CW - Full on Damager vs Buffing/Debuffing

mebengalsfan · March 2017

I stated this in another thread but after consideration I believe this topic needs its own thread for discussion.

This is a question to the experienced CW that have run both a full on damager builds and Buffer/Debuffing builds.

The question is, does the CW buff/debuff build the group enough to justify not running as pure CW damager?

Has anyone run a test like the one highlight below?

Group: GF (with ITF), DC (using BoB and AA), GWF, SW, and CW

Just curious if anyone tested this out to see how much of an impact a CW buffer/debuffer has on completion time in dungeons with a balanced group that already has a GF and a DC, which is what I normally see in dungeons. I rarely see any Paladins unless I run with my friend who is a Pally tank.

Test 1:
Dungeon: Epic Temple of Spiders
CW Setup: MoF Renegade / Oppressor Buffing / Debuffing Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 2
Dungeon: Valindra Tower
CW Setup: MoF Renegade / Oppressor Buffing / Debuffing Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 3
Dungeon: Castle Never
CW Setup: MoF Renegade / Oppressor Buffing / Debuffing Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 4:
Dungeon: Epic Temple of Spiders
CW Setup: SS Thaut /Renegade Damager Build
Dungeon Completion Time

Test 2
Dungeon: Valindra Tower
CW Setup: SS Thaut /Renegade Damager Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 3
Dungeon: Castle Never
CW Setup: SS Thaut /Renegade Damager Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

beckylunatic · March 2017

Depends how effective the rest of the party is. The most effective party is the one that uses the most/best buff synergies, but you can't expect that in PUGs.

oria1 · March 2017

In my opinion all you need to think is this. With an average debuff of 300-350% (you can do more in some cases) you can make the 2 dps do 2x-3x their damage so yes, the run will go a LOT faster and smoother with a MoF debuffer in the group. The clerics can give an awesome damage buff which works multiplicative with cw debuffs to further extend the synergy of the 2 classes.

Also keep in mind it makes even more sense in large group content (edemo, tiamat, esva, dragon runs, etc) cause Cw debuffs ( and most of the buffs) work for all, even outside the party.

On top of that you can bring control to assist the group (pretty much all mobs except elites and bosses can be controlled) and with a smart build you can have close to perma control. That allows the tank and cleric to focus on buff/dps for the trash mobs.

I have to note this also. There are MoF cws and then there are MoF CWs... just because one, will switch to mof renegade and use swath, doesn't mean that he/she became a good debuffer. Come to think about it that goes for all classes at some point.

If you like, pm me in game and we can do a run together to see for yourself.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer.

niadan · March 2017

Go to guides section and read up on the buff and debuff guides. Have your team maximize their builds with that information. CW MOF ( @thefabricant ) have been in some of the fastest server dungeon runs. I personally run SS Thaum with Sellsword and 200k HP...for tje luls.

mamalion1234 · March 2017

niadan said:
Go to guides section and read up on the buff and debuff guides. Have your team maximize their builds with that information. CW MOF ( @thefabricant ) have always been in the fastest server dungeon runs.

*Recorded fastest server dungeon runs

rjc9000 · March 2017

mebengalsfan#9264 said:
I stated this in another thread but after consideration I believe this topic needs its own thread for discussion.

This is a question to the experienced CW that have run both a full on damager builds and Buffer/Debuffing builds.

The question is, does the CW buff/debuff build the group enough to justify not running as pure CW damager?

Has anyone run a test like the one highlight below?

Group: GF (with ITF), DC (using BoB and AA), GWF, SW, and CW

Just curious if anyone tested this out to see how much of an impact a CW buffer/debuffer has on completion time in dungeons with a balanced group that already has a GF and a DC, which is what I normally see in dungeons. I rarely see any Paladins unless I run with my friend who is a Pally tank.

