1) All we do is buff 2) We do no dammage 3) healing is useless when teamates arent noobs.
You say we dont need dammage buff....... Guess what: even with 100% dammage buff we would still be the lowest dammage class.
The real problem here is that tr dammage output is soo high that buffing the tr = more dammage output than having another dammage class like CW for example. Also TR players prefer to be the only dammage dealing class in donjon because they can get better dammage self-buff since he have all the ennemies for himself.
1) Thats exactly what the class was made for. DC isn't a DPS nor a tank. It is a support class and a support class does heal and buff. If you want to play as DPS you need to play a different class.
2) Like I said a DC isn't a DPS. You can't combine DPS, tank and support in one class. If you want to play as DPS then play a GWF alt. (Sure you need DPS for leveling but I am talking about endgame groups). and btw I have seen some very very decent DPS DCs in tong so it is not true that DC doesn't deal any damage.
3) Healing is never useless. Basically healing is supporting your team. Same as preventing your group from damage and in being a support class DC is unbeatable.
and no, I don't play a DC but I have played this game since beta and I have seen all the up and downs from DC in dungeons. Back in M5 a DC could easily outdps my bis CW in elol and trust me, this is simply offending the community. A class should keep in its role. DC should do support. GWF should do damage. If a class can fit in every role then you simply don't need the other classes.
You seem to have built up some resentment toward other classes, specifically DCs, and I really don't see what that gets you
DCs primarily exists to help YOU, and yet you think its OK to call for nerfs because your epeen gets threatened by someone else doing a little extra damage? If you are getting the buffs and staying alive, the proper response is "Thank You"
Other than that, feel free to stand as far away from the boss and the DC as possible, and you won't get the buffs that you don't appreciate
If you truly have played the game since beta and this kind of garbage is the best you can come up with regarding how the game works, I don't really see the point in any further explanation other than you have no idea what you are talking about
> @adinosii said: > >In what game is, "tr dammage output is soo high" ? > > Well, a few years ago it was - TRs were masters of doing damage against single targets, which made PvP somewhat unbalanced. They were nerfed, but unfortunately in a way that significantly reduced their effectiveness in PvE. > >
I've played since Beta with a lengthy break (c.mod 5 to 9) and have had a TR since 2 weeks after launch. She was a main in mods 3 and 4 and hopefully again at some future date... hence my question above.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
First...I think for DC and pvp to work good deflect and DoT's needs to be addressed. It seems to me especially when playing on my MoF CW that players with even 20% deflect which isn't terribly high are deflecting more than 20% of attacks because of my DoTs that MoF uses like smolder. What's happening is instead of each DoT being viewed as one line of damage say as a Shadowtouched proc its being viewed as an encounter that divides it damage up over time but deflect on the backend seems to be counting it as if it were a Shadowtouched proc. So in essence players are getting much higher than 20% deflect rate when that's all they have after being DoT'ed. The same effect can come from righteous spec DC or even a Brand of the sun hit.
Next, and in continuing pvp....armor pen is gross without any sort of real diminishing return attached to it. I've seen GF's with 144% armor pen so anything I have as a defense not deflect value is trashed which it shouldn't be I don't think. With that I also think any sort of diminishing return should be most rewarding at mid range values i.e. a rank 7 as powerful as a current rank 10 and a rank 9 as powerful as a current rank 11.
Another thing that is a problem like you mentioned is being pushed around or smoke bomb dazed. I personally would like to see the control immunity recently brought to pvp be extended to stuns and dazes and be more hardcore than it is currently. It seems the control immunity is sketchy at best as I could cause a player to become frozen then push them back and put them in an entangling force all within seconds. Perhaps changing it so that once a control is used like a frozen then anything after cant be done for at least 10 seconds like I couldn't cause frozen on someone then a TR run up and drop a smoke bomb to keep them dazed after they come out of frozen state or even a GF run up and Bull charge them to punt them like a football until 10 seconds after frozen. As well I couldn't push them back after freezing them for 10 seconds. Let's face it no one likes being controlled into a 5 second death. CW would be most affected by this but CW does have powers which can be DoT's like conduit of ice, ray of enfeeble, and fanning the flame. Also, perhaps overlooking a few stacks of chill as a control would be helpful for CW though maintain 6 stacks of chill is a control.
As well in pvp dailies could be changed to have a 1 minute cooldown so as to prevent spamming of things like hallowed or tr's bloodbath.
Getting back to how to improve DC...buffing astral shield with deflect value instead of just defense would be good for pvp. As well increasing a DC ability to buff defense values for pve would be good also especially with more mobs doing harder core damage these days. So something like changing divine glow power point stacks from the current 2.5% damage resist buff to a 5% damage resist buff would be in order. Don't add deflect to it only astral shield. Give astral shield like a 2.5% deflect per power point stack attribute and that would be good for pvp maybe even pve. And change astral shield so that when its fully empowered it becomes a mobile astral shield defending each player wherever they go. Cause no one wants to stand in one small area.
Finally we come to insignia healing bonuses in pvp being what I think is an issue......first of all these healing bonuses are procing even if a control immunity is up which I don't think it should. Second there is a lot of healing going on from insignia healing bonuses and boons so much so it starting to look like lifesteal pre mod 6 did. Maybe changing that just in pvp so that only the currently equipped mount's insignia will work on pvp could be in order.
