Premades: why do you still queue? Why don't you take it to preview?

nezdin · April 2017

Fact 1 is that there is no commitment on the part of the devs to implement solo queue, and they are unwilling to share any information about why.
Fact 2 is that every time one decides to queue for domination it is highly likely that he/she ends up in a premade vs pug match.
==> wasted time for everyone.

So premades, why do you even queue? And more to the point, since so much time is wasted for everyone, why do you not take it to the preview server?

Premades/pvp guilds can coordinate because they know eachother. Pugs cannot benefit from such relationships. Surely the non-wasted time gained for you vastly outweighs the costs of the couple of minutes it takes to switch to the preview server. At the same time, if all the premade action is there, the live server will allow a semblance of a solo queue for those who pug; or at least move towards that direction.
==> Less time wasted for everyone.

mamalion1234 · April 2017

nezdin#5514 said:
Fact 1 is that there is no commitment on the part of the devs to implement solo queue, and they are unwilling to share any information about why.
Fact 2 is that every time one decides to queue for domination it is highly likely that he/she ends up in a premade vs pug match.
==> wasted time for everyone.

So premades, why do you even queue? And more to the point, since so much time is wasted for everyone, why do you not take it to the preview server?

Premades/pvp guilds can coordinate because they know eachother. Pugs cannot benefit from such relationships. Surely the non-wasted time gained for you vastly outweighs the costs of the couple of minutes it takes to switch to the preview server. At the same time, if all the premade action is there, the live server will allow a semblance of a solo queue for those who pug; or at least move towards that direction.
==> Less time wasted for everyone.

ONE of the reasons are the leaderboard i can say look in pvp sections how well know how to avoid the reset on leaderboard.
OR i need to go to past? ONce UPON a time leaderboard was better than what we have now. SOME "top pvp" disconnected during matches leaving so the game wouldnt register their defeat. ME? i didnt care about leaderboard top pvp cared and did those bs.

Unknown · April 2017

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vinceent1 · April 2017

nezdin#5514 said:
Fact 1 is that there is no commitment on the part of the devs to implement solo queue, and they are unwilling to share any information about why.
Fact 2 is that every time one decides to queue for domination it is highly likely that he/she ends up in a premade vs pug match.
==> wasted time for everyone.

So premades, why do you even queue? And more to the point, since so much time is wasted for everyone, why do you not take it to the preview server?

Premades/pvp guilds can coordinate because they know eachother. Pugs cannot benefit from such relationships. Surely the non-wasted time gained for you vastly outweighs the costs of the couple of minutes it takes to switch to the preview server. At the same time, if all the premade action is there, the live server will allow a semblance of a solo queue for those who pug; or at least move towards that direction.
==> Less time wasted for everyone.

point is, that pvp in this game is used and probably meant to be just spare some time there (or waste if you want)

many premades are just queing there in between waiting for dungeon or raids party are created (their own words). So basically pve players just spend some time in pvp in between waiting for pve instances and rule there. yeah pvp in this game is as absurdly bad. Deal with it like myself. I rather quit this game mode altogether

nezdin · April 2017

mamalion1234 said:

ONE of the reasons are the leaderboard i can say look in pvp sections how well know how to avoid the reset on leaderboard.
OR i need to go to past? ONce UPON a time leaderboard was better than what we have now. SOME "top pvp" disconnected during matches leaving so the game wouldnt register their defeat. ME? i didnt care about leaderboard top pvp cared and did those bs.

Are you seriously telling me that most pvp players from pvp guilds care more about a stupid ranking than having fun? I find it hard to believe that this would be what deters them moving their matches to the preview server.

defiantone99 said:
I would think that they would move on to a different game, this one sure is not going to change. They are really stubborn.lol

The idea to play on preview is not mine. Some guys I met in matches told me that they used to play on preview in premades. This is obviously not the case a lot of the time given what we observe on the live server. So I am asking why they don't make this a norm, especially since it only takes some coordination on their part, and there is indication that they have done it in the past.

vinceent1 said:

point is, that pvp in this game is used and probably meant to be just spare some time there (or waste if you want)

many premades are just queing there in between waiting for dungeon or raids party are created (their own words). So basically pve players just spend some time in pvp in between waiting for pve instances and rule there. yeah pvp in this game is as absurdly bad. Deal with it like myself. I rather quit this game mode altogether

Do you really think that this is the case? My observation is the opposite: you meet premades multiple times over a couple of hours on a given day - why would they queue time after time if they only cared about spending some time between dungeon runs? A team of 5 can do their own etos, CN, or any other dungeon run without waiting! PvE players: maybe some of them do it due to the AD. However if premades did not form on live server, then even PvE-ers would be happy to queue for PvP just for the fun of a match.

