off topic comments from the Private PvP queue thread

System · July 2017

This discussion was created from comments split from: Official Feedback Thread: M12 Private PvP Queues (& a bit about where PvP is headed).

exgardian · June 2017

marko0987 said:
I've seen low IL players with full prestige gear for "improved survivability" still die just as fast as other low IL toons bro....lmao. The stats and skill is DJ Khalid, the major key.

Nerf hrs.

Yup

mamalion1234 · July 2017

Diminishing CC Returns: this is something we want to do some experiments with, and add to PvP if those experiments go well. I AM answering to this.
Break the spirit an encounter from devoted cleric has a rule on its control utility.
When you first cast it on divinity mode the enemy get stun for 3 seconds, but if your purpose is to spam it you get penalty -1 seconds for each new try on divinity mode on its stun duration.

ALSO control wizard freezing ability cannot reapply on the same target for 5 seconds ( even if the target broke free in a split second.)

YOU can rework all control powers to work like those above for all classes.
examplesrepel: additional tooltip pvp: target is immune to repel push back for 5 seconds if he already got push.
hunter ranger crushing roots : target is immune to crushing roots for 2 seconds and 1.5 seconds on roots.
trickster rogue for each new courage breaker the slow duration is halved if the rogue use that daily every 10 seconds.\
guardian fighter grifon wrath : target is immune to griffon wrath stun for 1 second ( that skill has 3 charges).

IF the same control coming from different classes -items : you are immune to it for 3 seconds. example : ice knife prone then bull charge then lion mount prone that shouldnt happen.

trentbail21 · July 2017

Nerf gf, tr and hr burst damage and if they absolutely have to take or nerf my lion in dom ill be okay with that. But dont do it before so these 3 classes can just have field days on us like lambs to the slaughter.

bvira · July 2017

rgutscheradev said:
Thanks everyone for all the discussion!

I have another feedback request.

Dunno if you've read my comment from the arpen change post but I'll say it here again while we're at it:

Problem: Crit is useless
I really don't get the rationale behind Crit Resistance. Crit doing less dmg than non-crit at base crit severity just defies logic. This renders crit useless in PvP except for some rare instances. Not to mention CritR is killing an entire class (TR) who has 100% crit chance.

Moreover, since crit > power in PvE for dmg, most PvE players have crit enchants slotted which makes transitioning into PvP a lot more difficult. Unless one has a complete new set of enchants, people would be forced to play with a sub-optimal stat distribution. Similarly, it makes PvP players transitioning into PvE difficult as well.

Suggestion: Remove/reduce crit resistance
Having 100% crit chance actually makes you deal less dmg than having 0% crit chance....what is the logic? I'd say just remove Crit Resist entirely and boost Tenacity DR.

ayroux · July 2017

bvira said:

rgutscheradev said:
Thanks everyone for all the discussion!

I have another feedback request.
Dunno if you've read my comment from the arpen change post but I'll say it here again while we're at it:

Problem: Crit is useless
I really don't get the rationale behind Crit Resistance. Crit doing less dmg than non-crit at base crit severity just defies logic. This renders crit useless in PvP except for some rare instances. Not to mention CritR is killing an entire class (TR) who has 100% crit chance.

Moreover, since crit > power in PvE for dmg, most PvE players have crit enchants slotted which makes transitioning into PvP a lot more difficult. Unless one has a complete new set of enchants, people would be forced to play with a sub-optimal stat distribution. Similarly, it makes PvP players transitioning into PvE difficult as well.

Suggestion: Remove/reduce crit resistance
Having 100% crit chance actually makes you deal less dmg than having 0% crit chance....what is the logic? I'd say just remove Crit Resist entirely and boost Tenacity DR.

The issue with Crit Resistance ISNT that its a "bad idea" its that its applied in the WRONG spot in the formula. Right now it acts as a seperate "layer" of Damage Resistance. So the formula (simplified) looks like this:

Base Damage * (1+crit severity) * (1-crit resist) * (1-tenacity DR).

What MERELY NEEDS TO HAPPEN is add an extra "parentheses" to make it so crit resist only applies to CRIT SEVERITY not CRIT DAMAGE.

So the formula SHOULD be:

Base Damage * (1+(crit severity) * (1-crit resist)) * (1-tenacity DR).

So how does this change crits? Well lets add numbers!!! 75% crit severity and 43% crit resist and 43% tenacity values....

