PvP Gear - remove it?

armadeonx
armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
Just putting this out here as a thought:

Why not completely remove pvp gear and give everyone a fixed tenacity stat? Extra tenacity could be linked to pvp boon progression?

This would (to my mind) have two immediate benefits:

1. new players entering pvp would automatically gain tenacity and reduce the slaughterhouse effect somewhat.

2. existing players wouldn't need to have two sets of armor clogging up inventory space.

I know it wouldn't solve the enchantment slotting problem but it could be a step in the right direction?
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Comments

  • sundance777
    sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)
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  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)

    umm where are the patch notes for this 30% frost resist to everyone lol ???

    and for your info players already get base tenacity for free in pvp even wearing no tenacity gear
  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @armadeonx

    dude even pve players have multiple armor sets and gear "clogging" up space if you are hard up for a few inv slots and a "dedicated player" get some bag space

    and for your info players already get base tenacity for free in pvp even wearing no tenacity gear


    you would still need different gear sets for pvp vs pve this is not lord of the rings here its not one gear set to rule them all .... your build would still need to be tweaked in dual spec pvp vs pve mode

    so you/ players would still lose matches even with all the base tenacity vs other player cause your gear/build is not optimal

    I think your suggestion is just a lazy fix and players would still get rolled with thier pve power selection and build and then be unable to blame tenacity anymore it would still be a slaughter fest

    and none of this matters unless all guild boons/potions are stripped from pvp and or base loadsouts are given to everyone thus removing diversity and no "bad build/power" choices can be made while still allowwing gear progresstion and pvp gear as rewards giving a few % boost in stats no more
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • rustlord
    rustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)

    here I thought I won some hidden contest! but yeah in the spirit of giving away weird magical items, why not give one that grants 2K free tenacity
  • disposablehero#5903
    disposablehero#5903 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    OR, players could just utilize the PvP gear available already. Why take away things that people have to work for? If there is no incentive to play, why bother playing?
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  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    OR, players could just utilize the PvP gear available already. Why take away things that people have to work for? If there is no incentive to play, why bother playing?

    People have incentive to play now, but they're not. It is almost completely impossible to earn enuff glory for the current PvP gear unless you are in a PvP guild. If you are not in one of those guilds, you are likely never going to win enuff to "earn" that gear.

  • bajancloak
    bajancloak Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 30 Arc User
    You don't need to be in a PVP Guild to "earn" PVP Gear. All you need is at least 1 win a day. And I am almost certain if you pug 10 games a day you have to get at least get 1 win during that time.
  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    also adding a tenacity item and not putting a cap just makes people with tenacity gear even tankier and solves nothing

    adding this everfrost item 30% resist just trivialized end game content as well cause it stacks with other everfrost resist getting 60% resist
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    I do not PVP, but agree with @kalina311

    "Free" Tenacity will not make PVE gear or builds work in PVP.

    You can clear pve content in pvp gear, just not at most optimum levels. You sure as hell can't be competitive in pvp with pve gear and builds (at least not dps classes).
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    You don't need to be in a PVP Guild to "earn" PVP Gear. All you need is at least 1 win a day. And I am almost certain if you pug 10 games a day you have to get at least get 1 win during that time.

    I play ~90 mins per day. I am queued for PvP for all of that time unless I am in a skirmish or a dungeon. PvP queue has popped 2 times in the last 3 weeks. I have PvP'd less than 10 times in the last 3 months. I honestly could not tell you what the glory reward is for a win... it has been so long since I actually won a match. It has been more than 10 matches ago. Probably closer to 20. I DO know that you get between 75 - 150 for participation rewards... IF you get 300+ points during the match. Some pre-mades are pugstompers, & won't let you get the points. I did an evaluation a few months ago & determined that it takes about 275matches, with rewards, to get enuff glory to buy the entry level 60 gear. That information is useless now (just like the lvl 60 gear) because I am in the lvl 70 slot. So, lets see. Lvl 70 Prestige gear is 80,ooo glory. Assuming the maximum glory reward of 150, that is 534 matches. But, hey... PUG players are just too lazy to gear up properly. Amirite?

  • haden42ee
    haden42ee Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 62 Arc User
    Getting enough Tenacity shouldn't be an issue anymore - there are Warborn items in Trade Bar store and Company blue items (exact replica of Warborn) in guild store. Diminishing returns sets in sharp around 2k Tenacity, so you don't even need a full set.

