> @lukejones77 said: > > > so I guess it's a toss up on what is lore and not for you, maybe you even feel the original lore is the one true canon. everybody has their opinion > > Let's forget words and opinions. There's a reasonably typical setup in Nine Gods right now. Do a search under "Find Person" with "Nine Gods", and count the class distribution. > You can confirm numbers if you're quick enough: > > 21 DCs > 13 GWFs > 11 Palies > 4 Mof CWs > 3 GFs > 3 SW > 0 TR > 0 HR > 0 DPS CW > > > Just spoke to somebody in a CN run who recognized me as the "mad guy in the forums". Said his top guildies wiped in a TONG yesterday, because the party didn't fit the meta. > > There.Is.A.Problem.
what changes would you want to see done with cw for a dps boost?
> so I guess it's a toss up on what is lore and not for you, maybe you even feel the original lore is the one true canon. everybody has their opinion
>
> Let's forget words and opinions. There's a reasonably typical setup in Nine Gods right now. Do a search under "Find Person" with "Nine Gods", and count the class distribution.
> You can confirm numbers if you're quick enough:
>
> 21 DCs
> 13 GWFs
> 11 Palies
> 4 Mof CWs
> 3 GFs
> 3 SW
> 0 TR
> 0 HR
> 0 DPS CW
>
>
> Just spoke to somebody in a CN run who recognized me as the "mad guy in the forums". Said his top guildies wiped in a TONG yesterday, because the party didn't fit the meta.
>
> There.Is.A.Problem.
what changes would you want to see done with cw for a dps boost?
A very simple one. Increase weapon damage by 10-15%.
Or a not so simple way:
Make ss able to crit again (tune down the damage a bit in exchange) Fix fake casts of conduit of ice Increase duration of chill debuff Rework some feats entirely (snap freeze, destructive wizardry, far spell, frozen power transfer, transcended master, reaper's touch, energy recovery, unrestrained chaos, masterful arcane theft, chaos magic, all of the oppressor tree). Remove the penalty on 3/3 focused wizardry Increase offensive stats on gear based on defense discrepancy between GWF and CW (GWF gear have the same offensive budget but for some reason, they get 128% ~ extra defense for free). Allow scaling damage from defensive stats (personally, I'd remove ALL scaling damage from defensive stats from non tanks).
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
what changes would you want to see done with cw for a dps boost?
I don't want to propose anything for a DPS CW. I'd like the DEVs to take a good hard look at badly under performing classes, probably owned by hard working players, and fix them.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
You can spend lot's of money here and invest in your character, but when they under-perform overall, it is nothing but a waste. Add in the nerfs that happen to your class and it is a deal breaker.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
Yup, the game is going in a very bad direction. A load of us in my guild (R20, 149/150 active accounts) were discussing it and a decent number of us who've been here since beta just feel this is not the game we signed up to (variety of BiS and more casual people). We don't understand the motivation behind a lot of the design, and are just fed up of spending a load of money on getting something that's fun to play and then having the whole playstyle nerfed out of existence.
I've been burned too many times, and each change seems to suck more fun out of the game (who thought the dino ambushes were fun ? Our guild is very sociable so having a zone you can't just respond to chat or you'll die and teleport back the whole width of it on res is a real no-no).
It's a well known fact from other MMOs that the forum population is not representative of the player base, and I feel the devs are catering to the vocal minority here that wants ever harder content, while ignoring the rest of the population, meaning that they can never get into these dungeons and will struggle with them if they do so can't get the gear they need to progress.
I like cw , I think it's fun to play but I never look at the dps charts very often.. and my dwarf wizard is pretty rare.. I think he does it ok regardless of how unpopular that race is for that class.. he is pretty sturdy and doesn't use a defensive armor enchant but does use shield in the mastery slot another no no.. in my MoF loadout it's totally different.. but storm mage is what i like yo play for fun , MoF is more serious debuffing but still awesome fun to play.. CCing mobs with IT ST and the tiamat orb and single target with ray of frost with the aboleth weapon buff and pure frost to slow them..
I'd like to sympathize with you but maybe it's a problem with your environment?
I personally don't believe that you have to be the best player (of your class or in general) to be looked up as a guild leader. If your relationships are based on "i am the guild leader, i am the best, i am (almost) always right" or "im better than you, you shame me being the guild leader" then you can stop reading-- im sorry to say but you better leave that toxic relationship.