I can tell you my own reasons for PvPing: there are matches that can be really fun. For me, this is the most fun part of the whole game. Unfortunately it is not systematic. These fun matches are never pugs against premades. They are when a random set of pug-ers gets pitted against another set of pug-ers (including myself). That is also when the least time is wasted.

greywynd · April 2017

Their fun comes from roflstomping pugs.

disposablehero · April 2017

greywynd said:
Their fun comes from roflstomping pugs.

This. They also tend to rage if you beat them at their own shenanigans, that's why I keep going back, to farm tears.

Unknown · April 2017

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demonmonger · April 2017

I agree

wintersmoke · April 2017

vinceent1 said:

point is, that pvp in this game is used and probably meant to be just spare some time there (or waste if you want)

many premades are just queing there in between waiting for dungeon or raids party are created (their own words). So basically pve players just spend some time in pvp in between waiting for pve instances and rule there. yeah pvp in this game is as absurdly bad. Deal with it like myself. I rather quit this game mode altogether

Do you really think that this is the case? My observation is the opposite: you meet premades multiple times over a couple of hours on a given day - why would they queue time after time if they only cared about spending some time between dungeon runs? A team of 5 can do their own etos, CN, or any other dungeon run without waiting! PvE players: maybe some of them do it due to the AD. However if premades did not form on live server, then even PvE-ers would be happy to queue for PvP just for the fun of a match.

I can tell you my own reasons for PvPing: there are matches that can be really fun. For me, this is the most fun part of the whole game. Unfortunately it is not systematic. These fun matches are never pugs against premades. They are when a random set of pug-ers gets pitted against another set of pug-ers (including myself). That is also when the least time is wasted.

There are two different ideas here that are consistently confused, and conflated by people in this forum, What PvP IS & what PvP was MEANT TO BE. Or rather, the difference between PvP as it was implemented, and the situation that PvP has become over time. Originally, this game had no PvP attached to it, in the concept phase. The powers that be decreed that " It's an MMO, & ALL MMO's have to have PvP!!!" So they went ahead and tacked one on. The game was meant to be a solo PVE environment, where, in order to progress, solo players would have to come together to beat obstacles that they would never be able to overcome alone. The reason that the PvP, even as an under funded add-on, became so popular is because the mechanics are just so darn cool. Unfortunately, this brought more PvP players to the game & the balance was thrown off kilter. PvP became a money maker, & the input of PvP players caused changes to be made which further upset the original balance of the game. Ultimately these changes "broke" the environment, & in attempting to course correct, the devs had to come down a little harder than they would have if they had shown a little spine & just said "NO!" a little earlier. The current PvP environment, (low population, bad class balance, pre-mades vs. pugs, etc.,) are results of years of mistakes, not one of them game breaking on their own, but cumulatively a disaster. There are some signs of hope. 1 vs. 1 in stronghold, if it proves popular enough could be used to build inter- ( & eventually Intra-) guild PvP matches. the devs have been working on class balance for about a year & they are almost halfway there. I hope it can all be worked out. I would dearly like to try the wonderful PvP I have heard about from pre Mod 6. But it took 3 years to break this... it can't be fixed over night. Still... I don't see why we can't have a "permanent" solo-queue while we wait?

nezdin · April 2017

Removed moderated quote.

xsayajinx1 said:
They play the game how it's intended, with a full 5 men team.

This is a totally vacuous statement.
It is your subjective, normative belief that the current pvp queue is intended to be played that way. I noticed that you frequently resort to this one-liner in your statements in the forum. Giving the option to queue in teams or solo says absolutely nothing about the intentions behind the creation of the mechanism. Even if we entertain the baseless assumption that that was the initial intention, it is really not smart to say that: if initial intention = X then I adhere to X even if it is against my interests.

A nuclear power plant that has significant faults was surely built with the intention of running and producing energy. Is the optimal decision to make use of it? This is a rhetorical question so I will leave you to imagine both the answer to it and the parallel with pvp.

More to the point now; since you are a self-professed premader in an active pvp guild, why not volunteer an answer to the initial post?

@wintersmoke
I agree with your statements; I also do not understand why we cannot have solo queue, but the crux is this: devs are silent on it. Cryptic may think it a prudent strategy but it is actually having the opposite effect: it creates distrust in the community. Being silent on an issue just screams "I do not want to commit to something I cannot/will not deliver". To avoid saying "we will not give you what you ask for" and risk people just quitting, Cryptic opts to gamble on players' hope that things will improve (don't they say "Hope dies last"?).

