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Forums > Home› Neverwinter Discussion › General Discussion (PC)

Knockback in Dungeons.

danievdwdanievdw Member Posts: 31 Arc User
in General Discussion (PC)
Hi guys.

Doing a friendly suggestion here. Especially to GFs, not to use attacks with knockback in dungeons. It is great for solo play yes, but in dungeons, especially the tanks, should keep the bosses and mobs tight and facing one direction. Not moving around. This gives the party best chance of succeeding. AoE heals/dmg/debuffs/buffs all require as many targets in the location around the tank as possible.

Comments

  • UnknownUnknown
    edited April 2017
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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    It seems almost every class has a knockback skill and they are all irritating, I wish they'd switch them to knock 'downs'.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • danievdwdanievdw Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Well, to some extend I can understand when a DC heals with a low il tank, and use Sunburst when he gets swarmed, but for a tank to use it is just beyond me.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    Knockback in team play is very annoying, no matter who is using it.
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    What is the Pally power with an AOE knockback? I hate that power.
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • UnknownUnknown
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  • evaliraevalira Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 245 Arc User
    danievdw said:

    Especially to GFs

    Haven't seen any GF's use knockbacks in dungeons for a long time. Perhaps you confused them for Pally tanks?

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    This is a very old complaint dating back to Mod 2 when crowd control was very important and DCs gained divinity by spamming sunburst.
    GFs are NOT the most common culprits.
    In fact, GFs were historically the most irritated by pushing b/c their job included gathering mob packs together.

    The only significant GF push powers are Frontline Surge (an AoE knock-down... doesn't push very far at all), Bull Charge (single target) and Indomitable Strength (single target daily).
    The latter two are almost never used in party PvE.

    OP must have been running with a new or inexperienced GF. Very few GF'S push in PvE. A non-issue.
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    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    danievdw said:

    Especially to GFs

    GF has Charging Bull that sends a single target flying. Yes there is no reason for using this. You might also see Frontline Surge, which is actually a knockdown. While it does pushes the mob back a bit, you actually want this if the GF has Crushing Pin. I myself try to go past the mobs and push them back towards the party.

    The Pally skill that sends everything flying is terrible. In CN, I use that as a tell that the pally won't be able to tank Orcus and get out of there.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    defiantone99 said:

    I used to push on purpose with FLS on my GWF, it is funny to hear people scream like kids.

    Not surprising and so hilarious, good one.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User
    as a cw i dont recommend ice storm daily its really annoying too
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    @arcanjo86
    "as a cw i dont recommend ice storm"
    This. I didn't want to cast shade on any one class, but OP is dead wrong about blaming GFs.
    Inexperienced CWs casting Ice Storm are the most irritating push perpetrators.
    DCs casting non-divine Sunburst are second.
    Neither are optimal spells for any CW builds I'm aware of. There's just no reason to use them.
    Edit
    ^Nor any DC build.
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    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • danievdwdanievdw Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    dread4moor said:

    @arcanjo86

    "as a cw i dont recommend ice storm"

    This. I didn't want to cast shade on any one class, but OP is dead wrong about blaming GFs.

    Inexperienced CWs casting Ice Storm are the most irritating push perpetrators.

    DCs casting non-divine Sunburst are second.

    Neither are optimal spells for any CW builds I'm aware of. There's just no reason to use them.

    Edit

    ^Nor any DC build.

    You are right, I should probably have stated "Tanks " opposed to GFs. It created the wrong impression. In my defense, I have not seen a OP in Epic dung using knockback, but had this happen several times with GF.

  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    i only use that if i am near pitfall traps in Cragmire crypt, sending the enemies to the pits. doesnt always work with some knockback resisting mobs. like undead ogre wights and capt blackmire.
    any other dungeons i switch for other skills.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Any pally using Relentless in any 5 man content has no clue what they are doing. It's good for soloing simply because it covers distances well and interrupts enemies but it would do that just as well with a knock 'down'.

