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Which adds more overall dmg to party? Mof Rene does (not GF)
anesading
Member Posts: 83 Arc User
Mof has SoD,CA, Enfeeble, prestidigitation, uncertain allegiance (5% crit to allies) and chaotic nexus/fury = 61.5% debuff + 2%stats, chance of 30% dmg/ 30% crit,armpen
Some say the crit and armpen buff from nexus is not counted towards the buffs because people are already at max but I'm sure the DPS Ops and Dps DOs find it usefull.
Some say the crit and armpen buff from nexus is not counted towards the buffs because people are already at max but I'm sure the DPS Ops and Dps DOs find it usefull.
Post edited by anesading on
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Inspiring Leader actually "adds" 6.5% to Into the Fray. The reasoning is that Inspiring Leader is actually its own seperate damage buff and, as you know, all damage increasing buffs in this game are multiplicative versus each other. (1.3 * 1.05 = 1.365). Since R4 ITF is already a 30% damage buff, the only difference is 6.5%.
Commander's Strike doesn't actually buff your teammates' damage. It just takes 40% of the DPSer's Encounter hit and applies it as a second hit. It technically "adds" the correct team damage output, but you might get some GWF disappointed that you don't actually buff their IBS epeen.
1730.4/4326= 0.4, or 40% as expressed as a decimal.
It's more realistic to say Tactician GF offers a 6.5% damage buff, since any GF can run Crushing Pin, use ITF, or press Tab. And CS's damage won't be helping a Tactician GF in their DPS by a whole lot, unless you can bring back prepatch CS.
Presdigitation is only good for trolling Sharp, since the stat buff only works on your base stats. The gains from Presdigitation are so miniscule that they offer very little impact in increasing your party's overall DPS.
You can only really count Swath, Combustive, and a second RoE debuff for the unique MoF Rene contributions. This is because a SS Renegade, a far more useful path, can grant Chaotic Fury. All CW builds can use RoE offtab.
The problem I see with Chaotic Nexus/Uncertain Allegiance is that .... only dumb players don't bother to fill out their two most important stats (Crit and ArmorPen). Since you mentioned DPS DO and DPS OP, we can reasonably assume we're looking at a BiS setup, since those two build types will only appear together in a BiS team. In a BiS setup, everyone already hits the Resistance Ignored/Criitical Chance cap (and the OP is running Baneadin anyways, so their DPS is irrelevant).
The contributions provided by a MoF Rene will beat out a Tactician GF in terms of buffing your party.
However, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who kills the enemy or who assists in killing the enemy. What matters most is "is the enemy dead" and "how fast did you kill the enemy/enemies".
In both fronts, both lose efficiency-wise to a DPS GF because there is no greater support than nuking everything important with 3 Griffons hits. In addition, you wont lose marking or ITF with a DPS GF, and you even have a slot open for whatever DPS class you wish to bring.
Whaa??? Both MoF and SS can use RoE on tab for a second debuff. And it doesn't matter if you are SS or MoF when you choose the renegade path, both grant the chaotic fury feat. ACT proves this.
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Tokarek Bearded Dwarven OP Tankadin
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GF buffs more, its not even a question. The buff ITF provides is equal to the 1 buff MoF has in value except a GF can keep it up 100% of the time. Both classes give combat advantage, so that can be ignored. If you count the debuffs, im not sure how in the "support" category the 2 classes compare, I would guess GF wins slightly, but it is just a guess. I don't know if Inspiring Leader still stacks the way it used to, but if it does, then a tact gf could stack a stupid amount of recovery and keep it up more than once.
If you include the damage contribution of a good DpS GF to the group however, GF wins by a landslide, it is not even close.
About those debuffs I allways wondered how much a mof can hold up 24/7, since some throw in a whopping 87% in those coloured sheets, wich is far > than 18% from GF ?
Also with the amount of Tong runs I've been in, BiS teams is a minority. Most just know what to use but that does not mean their stats are maxed on Crit and Arpen. Faaaaaaar from it.
If we do some maths:
1) Assume effectiveness is at 200% before adding either class.
2) GF has 18% debuffs.
3) CW has 79% (CA (24%) + SoD (20%) + RoE (35% double stacked))
4) We ignoring pet debuffs etc, since both classes can use those.
5) We are ignoring the possibility that Inspiring Leader stacks.
6) Both classes provide Combat Advantage, so ignoring that.
7) Ignoring crit+arp buffs because you don't assume people are built badly in theoretical situations.
GF: 1.3 (ITF) * 1.05 (Inspiring Leader) * 1.06678 (DpS increase from debuffs) = 1.4561547
CW: 1.15 (Chaotic Fury) * 1.259 (DpS increase from debuffs) = 1.4835
If Inspiring Leader stacks, GF wins just looking at these, otherwise CW wins. However, this is also ignoring the fact that the tact GF can also run commander's strike (im not sure how much of a dps increase it is, so not counting it) and it is also not counting the AP gain+movement speed buff from ITF, or the extra utility from KV etc that a GF provides.
And this is looking at a tact GF, if we assume the GF is conq and does damage its not even a comparison, the GF wins.
To be clear what I really meant when making this post was which one adds more to overall dmg of party because a lot of the groups forming for Tong only focus on GF Buff.
So to the community, Mof Rene adds more overall dmg to your party!
It still stacks and each stack is multiplicative with the previous which means that GF wins, even as Tactician and ignoring the benefits of Conq and the multitude of other benefits a tact gf provides.
And really...Chaotic Growth and Nexus do not even remotely compare to KV and the AP gain of tact.