You seem to have built up some resentment toward other classes, specifically DCs, and I really don't see what that gets you
DCs primarily exists to help YOU, and yet you think its OK to call for nerfs because your epeen gets threatened by someone else doing a little extra damage? If you are getting the buffs and staying alive, the proper response is "Thank You"
Other than that, feel free to stand as far away from the boss and the DC as possible, and you won't get the buffs that you don't appreciate
If you truly have played the game since beta and this kind of garbage is the best you can come up with regarding how the game works, I don't really see the point in any further explanation other than you have no idea what you are talking about
I just try to stay as objective as I can. Sure a DC helps me but the class isn't balanced. Remember the time in Svardborg? Picking 4 DCs for the best group setup or 2 DCs for TONG like nowadays. This is not balanced. Every class should have the exact same chance to find a group. At the moment DC can provide insanely good buffs with both paragon paths, compared to other classes that barely have 1 strong paragon path or build for endgame.
For me it seems like you want to play a godlike op DC that is #1 DPS and the best support class in the game but that will never happen. Balancing a game always means nerfs and you can't stand the fact that this will happen to DCs. Begging for more buffs won't help
Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
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starheretic70Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 52Arc User
bla, bla, bla, bla.
all of it.
the devs dont even play the game. the mess with sandy's pants is another proof.
when and if they start playing from scratch, lvl 1, make it BIS and then do pve/pvp, then and only then, something will happen.
until then... all of this is pointless.
I'm not salty or mad, this game could be fun, but it's stupid.
astati... a PVE CW... clearly know more than me and everyone else on our main class and game weve been playing since mod 1.
I guess we are lucky he dont pvp, he would had kill everyone with his knowledge and skill without even breaking a sweat.
I guess we are lucky he dont play DC, every other DC in the game would look like noob compared to him.
I am sure he can overbuff, overdps, and overheal everyone everywhere in all situation with any builds any class. Its just that no one except him know how to play properlly.
He his soo good that even his summoned clones from weapon play better than everyone else.
What can we say, were only mere insects compare to him.
The dev. should just call him directly and ask him to fix the game.
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
astati... a PVE CW... clearly know more than me and everyone else on our main class and game weve been playing since mod 1.
I guess we are lucky he dont pvp, he would had kill everyone with his knowledge and skill without even breaking a sweat.
I guess we are lucky he dont play DC, every other DC in the game would look like noob compared to him.
I am sure he can overbuff, overdps, and overheal everyone everywhere in all situation with any builds any class. Its just that no one except him know how to play properlly.
He his soo good that even his summoned clones from weapon play better than everyone else.
What can we say, were only mere insects compare to him.
The dev. should just call him directly and ask him to fix the game.
You forgot to mention my invulnerability, invisibility and omniscience lol
You seem to have built up some resentment toward other classes, specifically DCs, and I really don't see what that gets you
DCs primarily exists to help YOU, and yet you think its OK to call for nerfs because your epeen gets threatened by someone else doing a little extra damage? If you are getting the buffs and staying alive, the proper response is "Thank You"
Other than that, feel free to stand as far away from the boss and the DC as possible, and you won't get the buffs that you don't appreciate
If you truly have played the game since beta and this kind of garbage is the best you can come up with regarding how the game works, I don't really see the point in any further explanation other than you have no idea what you are talking about
I just try to stay as objective as I can. Sure a DC helps me but the class isn't balanced. Remember the time in Svardborg? Picking 4 DCs for the best group setup or 2 DCs for TONG like nowadays. This is not balanced. Every class should have the exact same chance to find a group. At the moment DC can provide insanely good buffs with both paragon paths, compared to other classes that barely have 1 strong paragon path or build for endgame.
For me it seems like you want to play a godlike op DC that is #1 DPS and the best support class in the game but that will never happen. Balancing a game always means nerfs and you can't stand the fact that this will happen to DCs. Begging for more buffs won't help
You keep forgetting clerics do not set up requirements for the game we are playing. People who make this game and lead it , do.
You are not really objective. If you where objective you would have noticed what works with a cleric and what does not. How about those heals ?
An AC can not provide debuffs as a DO can. A DO can not provide the power share an AC can. If you played a cleric you would have noticed a difference.
We as clerics already had a nerf. Not 1 but a few . But apparently people like you tend to forget that.
You do not want a support class who can fend for themself. How much heals do you actually require while doing a dungeon ? Please....
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
As dc player, my 3rd fav char to play, dc need to buff party damage, damage resistance and apply a small heal over time(DG), if you u nerf all of that from dc class u will see party dps wipe, because heals dont reduce income damage or buff party dps damage/power. some of the most thankfull encounter/daily powers/atwills/class feature you should thank a dc for using in dungeon:
-astral seal -bless of battle - brand the sun - divine glow - astral shield(normal 4ticks, 40% dmg resistance buff) - break the spirit - forge fire - prophecie of doom - hastening light - Foresight - Terrifying Insight - hallowed ground - Annoited Champion - Bastion of health(when dc's are generous)
But why do you think the ac dc is still in a good place after the bondings change?
Because it is. Play -> it works -> go on. Despite the bonding nerf, the amount of shared power is still good: currently I can reach 154K (rk 13 bonding, 43k unbuffed power + assassin covenant + ... + ) which is adeguate for the end-game content. The rationale is simple: if your team mates have high rank bondings, power share still works, less than before, but it works. I can do Tong as I did it before, but it takes some minutes more: not a big issue imo. Given the latest changes, the real issue is that the end game power-share-based builds are VERY expensive: I built my toon over the years and the upgrading process is still feasible, but if you're in the mid-range area, spend some time assessing where you want to go . If you want to be effective immediately, go DO: easier to play, stable buffs, nice powers.
