or my group out-scales the usefulness of this character or build? Yeah there is a middle ground, and calculations probably should be made for both newbie and BiS so that you can see when one class passes another, but generally speak people always speak in BiS because nobody wants to make a character that becomes inferior as they improve it. They speak in BiS even if they themselves aren't BiS, simply so that they always build the BiS gear, practice the BiS rotations, and understand the BiS mechanics, so that as they continue they get closer and practice what will be best, even if it may not be the best right now. I would never tell a newbie to go farm motes for burning weapons while they wait to enter the higher zones. These give very little benefit, and will waste a ton of time and resources just to get replaced. Similarly, I would never tell someone wanting to play a budget support to play a support that gets out-scaled once they have progressed far enough. Again, this is why I calculate at or near BiS for comparisons.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Assuming these variables:
Crit chance before buffs: 30%
Crit Severity: 200% (Dread user with near maximum boons/potions)
Damage that can crit: 90% (Aura of Courage, and other similar effects cannot crit, but lets calculate the maximum)
= 5.84% damage multiplier from Uncertain Allegiance
This is likely the maximum possible this buff could ever give a party. These stats are actually unreasonable, and anyone in ToNG should not have stats this low.
Assuming these (more realistic) variables
Crit chance before buffs: 75%
Crit Severity: 120% (Feytouched user with near maximum boons/potions)
Damage that can crit: 90% (honestly this number should be lower, but I will leave it here at 90%)
=2.98% damage multiplier from Uncertain Allegiance
Are you starting to see how fast this buff calls off? In probably it's most favorable realistic condition it is a 3% buff. Yes, it shouldn't be ignored in every situation, but is it going to beat GF?
Assuming these (what I would consider realistic) variables
Crit chance before buffs: 85%
Crit Severity: 100% (Feytouched user that isn't using potions since they don't have max crit anyways)
Damage that can crit: 80%
=2.38% damage multiplier from Uncertain Allegiance
Are you starting to see how fast this buff calls off? In probably it's most favorable realistic condition it is a 3% buff. Yes, it shouldn't be ignored in every situation, but is it going to beat GF?
Formula used to calculate this:
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
2. Crit vs direct damage increase is not simple, there are 3 factors to think about:
A. What is the severity?
B. What actually can crit?
C. To what direct damage buff we compare it?
Here a quick example, for what crit chance increase will be worth as damage increase (direct buff) at given severity.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/cry2veletq
(I took your example with 75% chance, and hopefull didn't make a mistake there )
The issue is that crapton of things do not crit, AoC for example which is the highest damage 'skill' for CW.
And those that don't have high crit wont have high severity to begin with, for example you will favor fey or another enchant over vorpal if you have low crit chance.
Another thing to account for is uptime..
Edit:
I didn't know it's 5% only, I thought much more, so here:
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vqa5yaa19m
B = base chance: 0.75 = 75%
X going from 75 to 200 severity, you get the increase in damage from 5% more chance
We are talking about ~2%-3% here, downhill and with the wind blowing from behind.
Assuming these variables
Crit chance before buffs: 50%
Crit Severity: 100%
Damage that can crit: 80%
=17.14% damage multiplier from Nexus
Assuming these variables
Crit chance before buffs: 75%
Crit Severity: 100%
Damage that can crit: 80%
=12.5% damage multiplier from Nexus
Assuming these variables
Crit chance before buffs: 85%
Crit Severity: 100%
Damage that can crit: 80%
=7.14% damage multiplier from Nexus
You could have been a bit more clear that Nexus gave crit after I have said like 5 times that we can ignore it. If you had given an actual reason to why it shouldn't be ignored it could have really helped your ... "argument"
Yes, it depends on the party, that's why you give example parties that it would be good in and calculate it for those parties to prove it is better in those parties.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
And not every player caps ArPen, but every player attempting TONG should.
If the question is: who supports a lackluster party better? The answer is "probably CW, since they can better compensate for others' poor build deficiencies"
If the question is: who supports a top-of-the-line party better? The answer is "definitely GF, since their more consistent buffs synergize better with properly built damage dealers"
If the question is: can we find creative ways to represent our personal biases as definitive truths? The answer is "Absolutely."
I've seen lots of fun compositions, and the fastest runs aren't always the most fun. But if you're looking for max clear speed in a BiS team, a GF instead of MoF CW is very likely to get you there faster.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Illusory Truth is only compounded by lazy players, and the people you are arguing with are actually the most likely to take a MoF or even an SW or TR into T9G just to see what happens
It seems your problem is the people you are attempting to join up with, not the forum intelligencia that you provoked with your click-baity post