Test 1:
Dungeon: Epic Temple of Spiders
CW Setup: MoF Renegade / Oppressor Buffing / Debuffing Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 2
Dungeon: Valindra Tower
CW Setup: MoF Renegade / Oppressor Buffing / Debuffing Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 3
Dungeon: Castle Never
CW Setup: MoF Renegade / Oppressor Buffing / Debuffing Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 4:
Dungeon: Epic Temple of Spiders
CW Setup: SS Thaut /Renegade Damager Build
Dungeon Completion Time

Test 2
Dungeon: Valindra Tower
CW Setup: SS Thaut /Renegade Damager Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Test 3
Dungeon: Castle Never
CW Setup: SS Thaut /Renegade Damager Build
Dungeon Completion Time:

Get a Paladin with Aura of Courage. It is hilariously strong on the Proc Wizar- er, CW, to the point where it can make up a large, if not the largest chunk of a CW's damage.

Also, for the whole debuff thing, as becky and niadan have said, depends on your team's setup. A MoF might be superfluous if your team already has a variety of capped debuffs which puts your team at the cap.

It is totally possible to reach the debuff cap with no MoFs (ex: 3x OP Bane, 1x Thorn Ward, 5x unbugged Condeming Gaze, 1x Bear your Sins , 1x normal DG, 1x mark). You could make the argument that MoFs spread debuffs much easier/more reliable than other classes, but most mobs in most dungeons die so quick that reaching the debuff cap on mobs will only cause the mobs to melt a second or so faster.

Once your team hits the cap, you want to spam your defense debuffs (1x Dancing Shield + sword trio + Black Dragon Heart + Frost/Plaguefire spam) so you can have ridiculous debuff multipliers. And of course, we can't forget spamming buffs like ITF, CS, Longstrider's, duckonaplate, or EmpBtS.

niadan said:
Go to guides section and read up on the buff and debuff guides. Have your team maximize their builds with that information. CW MOF [I don't feel like mentioning Sharpie marker, since he's probably mad I pronounced him professional floor inspector] have always been in the fastest server dungeon runs.

Sharp is currently running a SS Thaum with his special gimmicks. His build is pretty effective at pumping out DPS...

Also, something interesting is that two of the fastest FBI clears were done without a CW.

Sharp speedran FBI once on his DC, with the main DPSer being a GWF (the team was GF: Sickan, OP: Prozo, GWF: WickedDuck, DCs: Michela and Sharp).

Currently, the team organized by @tom#6998 holds the record for the fastest FBI clear (unless a team has cleared FBI in under 14:11 when I wasn't paying attention). Natsu's speedrun also had 0 CWs in sight (the team was OP: Draco, SW: Natsu, HR: Aurelius the Awkward, DC: Gonzaid, GF: someone familiar).

I would assume that the CW is needed for an eventual eSP clear (mob city yo) and would be key in some lower tier dungeon speedruns (probably something like eGWD door to door clears).

niadan · March 2017

Edited my original comment. But do remember the question was about CW. For the record I have too much fun running a maxed out SS Thaum with 200k HP and a Sellsword. Even have Eye of Giant and leg flail snail to really freak peeps out when they see the attacking snail and a giant sized wiz.

beckylunatic · March 2017

I'd add that if you pug or solo a lot, you probably don't want to build a dedicated debuffer and sacrifice your personal DPS, because you'll just suffer for nothing. If you are always playing with unknown quantities, you can't count on there being enough effective players in a group for your buff/debuff to compensate for the DPS you could bring with a different build.

But, if you're trying to pug your way into high-end stuff like SVA, you're more likely to be given a spot if you're a buffer and not a dime-a-dozen DPS.

I have zero experience with playing a MoF, but still enjoy the compromise character of a Spellstorm Renegade.

mebengalsfan · March 2017

beckylunatic said:
I'd add that if you pug or solo a lot, you probably don't want to build a dedicated debuffer and sacrifice your personal DPS, because you'll just suffer for nothing. If you are always playing with unknown quantities, you can't count on there being enough effective players in a group for your buff/debuff to compensate for the DPS you could bring with a different build.

