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Too discriminated against, to consider spending money on the game?
lukejones77
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
I'm a pragmatist that would love to support the game by spending real money on it, and still have for VIP, but the game discriminates against my chosen class role so badly that it just doesn't make sense.
Although the class has an extremely viable buff/debuff alternate build approach, it's just not the game/role I love and want to play.
The game is structured in such a way that you spend the vast majority of your refining effort and cost in the final few percentages of your class potential. So, assuming that your class has the DPS potential to be "up with the best of them", it's worth putting in that effort to be a front line option when parties are formed to take on the toughest, newest, most rewarding dungeons.
If on the other hand, DPS is what you have to offer, and your class inherently doesn't have the DPS potential of other classes, then any attempts to grind, get lucky or pay your way to your potential, is pretty much a waste of time.
Unfortunately, my chosen class and DPS role got kicked into the ditch over 2 years ago. While many of us just left the game, but I spent a year trying everything to stay relevant and competitive, but eventually gave up. I stepped down from rank 7 in my guild, and found meaning in playing a more solo game, running with struggling under-geared PUGs, and giving up on playing the tough new dungeons from the last few modules. My guildies are awesome, but I didn't want them carrying me through the newest runs, when the new HRs and GWFs they started building are much better options.
For quite a while, the prevailing metas haven't included my chosen class and role, so the complete lack of any kind of DEV assistance over the years has certainly discriminated against it. After a while you learn to stop "keeping up to date" with gear, waiting for the balance changes that will make it worth while. You stop worrying about getting into the latest dungeons, and learn to simply enjoy in the game in the way that makes sense.
The discrimation exists in other ways too. You see the patterns of the anointed DPS classes getting the legendary drops in runs like eDemo, blasting their way to the top of the PainGiver chart. They have far better DPS, far better survivability, and far better speed - also good for rapidly chasing down hunts, succeeding easily and quickly in all the tough encounters.
Of course, I would have expected a financially healthier game, if all classes were given given the same potential to stay competitive and relevant to the best challenges as mods roll by. I would have expected that theorycrafting underderperforming classes with little incentive to "be their best", and overpowering other classes that can "be lazy" with rank 8/9/10 enchants wouldn't help financial health - but hey, I'm sure they know what they're doing.
The best new gear clearly favors those very high DPS too - it's stares you in the face with stacking bonuses for very big hits.
If goodies like rank 14 enchants are on the way, and the competitive classes will soon all have them, so be it. If my build potential has 65% of their potential, and it drops to a relative 60%, it makes no difference to how desirable I am as an option in a party build.
I can slowly take my time to make up that 5%, as the game is deliberately "theory-crafted" to stop me being top-tier relevant anyway.
Although the class has an extremely viable buff/debuff alternate build approach, it's just not the game/role I love and want to play.
The game is structured in such a way that you spend the vast majority of your refining effort and cost in the final few percentages of your class potential. So, assuming that your class has the DPS potential to be "up with the best of them", it's worth putting in that effort to be a front line option when parties are formed to take on the toughest, newest, most rewarding dungeons.
If on the other hand, DPS is what you have to offer, and your class inherently doesn't have the DPS potential of other classes, then any attempts to grind, get lucky or pay your way to your potential, is pretty much a waste of time.
Unfortunately, my chosen class and DPS role got kicked into the ditch over 2 years ago. While many of us just left the game, but I spent a year trying everything to stay relevant and competitive, but eventually gave up. I stepped down from rank 7 in my guild, and found meaning in playing a more solo game, running with struggling under-geared PUGs, and giving up on playing the tough new dungeons from the last few modules. My guildies are awesome, but I didn't want them carrying me through the newest runs, when the new HRs and GWFs they started building are much better options.
For quite a while, the prevailing metas haven't included my chosen class and role, so the complete lack of any kind of DEV assistance over the years has certainly discriminated against it. After a while you learn to stop "keeping up to date" with gear, waiting for the balance changes that will make it worth while. You stop worrying about getting into the latest dungeons, and learn to simply enjoy in the game in the way that makes sense.
The discrimation exists in other ways too. You see the patterns of the anointed DPS classes getting the legendary drops in runs like eDemo, blasting their way to the top of the PainGiver chart. They have far better DPS, far better survivability, and far better speed - also good for rapidly chasing down hunts, succeeding easily and quickly in all the tough encounters.