Overall I agree with @adinosii at least where PvE is concerned.
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL plus you have to put in a wee bit more effort in terms of play-style so it was reasonable that a high IL AC DC is the superior buffer. If a DO buffs better and more stable by just standing on the scenery like a tree (TI) and lazily painting a huge yellow circle every once in a while...that´s just not right.
So with the changes what do you do as an AC if you want to feel like it makes sense as the single dc in a party to be an AC and not a DO in combat that takes longer than a few seconds? I guess what I said before was in way nonsense though....the cooldown on bondings actually helps to offset the diminished power-share if you use both AA and HG? Start with AA and BOB for first bonding gift...2/3 of AA power-share (the part that went through companions) stays for the whole 30s duration, so HG next and then AA again in time for next bonding refresh and so on. Unless you miss a refresh window/companion chooses bad time to croak etc. I dunno...I just resent this cooldown because it is so counter-intuitive as opposed to the continuous refresh before and it´s not a mechanic you can easily keep track of at all. Well, anyways...no need to ponder on this too much because who knows what kind of nerfs will hit the dc soon...:P
So with the changes what do you do as an AC if you want to feel like it makes sense as the single dc in a party to be an AC and not a DO in combat that takes longer than a few seconds?
Honestly this is a non-question. The loadouts allow me to choose what I believe is better for that group in that dungeon when I'm the only DC. This is something every good DC does: inspect the team members, check their setup and then choose the appropriate DC configuration. Sometimes I change the weapon enchantment as well, just to say that it's not only a matter of AC vs DO. Recently I've done FBI as the only AC DC in the group: good time and no issues if the team knows how to play. In low level dungeons I switch DO, more DPS oriented. The decision to stop the 2 DCs meta is something that will affect the class deeply imo, but let's wait what kind of nerf hammer we will get.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL
I would not agree with the "very low" part, although I find it a bit silly when I see something like "LF1m T9G DO DC 15K+", as a 13K DO DC is pretty much equally useful as a 17K one.
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).
Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
Hoping for improvements...
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL
I would not agree with the "very low" part, although I find it a bit silly when I see something like "LF1m T9G DO DC 15K+", as a 13K DO DC is pretty much equally useful as a 17K one.
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).
Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
What you mentioned there is the reason so many are screaming bloody murder at the mere mention of nerfing AC (I think they should not just nerf but entirely delete this power sharing nonsense). They have invested so much in tweaking out every last point of power instead of trying to created a well balanced stats wise class, they are playing a one trick pony which is always a dangerous path to follow. Just like they had to nerf the immortal bubbledin party meta, the AC needs the same treatment, and nobody can have any reasonable objections to this because this was not how the game was intended to be played.
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL
I would not agree with the "very low" part, although I find it a bit silly when I see something like "LF1m T9G DO DC 15K+", as a 13K DO DC is pretty much equally useful as a 17K one.
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).
Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
What you mentioned there is the reason so many are screaming bloody murder at the mere mention of nerfing AC (I think they should not just nerf but entirely delete this power sharing nonsense). They have invested so much in tweaking out every last point of power instead of trying to created a well balanced stats wise class, they are playing a one trick pony which is always a dangerous path to follow. Just like they had to nerf the immortal bubbledin party meta, the AC needs the same treatment, and nobody can have any reasonable objections to this because this was not how the game was intended to be played.
AC AA was aready nerfed. Just like the bubble was .
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL
I would not agree with the "very low" part, although I find it a bit silly when I see something like "LF1m T9G DO DC 15K+", as a 13K DO DC is pretty much equally useful as a 17K one.
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).
Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
I wouldn't say a 13K DO is near equal to a 17K one. At 13K you may have reached a 100% crit chance but you certainly don't have 100% crit chance and the recovery to perma HG and have the armor pen required for the hardest content. Some concessions have to be made and usually its on the recovery side. I know my build is a bit different because I'm running Armor Pen > Crit > Recovery > Power and some DO's would switch the recovery and power priority for more dps (or buff through Weapons of Light).
Also the weapon enchant on DO and AC are pretty different. For DO I use dread because your already stacking crit for fire of the gods and it contributes directly to healing. Dread is almost useless on a good AC build because of low crit chance.
One of the key challenges for a high end AC is they have in theory already switched their gear/enchants from the Armor Pen/Crit configuration to a Power/Recovery configuration. The transition is expensive in itself as you loose at least 10% of your enchant value to AH tax and then you have to level new artifacts and farm new gear. So while the expense of the two may be the same, the fact the AC has already paid the premium to modify their build is probably the bigger challenge.
In any regard it seems that having a loadout for AC/Virt (power share and haste) and DO/Right (dps and buff/debuff) is prudent. I think the most vitriol from the DC community comes from commitment to certain powers. AC's love their AA, DO's love their BotS, they are both deal breakers for the respective fan boys... it's also why I still haven't built that AC loadout, the short time I ran it I felt lots without BotS.
Maybe the real solution is still to allow a Right DC to queue as DPS and Virt/Faith to queue as healer. Let's be honest, that's what's happening anyhow.
One of the key challenges for a high end AC is they have in theory already switched their gear/enchants from the Armor Pen/Crit configuration to a Power/Recovery configuration.
Def correct. My DO loadout is a hard compromise, because I don't want to spend again. I rely on the armpen stronghold boon and some minor changes to increase my crit chance (+62% at the best): that's enough for the daily quests but I wouldn't say that it's optimal.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
So with the changes what do you do as an AC if you want to feel like it makes sense as the single dc in a party to be an AC and not a DO in combat that takes longer than a few seconds?
