I did some calculating regarding fire archon vs sellsword.
So if we assume 4.5% dmg boost from the firearchon (7%/2+0.5+0.5) and assume that the Player does 50% of the Party dmg we get an overall dmg increase of 2.25%
If the Player does 33% of the Party dmg its 1.485%.
Now for the sellsword i used the graph u provided on the HAMSTERED site.
At +100% the debuff would be diminished to 8.2% and inceasing dps by (208.2/200)= 4.1%
At +150% it would be 2.77% dps boost
At +200% 1.66% dps
At +250% 1.136% dps
Pls correct me if i did mistakes
If we assume the atm best party comp. (Acdc/dodc/gf/op/dps) and 5 sellswords The debuffs range from atleast +150% to +200% (depending on the last dps personal debuffs etc.)
So with all that id say the difference is small and it depends on how much %dmg of the Party the dmg dealer is doing. But the sellsword is still a very good if not the best pick as summoned companion
I did some calculating regarding fire archon vs sellsword.
So if we assume 4.5% dmg boost from the firearchon (7%/2+0.5+0.5) and assume that the Player does 50% of the Party dmg we get an overall dmg increase of 2.25%
If the Player does 33% of the Party dmg its 1.485%.
Now for the sellsword i used the graph u provided on the HAMSTERED site.
At +100% the debuff would be diminished to 8.2% and inceasing dps by (208.2/200)= 4.1%
At +150% it would be 2.77% dps boost
At +200% 1.66% dps
At +250% 1.136% dps
Pls correct me if i did mistakes
If we assume the atm best party comp. (Acdc/dodc/gf/op/dps) and 5 sellswords
The debuffs range from atleast +150% to +200% (depending on the last dps personal debuffs etc.)
So with all that id say the difference is small and it depends on how much %dmg of the Party the dmg dealer is doing. But the sellsword is still a very good if not the best pick as summoned companion
Your math looks generally speaking correct (I didn't verify that you looked up the individual values correctly).
I agree that the difference might be pretty small. I also don't have a that much invested in this race, because I mainly play support classes. However, if I were to play devil's advocate, here would be my line of reasoning:
What I would possibly challenge is your assumptions that 1) 50% of party damage is coming from 1 player and 2) +7% when less than half health is equivalent to ~3.5%
1) In the "best party comp" you mentioned above, I'd say that the dps would be doing more like 60-70% of the party's damage.
2) Burst matters. And especially in boss fights, burning down the end quickly is helpful in a variety of dungeons. I'd speculate that in the average "hard" dungeon, it's more helpful for party clear speed to have +7% available for the latter half of the fight than to have +3.5% available starting right at the beginning, especially since many buffs/debuffs provided by party members take some time to spin up anyway. So in great parties, your damage burst spins up and coincides quite nicely with archon bonus and timing of when party buffs are ready for the big hit(s) on easier bosses. And for harder bosses having the +7% on the tail end can be pretty good even when compared to having +3.5% throughout.
And an additional couple consideration
3) You'd also have to take into the consideration that it usually takes ~1-2 seconds for companion debuff to trigger from the start of combat. But archon bonuses are available "all the time" assuming that conditions are met.
4) Archon bonus is active on the player, not the mobs. So for clearing trash I'd wager even just the +0.5% / +0.5% from the Air / Earth archon synergies starts looking pretty similar if not better than 10% debuff applied to a couple mobs, especially given the delay in applying the debuff.
But to reiterate. I'm only saying that no companion will be "too good to pass up" anymore. I think that Sword Trio + Dancing Shield will have their place. I think that damage companions are no longer "strictly inferior to the (formerly uncapped) debuffs" and instead can be better or worse case-by-case.
But at the end of the day , Sword Trio is still very strong for the reasons you point out above. It's possible that in the right situations a different damage pet might inch up your party dps a bit, but it won't be a massive difference.
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
the dino companion buff will give you full +5% damage if all party have one active, if not flat 1%, so ill keep my siegemaster till max player population has dino first ^^(but i expect they will be selling them after drop at high price in ah for sure making it harder to get).
My thoughts for next mod (as a DPS class) are like many have stated above:
1) Sellsword or equivalent for active. 2) Air Archon 3) Earth Archon 4) Siege Master 5) The new Dino pet that provides a 1% boost for every party member. +5% in total if every member has one.
Now, I'm a bit reserved when it comes to the Dino. Firstly, I'd like to see if it actually works. Secondly, I'd like to test it's behaviour considering Thorned Roots. Thirdly, I'd like to see if it's damage bonus properly works if multiple party members have one.
We all know the cummulative Archon bonus has been absolutely HAMSTERED for ages. Seems they are finally going to fix it. But, knowing Cryptic, chances are they're using the old Archon code to create the Dino. Surprising they managed to fix it, really, considering some off the offhand bonuses and some class features are still broken or absolutely useless since Mod 6. Hell, I'm half-expecting it takes them one patch before they break the 'fixed' Archon bonus again.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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FWIW, the Fire Archon got a "+0.5% bonus per other Active Archon" on live now.