Of course, I would have expected a financially healthier game, if all classes were given given the same potential to stay competitive and relevant to the best challenges as mods roll by. I would have expected that theorycrafting underderperforming classes with little incentive to "be their best", and overpowering other classes that can "be lazy" with rank 8/9/10 enchants wouldn't help financial health - but hey, I'm sure they know what they're doing.
The best new gear clearly favors those very high DPS too - it's stares you in the face with stacking bonuses for very big hits.
If goodies like rank 14 enchants are on the way, and the competitive classes will soon all have them, so be it. If my build potential has 65% of their potential, and it drops to a relative 60%, it makes no difference to how desirable I am as an option in a party build.
I can slowly take my time to make up that 5%, as the game is deliberately "theory-crafted" to stop me being top-tier relevant anyway.
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That said, I certainly believe that honoring the class choice of players that choose naturally supportive classes, and ensuring that they're kept relevant, is a primary (and difficult) responsibility of an MMO developer.
I prefer not to mention the class, as that's just another "me too" complaining thread about obvious class imbalances.
Rather, I'd prefer to highlight that when you let class balance amongst a shared role (i.e. the various DPS classes) severely discriminate a particular class, for way, way too long, you disincentivize them from chasing all the latest goodies from module to module - very likely affecting your MMO business model. In this case, it's about persisting the nerfs that saw 1000s leave the game over 2 years ago. Nerfs were needed, but the depth and the on-going state of how they played out is untenable.
To be honest, I think that the premier players of my class were the architects of their own continuing demise. After virtually a year and half "no nerfs" policy following the mass player exodus, we finally got the long-awaited "rebalancing", but my premier colleagues elected to play the role of "theorycrafter", magnanimously offering to the DEVs advice on what could be further nerfed in our class forum (now a barren wasteland of misguided stupidity). I was fairly horrified, fearing that it sent the message "we're kinda happy with how things are", and suspecting that the DEVs would react only to those screamed pain, when making class balance changes.
Sure enough, absolutely nothing changed for the class, and the "premier theorycrafters" have pretty much since left the game, or at least the class. It actually follows logically from how DEVs have stated they prioritize changes.
Real Life -> Nice Guys Finish Last.
Some classes get buffs and classes like the CW was megga nerfed the last 3 times they were "Ballanced"
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
My main character is one of the classes that is seen as 'less than' because it is perceived by many to be less effective because it deals less damage than some other classes. That has never stopped me from eking out every last ounce of what the class is capable of. It has never stopped me from using every tool available to my class to help my party succeed in a dungeon, regardless of what flavor that help ends up being.
I've run through T9G with various party compositions and in those runs I've gone through with every class in the game successfully, more often than not in under 30 minutes. Do some classes perform better than others? Absolutely, but that does not make any of the less than optimal classes incapable of completing T9G, or MSP or FBI etc. If you build your group appropriately you'll have an appropriate level of success.
My advice for anyone playing a class that is seen as an underdog is to try different things and practice different setups. Talk to other members of your class, find out what works for them, tell them what works for you. Experiment and find the best possible setup for your desired goal. If you find yourself incapable of putting out more damage, try fulfilling more of a buffer role, if possible. Buffers provide more to a group's chance of success in a dungeon than the damage dealers. If you find your damage is lacking compared to another class, ask yourself what else you bring to the table? Do you also provide a modicum of crowd control? Well if you do that makes up for some of the damage you lack. Do you provide debuffs to a target or buffs to your party? If you provide anything other than raw damage that makes up for any lack of damage you may be seeing. Bottom line is that every class in this game is capable of performing up to the expectations that result in a successful dungeon run if played well with an appropriate spec in an appropriate group.
Surround yourself with players who understand that there is more to the success of a dungeon run than raw damage and you're entire gaming experience in Neverwinter will change.
Finally, allow yourself to be open to playing your class in a different way than you may 'want' to. If you find your Spellstorm isn't living up to your expectation then maybe you could shine as a Master of Flame. If you initially wanted to play the game as a Whisperknife but find that it doesn't perform up to your expectation then try Master Infiltrator. Don't pigeon-hole yourself into playing a certain way if there are other options available that are more efficient or that simply perform better. Don't allow stubbornness to prevent you or your group from succeeding.