Sure of course who wouldn't want to be the best? But I have learned ages ago that change is inevitable. I started from being a useless archer just staying far and using fox cunning to keep other dps alive in boss fights. And then not too long ago, doing damage became viable, i was given an option, do massive dps by myself, or do less damage(debatable) , but more utility?
Each one of us has his own set of core morals and beliefs, and for me, i built up my character with the intent of making runs smoother and easier, so the choice was obvious for me, to get the one with more utility.
You can argue that you built your toon to be the top dps, and it is not hard, just get a group that buffs you, and voila the runs will still be easy and you are the top dps.
But you are gonna hit the roof, relying on just the dps mechanic of the game. You wont be able to carry people with just brute "i can do high damage" on slightly harder dungeons if you cant be bothered to care about buff and debuff mechanics and so this becomes the wall that if you cant step back and reevaluate, will be the wall that would only bring you negative emotions as you find yourself struggling but never overcoming it.
To conclude, you can try to be more positive as you can still always be dishing out huge numbers and prove to be an asset on runs, you just have to find the right people-no one can take that away from you.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
The problem as I see it is that the game is far too much built around endless grinding for campaign currencies/keys and not on jsut doing dungeon runs for fun or to get new gear. Due to a perceived demand for a challenge we get bosses (#2 in both MSP and TONG) with insta-kill control powers that are hard to avoid and make the outcome at least as much a question of skill as luck. Support classes are an absolute necessity in dungeons - often two DCs per party - but people in general don't like playing them in solo content. With years of effort put into my main I am certainly not going to complete 12 campaigns with an alt just to be useful in dungeon runs. Moreover, the real problem is the endless post-mod 6 emphasis on unreal damage and power creep. What Cryptic should be concentrating on is rolling equipment, damage and game mechanics back to mod 5 so players can play the classes and the content that they want to and actually have fun. Forcing us into one given meta with an unrealistic expectation for party makeup is just plain BAD DESIGN. Frustrating, pointless and unavoidable insta-kill causing party members to leave or be kicked is BAD DESIGN.
I can still remember when a player could just solo queue and be in the dungeon of his/her choice in a few minutes with a reasonable expectation of success. Cryptic has been moving far away from that idea - which should be its goal - for years, and we can't see any reason why.
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
I'd like to sympathize with you but maybe it's a problem with your environment?
I personally don't believe that you have to be the best player (of your class or in general) to be looked up as a guild leader. If your relationships are based on "i am the guild leader, i am the best, i am (almost) always right" or "im better than you, you shame me being the guild leader" then you can stop reading-- im sorry to say but you better leave that toxic relationship.
Huh? What I said about stepping down from leadership? No, no. I said that "My guildies are awesome, but I don't want them carrying me...". Nothing toxic there. I also have to add, that our "Leader amongst leaders" is about the most awesome person you could hope for. My solo game play now is purely about a personal decision not to slow them down, when we have a very strong guild with lots of very strong options. I did get dragged into running 3 hours with them last night. Great to run with them, but sadly, seems like there's lots of talk about leaving, and general dissatisfaction with the game's direction. Most of the talk was about how good to the game used to be, with some focus on how you used to be be able to take any class combo of good players, and feel like you were making decent progress. I'm sensing that speed runs with specific classes, in a game designed for massive grinding... well... there's your toxicity.
It is easy to get nostalgic, sure. In the past it seemed that buffs weren't that an important part of the game, and that occasionally, heals actually did matter. So it was more straightforward what everyone's roles were supposed to be. But there was also a lot of unpleasantness in the past that nostalgia doesn't seem justified. Glitching T2 dungeons, 4 CW parties to CN, etc. The game just took a different direction, the DC is the "new CW" in the context of old CN runs. Not sure if it's good or bad, it is just different.
what? Ive spent the same too but Im always on top paingiver ! rarely 2 I am an hr 16.6 k btw if that helps its just about the build u have u have to spend more time building ur character with the best build> just my 2 cents good luck
Perhaps because HR is in a quite well state atm, and classes they are discussing are the ones underperforming, which excludes HR
buff/debuff MoF CW still do decent personal dps, but a bit less than SS CW. The main reason that MoF CW is low on paingiver is because buffs/debuffs help other players. Stop worrying about paingiver, and start thinking about how you can best contribute to the party. If GWF could gain huge buffs/debuffs by sacrificing a little personal dps, then players would expect GWF to be buffers/debuffers too. Imagine how fast a DC would be kicked from a party, if that DC was spec'd for personal dps, and did not give any party buffs/debuffs. Sorry if I dont feel pity for SS CW.