Honestly this is a non-question. The loadouts allow me to choose what I believe is better for that group in that dungeon when I'm the only DC. This is something every good DC does: inspect the team members, check their setup and then choose the appropriate DC configuration. Sometimes I change the weapon enchantment as well, just to say that it's not only a matter of AC vs DO. Recently I've done FBI as the only AC DC in the group: good time and no issues if the team knows how to play. In low level dungeons I switch DO, more DPS oriented. The decision to stop the 2 DCs meta is something that will affect the class deeply imo, but let's wait what kind of nerf hammer we will get.
Yah, I have a DO load-out as well and do swap frequently...and not only for tong (where I´ve been DO more often than AC since there seem to be way more committed high IL AC´s so I always have to swap-.-). If you think about it it is UNBelieveABLE they didn´t introduce the load-outs feature before...it´s so awesome. My riDO looks like my riAC in disguise though (no major gear change - I really can´t make that happen, I have a little cw, too- it´s just too much). But I realize I didn´t make clear at all what I meant to ask. So erm...as the single DC in a group doing anything from FBI upwards what do you do as an AC to make you feel good now?:) If I just keep up AA and BoB - unless I have anything from close to 50k unbuffed power upwards (I really don´t) then what I´m doing seems to be way worse more often than not than what I´d do more easily as a DO with HG and TI after the bondings change. This might be different if you use both AA and HG as described above. But then again that might get messed up in practice due to the cooldown. That´s what I wanted to hear some feedback on from other dc´s. But of course we agree we have to wait until the nerf bat hits. There really is no way at all to know what they´re going to do.
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL
I would not agree with the "very low" part, although I find it a bit silly when I see something like "LF1m T9G DO DC 15K+", as a 13K DO DC is pretty much equally useful as a 17K one.
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).
Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
Yes, that is what I meant with my very unspecified "very low". But the regular AC DC will not have to swap a single thing to be a 100% effective DO in terms of buff/debuff. They will lack the additional dps addition of a typical DO build but other than that.... That is what I actually liked about the DO -> for a new player, probably without a GH20 guild power boon, too, it offers a chance to get into the latest content more easily...getting a trans debuff enchant and companion and enough recovery for perma HG isn´t something you do overnight, too, but it is achievable much more quickly than a valid AC build.
What you mentioned there is the reason so many are screaming bloody murder at the mere mention of nerfing AC (I think they should not just nerf but entirely delete this power sharing nonsense). They have invested so much in tweaking out every last point of power instead of trying to created a well balanced stats wise class, they are playing a one trick pony which is always a dangerous path to follow. Just like they had to nerf the immortal bubbledin party meta, the AC needs the same treatment, and nobody can have any reasonable objections to this because this was not how the game was intended to be played.
Power-sharing has nothing whatsoever to do with cheesy things like the former perma bubble or the formerly cheesy AA granting damage immunity .That was nerfed and good riddance. The 2 dc thing (for tong mainly) is bad but why would anyone advertise to solve the problem by just deleting one paragon and who cares if hordes of players like it and have invested a lot into building their toon for it?
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Power-sharing has nothing whatsoever to do with cheesy things
If looks like cheese, acts like cheese, stinks like cheese - it's probably cheese. Power share is cheesy, the developers have created all sorts of potions, artifacts, enchants, companions, etc, that lets one get extra power, these tend to be in the range of 500-2000 or so, then there is another game feature that lets one suddenly get 100,000 or so extra power, thats cheese, an extra strong smelling cheese.
Post edited by clericalist on
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Power sharing is not cheesy, I like the mechanics of it (in theory, I just don't enjoy the role). The positioning requirements is a nice touch. Although I much more prefer synergies so you change what your doing based on group composition like we had with GF. Even the bubble was kind of interesting as long as it was reliant on haste to get near perma. However, the devs seem to dislike synergies (maybe its more complex to program or calculate) but it seems so many of these have been striped from the game for much simpler play
Power-sharing has nothing whatsoever to do with cheesy things
If looks like cheese, acts like cheese, stinks like cheese - it's probably cheese. Power share is cheesy, the developers have created all sorts of potions, artifacts, enchants, companions, etc, that lets one get extra power, these tend to be in the range of 500-2000 or so, then there is another game feature that lets one suddenly get 100,000 or so extra power, thats cheese, an extra strong smelling cheese.
Maybe you should try to educate yourself on how power share actually works/how powerful it is in terms of damage increase. Then you wouldn´t write something cheesy like that...:P you don´t complain there´s no potion that is so powerful that it entirely replaces a well built and played tank or any other class well built and played?
Post edited by superent666 on
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
after the bonding nerfs, my dc max proc power(with aa) dropped from 112k power(mod 12) to max proc 79k power(12b) on a dungeon thats how they are fixing the so claimed power share, im not sure if i will get back to 112k power max proc on dungeons if bondings get to r14, i have a feeling they ninja nerfed buff/power no longer proc from buffed power mounts insignia bonus and companion gift, if u dont like dc power sharing, then start bossting your dps char power right away once power share is gone ur damage will drop for sure.
after the bonding nerfs, my dc max proc power(with aa) dropped from 112k power(mod 12) to max proc 79k power(12b) on a dungeon thats how they are fixing the so claimed power share, im not sure if i will get back to 112k power max proc on dungeons if bondings get to r14, i have a feeling they ninja nerfed buff/power no longer proc from buffed power mounts insignia bonus and companion gift, if u dont like dc power sharing, then start bossting your dps char power right away once power share is gone ur damage will drop for sure.