I just tested, and it works. All 3 Archons work per their tooltips. I'd assume water probably works too, but I haven't tested because I don't have and wouldn't recommend (even with the fixed bonus i think it's silly bad)
For those of you who are curious, I tested using OP's Aura of Courage on live since it has easily readable/reproducible consistent results (it's helpful to have enough gear on to drop a dummy below half health, but you don't want your companion summoned interfering with your power).
So if you are running the 3 Archons you get 7% (Earth ~ *1.07) when you're full health, 6% (Air ~ *1.06) when enemy is not full health, and additional 8% (Fire ~ *1.08) when enemy is below half health.
Comments
I did some calculating regarding fire archon vs sellsword.
So if we assume 4.5% dmg boost from the firearchon (7%/2+0.5+0.5) and assume that the Player does 50% of the Party dmg we get an overall dmg increase of 2.25%
If the Player does 33% of the Party dmg its 1.485%.
Now for the sellsword i used the graph u provided on the HAMSTERED site.
At +100% the debuff would be diminished to 8.2% and inceasing dps by (208.2/200)= 4.1%
At +150% it would be 2.77% dps boost
At +200% 1.66% dps
At +250% 1.136% dps
Pls correct me if i did mistakes
If we assume the atm best party comp. (Acdc/dodc/gf/op/dps) and 5 sellswords
The debuffs range from atleast +150% to +200% (depending on the last dps personal debuffs etc.)
So with all that id say the difference is small and it depends on how much %dmg of the Party the dmg dealer is doing. But the sellsword is still a very good if not the best pick as summoned companion
I agree that the difference might be pretty small. I also don't have a that much invested in this race, because I mainly play support classes. However, if I were to play devil's advocate, here would be my line of reasoning:
What I would possibly challenge is your assumptions that 1) 50% of party damage is coming from 1 player and 2) +7% when less than half health is equivalent to ~3.5%
1) In the "best party comp" you mentioned above, I'd say that the dps would be doing more like 60-70% of the party's damage.
2) Burst matters. And especially in boss fights, burning down the end quickly is helpful in a variety of dungeons. I'd speculate that in the average "hard" dungeon, it's more helpful for party clear speed to have +7% available for the latter half of the fight than to have +3.5% available starting right at the beginning, especially since many buffs/debuffs provided by party members take some time to spin up anyway. So in great parties, your damage burst spins up and coincides quite nicely with archon bonus and timing of when party buffs are ready for the big hit(s) on easier bosses. And for harder bosses having the +7% on the tail end can be pretty good even when compared to having +3.5% throughout.
And an additional couple consideration
3) You'd also have to take into the consideration that it usually takes ~1-2 seconds for companion debuff to trigger from the start of combat. But archon bonuses are available "all the time" assuming that conditions are met.
4) Archon bonus is active on the player, not the mobs. So for clearing trash I'd wager even just the +0.5% / +0.5% from the Air / Earth archon synergies starts looking pretty similar if not better than 10% debuff applied to a couple mobs, especially given the delay in applying the debuff.
But to reiterate. I'm only saying that no companion will be "too good to pass up" anymore. I think that Sword Trio + Dancing Shield will have their place. I think that damage companions are no longer "strictly inferior to the (formerly uncapped) debuffs" and instead can be better or worse case-by-case.
But at the end of the day , Sword Trio is still very strong for the reasons you point out above. It's possible that in the right situations a different damage pet might inch up your party dps a bit, but it won't be a massive difference.
1) Sellsword or equivalent for active.
2) Air Archon
3) Earth Archon
4) Siege Master
5) The new Dino pet that provides a 1% boost for every party member. +5% in total if every member has one.
Now, I'm a bit reserved when it comes to the Dino. Firstly, I'd like to see if it actually works. Secondly, I'd like to test it's behaviour considering Thorned Roots. Thirdly, I'd like to see if it's damage bonus properly works if multiple party members have one.
We all know the cummulative Archon bonus has been absolutely HAMSTERED for ages. Seems they are finally going to fix it. But, knowing Cryptic, chances are they're using the old Archon code to create the Dino. Surprising they managed to fix it, really, considering some off the offhand bonuses and some class features are still broken or absolutely useless since Mod 6. Hell, I'm half-expecting it takes them one patch before they break the 'fixed' Archon bonus again.
I just tested, and it works. All 3 Archons work per their tooltips. I'd assume water probably works too, but I haven't tested because I don't have and wouldn't recommend (even with the fixed bonus i think it's silly bad)
For those of you who are curious, I tested using OP's Aura of Courage on live since it has easily readable/reproducible consistent results (it's helpful to have enough gear on to drop a dummy below half health, but you don't want your companion summoned interfering with your power).
So if you are running the 3 Archons you get 7% (Earth ~ *1.07) when you're full health, 6% (Air ~ *1.06) when enemy is not full health, and additional 8% (Fire ~ *1.08) when enemy is below half health.
Edit: thanks athena