Yes the game needs better balance. Class balance, item balance, buffs/debuffs.. there is a long list of things in this game that could use balancing. In the end we have to do our best with the tools we're given and always be ready to adapt in a changing environment.
Perhaps I'm seeing this through the rose-coloured lens of my position as a Leader in a premier guild who is surrounded by premier players who represent the pinnacle of their class. Then again, we didn't just wake up one day to find ourselves in this position, we worked hard to learn how to optimize ourselves, our group compositions and our dungeon runs. We worked together and learned from each other and became better and stronger for the effort.
As I said, there is an option to change class paragon, gear, race, and feats and respec for a very viable complete role change and become a buffer/debuffer. It's a big change, it's not the game play style I enjoy, and it would be giving up on a fundamental (used to be much loved) class option within the game of Neverwinter - admitting that it's non-viable simply due to years of complete DEV neglect.
I elected not to burden my awesome guildies with having to carry me. Of course there is more than one way to contribute to the fundamental goal of causing the damage that gets the win, but my chosen class paragon is clearly outclassed in every way (damage, speed, survivability) by the anointed DPS classes. The bottom line is that they would get far more out of me if I came as, let's say, a GWF or HR. Many of them have responded over time by building GWFs, and I'm happy for them to take my spot in guild runs. I elect not to rebuild as a GWF.
Its best just to find a actual alliance that doesnt fret about always optimal performance and instead embraces a more liberal.. we run things for the player, not the damn class they play.
"Sometimes" is about a constant adjustment process, but 2 years is a different story. It's neglect.
Be fair and honest with players. Players spend a great deal of time and/or money developing their chosen class paragon to it's maximum potential. If that role is DPS, and they're far behind other DPS classes, with no redeeming (party desirable) features, they have a big problem.
This post never denied that anyone could do any content if they had the right friends/guildies to carry them. Certain party configurations will kill a run very quickly, and others (carrying players and certain classes) could take significant time. Also, we're probably gonna have to do this run 50 times to get all our gear? This post isn't about that issue.
The point of this post was clearly that most of your time and effort is spent on the last few % of refining or enchanting your gear to it's maximum potential. There's a massive difference in spend between a 15K GWF and a 12K GWF, but if I have to spend the same as a 15K GWF to only get the equivalent of an 12K GWF, what's the point? Certainly the theorycrafting behind my class paragon discriminates against me to the point where it makes no sense to spend money maximizing my potential.
That's all I'm saying.
Tbh it's the same with most classes ... If the hypothetical 15k gwf you talk about was running Sentinel, because he likes it, he would do quite a bit less damage ...
It's nothing new in NW that parangon path are not really balanced. At that point, it's your choice to change, or stick with the one you like.
Ideally, every classes would have 3 useful paths but I wouldn't hold my breath ...
Yes, I could be part of the current meta, but I'd rather be the noisy guy in the forums complaining about the classes that the DEVs left behind.I was inwardly focussed on the Thau CW, but it's interesting that SWs and TRs have come up as guesses. I particularly feel for neglected classes like TR, that don't have much of an alternative to low-end DPS. You can actually do amazing (little known) things as an SW.
The point remains, be you TR, SW, or SS CW.
.... although, you might still make it into those queues, as the DEVs look set to address the problems with.... ta da...... "Random Queues"! Just so, so bad
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Hehe yeah, am a SW myself and yep, can do some neat things but most people don't know about it
This post isn't about the fact that you're happy with mob AOE, it's about *anyone's* class potential, and whether it makes sense for them to go hard, and try to be relevant with other classes potential - maybe even spend real money getting there.
I'm skilled in my main class, so with a good tank I'm not even dying once(ok maybe once around the second campfire) but during these moments a sw or cw is already laying the smack down from a relatively safe distance, going all out gates of hell, ice knifing, whatever. the whole way up I'm playing catch up running out of stamina chasing everything down, other times bunny hopping over the smallest lumps in the ground sending me flying away from mobs swinging at the air, maybe straight into death trap. so yea I have a bit of envy there, not that I'm calling for some class changes over any of that stuff because I'm not, just wanted to add my 2 cents to an interesting thread. I actually have more I want to add and I probably will later when I'm not busy. I'd like to add a bit about the "weaker" classes also making things so much easier for me in any dungeon or trial I'm currently capable of doing. there is imo a huge under appreciation for you guys.