Just see it positive. CWs have a feat that share 3% of our stats to the group so I think almost 80k power to your group is quite good
Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
after the bonding nerfs, my dc max proc power(with aa) dropped from 112k power(mod 12) to max proc 79k power(12b) on a dungeon thats how they are fixing the so claimed power share, im not sure if i will get back to 112k power max proc on dungeons if bondings get to r14, i have a feeling they ninja nerfed buff/power no longer proc from buffed power mounts insignia bonus and companion gift, if u dont like dc power sharing, then start bossting your dps char power right away once power share is gone ur damage will drop for sure.
Just see it positive. CWs have a feat that share 3% of our stats to the group so I think almost 80k power to your group is quite good
He's not sharing 80k, he's saying that what he gets buffed, buffed is not what's shared and only a portion of that gets shared. That in turn gets cycled through the bonding machine where it gets doubled (well 195% assuming R14s which is still very rare in the game).
If you are one of the two CWs in the game that actually use prestidigitation (almost all are use spellcaster) then you do the same thing, but your doing 3% of power, crit, arp, recovery, defense, deflect and movement. So in a sence your giving 3*7 stats for 21%. This now gets shoved through the bonding machine so you give additional 42%, for a total of 63% stats shared with constant up time.
Since DC is only sharing one stat but its BoB 15%, WOL 10% if within 30' so not 100% uptime, and AA for 33% but daily dependent so not 100% up time. So in perfect conditions you could get up to 58% of power. Run that through the bonding machine and its another 116% for a total of 174%.
So what's the difference? CW can give a 63% constant upgrade by committing just 3 feat points across all teammates and it requires no special build, no powers, they just have to stand at the fire.
In contrast DC has to choose a specific paragon, then split points across 2 paragons (picking some feats they don't even need) and commit points to 2 powers. Then they have to position themselves within 30' of all the teammates and all companions while using specific skills constantly (they need 20K+ recovery to get even remotely close to perma and many rely on special mounts and artifacts to accomplish it) to get 174%. If @arcanjo86 had R14s, no power on his companion already (gear, enchants, etc), and no power from sources that don't transfer power he at best is transfering around 17K power which is getting pushed through the bonding machine to give him a total of 50K... on a target dummy.
Why do you think there are so many DO's out there? Because we may provide less buffs but we can do it without committing our life (all our builds, our rotations, our gear) to one mechanic.
Sounds like the CWs are the lucky ones in this scenario and yet most CWs don't take this mechanic which can give 63% to every person and companion in the party.
*** don't even consider that most of those stats are more valuable than power, specifically crit, armor pen, recovery, and defense (which can get pushed through the GWF machine and converted to power).
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I have mentioned my suggestions for how to "solve" the 2 DC "problem", but a little repetition does not hurt (much).
Make people not necessarily want to take 2 DCs by giving them other equally good alternatives. This could be done by fixing TRs and SWs to allow them to have builds that would provide significant buffs/debuffs (at the cost of personal DPS). Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen, as the devs do not like the idea of 5-man groups having 1 DPS and 4 buffers, as that would lead to the problem of having too many DPSers that cannot get into a group because of a shortage of buffers.
Reward people for making more varied groups - the most simple suggestion is a "rainbow buff" - any 5-man group with players of 5 different classes will get a "+x% to outgoing damage and -y% to incoming damage". That's all - this would discourage any groups with more than one player of a particular class.
Hoping for improvements...
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I love the rainbow buffs idea. Another option mentioned on a different forum is to increase the rewards for running traditional parties. I've had no issues running RQ Skirm, and RQ Epic Dungeons (I always volunteer to leave if we get msp or fbi so I get the penalty instead of my group). But there rewards for running RQ Hero's Accord is so far off base that no one with a brain runs it. You can get better rewards doing almost anything else with the extra time it would take to run tong in a traditional group over running private queue with the meta
Just see it positive. CWs have a feat that share 3% of our stats to the group so I think almost 80k power to your group is quite good
Renegade Control Wizards have another feat which is one of the biggest buffs in the game. https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Chaos_Magic Chaos Magic applies one of three buffs to its owner and allies within 50': Chaotic Growth - Heal yourself for 250% weapon damage every .5 seconds for 10 seconds. Chaotic Nexus - You gain 30% additional Armor Penetration and Critical Chance for 10 seconds. Chaotic Fury - You gain 30% additional Damage and 10% additional Life Steal for 10 seconds.
Every time I see a low item level SpellStorm Thaum/Oppressor CW, it boggles my mind and makes me want to rage quit the dungeon.
Astral shield down to 8 seconds was a good change and the hallowed ground since is a powerfull buff is the reason it has a cooldown.
Both problems you solve them adding extra recovery.
Terrifying Insight and the paladin's auras need an adjustment too so the player to actually do something to buff his mates and not just standing like a statue.
Yes, it is expensive to build a high end AC as opposed to a DO buff/debuff who can be efficient at very low IL
I would not agree with the "very low" part, although I find it a bit silly when I see something like "LF1m T9G DO DC 15K+", as a 13K DO DC is pretty much equally useful as a 17K one.
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).
Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
Not completely true. A 17K DC would have more power and even with the base 10% power sharing that a DO should be using that 17K can boost a R12 bonding companion damage up quite a bit more than one at 13K. It also depends how that 17K DC is build. Is that 17K DC built to maximize his or her buffing capability by going full Radiant R12 or is the DC more DPS built and using Brutals for an increase in critical chance? These are things that can impact builds and the effectiveness of a DC regardless if he is 13K or 17K IL.