Last time I run beside a SS-CW was about mod 11 ... and he blew me out of my socks with his "Desintegrate-machinegun". Did I miss any nerf lately?
That might have been me.
No nerfs per say but it's just that since there's quite a few videos of GWF doins absurd damage, people think GWF are the ONLY viable option for dps in tomb. It's dumb. The problem aren't the GWFs themselves, it's those that think GWFs is a necessity (same people will usually refuse to run anything else than 2 dc ,1 gf, 1 op, 1 gwf).
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
buff/debuff MoF CW still do decent personal dps, but a bit less than SS CW. The main reason that MoF CW is low on paingiver is because buffs/debuffs help other players. Stop worrying about paingiver, and start thinking about how you can best contribute to the party. If GWF could gain huge buffs/debuffs by sacrificing a little personal dps, then players would expect GWF to be buffers/debuffers too. Imagine how fast a DC would be kicked from a party, if that DC was spec'd for personal dps, and did not give any party buffs/debuffs. Sorry if I dont feel pity for SS CW.
Are you saying that CWs should all choose to be MoF support, and that the SpellStorm Thau is a paragon build that shouldn't be considered viable? Wouldn't you agree that if the game offers a paragon role, and players put a lot of effort into it, the game should properly support that choice? What about TRs? What option do they have, other than to be DPS? It's not necessarily worrying about being PainGiver, but if DPS is all you bring to the table (Control has been made pretty much irrelevant), then the PainGiver chart is how you are judged. Gear for gear, the PainGiver chart has looked comparatively bad for 2 years. The problem now is that certain classes suffer badly with toughened up content, and are struggling to be considered relevant. It's important that people enjoy the role they play, and a support role is pretty different from a DPS role. Additionally, you make quite expensive choices maximizing gear for a specific role. You don't make a great MoF by simply switching a loadout, unless you have amazing wealth (and ignoring a liekly race change). Given that a MoF is a support role, and the SS a DPS role, surely it would be an issue that the MoF dmage is only "a bit less than the SS CW", as you say. Again, don't forget the TR.
Comments
> >
> so I guess it's a toss up on what is lore and not for you, maybe you even feel the original lore is the one true canon. everybody has their opinion
>
> Let's forget words and opinions. There's a reasonably typical setup in Nine Gods right now. Do a search under "Find Person" with "Nine Gods", and count the class distribution.
> You can confirm numbers if you're quick enough:
>
> 21 DCs
> 13 GWFs
> 11 Palies
> 4 Mof CWs
> 3 GFs
> 3 SW
> 0 TR
> 0 HR
> 0 DPS CW
>
>
> Just spoke to somebody in a CN run who recognized me as the "mad guy in the forums". Said his top guildies wiped in a TONG yesterday, because the party didn't fit the meta.
>
> There.Is.A.Problem.
what changes would you want to see done with cw for a dps boost?
A very simple one. Increase weapon damage by 10-15%.
Or a not so simple way:
Make ss able to crit again (tune down the damage a bit in exchange)
Fix fake casts of conduit of ice
Increase duration of chill debuff
Rework some feats entirely (snap freeze, destructive wizardry, far spell, frozen power transfer, transcended master, reaper's touch, energy recovery, unrestrained chaos, masterful arcane theft, chaos magic, all of the oppressor tree).
Remove the penalty on 3/3 focused wizardry
Increase offensive stats on gear based on defense discrepancy between GWF and CW (GWF gear have the same offensive budget but for some reason, they get 128% ~ extra defense for free).
Allow scaling damage from defensive stats (personally, I'd remove ALL scaling damage from defensive stats from non tanks).
Add in the nerfs that happen to your class and it is a deal breaker.
I've been burned too many times, and each change seems to suck more fun out of the game (who thought the dino ambushes were fun ? Our guild is very sociable so having a zone you can't just respond to chat or you'll die and teleport back the whole width of it on res is a real no-no).