You might be thinking about CWs that are playing buff/debuff role, multiplying your DPS (MoFs). The DPS CWs (SS) are very much in the middle of the fight with you, but with much, much less survivability than you. Trust me, the DPS CWs, trying to stay relevant, have almost glass canon builds, dodging like crazy, standing right next to the tank and DC, hoping for any kind of buff that makes them look less anemic. In general they're the ones you see respawning at the campfire, way, way more often than the GWF.
It's kinda important to understand that you're dealing with 2 very different roles here, and those who have opted for the support role are not the ones complaining about the DPS class imbalance.
Of course, if you're in a viable party doing the latest content, and you see a CW, they're like the support kind multiplying your damage.
I guess the problem you're describing is that the other DPS have been made so much weaker than you, that you're getting too much of the aggro. You want to campaign for those classes to be made stronger?
They definitely arn't complaining
there are two classes that can be at least a bit disturbed about current status.. TRS who , well ya, for like mods and mods never matched any other class, while early on the game, there was less dps and they were good at ST boss fights, making them at least not useless, most of the time most of the epics had a billion adds (think the CN hallways .. like all the fights were like that) and the most uselful classes were either the CW (to control all of these adds ) or a GWF or something to run them around ad nasuem. (bravery + super unstoppable for the win!)
and the SW.;. who for you know.. a billion mods since they were made, where hacked and slashed and carved every build they had.. while it was one of the buggier classes to start with.. they have done them no favors. Its not even close to the recognizable anymore.. wierd what they did to that class.. constant nerfs and adjustments every mod.. I gave up using it for anything really.
Just because you choose a less then current meta paragon pathing, has little do with your arguments.
Frankly they have too many feat treas to start with.. they should pare them all down to 2. 2 paragons, 2 paths. thats it.
While Im like 98% certain im leaving the game soon, I still see these really mis directed and odd postings, they are invalid arguments and have little to do with the game.
Every mmo has meta pathing.. every SINGLE one of them.
> but during these moments a sw or cw is already laying the smack down from a relatively safe distance
>
> In general, I thank you for your sentiment.
> You might be thinking about CWs that are playing buff/debuff role, multiplying your DPS (MoFs). The DPS CWs (SS) are very much in the middle of the fight with you, but with much, much less survivability than you. Trust me, the DPS CWs, trying to stay relevant, have almost glass canon builds, dodging like crazy, standing right next to the tank and DC, hoping for any kind of buff that makes them look less anemic. In general they're the ones you see respawning at the campfire, way, way more often than the GWF.
> It's kinda important to understand that you're dealing with 2 very different roles here, and those who have opted for the support role are not the ones complaining about the DPS class imbalance.
> Of course, if you're in a viable party doing the latest content, and you see a CW, they're like the support kind multiplying your damage.
> I guess the problem you're describing is that the other DPS have been made so much weaker than you, that you're getting too much of the aggro. You want to campaign for those classes to be made stronger?
that's not true though. I have yet to get a group with a pure buff MoF cw in tier 3 because they get the spots in meta groups, ones that I'm excluded from because I'm not bis. besides that I know how squishy a cw can be, I have an alt cw thats only a few EE quests from 70. I can't argue against gwf being able to face tank better than cw, because it's true, but it's not as black and white as that concerning overall survivability.
a SS thaum is dipping in and out of the pack to maximize their dps, but the thing is they can still hit for huge dps from a distance, especially with the reworked trans lightning enchant, something a gwf cannot do. I must stay close at all times to maximize my dps and there is more danger involved with that. another thing is that cw has an immunity frame with their dodge mechanic, gwf does not have immunity but does gain a bit of dr. in order for me to survive a giant hammer swing or shout I need a fresh stack of AA and to be in unstoppable and to be sprinting, not that I wait around to get smacked anyway. a cw can just immunity frame out of it with good timing.
another nice qol, huddling around the dc, if there is one, and soaking up the buffs. there's times climbing the mountain that I'm just not getting buffed because the dc is more worried about staying alive while keeping the tank alive, while I'm keeping the marking up and aiming for CA or finding a window for weapon masters strike. because the giants frames are so bulky it leads to me being just outside of the buff distance from time to time.
concerning class roles, you're a cw. a controller is suppose to be weaker than a striker in D&D lore right? correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still a bit new to the lore but that's what I've gathered from what I read on the forum. even if you build as dps spec, it's just the correct order for a dps spec striker to out do you in paingiver.