I have seen some 17K that do not use Radiants but instead use Azure to maximize their critical chance for max damage, similar to how some DPS are built.
IMO if you play a DC or OP all offensive slots should be Radiant to get maximum power for power sharing.
This game though is designed to allow us to play the game as we like; therefore players can use whatever enchantment they want and some forgo the buffing path for DPS.
Just see it positive. CWs have a feat that share 3% of our stats to the group so I think almost 80k power to your group is quite good
Renegade Control Wizards have another feat which is one of the biggest buffs in the game. https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Chaos_Magic Chaos Magic applies one of three buffs to its owner and allies within 50': Chaotic Growth - Heal yourself for 250% weapon damage every .5 seconds for 10 seconds. Chaotic Nexus - You gain 30% additional Armor Penetration and Critical Chance for 10 seconds. Chaotic Fury - You gain 30% additional Damage and 10% additional Life Steal for 10 seconds.
Every time I see a low item level SpellStorm Thaum/Oppressor CW, it boggles my mind and makes me want to rage quit the dungeon.
I like where you are going with your thought here, but I rather see a MoF Oppressor / Renegade build using Steal Time on Mastery to provide the group Control Momentum and Combat Advantage using 1 Encounter; the other encounter I use to keep it up is Icy Terrain. You cannot disagree that using one encounter every at 6 seconds for a 5% damage buff is more consistent than relying on Chaos Magic to provide Chaotic Fury and that is a 33% chance every 10 seconds.
Roughly once every 30 seconds you will process Chaotic Fury. During the times you do not, you are not getting that 30% damage buff. With Control Momentum you are more than likely always getting a 5% damage buff.
I listed MoF due to Swath and Combustive action for additional buffing. Though, slotting Combustive without 20K range in recovery can actually hurt a group if you don't have enough recovery to ensure 100% up time for Combustive action debuff. I recommend using Critical Conflag as it does offer the ability to add smolder on critical hits. I play my CW as a MoF Oppressor and use Critical Conflag to ensure I can keep smolder on targets for the 20% damage buff that Swath provides since I have a 100% critical chance.
The other bonus you mention with 3% stat sharing is not just power but also other offensive stats; this feat can make a weaker group stronger if the CW stats are able to buff the group stats high enough to impact each character overall damage, which they are doing already with their personals and when using Steal Time as an Oppressor/Renegade build.
There are more classes than a DC that can buff a group. I just illustrated how my CW can provide almost a constant 100% up time on a 25% damage buff to a team.
This is the wrong place to discuss which CW buffs/debuffs are best. I mentioned Chaos Magic just to show that CW has powerful buffs (compared to clerics).
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isaintify1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 414Arc User
About the whole Divine Glow thing being buffed... I am 11.9 and my divine glow can hit 200ks. I do not think it needs a buff in damage. While I am at it DCs do not really need very many changes. The other classes in this game are in a lot more dire situation than the DC. Keep in mind everyone elses class and their issues.
Comments
DCs primarily exists to help YOU, and yet you think its OK to call for nerfs because your epeen gets threatened by someone else doing a little extra damage? If you are getting the buffs and staying alive, the proper response is "Thank You"
Other than that, feel free to stand as far away from the boss and the DC as possible, and you won't get the buffs that you don't appreciate
If you truly have played the game since beta and this kind of garbage is the best you can come up with regarding how the game works, I don't really see the point in any further explanation other than you have no idea what you are talking about
> >In what game is, "tr dammage output is soo high" ?
>
> Well, a few years ago it was - TRs were masters of doing damage against single targets, which made PvP somewhat unbalanced. They were nerfed, but unfortunately in a way that significantly reduced their effectiveness in PvE.
>
>
I've played since Beta with a lengthy break (c.mod 5 to 9) and have had a TR since 2 weeks after launch. She was a main in mods 3 and 4 and hopefully again at some future date... hence my question above.
Next, and in continuing pvp....armor pen is gross without any sort of real diminishing return attached to it. I've seen GF's with 144% armor pen so anything I have as a defense not deflect value is trashed which it shouldn't be I don't think. With that I also think any sort of diminishing return should be most rewarding at mid range values i.e. a rank 7 as powerful as a current rank 10 and a rank 9 as powerful as a current rank 11.
Another thing that is a problem like you mentioned is being pushed around or smoke bomb dazed. I personally would like to see the control immunity recently brought to pvp be extended to stuns and dazes and be more hardcore than it is currently. It seems the control immunity is sketchy at best as I could cause a player to become frozen then push them back and put them in an entangling force all within seconds. Perhaps changing it so that once a control is used like a frozen then anything after cant be done for at least 10 seconds like I couldn't cause frozen on someone then a TR run up and drop a smoke bomb to keep them dazed after they come out of frozen state or even a GF run up and Bull charge them to punt them like a football until 10 seconds after frozen. As well I couldn't push them back after freezing them for 10 seconds. Let's face it no one likes being controlled into a 5 second death. CW would be most affected by this but CW does have powers which can be DoT's like conduit of ice, ray of enfeeble, and fanning the flame. Also, perhaps overlooking a few stacks of chill as a control would be helpful for CW though maintain 6 stacks of chill is a control.
As well in pvp dailies could be changed to have a 1 minute cooldown so as to prevent spamming of things like hallowed or tr's bloodbath.