    The other aspects (proper PVP build, guild boons, ...) remain real issues however.
  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    @haden42ee

    umm you do need a full set or at least 3/4 with the 50k hit point armor and 2 tenacity rings
  • haden42ee
    haden42ee Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 62 Arc User
    How certain are you of this? I freely admit that my opinion is conjecture, based on tooltip values while wearing various amounts of Tenacity. I'm inclined to believe these values, but I have no tested evidence. Also, game tooltips admittedly have a spotty track record.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    I was very aware when I started the topic that there'd be a number of players who didn't like the idea simply because they've already worked for their pvp gear and sit at maxed tenacity - as such any change that 'devalued' their gear would be unwelcome.

    The thing is, most dedicated pvp'ers have max tenacity so this idea wouldn't negatively impact on matches between these players, it would however change the dynamic against newer players or those who like to 'dip in and out'. A positive from this would be that newer players and pvp 'part-timers' would be more inclined to queue. This would be a net benefit to the existing pvp community because more people queuing / getting into pvp means more matches and less 100 - 0 boring camp-fests.

    Dedicated players would still win the majority of matches simply through better tactical understanding, but their opponents would've had a fighting chance and probably got some enjoyment out of the process.
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  • forumnamesuxs
    forumnamesuxs Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 490 Arc User
    I for one wouldn't mind dumping both pvp armor and rings. I don't care how hard I worked to get them. Make them useless if it means I can have more interesting PvP matches. I don't see why people have to be so selfish about these things.
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  • nezdin#5514
    nezdin#5514 Member Posts: 259 Arc User
    @wintersmoke

    2 times in 3 weeks? Someone else recently said they queue for ages without any popping. In my experience the queue pops every couple of minutes. Waiting 5 minutes for the queue to pop is a rare case; it usually pops in under 3. I therefore had little trouble getting all my pvp gear and glory quite fast. Maybe very few players pvp in your geographical location? I'm in Europe.
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  • disposablehero#5903
    disposablehero#5903 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    > @wintersmoke said
    >
    > People have incentive to play now, but they're not. It is almost completely impossible to earn enuff glory for the current PvP gear unless you are in a PvP guild. If you are not in one of those guilds, you are likely never going to win enuff to "earn" that gear.

    People who refuse to play tried it once without any tenacity and got rolled, ask around. It's fairly easy to grind for glory too, all you need to do is make sure your gear is at least decent, maybe use a glory booster, and pot up. There is no sense in not giving yourself every advantage available especially if you're running alone. You might also benefit from bringing a friend or two, even just one other person can turn things around in your favor.
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  • urlord283
    urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    I don't think it is a good idea for the game... keep the gear and split the queues
  • hasil#2563
    hasil#2563 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    I've said this elsewhere, but they really need to just take gear, buffs, and boons out of the equation. Normalize it all like GW2 PvP does. Yes, people with BIS gear will be mad and cry and may stop playing. BUT you'll get far more people who actually PvP now for the rewards if they stand a chance of getting them instead of getting steamrolled by BIS and buff-stacking monsters.
  • plavia
    plavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    PVP gear was not invented to save your life, its to "allow" you upgrade another set of gear.
    if you have a better idea how to do it, i am sure the dev will be happy to hear.
    so far only PVP set manage to do it. black ice, relic or frostborn are complete fail
  • disposablehero#5903
    disposablehero#5903 Member Posts: 128 Arc User

    I've said this elsewhere, but they really need to just take gear, buffs, and boons out of the equation. Normalize it all like GW2 PvP does. Yes, people with BIS gear will be mad and cry and may stop playing. BUT you'll get far more people who actually PvP now for the rewards if they stand a chance of getting them instead of getting steamrolled by BIS and buff-stacking monsters.

    No gear, buffs, or boons? That removes a large portion of strategy from the equation, and if it were implemented we would still be left with cheese powers, but then there would be no way to soften the blow from said cheese. Balanced powers across all classes would go a long way to fixing things, but the likelihood of that happening is similar to what you're proposing.

    A better solution that does not involve developer intervention is incredibly simple, all it involves is a bit of reading. Players informing themselves of what to expect in a typical PvP match in regards to Tenacity, buffs, and gear helps said players tremendously and gives them an edge. If more people were willing to read about this sort of thing before diving in and then complaining when they get melted, our PvP community would be far more competitive and flourish despite the flaws of the system. A PvP environment devoid of unknown factors, no incentives to continue playing, and the same strategies over and over will stagnate quickly. Our current environment is entertaining because you don't know what you're going to be facing in the next match, it could be a well oiled engine of death with sword arms, hopeless noobs, or even a random group of people who play well and employ an actual strategy. Reducing player input to choosing powers is ridiculous.
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  • forumnamesuxs
    forumnamesuxs Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 490 Arc User
    PvP in this game is in dire need of a fix. Gear gap removal, or at least diminishing it, would make the actual matches more fun.
    The "will my team mates and/or opponents be geared properly" is not something I consider entertaining, but rather a factor that makes me think twice about queueing up at all.
    Removing the gear gap still wouldn't remove character builds in terms of feats, and weapon/armor enchants, so we would still have that.
    Currently, absolutely no amount of advice or research can make a new player competitive, or even slightly useful, in PvP.
    This means that Cryptic is alienating potential players who are looking for a game to PvP in.