I think it's good group synergy for a gwf to gain aggro second if the tank goes down in fbi. I utilize slam myself besides doing alot of damage so I'm setting myself up for that purposely. so yea say the tank gets rekt and the giants/bears turn right toward me. the first thing I do is sprint away effectively kiting them while somebody takes this chance to pick up the tank, another keeps piling the deeps, ideally the ranged dps, and then the heals brings them back up to full health. now the aggro is off of me again and we continue where we left off.
I don't know if the games devs worked this all out on purpose or not but it balances things out really well for people that have a good grasp of the mechanics. I wouldn't be opposed to cw getting a buff either, even though I'd say tr deserves it more, but I'm also against every dps class having the same exact dps ceiling.
A CW occassionally coming close, is in the middle of a very large mob, doing attacks at melee range. Oh Gods. It's really simple. There are multiple classes that have a fundamental DPS paragon. The DEVs have made some of those paragons very strong, and left others relatively weak. Before, everyone played nice, but now that they've finally delivered challenging content, it's created a *REAL PROBLEM* for the weak DPS classes.
You're talking about giants and bears and healing to full health, and how you sprint - so much irrelevancy that I have to wonder if you're trolling FUD to water down the thread.
Seriously. A real problem.
Yeah, a bunch of history on what used to be TR roles, and how the halls of CN looked etc etc.
That doesn't matter now. Everyone knows that the DEVS are supposed to keep things at least balanced enough so that we don't have gaps so wide that it affects people's ability to get to end content. Not everyone has the resources you do, the alts you do or the friend/guild support you do. Many work long and hard at a main that they find marginalized due to no fault of their own. Not only that, it's a long, long time between module releases to "hope it's better next time".
To trivialize the issue by suggesting that it's because they "chose a less than current meta paragon" isn't appropriate. I'm sure you know full-well that the DEVs had issues with both class balancing, and with challenging enough content. They simply went ahead with challenging content before fixing the worst imbalances.
Just my 2 cents.
> > but during these moments a sw or cw is already laying the smack down from a relatively safe distance
>
>
>
> At comparative class potential, it simply isn't an SW or CW "laying down the smack". It's really not even worth arguing about. It's really, really obvious to everyone.
> A CW occassionally coming close, is in the middle of a very large mob, doing attacks at melee range.
> concerning class roles, you're a cw. a controller is suppose to be weaker than a striker in D&D lore right?
>
>
> Oh Gods. It's really simple. There are multiple classes that have a fundamental DPS paragon. The DEVs have made some of those paragons very strong, and left others relatively weak. Before, everyone played nice, but now that they've finally delivered challenging content, it's created a *REAL PROBLEM* for the weak DPS classes.
>
> You're talking about giants and bears and healing to full health, and how you sprint - so much irrelevancy that I have to wonder if you're trolling FUD to water down the thread.
>
> Seriously. A real problem.
honestly you sound really emotional about it, and I did catch this post before you hit the edit, so let me just start by saying that, no I'm not trolling, I'm giving some perspective on the balance of how things actually play out in pugs and premades that aren't running meta comp with bis players. let me also point out that others have also commented above that their own, and their guildmates dps spec cw, is doing very well in the paingiver category, so I'm not at alone in my observation. you said yourself you're pragmatic, well this is a practical way of looking at.
you aren't appreciating what I mentioned about FBI and how the mechanics of the fights have a leveling effect on the playing field and affects the flow of who is topping paingiver, rather than looking at it as if it's on paper and going, "hmm, combat hr/swordmaster gwf and two ss cw, the hr/gwf will unquestionably top the chart the whole dungeon unrelentlessly by (x) amount". ok then, you would rather focus on the very latest content, which would be TONG, and how cw isn't viable there. that's fine with me, but someone else has already previously mentioned above that TONG can be completed with any group comp. are they making that up?
get more specific if you want to. how many millions is a cw putting up by the end of the dungeon? is it so insignificant that it's useless bringing a cw? the new mod hasn't reached console yet so it's not for me to say. I've read about one of the bosses having a dps check though, as in you are going to wipe if not done. can a group of dps cw pull it off?
