So what is being done to help with class discrimination in Tong groups

bobby4700
bobby4700 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 179 Arc User
Seems only class " s that are releavent are GWF GF OP Cleric i play HR as a main and at 15k+ i still cant find tong groups unless guildies feel sorry for me. anyone else with this problem?
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Comments

  • oldbaldyone
    oldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    If you have issues finding a group, why not make a T9G team yourself?

    You're always guranteed a spot in your own groups...

    Pretty much this, though I don't seem to have huge issues as an HR. The thing about TONG is that for most groups (MOST, go away you uber freaks lol) are going to want an OP, 2 DCs and a very high DPS that is immune to stuns (IE a GWF 14k+). Basic math says this leaves 1 spot for HR/CW/SW/TR/GF.....not a very good situation.

    Devs have said they want to move away from the 2 DC model (which probably means nerfing DCs in some way), and the nerfs coming on 10/24 are going to make things VERY interesting to say the least. I plan on getting seals of the brave before then and being done with it.
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,420 Arc User
    Removing 1 DC (Anointed Champion) will more likely just open the door for MoF CW, HR w/ Longstrider or even HB SW (Tempt or even Fury can still provide buffs). 12.5 bonding nerf is going to make Anointed Army less useful and mod 13 will likely further reduce the effect of stacking DCs in some undisclosed way. This will just open the door to some DPS based support build.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • lazaroth666
    lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User

    ...and a very high DPS that is immune to stuns (IE a GWF 14k+).Basic math says this leaves 1 spot for HR/CW/SW/TR/GF.....not a very good situation.

    GF can be perma immune to disabling effects thanks to Villain's Menace. When I'm running ToNG with mine, it is usually the main DPSer.
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  • fastrean1
    fastrean1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 25 Arc User
    My main is 14k devoted paladin, i can't find a party to tong or even fbi :'(

    Other post said the current dungeon one shot machine is aimming for player's self heal via lifesteal to making them too tanky. And they can't nerf lifsteal that some class may not able to complete the solo content. If that so, why not just add a lifesteal nerf debuff in dungeon....Instead making pure healing class useless
  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User


    GF can be perma immune to disabling effects thanks to Villain's Menace. When I'm running ToNG with mine, it is usually the main DPSer.

    If you got an usual group and a OP as tank a GF can be a monster DPS ^^. I know some of them, but i dont have any problems to find a tong group with my GWF.
    A little advice for the op:
    Build your own tong group.

  • jonkoca
    jonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Finished with tong now, but as an HR, never really had any problem as main dps. Gwfs are a good choice too ofc. But not essential. You can get away with 2 dps but a good OP and 2 DCs were pretty much the only option.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    The first boss has a timer , on one of the keys, HP boost, that HP boost helps you survive while you Leroy Jenkins every green orb you see, HP boost can run out and the person trying to prevent the rest of the team DYING, dies.

    When he / she / Apache helicopter dies, everyone dies.

    The third boss has a timer on defiant souls.
    If you do not kill them fast enough , you die in the middle of the dungeon.

    There is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.
    Including mass scrolls of Life. They do not work , if that happens.

    The requirements on what to take where set by the Dev team that made the dungeon.
    They wanted a lethal combo. And what they got where new metas, as always.

    On the other hand, i do not see why people are not taking you.
    I run TONG almost every day, and we take SWs, HRs, and TRs with us all the time.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • marv700#9957
    marv700#9957 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    It's only going to get worse after 12b hits and everyone is 80% of what they were before.
  • meerchaum
    meerchaum Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    The sad fact of the situation is that since Cryptic created a situation that effectively excludes so many classes from being able to run the content needed to get the BIS gear in a reasonable time frame. They have effectively hampered and created classes that will be always undesirable for future content because they will be chronically under geared. Most likely the way they will attempt to address the situation will be to make all that gear that is almost impossible to get, something that can be easily purchased. Then all you who spent all those hours Grinding TONG will be whining about how it isn't fair.
  • oldbaldyone
    oldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User
    Wonder what the 5 DC TONG run guys have to say about this.
  • araneax
    araneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User

    Wonder what the 5 DC TONG run guys have to say about this.

    About 12B ? Or about running TONG ? I saw a post somewhere here about 5 DCs running it, idk how it went , did not see it yet. But will do.
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • therealprotex
    therealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    About CWs in TonG: I was told by some guildmates who run TonG often (GF and DC), that despite the many times they ran the dungeon, they have yet to see a Spellstorm CW (DPS CW) that was useful in TonG. They say it is not the player, it is just that the class/build and the way the dungeon is designed do not go along well. (Even our top Spellstorm CW - he runs CN and any T2 solo - uses to switch to his MoF build when entering TonG.)

    I just wanted to add this info to the discussion.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User

    About CWs in TonG: I was told by some guildmates who run TonG often (GF and DC), that despite the many times they ran the dungeon, they have yet to see a Spellstorm CW (DPS CW) that was useful in TonG. They say it is not the player, it is just that the class/build and the way the dungeon is designed do not go along well. (Even our top Spellstorm CW - he runs CN and any T2 solo - uses to switch to his MoF build when entering TonG.)