But, if you're trying to pug your way into high-end stuff like SVA, you're more likely to be given a spot if you're a buffer and not a dime-a-dozen DPS.

I have zero experience with playing a MoF, but still enjoy the compromise character of a Spellstorm Renegade.

I tend to pug quite a bit, my own choice though. I could join the alliance runs and I do when I am paying attention but normally I jump on do a run or two and pug them.

I run a buffing/debuffing/healing DC. I run a buffing/tanking/DPS GF. Running those characters along with my CW I see plenty of variety of players and damage they produce or don't produce.

Running on my tank in Shore and Kessell I ran into a few DC that did not do a single heal. They wanted to kick me because I went down. I thought the DC would at least use Astral Seal, but nothing. Due to that and not clicking my potion fast enough I went down. I did over 4 million in heals thanks to Fighter Recovery and using potions. DC had around 10K in heals.

I ran on my CW and you know who ended up as top healer, top in damage taken and top damager? My CW.

Seeing as I pug plenty I have seen a variety of players and simply wanted to build my CW to be ready for a variety of groups and is why I was asking the question around does buffing CW out perform a pure on DPS CW in groups for improving the overall group effectiveness.

niadan · March 2017

Again, in specialized group runs the answer is yes. In general, especially pug runs, no.

With that said, I do not like anything but melt face dps, with a dash of buff/debuff. So I run Thaum / Abyss and a Sellsword.

oria1 · March 2017

Debuffer works better with high damage groups. After all a 300% debuff on zero damage is still zero damage. Having said that and assuming that the players at least know the basics, a debuffer/controller in a t1/t2 is one of the best things that can happen to the group.

Speaking from personal experience I can make a group take the least amount of damage possible since i can perma control mobs in t1 and t2 (except elites but my shield can handle those) and my debuffs can make a 2k player act almost as a 4k one in terms of damage. So the run, does finish faster, and all people get to enjoy the dungeon, instead of having a "hdps" carry them.

I cant tell you how many times I heard people feeling happy for their 1st 1m+ Hit or doing the run smooth even if its not an optimal group or the fastest run around.

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

mamalion1234 · March 2017

WE can judge when dc get a rework and maybe and other classes. Immortality allow many things in other cases would be dangerous to use.Exaltation for example is a slow spell and need target would have place in non immortal party?
Knight challenge on gf?.

I believe the game need to return to be like mod 6 expect debuffing buffing actually you should have and tactic how to stay alive......................

mebengalsfan · October 2017

Bringing this topic back to the forefront. I wanted to check with you PC guys if the CW buffer is now a wanted commodity due to the changes in 12b? Also, does the CW buffer now provide more damage to the group over what we previously discussed?

I know since I started this topic the devs updated the game to have a hard cap at 300% for buffing/debuffing with diminishing returns starting at 200%.

With all of that stated, how are CW buffers fairing with the new update?

Using my initial post as a starting point, would a full preform group have better time with a CW buffer or with a CW DPS?

masteroga · October 2017

Not quite an exact test of what you're looking for...but I ran with the same group for 2 different runs (paladin, 2 clerics, gwf). One time I ran as a Renegade using critical conflagration & swath on trash, chilling presence and swath on bosses (switching from lightning to terror on bosses). Next run I was your standard spellstorm thaum/Op

We finished in almost the same amount of time. However first run the damage was like 1.4 Billion to my 0.7 Billion, and second run we had the same damage of 1 billion.

So if we were running a 3dps set up, logic would dictate even a half assed MoF renegade would result in a faster run

theraxin · November 2017

Renegade is not designed to run with only 1 more DPS (as double DC is being a standard on the high-end). It roughly only gives 15-20% damage bonus and CA, but with 1 more player around, your damage loss can negate everything you gave to the team.

For Mof Thaum with CC+Swath, I am more optimistic (but lazy for actual test, To9G is heavily lags even without ACT used in the background), but with only 1 more DPS being around, I can't really see more of an investment to worth it.