I didn't want to let this part of your original post slip through, it feels pretty important to the discussion.
>"No. In lore the DnD wizard was vastly overpowered at the highest levels. In recent DnD versions they started putting the word 'Control' in front of 'Wizard', and gave them the role of area of effect on mobs.
In the Neverwinter MMO from mod 6 they killed off the importance of control, and practically every DPS class at potential can wipe mobs. The SS CW is clearly a DPS paragon class. We queue as DPS. Same as a GWF"
>"But really, this post is about DPS class paragons marginalized by poor DPS performance, and the SS CW is only one of them. Would you really propose to maintain the status quo because of something in the name, or lore? You're happy to players to have the same role as you, but be penalized heavily because of some word in the name? You want to complain that an HR pulls out bow, and a mob falls over? Does that make sense? I also hear quite often about how bad it was pre-module 6, when CWs rules the field with the DPS - over 2 years ago. This is just the kind of stuff people bring up to protect their own class relative power."
so I guess it's a toss up on what is lore and not for you, maybe you even feel the original lore is the one true canon. everybody has their opinion, that's fair and I wouldn't say you're wrong for that, I'm no D&D expert myself as I said before, so it's definantly not for me to debate. as far as if the games structure should represent the lore that is chosen, I do think that is entirely fair too. both of the big named mmorpgs that I've played work just like that. to me it would be weirder if there was a dev team working on a game with history that had no clue about it and just wanted to switch things up on a whim. that's just my opinion though, no hard feelings if I'm coming off the wrong way.
You can confirm numbers if you're quick enough:
21 DCs
13 GWFs
11 Palies
4 Mof CWs
3 GFs
3 SW
0 TR
0 HR
0 DPS CW
Just spoke to somebody in a CN run who recognized me as the "mad guy in the forums". Said his top guildies wiped in a TONG yesterday, because the party didn't fit the meta.
There.Is.A.Problem.
the point of the game is to try to find ways to make your toon better to go with the new content. there are players out there that test and test and test some more and put their builds and testing results online. they are worth looking into, researching and trying your best to make your toon better.
i love the CW, and its very sad that the "control" part of the wizard is becoming obsolete, but they can still do serious damage if you build them the right way.
and if you were a SW, i would tell you the same thing. My friend Pyrosorcerer has a kick HAMSTER SW that also does heaps of damage. there are players across each class that can tell you its possible to get a heap out of your toon if you just build it right.
Guild Leader - Valaurakari Ascension
VA is the creator and proud member of The Round Table Alliance
What this post is actually about, is any class paragon that is badly discriminated against (including the CW as a DPS role), and whether or not it's worth spending money (or sacrifice of other resources) to get then to their maximum potential.
Repeating the original post point: You spend very significant effort/resources/money maximizing your character for the final few % of your potential, but if you're still significantly behind other classes in the same role, you've wasted it - especially if you've spent money. It's worth the effort if you are a top choice at your maximum potential, but if you're far behind the DPS of choice classes, you've actually gained little from all that time/cost/money. Its the buff/debuff in the party pulling the party weight - not you.
There's another side to discrimination too. You ever notice how often the legendary rings dropped in eDemo for the GWF that destroyed the PainGiver chart? Rewards are not pure RNG, as also evidenced with heroics that get "Great Success", or "Encounter Completed". Healers get points for healing, tanks for absorbing damage, and DPS for causing damage. If you haven't made a point of noticing who's picking up the lion's share of the +5 Brutality rings, just randomly inspect near BIS DPS classes through search/inspect of high end locations. Massive, massive bias of legendary +5 Brutality rings for GWFs.
Some classes get an easy ride with great DPS, great survivability, great speed, and the lion's share of rewards as favourable RNG plays out over time. You want to be one of the "other classes", even spending real money, to find out that you're a poor version of that?