    I just wanted to add this info to the discussion.

    I can't speak for classes, or all CWs, but only to my expiriance, and in my expiriance, I saw CWs that can easily run as the main DPS in Tomb.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    If you have issues finding a group, why not make a T9G team yourself?

    You're always guranteed a spot in your own groups...

    And there are enough people who wont join a group because they can't deal with the horror of a run taking 10 minute longer. Or they have a stupid misconception about classes or people.

    Iv'e done Tomb from being single DPS to practically 4people it. And yet there are/were some people who will be very suddenly silent when I'm/was making a group.

  • lukejones77
    lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User

    About CWs in TonG: I was told by some guildmates who run TonG often (GF and DC), that despite the many times they ran the dungeon, they have yet to see a Spellstorm CW (DPS CW) that was useful in TonG. They say it is not the player, it is just that the class/build and the way the dungeon is designed do not go along well. (Even our top Spellstorm CW - he runs CN and any T2 solo - uses to switch to his MoF build when entering TonG.)

    I just wanted to add this info to the discussion.

    It isn't so much the design of the dungeon, but rather the fact that the DPS version of a CW (The SpellStorm) has inferior damage, inferior toughness and inferior speed. The buff/support version of CW (MoF) can get by as a support class.
    The bad class imbalance for the DPS CW (also for SW and TR) has existed for a very long time now. It didn't matter so much before, because the (T1/T2) content was a roll over, and you could get a reasonably quick win with any BIS class.
    Now that we have the tough content, the class imbalances have resulted in those classes unloved by the DEVs also been unloved by those forming parties.

    The "Control" in "Control Wizard" is a joke that nobody cares about, and handling mobs is not a CW specialty these days. Even the "single target" TR can readily dispatch mobs. SW can be truly ranged while DPS CWs need to get in very close, where their squishiness is a genuine problem. We're talking top end, and it's not hard for tanks there to match CWs.
    Friends and guildies aside, whose going to take a SpellStorm DPS CW if they can get a GWF?

    If you regularly search for people by "nine gods" to see the composition of parties, you'll see it dominated very heavily by DCs, tanks and GWFs. Given the imbalances across DPS, toughness and speed, it's exactly what you should expect.
    I'm unsure as to whether or not the DEVs predicted this mess, but it was very predictable. You can't (or rather shouldn't) finally introduce tough content, without first fixing the worst of imbalances.

  • artifleur
    artifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    Finding a random group for ToNG with classes other than DC, OP, and GWF can be hard for sure but I don't see what the devs could do about.

    The only effective way of getting around this problem is to work on your friends list and create groups yourself. But even this is easier said than done, specially if you don't play during USA prime-times.

    From my experience the only essentials are 1 OP and 2 DC's.

    For the main DPS, if you don't know the player, it's a matter of how much risk of a failure you are willing to take :

    - GWF has the lowest risk rate since the class is very to play and pretty much everyone uses the same, obvious, destroyer spec. In the worst cases, a bad GWF with a lousy build but high item-level should be able to deal enough damage to complete ToNG.

    - HR has great potential but high risk. A good combat HR can beat all but the best GWF's. Good trappers can get great results too but, being the most complicated spec in the game, there aren't so many good trappers so you risk ending up with some trapper wannabe dealing mediocre damage. I know some pitiable examples. Some may even try using Archery.

    - CW's usually are great damage dealers but for some reasons I don't fully understand seem to get only mediocre results in ToNG. Probably cause most of them aren't so good at dealing single-target damage and usually compensate with AoE.

    - The chance of finding a SW or TR strong enough to complete ToNG as main DPS is very low. Which doesn't mean they don't exist. It just a high risk if you don't know them before-hand.

    So in the end, while I find it sad that people would always pick a GWF first for a random ToNG group, I can't really blame them.
  • sangrine
    sangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User


    The "Control" in "Control Wizard" is a joke that nobody cares about, and handling mobs is not a CW specialty these days. Even the "single target" TR can readily dispatch mobs. SW can be truly ranged while DPS CWs need to get in very close, where their squishiness is a genuine problem. We're talking top end, and it's not hard for tanks there to match CWs.
    Friends and guildies aside, whose going to take a SpellStorm DPS CW if they can get a GWF?

    Yes, unlike MoF CW's, SS CW's generally must stand near the fight.
    MoF CW's can be effective at far range because they can be function without steal time and without icy terrain.
    For the past two years, I have played a dedicated MoF CW. Lately, I see a lot of "fake" MoF CW's.
    By fake, I mean, they use the same or almost the same powers as SS CW, and similiar/same combat style as SS CW.
    MoF's do not automatically apply debuff's. MoF must be configured properly for debuffing.
    A proper debuff CW should be MoF, be a drow (for darkfire debuff), have debuff weapon enchantment, ......
    Be careful about accepting a MoF CW into your party. It's possible they are not debuffing at all!
    I meet a lot of CW's who are obsessed with paingiver, and it would not surprise me if some will intentionally
    not use debuffs (while playing MoF CW) in order to stay higher on paingiver.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is the new skirmish in Module 12b will award Seals of the Brave.
    There is hope for players who are unable to enter and/or complete ToNG.
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    I have run ToNG a lot of times, always as a DO DC. In most cases there has been a second DC (AC) as well, but on occasion I have been the only DC. My fastest run was indeed with the "meta" DODC/ACDC/OP/GF/GWF - 22 minutes, but typically (when running with random people, it's more like 35 minutes. 35 minutes is also my average time for the "single DC" runs I have done.