It's a well known fact from other MMOs that the forum population is not representative of the player base, and I feel the devs are catering to the vocal minority here that wants ever harder content, while ignoring the rest of the population, meaning that they can never get into these dungeons and will struggle with them if they do so can't get the gear they need to progress.
defensive armor enchant but does use shield in the mastery slot
I personally don't believe that you have to be the best player (of your class or in general) to be looked up as a guild leader. If your relationships are based on "i am the guild leader, i am the best, i am (almost) always right" or "im better than you, you shame me being the guild leader" then you can stop reading-- im sorry to say but you better leave that toxic relationship.
Sure of course who wouldn't want to be the best? But I have learned ages ago that change is inevitable. I started from being a useless archer just staying far and using fox cunning to keep other dps alive in boss fights. And then not too long ago, doing damage became viable, i was given an option, do massive dps by myself, or do less damage(debatable) , but more utility?
Each one of us has his own set of core morals and beliefs, and for me, i built up my character with the intent of making runs smoother and easier, so the choice was obvious for me, to get the one with more utility.
You can argue that you built your toon to be the top dps, and it is not hard, just get a group that buffs you, and voila the runs will still be easy and you are the top dps.
But you are gonna hit the roof, relying on just the dps mechanic of the game. You wont be able to carry people with just brute "i can do high damage" on slightly harder dungeons if you cant be bothered to care about buff and debuff mechanics and so this becomes the wall that if you cant step back and reevaluate, will be the wall that would only bring you negative emotions as you find yourself struggling but never overcoming it.
To conclude, you can try to be more positive as you can still always be dishing out huge numbers and prove to be an asset on runs, you just have to find the right people-no one can take that away from you.
I can still remember when a player could just solo queue and be in the dungeon of his/her choice in a few minutes with a reasonable expectation of success. Cryptic has been moving far away from that idea - which should be its goal - for years, and we can't see any reason why.
@lukejones77 Will you spend for it?
Dead🔪Love your work
I also have to add, that our "Leader amongst leaders" is about the most awesome person you could hope for. My solo game play now is purely about a personal decision not to slow them down, when we have a very strong guild with lots of very strong options.
I did get dragged into running 3 hours with them last night. Great to run with them, but sadly, seems like there's lots of talk about leaving, and general dissatisfaction with the game's direction. Most of the talk was about how good to the game used to be, with some focus on how you used to be be able to take any class combo of good players, and feel like you were making decent progress.
I'm sensing that speed runs with specific classes, in a game designed for massive grinding... well... there's your toxicity.
The main reason that MoF CW is low on paingiver is because buffs/debuffs help other players.
Stop worrying about paingiver, and start thinking about how you can best contribute to the party.
If GWF could gain huge buffs/debuffs by sacrificing a little personal dps, then players would
expect GWF to be buffers/debuffers too. Imagine how fast a DC would be kicked from a party,
if that DC was spec'd for personal dps, and did not give any party buffs/debuffs.
Sorry if I dont feel pity for SS CW.
Did I miss any nerf lately?
No nerfs per say but it's just that since there's quite a few videos of GWF doins absurd damage, people think GWF are the ONLY viable option for dps in tomb. It's dumb. The problem aren't the GWFs themselves, it's those that think GWFs is a necessity (same people will usually refuse to run anything else than 2 dc ,1 gf, 1 op, 1 gwf).
Wouldn't you agree that if the game offers a paragon role, and players put a lot of effort into it, the game should properly support that choice?
What about TRs? What option do they have, other than to be DPS?
It's not necessarily worrying about being PainGiver, but if DPS is all you bring to the table (Control has been made pretty much irrelevant), then the PainGiver chart is how you are judged. Gear for gear, the PainGiver chart has looked comparatively bad for 2 years. The problem now is that certain classes suffer badly with toughened up content, and are struggling to be considered relevant.
It's important that people enjoy the role they play, and a support role is pretty different from a DPS role. Additionally, you make quite expensive choices maximizing gear for a specific role. You don't make a great MoF by simply switching a loadout, unless you have amazing wealth (and ignoring a liekly race change). Given that a MoF is a support role, and the SS a DPS role, surely it would be an issue that the MoF dmage is only "a bit less than the SS CW", as you say.
Again, don't forget the TR.