Getting back to how to improve DC...buffing astral shield with deflect value instead of just defense would be good for pvp. As well increasing a DC ability to buff defense values for pve would be good also especially with more mobs doing harder core damage these days. So something like changing divine glow power point stacks from the current 2.5% damage resist buff to a 5% damage resist buff would be in order. Don't add deflect to it only astral shield. Give astral shield like a 2.5% deflect per power point stack attribute and that would be good for pvp maybe even pve. And change astral shield so that when its fully empowered it becomes a mobile astral shield defending each player wherever they go. Cause no one wants to stand in one small area.
Finally we come to insignia healing bonuses in pvp being what I think is an issue......first of all these healing bonuses are procing even if a control immunity is up which I don't think it should. Second there is a lot of healing going on from insignia healing bonuses and boons so much so it starting to look like lifesteal pre mod 6 did. Maybe changing that just in pvp so that only the currently equipped mount's insignia will work on pvp could be in order.
For me it seems like you want to play a godlike op DC that is #1 DPS and the best support class in the game but that will never happen. Balancing a game always means nerfs and you can't stand the fact that this will happen to DCs. Begging for more buffs won't help
all of it.
the devs dont even play the game. the mess with sandy's pants is another proof.
when and if they start playing from scratch, lvl 1, make it BIS and then do pve/pvp, then and only then, something will happen.
until then... all of this is pointless.
I'm not salty or mad, this game could be fun, but it's stupid.
I guess we are lucky he dont pvp, he would had kill everyone with his knowledge and skill without even breaking a sweat.
I guess we are lucky he dont play DC, every other DC in the game would look like noob compared to him.
I am sure he can overbuff, overdps, and overheal everyone everywhere in all situation with any builds any class. Its just that no one except him know how to play properlly.
He his soo good that even his summoned clones from weapon play better than everyone else.
What can we say, were only mere insects compare to him.
The dev. should just call him directly and ask him to fix the game.
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
People who make this game and lead it , do.
You are not really objective. If you where objective you would have noticed what works with a cleric and what does not.
How about those heals ?
An AC can not provide debuffs as a DO can.
A DO can not provide the power share an AC can.
If you played a cleric you would have noticed a difference.
We as clerics already had a nerf. Not 1 but a few .
But apparently people like you tend to forget that.
You do not want a support class who can fend for themself.
How much heals do you actually require while doing a dungeon ?
Please....
some of the most thankfull encounter/daily powers/atwills/class feature you should thank a dc for using in dungeon:
-astral seal
-bless of battle
- brand the sun
- divine glow
- astral shield(normal 4ticks, 40% dmg resistance buff)
- break the spirit
- forge fire
- prophecie of doom
- hastening light
- Foresight
- Terrifying Insight
- hallowed ground
- Annoited Champion
- Bastion of health(when dc's are generous)
have to put in a wee bit more effort in terms of play-style so it was reasonable that a high IL AC DC is the superior buffer.
If a DO buffs better and more stable by just standing on the scenery like a tree (TI) and lazily painting a huge yellow circle every
once in a while...that´s just not right.
So with the changes what do you do as an AC if you want to feel like it makes sense as the single dc in a party to be an AC and
not a DO in combat that takes longer than a few seconds?
I guess what I said before was in way nonsense though....the cooldown on bondings actually helps to offset the diminished power-share if you use both AA and HG?
Start with AA and BOB for first bonding gift...2/3 of AA power-share (the part that went through companions) stays for the whole 30s duration, so HG next and then AA again in time for next bonding refresh and so on. Unless you miss a refresh window/companion chooses bad time to croak etc.
I dunno...I just resent this cooldown because it is so counter-intuitive as opposed to the continuous refresh before and it´s not a mechanic you can easily keep track of at all.
Well, anyways...no need to ponder on this too much because who knows what kind of nerfs will hit the dc soon...:P
Recently I've done FBI as the only AC DC in the group: good time and no issues if the team knows how to play. In low level dungeons I switch DO, more DPS oriented.
The decision to stop the 2 DCs meta is something that will affect the class deeply imo, but let's wait what kind of nerf hammer we will get.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
However, "very low" does not cut it - after all, the DO DC must
- ... have a good debuff weapon enchant (typically Trans Dread or Frost) - expensive
- ... have a good debuff companion.- expensive
- ... have enough Recovery to keep HG up 100% - not free
- ... have stats and gear that are good enough for decent survivability - not free
- ... slot Terrifying Insight - well, that's free.
The AC DC on the other hand needs to be almost exclusively focused on a single stat - Power. This means a more narrow selection of gear and on enchants in offensive slots. (But also the same weapon and companion requirements as the DO has).Bottom line is that it is more expensive to gear up an AC DC than a DO one - and if you want to be able to switch between AC and DO, you need essentially two sets of armor, artifacts, rings and other gear.
Also the weapon enchant on DO and AC are pretty different. For DO I use dread because your already stacking crit for fire of the gods and it contributes directly to healing. Dread is almost useless on a good AC build because of low crit chance.
One of the key challenges for a high end AC is they have in theory already switched their gear/enchants from the Armor Pen/Crit configuration to a Power/Recovery configuration. The transition is expensive in itself as you loose at least 10% of your enchant value to AH tax and then you have to level new artifacts and farm new gear. So while the expense of the two may be the same, the fact the AC has already paid the premium to modify their build is probably the bigger challenge.
In any regard it seems that having a loadout for AC/Virt (power share and haste) and DO/Right (dps and buff/debuff) is prudent. I think the most vitriol from the DC community comes from commitment to certain powers. AC's love their AA, DO's love their BotS, they are both deal breakers for the respective fan boys... it's also why I still haven't built that AC loadout, the short time I ran it I felt lots without BotS.