    So, yes...having 2 DCs can maybe shorten the run time by 10-15 minutes - that's all.

    Now, I have also run with HRs, SWs and TRs - with 2 GWS or none - and so on - quite a lot of different combinations. My opinion is that when you have a 15K+ group of experienced people, it really doesn't matter so much just how the group is made up, but if you have a lower-geared group (several 12-13K people), it just takes too long (or is too likely to fail) if you have some "unusual" group layout.

    Is this because the higher IL players have higher stats, or is it because they are more experienced, with a better knowledge of how to play their class?

    A side effect of this will be that after mod 12B hits, a lot of people that were struggling with ToNG will now be unable to do it at all. I expect that situation to improve a bit after a month or two when the "BiS" players have upgraded their R12s to R14s, but well....things will get bad for a while.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • therealprotex
    therealprotex Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 516 Arc User
    sangrine said:

    Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is the new skirmish in Module 12b will award Seals of the Brave. There is hope for players who are unable to enter and/or complete ToNG.

    That would be a light at the end of the tunnel. :-)

  • marv700#9957
    marv700#9957 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    adinosii said:


    Is this because the higher IL players have higher stats, or is it because they are more experienced, with a better knowledge of how to play their class?

    A side effect of this will be that after mod 12B hits, a lot of people that were struggling with ToNG will now be unable to do it at all. I expect that situation to improve a bit after a month or two when the "BiS" players have upgraded their R12s to R14s, but well....things will get bad for a while.

    It's both. Orcus is a big DPS check and lower IL players no matter how experienced just won't have the dps to do it without a perfect meta group. Even then sometimes it's not enough dps as you need good power for power share to push them over the minimum dps (and many of those lower IL folks don't have enough power).

    I agree, Tong will not be doable for a lot of folks post 12b.
  • shiani1
    shiani1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 316 Arc User

    sangrine said:

    Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is the new skirmish in Module 12b will award Seals of the Brave. There is hope for players who are unable to enter and/or complete ToNG.

    That would be a light at the end of the tunnel. :-)

    I thought I had read that it won't give the seals, but I sure do hope you're right!
    Kianni Ravenmoon and Izyana Sol'Eetah




  • feanor70118
    feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,158 Arc User
    This is really a problem for the devs. They went too far in trying to provide challenging content and ended up giving up something that requires an exploit for most players to run. The solution? Reduce mobs' (or at least Orcus') HP by 50%. Remember when it was not only possible but expected to random-queue into a dungeon during Delves hour and finish it? Remember when dungeons were fun and rewarding instead of frustrating and cheap with loot? If we need seals that only coem from this content to get the gear, we should all be able to run it. This over-emphasis on support classes has all but killed player population and interested in dungeon runs.
  • oldbaldyone
    oldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,840 Arc User

    This is really a problem for the devs. They went too far in trying to provide challenging content and ended up giving up something that requires an exploit for most players to run. The solution? Reduce mobs' (or at least Orcus') HP by 50%. Remember when it was not only possible but expected to random-queue into a dungeon during Delves hour and finish it? Remember when dungeons were fun and rewarding instead of frustrating and cheap with loot? If we need seals that only coem from this content to get the gear, we should all be able to run it. This over-emphasis on support classes has all but killed player population and interested in dungeon runs.

    The bar keeps swinging from the "Grab and 5 and go" side to the "You must have X Y Z side". They don't seem to be able to get it in the middle and I don't know if they ever will.

    That said, the toughest content in game should require some thought process as to who you bring. The problem comes when that thought process ends up narrowed down to 4 classes, leaving the other 5 in the dust. Not saying you must have those, but I don't think anyone can say it doesn't help a bunch.

    The reliance on debuffs is bad, because in general, more debuffs is better than more DPS. The reliance on debuffs that only a few classes have is bad (I don't want all classes to have all debuffs, but devs have to remember there are only 5 spots for a 10 man team).

  • luks707
    luks707 Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    What most people aren't talking about is that groups can fail at TONG and do so regularly. My DC has picked up a significant proportion of his seals simply by helping people out stuck at the various bosses (yes, people fail at second boss too!). I personally don't mind it taking longer, but I do mind runs that take 2h because you keep failing because the party just isn't strong enough. And I've been in some of those too, often where people are relatively inexperienced and don't know how to build their class to synergise. I suppose with the coming changes that will be even more important and I honestly worry that the fail rate is going to go through the roof and hence the unwillingness to take any risks.
    That said - in my experience HRs are some of the best DPS for TONG either as support or main.