CURRENT : 10,000 base damage * (1+75%) * (1-43%) * (1-43%) = 5,685 (Note a NON CRIT would have HIT for 5,700)

NEW: 10,000 base damage * (1+(75%) * (1-43%)) * (1-43%) = 8,136 NEW crit damage! (same non crit: 5,700)

THE DIFFERENCE? CRIT RESIST ONLY REDUCES CRIT SEVERITY.... Thats ALL that needs to happen and now crits will actually deal more damage.

I dont like letting crits go "unchecked" in PVP. We can get too many sources of added crit severity - like a Vorpal which adds 50%. So I do think reducing the SEVERITY in PVP by Crit Resist works fine! It just needs to have that added parenthesis to make it ONLY reduce the crit severity and not the ENTIRE critical hit - thats the problem.

dmcewen · July 2017

Add DC to that list, AS needs a rework. With the piercing nerf, only a GF or a full team will kill a good DC.

dmcewen · July 2017

Add courage breaker to that list.

marnival · July 2017

marko0987 said:
Nerf gift of faith or make it not proc for your allies but insignias must stay then. Period.

But before we touch DCs and Palis, GFs have to be dealt with.

Yea they need a buff to survivability tnx for the input ........

marnival · July 2017

marko0987 said:

marnival said:

marko0987 said:
Nerf gift of faith or make it not proc for your allies but insignias must stay then. Period.

But before we touch DCs and Palis, GFs have to be dealt with.
Yea they need a buff to survivability tnx for the input ........
Gwfs do yeah. GFs have a shield so I'm not sure how much more survivability they need....lol

If they do something about lifegain in pvp we might be needing to take this further but my guess is once piercing respect tenacity gwfs survivability will be more then fine at high IL at least..

vordayn · July 2017

dmcewen said:
Add DC to that list, AS needs a rework. With the piercing nerf, only a GF or a full team will kill a good DC.

Change AS before changing GF and GWF burst damage, CC stun locks of classes? I don't think so.

dmcewen · July 2017

> @vordayn said:
> Add DC to that list, AS needs a rework. With the piercing nerf, only a GF or a full team will kill a good DC.
>
> Change AS before changing GF and GWF burst damage, CC stun locks of classes? I don't think so.

You probably play a pvp cleric, of course you wouldn't want AS to be change. Do you thing hr's and tr's want a nerf to piercing? Probably not.

The point is a lot of the ridiculous powers in pvp need reworks like CB, bull charge, AS, crushing roots, warlocks bargain and repel. IMO Mounts, insignia bonuses, feats, potions and boons need to be eliminated from the equation before you can really balance pvp and powers. No class wants to lose their advantages but if nothing changes pvp will continue to die.

vordayn · July 2017

dmcewen said:
> @vordayn said:

> Add DC to that list, AS needs a rework. With the piercing nerf, only a GF or a full team will kill a good DC.

>

> Change AS before changing GF and GWF burst damage, CC stun locks of classes? I don't think so.

You probably play a pvp cleric, of course you wouldn't want AS to be change. Do you thing hr's and tr's want a nerf to piercing? Probably not.

The point is a lot of the ridiculous powers in pvp need reworks like CB, bull charge, AS, crushing roots, warlocks bargain and repel. IMO Mounts, insignia bonuses, feats, potions and boons need to be eliminated from the equation before you can really balance pvp and powers. No class wants to lose their advantages but if nothing changes pvp will continue to die.

I agree with that, a lot needs changing. I play CW, DC, and to a lesser extent GWF and SW in PvP. But gearing and getting boons is so time consuming, in the more recent mods I've dropped off the other classes and focused on CW and DC.

Right now, there are often only a certain way to play a class because of how broken things are. In order to make the playing field more interesting and varied, something has to give to equalise the field and prevent immortality, tankiness, endless shields, endless stamina, one-shots, one-rotates and stunlock characters.

I would love to play a righteous cleric, but right now their damage sucks, no burst damage, and DoTs which can be easily mitigated (by AS funnily enough). So I'm sorta stuck with my faithful cleric. When I play on my CW against other faithful clerics, I know how much they struggle to stay in their shield, and how easy it is for a CW to dislodge them, root them with icy rays, then prone with ice knife. They are fairly simple to kill or at least control with a CW. A lot of complaints against DCs are from classes that cannot control. But we are at a impasse, whereby if you take away the AS from the DC, then they will be as vulnerable against any class as they are against a CW (or a GF/GWF that uses mount/artifact knockback/root powers once outside their shield).