Everything depends on situation. If we assume TONG, we at should assume that, if its end game dungeon, party is also near to end game/BIS. And belive me or not in such parties its gona be hard to find any1 without arpen already maxed out while main dps have both arpen and crit maxed out. Heck I would say that party not having that maxed is a recipe for disaster.
So those arpen/crit buffs are... well not bad, but as gap fillers, when for example some1 will loose companion.
So your buffs can be - again - depending on situation - absolutly obsolete or absolutely needed.
If you type something like you actually type BS. Cos stright after I can ask question wha is his IL. If 12k - it means that in TONG he is perma dead, if rest of his party is same level - all gona be dead. If he is acompanied by BIS party he is possibly a usefull burden
I see so many GF buff bots that do no dmg and making runs slow as hell because 1) party does not have 100% crit and 88%armpen 2) forgetting or not knowing that debuffs still add dmg after resistance ignored 3) not seeing that fury procs A LOT
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
1. Pretty sure the MoF Personals were kept in mind.
2. So it's the GF's fault that the party is
reunable to build their characters properly and rely on a MoF to cap their most important stats? Actually, let's say you do. You have a pocket MoF who's 24/7 onine and available, so you have it in your party 100% of the time. A good dps from your perspective is someone who waits for Chaotic Nexus (ontop of a ton of other buffs you need to keep an eye out for) to deal damage? And when Nexus is down, what, you afk? And let's say you do this. You save crit and pene. I'm assuming the stats saved are allocated into power. You saved 30% Crit Chance and 30% RI. This is 12k Crit and ~4k Pene, 16k Stats total. Let's even assume best case scenario, you trade these for power in a 1:1. That's 16k power. How much power do you have in a run? I won't assume 250k, that's probably too much for such players. Not even 200k really. 170k? 16k power on top of that is a 7.62% dps increase. *Slow clap* You managed to make yourself useless without a class, and useless for a good portion of combat time even with that class, for a 8% dps increase.3. 88%...?
4. Debuffs are irrelevant to DR, they always add damage, and they always have diminishing returns, not "after 200-300% cap".
5. @thefabricant factored it in as a 50% uptime buff, is "A LOT" more than 50% of the time?
Resistance ignore and debuffs have no special interaction. You can have both, either one, or neither one, and each gives or takes depending by the values.
Diminishing returns on debuff start from 0, adding 1% debuff from 1% to 2% will net less effective damage increase than adding 1% from 0% to 1%. You shouldn't dismiss a mechanic common to another CW path when comparing to a GF....
When comparing, dismissing commons is the same as removing the same variable on both sides:
a * b =? a * cWe dismiss "a" as common, so unless GF suddenly learned to RoE or something, it shouldn't be dismissed. And the best total of the class/path in question counted. What you really meant when making the post is not to have any discussion or numbers, you meant that you wanted to deliever your biased spiel.
Unfortunately, saying something is true, doesn't make it so, we saw one set of numbers, feel free to counter those, not by claims, but by argument and proof.
For reference, I don't play GF, I do play CW (MoF/SS and I like MoF), and I'll rather see MoF buffed to something better if it's under-performing than see misinformation that will doom a path and class just for the sake of not sure what.
Don't always trust the inspect menus. Unless you are in-combat and know all of the mechanics of the class you are looking at, you probably won't even see the correct number on the inspect menu. Bondings only show in-combat, and some classes have armor pen buffs that don't show properly on some sections of the inspect menu. If your DPS, tank, or really anyone wearing an orcus set doesn't have maximum armor pen (which is 85%), you can probably kick them, since they are actually clueless. He didn't dismiss chaotic fury. He dismissed chaotic nexus and chaotic growth. And I think you missed the part where he said that Inspiring Leader stacks. If you build pure recovery on a Tact GF in a group with an OP and AC DC, that GF could potentially stack Inspiring Leader 3 to 4 times. That's a 100% up-time 45-50% buff coming from the Guardian Fighter. How in the world does the MoF compare to that?
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
By your post, we have 50% buff and 20% debuff on one side, and 61.5% debuff + 2% stats etc... on the MoF side
Where is the conclusion of what higher and what lower? How you reached it?
I can say that TR has 31% resistance debuff, who knows how much CB damage debuff, self damage, great looks, and better personality so it's better that either GF or MoF. That's not proof, that's throwing numbers in the air.
I play a Righteous Divine Oracle Cleric support. I have 100% HG uptime, 100% eBtS uptime, TI, and 35k base power, and I have 103% crit rate and 88%
My statement kinda still stands though. If they don't have all their armor pen, that's their fault. If they don't have 85% armor pen, what other mistakes did they make if they messed up on sometime that basic? Never trust a DPS or DPS hybrid that doesn't have 85% armor pen.
Note that if you mention it to them they might even check their gear and notice that they have the wrong boots/mount/boon/whatever on when they switched loadouts, I have done this before. It's an easy mistake and it sacrifices so much damage that it is never worth running without 85% RI. I can understand partially an argument for crit, since it is much harder to cap, but never in a BiS ... or even well geared group.
Gear Check > MoF
EDIT - oh and I have 103% crit rate simply because I am in the middle of transitioning some of that crit into other places.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Not yet having 100% crit chance does not mean the character is "built badly", it just means that the character is still progressing. And this is especially true for support classes like OP or DC. AC DCs are told to invest everything in Power, for power-sharing. DO DCs are told to invest everything in Recovery, for the perma-HG buff. I think it would be a very small minority of DO DCs who had enough Recovery for perma-HG, AND had 100% crit chance, AND had 85% resistance ignored.
If stacks meaning if the party has two GFs
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John