    Neverwinter has the best combat mechanic out of all multiplayer games I've played in a very long time, and wasting that on a stubborn "we have to suck your bank account dry before you can compete, or you have to grind for several months before getting to do what they want to do" attitude towards new and returning players, is imo no longer sustainable for the game.
    I don't agree that boons should be taken out of the equation, though, but it should add towards a slight stat increase, as proposed by several people already, instead of giving the full amount from each boon.
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  • disposablehero#5903
    disposablehero#5903 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    >Currently, absolutely no amount of advice or research can make a new player competitive, or even slightly useful, in PvP.

    Maybe not against an entire team of maxed out people, but that's an extreme example. We use a great deal of extreme examples around here I've noticed.
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  • sundance777
    sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)

    umm where are the patch notes for this 30% frost resist to everyone lol ???

    and for your info players already get base tenacity for free in pvp even wearing no tenacity gear
    Patch Notes for NW.80.20170515E.3 - Players who complete the quest, Secrets of the Cocoon, now receive a key item that gives 30% Everfrost Resist. Players who already completed it will receive this item in in-game mail.
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  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    kalina311 said:

    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)

    umm where are the patch notes for this 30% frost resist to everyone lol ???

    and for your info players already get base tenacity for free in pvp even wearing no tenacity gear
    Patch Notes for NW.80.20170515E.3 - Players who complete the quest, Secrets of the Cocoon, now receive a key item that gives 30% Everfrost Resist. Players who already completed it will receive this item in in-game mail.
    old news and you chose to ignore my point ... what about the part that your request free tenacity even tho we are given free tenacity ???
  • sundance777
    sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    kalina311 said:

    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)

    umm where are the patch notes for this 30% frost resist to everyone lol ???

    and for your info players already get base tenacity for free in pvp even wearing no tenacity gear
    Patch Notes for NW.80.20170515E.3 - Players who complete the quest, Secrets of the Cocoon, now receive a key item that gives 30% Everfrost Resist. Players who already completed it will receive this item in in-game mail.
    old news and you chose to ignore my point ... what about the part that your request free tenacity even tho we are given free tenacity ???
    You asked for the patch notes, I provided them. I am not requesting free tenacity. I think the original post is referring to a mechanism where you don't need to obtain additional tenacity from gear which could be to eliminate the need to carry multiple sets of gear for specific purposes, one with frost, one with tenacity.
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  • kalina311
    kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited June 2017

    kalina311 said:

    kalina311 said:

    They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)

    umm where are the patch notes for this 30% frost resist to everyone lol ???

    and for your info players already get base tenacity for free in pvp even wearing no tenacity gear
    Patch Notes for NW.80.20170515E.3 - Players who complete the quest, Secrets of the Cocoon, now receive a key item that gives 30% Everfrost Resist. Players who already completed it will receive this item in in-game mail.
    old news and you chose to ignore my point ... what about the part that your request free tenacity even tho we are given free tenacity ???
    You asked for the patch notes, I provided them. I am not requesting free tenacity. I think the original post is referring to a mechanism where you don't need to obtain additional tenacity from gear which could be to eliminate the need to carry multiple sets of gear for specific purposes, one with frost, one with tenacity.
    your exact quote .. and yes you ARE requesting free tenacity.. to which I replied we DO get FREE tenacity in pvp



    @sundance777 said

    "They are giving everyone 30% frost resist so we might as well get tenacity too :)"
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    To be clear, yes the suggestion was to add the tenacity players currently get from gear to their base stats and render the pvp gear obsolete.

    The point is 'why should survivability be based on how much pvp you play?'.

    This alienates non-dedicated players and scares off new people from enjoying this aspect of the game - which has the knock-on effect of (further) reducing the amount of people that play it.

    As I said, it would have no effect on matches between dedicated players but would reduce the amount of 1-shot campfests that new players currently experience.
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  • disposablehero#5903
    disposablehero#5903 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    Warborn gear is a thing, and doesn't cost glory or seals to acquire. They do cost trade bars of course, but that's another argument entirely.
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  • jojo#2051
    jojo#2051 Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    If someone doesn't even bother buying warborn gloves for less than 8k AD then he deserves to be stomped to the ground. There is guild equipment and warborn to get enough tenacity for the start. It's not that hard.
    If we remove tenacity there will only be those maxed out chars killing low IL players while someone with mediocre IL who bothers getting PvP equip will outperform an endgame PvE player now.