On my personal experience, changing back to SS thaum at Ras Nsi is always worths it, more bursty, so more reliably can clear out the defiant souls, which should be the main priority most of the time. Otherwise Mof Thaum and SS Thaum feels like the same there, but I feel more comfortable with the Mof.

mebengalsfan · November 2017

Ran some test. 1 DC, 1 GF, 1 GWF and 1 HR combat

Ran content from T1 up to FBI.

T1 and T2 content there was very little change in times between a buffer and pure on DPS.

In T3 content though the buffing build shined providing significant increase in group damage and allowing us to complete FBI faster with me as a buffer than going full on DPS.

I would state if you pug and want to boost the groups damage and have a high enough recover to keep Combustive Action debuff up, than buffer is the way to go as you may get some 7-10K players that will love your build and make them feel good about the damage they delivered.

In end game, if you cannot get a 2nd DC and see a CW buffer calling for FBI, MSPC, etc... grab them as they can help you complete content quicker.

The next test I need to run is 2DC vs. 1 DC and 1 CW run in FBI.

sangrine · November 2017

Remember, paingiver measures damage, not damage per second.
~~Paingiver counts over-damage. If you kill a monster with 1 HP, all damage will count on paingiver.~~
~~Burst builds are much better at doing over-damage, than DoT builds.~~

You dont have to be "full-on dps" or "full-on buff/debuff"
You can be a combination of buff/debuff, along with some dps.
You don't have to slot Combustive Action and spam dailies, if you dont want.
I personally do not enjoy spamming dailies.

Module 12b is about random dungeons/skirmishes with 3 dps and 1 tank and 1 healer.
With random players, a buff/debuff MoF Renegade can turn "zero's" into "hero's".
Remember that renegade buffs do benefit healer and tank too.
Healer can get more critical chance and more armor penetration.
Tank can get more healing, more critical chance, and more armor penetration.

masteroga · November 2017

Paingiver only accounts for the HP the enemy has, the exact opposite sanguine. If you hit an enemy for 12m and they have 1 HP, you only get 1 damage added to the chart

sangrine · November 2017

Thanks for the correction, masteroga.
Updated my comment.

niadan · November 2017

Usually the first to cut the cake, has a better chance at getting a bigger piece.

metalicum1 · November 2017

If you alone are able to make way over 100$ (up to 160-165% at times, but constantly at least 103% from CA, SW, Double RoE, enchant, companion) debuff, also some buff (chaotic fury somewhere between 1/3 - 4/7 uptime), plus some utility like nightmare wizardy. there i almost no question you should go that route over a pure DPS, even over AA cleric with the bonding change in 12B and the impact it has on powershare.

As Pure DPS, you loose quite a bit of debuff and buff for everyone. as a pure DPS you can technically do double RoE, Swath, not sure about performance of such Renegade x Thaum. Hard to say, hard to say.

The thing is you can play both and be absolutely fine, or even a hybrid of sorts. If it is not a meta party member that doesn't mean you can't play it super effectively.

mebengalsfan · November 2017

I played around a bit more with Oppressor/Renegade and Renegade / Oppressor builds. I like the full on Oppressor / Renegade build with control momentum over Renegade / Oppressor with Chaos Magic. It provides a more consistent damage buff to the group over chaos magic. Having Time Steal in mastery ensures I give the group combat advantage without Nightmare Wizardry. With this build, enemies I can freeze also allows me to help the group produce more damage.

I run this build with Critical Conflagration and Swath of Destruction. If my recovery was higher, 15K+ I would use combustive action. I run this build when the groups I am with are near the bottom IL to get into content. Similar to how I run my DC and my GF. My GF I will run my full on buffing build when the group clearly needs more damage buff. As for my DC, I run AC for players that have Bonding 10+ and for players running anything else I run my DO build.

CW - Full on Damager vs Buffing/Debuffing

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