If there is any hope that they will make important pvp changes, these are likely to take place in a long time...years maybe. Great, but as JM Keynes once said "In the long run we're all dead." Post after post on this forum suggests changes to pvp and lists imbalances. This won't change anything though. Since we cannot count on the devs to improve things, the only way forward is to do something ourselves. There was a post by someone on the Russian server a few months ago describing how they made the best of a bad situation: player-driven initiatives! The power to do something about this resides in the hands of those who are connected and can coordinate however - if all big pvp guilds enforced preview server matches for premades only and sanctioned solo only on live maybe we could make the best of a bad situation. I know of some people who mentioned preview matches, so it obviously works. The question is, why not make this a norm?

toriofthehorde · April 2017

Yeah PvP sucks... Unless ur premade 4 get about it..haa..I have played both sides of that. But I would like to be able to just que up alone and have a chance to win..not..lol...the ranking system makes absolutely no sense in this game..wth..also a lot of these so called PvP players who r on top want it that way. They will not due with ransoms because they figure they will more then likely loose..haha...I know some of these "top dogs" they won't even help out new guildies because they are afraid to tarnish there stats..lol..PvP neverwinter is broke. I only air my frustration because I wish they would bring solo to the game. Its so much more even matched and I love actually fighting against a team. Not getting ur ads kicked..or we kick their HAMSTER...I want it more even...

forumnamesuxs · April 2017

defiantone99 said:
I would think that they would move on to a different game, this one sure is not going to change. They are really stubborn.lol

Name a game which offers a similar combat experience as NWO, with devs who give a HAMSTER, and I'll move there today.

nezdin#5514 said:

Are you seriously telling me that most pvp players from pvp guilds care more about a stupid ranking than having fun? I find it hard to believe that this would be what deters them moving their matches to the preview server.

I don't know of anyone from my guild who queue premade or semi premade for this reason. At least I can't remember hearing anything about it.
People like to PvP with their friends, like people like to PvE with their frineds. There's usually not much more to it, except for when one group fail at sniping a premade they know are active. I've had that happend a lot. It also happends when people try to sync queue on live.

nezdin#5514 said:

The idea to play on preview is not mine. Some guys I met in matches told me that they used to play on preview in premades. This is obviously not the case a lot of the time given what we observe on the live server. So I am asking why they don't make this a norm, especially since it only takes some coordination on their part, and there is indication that they have done it in the past.

Coordinating a match like that can take longer than getting a queue match with the correct team on live for various reasons, especially if someone has a poor connection, and hasn't been keeping their preview patching up to date for a while, or never patched it at all.
We actually waited about 1,5 hours on someone who was patching for the first time. All for one match. It gets old real fast.

nezdin#5514 said:

Do you really think that this is the case? My observation is the opposite: you meet premades multiple times over a couple of hours on a given day - why would they queue time after time if they only cared about spending some time between dungeon runs? A team of 5 can do their own etos, CN, or any other dungeon run without waiting! PvE players: maybe some of them do it due to the AD. However if premades did not form on live server, then even PvE-ers would be happy to queue for PvP just for the fun of a match.

PvP'ing with a full team in between dungeon runs, or while waiting for someone, sounds more like the exception rather than the rule to me, but I don't know most people in the game; so I can't really argue against it.

nezdin#5514 said:

I can tell you my own reasons for PvPing: there are matches that can be really fun. For me, this is the most fun part of the whole game. Unfortunately it is not systematic. These fun matches are never pugs against premades. They are when a random set of pug-ers gets pitted against another set of pug-ers (including myself). That is also when the least time is wasted.

I can only partially agree with you on this one.
My most fun matches are in premade vs premade, but those don't happend too often, so I usually queue alone, or sometimes with one or two others, and even though I've had fun pug vs premade matches, those are also exceptions rather than the rule.

Unknown · April 2017

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nezdin · April 2017

forumnamesuxs said:

nezdin#5514 said:

The idea to play on preview is not mine. Some guys I met in matches told me that they used to play on preview in premades. This is obviously not the case a lot of the time given what we observe on the live server. So I am asking why they don't make this a norm, especially since it only takes some coordination on their part, and there is indication that they have done it in the past.
Coordinating a match like that can take longer than getting a queue match with the correct team on live for various reasons, especially if someone has a poor connection, and hasn't been keeping their preview patching up to date for a while, or never patched it at all.
We actually waited about 1,5 hours on someone who was patching for the first time. All for one match. It gets old real fast.