Maybe the real solution is still to allow a Right DC to queue as DPS and Virt/Faith to queue as healer. Let's be honest, that's what's happening anyhow.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
If you think about it it is UNBelieveABLE they didn´t introduce the load-outs feature before...it´s so awesome. My riDO looks like my riAC in disguise though (no major gear change - I really can´t make that happen, I have a little cw, too- it´s just too much). But I realize I didn´t make clear at all what I meant to ask.
So erm...as the single DC in a group doing anything from FBI upwards what do you do as an AC to make you feel good now?:)
If I just keep up AA and BoB - unless I have anything from close to 50k unbuffed power upwards (I really don´t) then what I´m doing seems to be way worse more often than not than what I´d do more easily as a DO with HG and TI after the bondings change. This might be different if you use both AA and HG as described above. But then again that might get messed up in practice due to the cooldown. That´s what I wanted to hear some feedback on from other dc´s.
But of course we agree we have to wait until the nerf bat hits. There really is no way at all to know what they´re going to do. Yes, that is what I meant with my very unspecified "very low". But the regular AC DC will not have to swap a single thing to be a 100% effective DO in terms of buff/debuff. They will lack the additional dps addition of a typical DO build but other than that....
That is what I actually liked about the DO -> for a new player, probably without a GH20 guild power boon, too, it offers a chance to get into the latest content more easily...getting a trans debuff enchant and companion and enough recovery for perma HG isn´t something you do overnight, too, but it is achievable much more quickly than a valid AC build. Power-sharing has nothing whatsoever to do with cheesy things like the former perma bubble or the formerly cheesy AA granting damage immunity .That was nerfed and good riddance. The 2 dc thing (for tong mainly) is bad but why would anyone advertise to solve the problem by just deleting one paragon and who cares if hordes of players like it and have invested a lot into building their toon for it?
If you are one of the two CWs in the game that actually use prestidigitation (almost all are use spellcaster) then you do the same thing, but your doing 3% of power, crit, arp, recovery, defense, deflect and movement. So in a sence your giving 3*7 stats for 21%. This now gets shoved through the bonding machine so you give additional 42%, for a total of 63% stats shared with constant up time.
Since DC is only sharing one stat but its BoB 15%, WOL 10% if within 30' so not 100% uptime, and AA for 33% but daily dependent so not 100% up time. So in perfect conditions you could get up to 58% of power. Run that through the bonding machine and its another 116% for a total of 174%.
So what's the difference? CW can give a 63% constant upgrade by committing just 3 feat points across all teammates and it requires no special build, no powers, they just have to stand at the fire.
In contrast DC has to choose a specific paragon, then split points across 2 paragons (picking some feats they don't even need) and commit points to 2 powers. Then they have to position themselves within 30' of all the teammates and all companions while using specific skills constantly (they need 20K+ recovery to get even remotely close to perma and many rely on special mounts and artifacts to accomplish it) to get 174%. If @arcanjo86 had R14s, no power on his companion already (gear, enchants, etc), and no power from sources that don't transfer power he at best is transfering around 17K power which is getting pushed through the bonding machine to give him a total of 50K... on a target dummy.
Why do you think there are so many DO's out there? Because we may provide less buffs but we can do it without committing our life (all our builds, our rotations, our gear) to one mechanic.
Sounds like the CWs are the lucky ones in this scenario and yet most CWs don't take this mechanic which can give 63% to every person and companion in the party.
*** don't even consider that most of those stats are more valuable than power, specifically crit, armor pen, recovery, and defense (which can get pushed through the GWF machine and converted to power).
https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Chaos_Magic
Chaos Magic applies one of three buffs to its owner and allies within 50':
Chaotic Growth - Heal yourself for 250% weapon damage every .5 seconds for 10 seconds.
Chaotic Nexus - You gain 30% additional Armor Penetration and Critical Chance for 10 seconds.
Chaotic Fury - You gain 30% additional Damage and 10% additional Life Steal for 10 seconds.
Every time I see a low item level SpellStorm Thaum/Oppressor CW, it boggles my mind and makes me want to rage quit the dungeon.
I have seen some 17K that do not use Radiants but instead use Azure to maximize their critical chance for max damage, similar to how some DPS are built.
IMO if you play a DC or OP all offensive slots should be Radiant to get maximum power for power sharing.
This game though is designed to allow us to play the game as we like; therefore players can use whatever enchantment they want and some forgo the buffing path for DPS.
Roughly once every 30 seconds you will process Chaotic Fury. During the times you do not, you are not getting that 30% damage buff. With Control Momentum you are more than likely always getting a 5% damage buff.
I listed MoF due to Swath and Combustive action for additional buffing. Though, slotting Combustive without 20K range in recovery can actually hurt a group if you don't have enough recovery to ensure 100% up time for Combustive action debuff. I recommend using Critical Conflag as it does offer the ability to add smolder on critical hits. I play my CW as a MoF Oppressor and use Critical Conflag to ensure I can keep smolder on targets for the 20% damage buff that Swath provides since I have a 100% critical chance.
The other bonus you mention with 3% stat sharing is not just power but also other offensive stats; this feat can make a weaker group stronger if the CW stats are able to buff the group stats high enough to impact each character overall damage, which they are doing already with their personals and when using Steal Time as an Oppressor/Renegade build.
There are more classes than a DC that can buff a group. I just illustrated how my CW can provide almost a constant 100% up time on a 25% damage buff to a team.