Having said that, one class should not have an answer always for each and every class. Each class has their advantages/disadvantages and counters. If there is a DC, then send one of the party members that can deal with them, via control, or burst damage. PvP is a competitive team play, not one class to rule them all.

Nerfing a class singularly without looking at what else is broken about other classes is not the way to go. It has to be implemented in an equal manner to support varied builds and ILs.

trentbail21 · July 2017

@rgutscheradev

My humble suggestions take them for what you will I just thought I would lay them on you and see what you think.

1. Buff gwf and sw dmg.
2. Nerf gfs damage.
3. Make a universal daily timer of 30 seconds so dailies cant be spammed.
4. Keep the piercing dmg change thats on the preview server. (lets see how it actually goes for like 1 mod and talk about it again)
5. Nerf endless consumption.
6. Nerf wilds medicine (Hr crazy healing feat by like 50%)
7. Make the new shirt and pants set not give so much life steal severity or reflected damage when it procs.
8. Make healing insignias like vampires craving and survivors blessing heal like every 3rd time or only once every 2 or 3 seconds like the crit healing one does right now.
9. Plantar vitality seems to heal too much maybe im just crazy but it does seem that way to me.
10. Make gauntlgyrm solo que only too so it will actually pop and we can complete the campaign finally.
11. Put tenacity on peoples character instead of the armor so people would at least have a fair shot when it comes to tenacity.
12. Make crits more useful in domination. Right now with the 40% crit resistance we have crits do less then non crits which is kind of insane.

There will MANY more people that are interested in pvp after these changes if you did them. 3 classes have pretty much been shunned out of higher level pvp matches focus on them and you will see a resurgence of talented players if you can do this while making over-performing classes slightly less effective im sure alot of people would give you all alot of praise.

marnival · July 2017

trentbail21 said:
@rgutscheradev

My humble suggestions take them for what you will I just thought I would lay them on you and see what you think.

1. Buff gwf and sw dmg.
2. Nerf gfs damage.
3. Make a universal daily timer of 30 seconds so dailies cant be spammed.
4. Keep the piercing dmg change thats on the preview server. (lets see how it actually goes for like 1 mod and talk about it again)
5. Nerf endless consumption.
6. Nerf wilds medicine (Hr crazy healing feat by like 50%)
7. Make the new shirt and pants set not give so much life steal severity or reflected damage when it procs.
8. Make healing insignias like vampires craving and survivors blessing heal like every 3rd time or only once every 2 or 3 seconds like the crit healing one does right now.
9. Plantar vitality seems to heal too much maybe im just crazy but it does seem that way to me.
10. Make gauntlgyrm solo que only too so it will actually pop and we can complete the campaign finally.
11. Put tenacity on peoples character instead of the armor so people would at least have a fair shot when it comes to tenacity.
12. Make crits more useful in domination. Right now with the 40% crit resistance we have crits do less then non crits which is kind of insane.

There will MANY more people that are interested in pvp after these changes if you did them. 3 classes have pretty much been shunned out of higher level pvp matches focus on them and you will see a resurgence of talented players if you can do this while making over-performing classes slightly less effective im sure alot of people would give you all alot of praise.

1. Sure nerf both survivability then about buff gwfs damage simply put NO change how stack work maby.
2. Nop
3. yes more like 1 min on the most game breaking ones.
4. yes
5. yes
6. After piercing changes? really how about NO unless you buff overall damage considerable.
7. yes
8. sure why not
9. every 10 sec hardly
10. absolutly
11. 100% yes
12. move it to crit severity like bvira suggested...

schietindebux · July 2017

I suggest not to nerf or rework classes according to PVP problems.
These problems will never be solved by reworking classes at first.
First you need to downgear, afterwards you can try to balance.
PVP needs more player but they won´t step into PVP until they get a fair chance.
No downgear, no PVP, or t least separate those groups.

Watch some of those endbuilds in PVP.
Near 100% deflectchance, 85% deflectseverity for TR combinde with Boons like Fey thistle or frozen reflection etc... that class is unkillable at endgame.
GF´s burst is a problem that occured the more boons, feats and gear came up in PVP, damage is rising and rising.
Piercing... was broken and silly from the start though. Hunter with zero arp tons of power and recovery , or whatever, melting you in seconds.
CW with 15k recovery can control every opponent till nirvana (without killing him), but you spend your time at the cealing, frosted 4ever.
Build diversity is a good thing, but these are abominations, due to a completely broken system.