Fair example of an undesirable outcome. However this is something that is in the control of the players who participate in premades. If this becomes the norm then either everyone who regularly indulges will have their patches up to date; or communication via a preview/premade channel could invite someone else if 10 minutes have elapsed and the preview teams are not full. Basically, if this becomes the norm and people like it, safeguards could easily be put in place to avoid those 1.5 hour waits, which are already the rule on live. Players taking control of the situation can only make outcomes more efficient, and more pleasurable.

forumnamesuxs said:

nezdin#5514 said:

I can tell you my own reasons for PvPing: there are matches that can be really fun. For me, this is the most fun part of the whole game. Unfortunately it is not systematic. These fun matches are never pugs against premades. They are when a random set of pug-ers gets pitted against another set of pug-ers (including myself). That is also when the least time is wasted.
I can only partially agree with you on this one.
My most fun matches are in premade vs premade, but those don't happend too often, so I usually queue alone, or sometimes with one or two others, and even though I've had fun pug vs premade matches, those are also exceptions rather than the rule.

We would probably agree fully, not partially, on this. I think that I would thoroughly enjoy pm vs pm, much more than pug vs pug. But no one in my guild or alliance does PvP (maybe one or two exceptions in different time zones). Even if I did have a group of guildies to do premades, what is the point? Getting teamed up against a poor team of lower geared pugs? Or meeting over-geared pvp premades that will smash us anyway? We are therefore condemned to pug and hope that random matching is on our side (something that premades destroy). Those matches where randomness blesses us are the only matches that I have known, and a small subset of those have been really awesome.

khandran · May 2017

+1 great post

this would improve things but I have no faith in the leaders of pvp guilds to step up. pvp guilds won't change behaviors because is easier to stomp pugs then get organized. They're lazy

disposablehero#5903 said:

greywynd said:
Their fun comes from roflstomping pugs.
This. They also tend to rage if you beat them at their own shenanigans, that's why I keep going back, to farm tears.

some things dont change mod after mod

nezdin · May 2017

khandran#2092 said:
+1 great post

this would improve things but I have no faith in the leaders of pvp guilds to step up. pvp guilds won't change behaviors because is easier to stomp pugs then get organized. They're lazy

Maybe, but I hope it is not the case. Hopefully one day soon they will really get tired and realise that it is in their hands to waste less of their precious time by either spending their time outside the game or just move premades to preview.

kreatyve · May 2017

This is a bit of a hot button topic. We are leaving it open so people can vent a little, but please do so without throwing insults around. Thanks.

armadeonx · May 2017

They really need to separate solo and premade queues or just introduce a solo only version. One of the reasons pvp has so few players is because new people are scared off after getting completely slaughtered on their first few tries.

It's completely unfair to match a 5 man team who are fully geared (and communicating) against 5 random puggers - most of whom will be low level with no/little tenacity.

kalina311 · May 2017

khandran#2092 said:
+1 great post

this would improve things but I have no faith in the leaders of pvp guilds to step up. pvp guilds won't change behaviors because is easier to stomp pugs then get organized. They're lazy

disposablehero#5903 said:

greywynd said:
Their fun comes from roflstomping pugs.
This. They also tend to rage if you beat them at their own shenanigans, that's why I keep going back, to farm tears.
some things dont change mod after mod

@khandran#2092

seems to me its the Pve player that is the lazy one bro and full of excuses .....

The Pvp Player has multiple gear sets and has to grind multiple things a pve player does not
the pvp player goes to preview server and test various build and load out on each other .. the pve player does not ...
the pvp player tries different strategies trains vs differnt builds and uses a mike .... the pve player does not ...

seems to me its the Pve player that is the lazy one bro .....
a pvp player still had to grind out all the pve content as well ...
waiting tons of time on preview server to even sync Q yup that is pretty lazy ...

so there are no lazy pve players then right ????

I suppose pvp players that earned a level 20 guild hall by doing mostly pve are lazy too right ?

and pve players that get together an overpower team to smash thru some content skirmish are not lazy too ?
perhaps they should gear down too right.... oh thats true the Pve monsters dont complain ...

so getting together a strong(er) coordinated team in an MMO to get thru content faster is lazy gotcha .... *checks box off*

so so called "pve players" never Q more then 1 person at a time (and should not )for pvp concorer shards to upgrade their guild power boon ... cause they want to be martyrs right ??

but perfectly acceptable to form a "premade for pve content" cause you are lazy and want to run it easier ..

double standard much bro

armadeonx · May 2017

People are people, they'll take advantage wherever there's an advantage to be taken. However, if pvp is to grow again then steps have to be taken to give players who are trying out pvp a softer introduction than the current slaughter house.