    Pallys asked for this change during their last "review" but were ignored.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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    Barney McRustbucket: GF
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  • danievdwdanievdw Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    I don't even use it on solo. Perhaps a knockdown would be useful yes.
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 669 Arc User
    I agree that changing it to knockdown would be optimal, but the reason for a paladin to use relentless avenger in a dungeon is to quickly gain the aggression of the entire mob. Maybe you are more concerned with fast dungeon times than with not dying, but that is the paladin's primary job, to try to keep the entire party alive.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,158 Arc User
    Random player: Stop pushing them!

    Me: Then keep them out of my face.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    Tanks should be grouping mobs together, not spreading them everywhere. Knockback leads to messy unorganised runs and is a good sign that ppl don't know what they should be doing. It's one of the main reasons for me wanting to leave a group. I don't mind low IL, I don't mind taking a little bit longer, but knockback (particularly ice storm) - grrrrrrr
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    dread4more cites mod 2, but it really goes back to Beta. It should also be explained that before mod 5, Sunburst had the Knockback effect ONLY in Divine mode and encounters generated Divinity. Many times, a DC would mess up the order they hit TAB and instead of gaining Divinity, expend it and through the pulled mobs everywhere, usually 1 second before the Shard arrived.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    True, @pitshade . Sunburst prior to the 1st DC rework (advent of Empowerment) worked as you describe. I misspoke re the old divine mode suburst. It's been a long time.
    But I mentioned Mod2 because that was when "dungeon hour" was at it's peak (sigh... don't you miss those days? ) and "Death is the best Crowd Control" was still optional instead of law-of-the-land as it is today.
    One more note for the OP:
    I ran a few T2s last night using Frontline on one of my GFs.
    The push is negligible.
    It is a knockdown. No one complained. Party damage was actually slightly higher on ACT bc of crushing pin.
    Still, I don't recommend it on most GFS builds unless you use the feat for Threat generation on Frontline.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    I ran FBI recently with an OP, and they were quite upfront about using Ra to help increase their threat. We managed just fine.

    The key, though, is that they told us they'd be using it, and why. A bit of communication goes a long way.
  • oliboypholiboyph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 627 Arc User
    namelesshero347 said:

    danievdw said:

    Especially to GFs

    GF has Charging Bull that sends a single target flying. Yes there is no reason for using this. You might also see Frontline Surge, which is actually a knockdown. While it does pushes the mob back a bit, you actually want this if the GF has Crushing Pin. I myself try to go past the mobs and push them back towards the party.

    The Pally skill that sends everything flying is terrible. In CN, I use that as a tell that the pally won't be able to tank Orcus and get out of there.
    A good practice here is to get behind the mob and knock them towards your dps. Though this skill is far less annoying compared to Pally's Relentless Avenger.
    "As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
  • danievdwdanievdw Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    kharkov58 said:

    I agree that changing it to knockdown would be optimal, but the reason for a paladin to use relentless avenger in a dungeon is to quickly gain the aggression of the entire mob. Maybe you are more concerned with fast dungeon times than with not dying, but that is the paladin's primary job, to try to keep the entire party alive.

    No idea what build you are running, but I have no problem holding aggro with my OP, and I never use any knockback skills on any of my characters, and yet have no issue in any group or solo play. If you can't hold the mob in a tight spot, so your group can take them down, then you should probably consider playing a DPS character, or healing maybe... or more likely, just stop being a troll ?
  • danievdwdanievdw Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    The way I see it. There are very few and limited instances and scenarios where knockback can be 'useful' . In the best of those cases you reduce the number of mobs that need to be killed by 2 or maybe 3 if you get a lucky grouping. Those 3 mobs could have been killed in not much longer time.

    That leaves me with the conclusion :

    a) You can either ignore this, continue to reduce the overall effectiveness of your entire party, on top of annoying everyone. Some people will actually leave a instance where people use knockback as a means to troll. Wasting a lot more of your time having to wait for new party member to join and catch up.

    b) Make sure you have a nice shiny new build for group activity in your shiny new loadout, that contains no knockback. Increasing effectiveness and overall team morale.
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