If things stay as they are, no matter if or if not tenacity, arp resist etc. get reworked, you will have no change at all.
My personal impression, before the statcurves got a rework and we had deminishing returns, PVP was somehow more enjoyable.
Now you have stat excesses leading to broken setups, dailies are chained etc.. Those player face PVP newbies in Hotenow...lol.

What is the purpose of:
1. running an invincible toon/setup in PVP and same way
2. crying about the fact that noone is dying in matches
3. write posts like: "I want that class xy to be nerfed bc he can kill my class", to stay invincible
4. syncing queues or running semipremades for Domination, knowing you get matched against lowbies
5. wondering why playerbase is melting away since years
6. denying to draw any consequences from it

No skill based competition without significant changes !

schietindebux · July 2017

True to some degree.
TR can oneshot on lower IL
Hunter can kill on low IL
Piercing will be adressed ...
GF way overperforms on lower level if you compare them to let's say warlock or GWF imo.
There is no competition between those groups of BIS and casuals.
Due to powercreep there is no competition between different classes.

armadeonx · July 2017

Eh what? Don't touch Feytouched - in PvE its full uptime is needed for Paladins. I don't see cooldowns on Vorpal, Dread, Lightning or any other DPS enchantment - this is a support enchantment.

schietindebux · July 2017

armadeonx said:
Eh what? Don't touch Feytouched - in PvE its full uptime is needed for Paladins. I don't see cooldowns on Vorpal, Dread, Lightning or any other DPS enchantment - this is a support enchantment.

..if it works correct for your class.
For warlock the dps buff (18%) is not working after using an aoe like Pillar of power. The buff vanishes and doesn´t get reapplied if you do not wait for some time (20 seconds-buff runs of), the debuff works correct as far as I can tell.
So running a dungeon fast guarnties you to get that 18% buff one time... at the start of the dungeon.
No clue about other classes and aoe.
For Hellbringer-Warlock that enchant is super broken in a negative way.
Fixing it to work permanently would be nice. A Vorpal spends about 24% + dps for a 100% critbuild, a Dread more than 30% fro some classes/builds, not to talk about lightning for CW class. Nerfing that enchant would just destroy it in PVE.

jaime4312 · July 2017

I have been thinking of something similar to @trentbail21 's suggestion for a long time now as in its current state, once you cap DR in pve and because of enemie's armour pen, negation ends up being mostly a fashion item lol. I too though of 15% asnot too low nor too high, classes without true dodge (SW) or dodge at all (GWF) would benefit quite a bit from that.

United (GF) and countless scars (GWF) could get reworked in a similar way too!

SW needs a total rework, it really is the GWF of the ranged classes in the sense of being super gear dependent and arguably has it harder= more vulnerable to cc, a lot less damage even if specced for hb fury and capstone and power simply are too underpowered vs other players (heck, it is underpowered in pve if you compare perfomance with other classes). Hb SW should be able to inflict some serious damage, something needs to be done about, the class is mostly used for unkillable troll builds, I see SW as the one and only striker class where you have real tradeoffs however the options are excellent survability laughable dps (SB) or okay survability low dps (HB) o.O Where's the dps?The class is in such a dire situation that even nerfed SE being penalized by both tenacity and crit resistance will still more damage than SW and TR will still have far more survability o.O

@rgutscheradev

I know it can't be done soon but you should take a look at SW, it is and very bad spot right now especially in pvp.

trentbail21 · July 2017

@ayroux
Theres a difference between broken equipment/artifacts/enchantments and boons. Personally I wouldn't be too bothered if they took away the sh boons in domination but Id be really confused why they would take away all the other boons from the other campaigns.

Just trying to set up your stats perfectly would be such a pain in the !$@ if you had to do a respec of one or two loadouts and purposely not pick any boons just to see what your stats would be in DOM.

@jaime4312
If they did that to the gf feat and countless scars that would be nice but 15% less incoming damage would be way too OP as a feat. The only way that should be so strong is if it was in the 4th or 5th tier of the sentinel tree (after sentinel tree rework of course). Personally I haven't used a negation or countless scars in like 3 mods but if they did do something like this I could see maybe using it again

off topic comments from the Private PvP queue thread

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