Expecting teams to transfer to the preview server is unrealistic - it also only covers PC, not the consoles.

hagbard · May 2017

Maybe solo Q is not enuf, why not implement an Elo like in League of Legends https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

wintersmoke · May 2017

hagbard#9047 said:
Maybe solo Q is not enuf, why not implement an Elo like in League of Legends https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Neverwinter has an ELO system for PvP. Unforunately, the population is so low, that when it is active, the wait times for the queue tops out over 90 minutes. Players complained, so the devs disabled it.

hagbard · May 2017

wintersmoke said:

hagbard#9047 said:
Maybe solo Q is not enuf, why not implement an Elo like in League of Legends https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
Neverwinter has an ELO system for PvP. Unforunately, the population is so low, that when it is active, the wait times for the queue tops out over 90 minutes. Players complained, so the devs disabled it.

just funny the dev's can disable elo but they cant make a perma solo Q >.>

raymond00713 · May 2017

Not everyone can win. People won't be happy until they can consistently win, and that just can't happen for everyone.

Let's say they introduced solo q. It'll be better for all? Not really. People are still competing, and they only need to be slightly better than you to cause you to return to the forums claiming the game is unbalanced or this certain class is too OP.

How much are you willing to invest to be better than the next guy? When you do, it's likely he or she will invest slightly more until someone's breaking point. That's when the argument stops being about premades and turns into something else because the end result is the same. Someone has to lose. There will always be consistent losers who are not satisfied.

nezdin · May 2017

armadeonx said:
They really need to separate solo and premade queues or just introduce a solo only version.

The question, here, is whether we believe that this will happen in the immediate future. If we believe yes, fine; no need to do anything but wait. If no, then is anyone of us prepared to do something about it or are we just content with just writing on these forums? If you answer the latter, then this is equivalent to believing that Cryptic will implement changes in the next 2-3 months. If you answer the former, then the question becomes: what can players do, if anything? This post is about just that.

armadeonx said:

Expecting teams to transfer to the preview server is unrealistic

It is not so unrealistic though. As I have mentioned, and also other first hand account of this (Kalina for instance) pvp premade matches already happen on the preview server. So this post is about getting organised and increasing premade-presence on server while decreasing it on live. If the problem is not enough players being present on preview, then only coordination can make that happen. They could create a preview-pvp channel for instance where the premade-focussed pvp guilds could arrange matches.

In parallel, fewer premades on live --> more of a solo Q feel on live.

armadeonx said:
it also only covers PC, not the consoles.

I totally agree that this is not a long-term solution and everyone should be able to benefit from "good" pvp, but if some improvement can be made for PC players due to some particularity (option of preview) on PC, I don't see why they should not benefit, while no harm is done to non-PC players.

nezdin · May 2017

kalina311 said:

waiting tons of time on preview server to even sync Q yup that is pretty lazy ...

Since you guys queue on preview, there must be some benefit to it; but why do you say that it can take "tons of time" for the queues to sync on preview? Is it due to:

-lack of organisation? i.e. the matching will happen only as soon as 2 full teams of 5 players are queuing, and for some reason player 1 or player 7 have not come to the preview server; or

-the queuing system being flawed in some way? i.e. even if 2 teams of 5 players are on preview and queuing, the matching will not automatically happen?

kalina311 · May 2017

Yes the qing on the preview server is also flawed especially if there are multiple teams qing that are not full comps
you will not get insta pop you will wait potentially forever to 5 v 5 sync till other people get out of Q thats why a 5 v 5 lobby keeps getting requested you the match and potentially map can be set...

then people keep berating take it to preview take it to preview !!!!

what if there is a rival guild or people you hate you will never catch them or get them to go on preview to be tought a lesson you can only catch them in open regular q on regular server.. a few players and guilds come to mind..

even 1 person Qing solo on preview can troll / mess up the Q as it looks to form random teams of 5 v 5 teams or preset 5 v 5

also the constant need to patch the preview server (some people have slower connections ) and transfer characters from live

also you cant do regular pve game activities with regards to character progression while on preview waiting in Q
so a semi casual pickup match is impossible

xbox and Ps4 dont have a preview server and this really solves nothing for a lot of the population

Unknown · May 2017

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kalina311 · May 2017

Right but then each team can have a mix of all types and the match is more balanced / more fair /lasts longer
in pug match weaker players knows who they can go toe to toe with and who they can avoid

Unknown · May 2017

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Premades: why do you still queue? Why don't you take it to preview?

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