Hellish Rebuke and soulscorch proposed tweaks to help SW be on par withnow more powerful competition

jaime4312#3760
jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
edited April 2017 in The Nine Hells
Hey people,

Okay it is not a secret that the reworked weapon enchantments benefited some classes more than others cough cough lighting enchantment cough cough CW cough cough to give an example. Fine non SW people reading this thread, this is not a nerf request one so chill out.

SW got the short end of the stick as the best weapon enchantmets before the rework were vorpal (HB fury) and dread (SB) and now they are, for the most part... vorpal and dread. If it's is going to get stuck with the same enchantments, it better gets some tweaks so it regains some of its former glory witohut making it broken, correct? Not saying SW can't deal good damage because it can but, now that some classes got some significant aoe and single target damage boosts in the form of reworked enchantments and it got kinda excluded from that unless using goofy and most likely subpar rotations.

@asterdahl Hellish rebuke needs some changes, not calling it bad but I think we all or most SW's can agree we dislike the fact we can't stack HR's damage like we can with soulscorch. Really, every time we cast the atwill the DOT should get stacked just like SS + tab does, that would give HB a reasonable single target damage boost that would still leave soulbinder as the superior boss killer out of those 2 paragons by a decent margin. As it stands, every time we cast the HR all we do is refreshing the dot, like, seriously??? What on Earth is the point of using a damage over time atwill if you can't stack the damage??

Proposed changes:

- Hellish rebuke:

Reduce casting speed from the actual 0.8 to 0.4. It is supposed to be one of HB's main sources of damage, being able to use it twice a second would be a good steep in the right direction to increase single target damage by a decent amount without making it better than soulbinder. Besides:

Suggestion 1: Make it work like soulscorch (obviously SS will still deal far more damage):

When hitting a cursed enemy, it deals 100% of its damage instantly then burn (dot and the effect stacks) + creeping death extra damage if specced for fury path,

Suggestion 2:

Simply make the damage stack rather than refresh every time we cast it.


- Soulscorch:

First and most of all, the casting speed needs to be halved regardless of what other changes the encounter gets done, it is the main source of damage of SB yet, like other SW powers, it takes quite a bit before it actually hits the enemy.


Suggestion 1:

Increase the base damage by a decent amount, I think @kolatmaster @fernuu @schietindebux @tom#6998 would come up with a much more reasonable percentage than I could ever do but I think a 20% increase could do the trick.

Suggestion 2:

Keep the damage as it is but cut the amount of needed soulsparks to cast it by half.


- A much needed and reasonable change for encounter powers:

Cooldown reduction and faster casting speed are one of the things you devs have been given feedback on for years now yet little has been done to address that issue SW suffers from. Some of our takes take so long to recharge + take forever to be cast it's ridiculous, hadar's grasp is a prime example here.

- Change flames of empowerment from capped debuff to an uncapped one.


Well, not sure if this will ever be considered in a future rework (unlikely) but hey, one can only hope! :)

Edit: copy pasting something I replied to someone regarding NPNM, it definitely needs to be with original post, I'm going to make a few tweaks to it:

With my suggested changes NPNM would need a rework, perhaps simply a flat percentage group-wide damage boost... like terryfing insight????? That would greatly enhance HB's buffing capacity and would make it more desired for any type of content, like "The pacts with your dark patrons grant you ability to unleash the power of the Nine Hells upon your enemies by making you and your allies much more powerful...

This would be followed by either:

1. Deal 20% increased damage (at rank 4).
2. Deal 60% of damage dealt from all attacks as necrotic dot over 4 seconds and 60% extra as fire.

Here are my reasons why option 2 would be the best one:

1. We SW's basically got laughed at and trolled with the weapon enchantments rework, the difference with other classes like CW and GWF using them is outright insulting. We deserve to be given something that can boost our damage in a meaningful way.

2. It is no secret a decent portion of fury HB comes from the owlbear cub companion, that's ridiculous. With my proposed NPNM, devs can freely nerf the living hamster out of it and HB's damage output would still be on reasonable levels, unable to keep up with burst aoe and burst single target damage from other classes and SW builds such as soulbinder. HB would esentially be a pure single target paragon that depends more on dots than SB and as such the total dps would be lower without being bad either.

3. Not all players can afford trans enchantments, can they? some of them have guildies/allies/friends who happen to be HB SW's, don't they?. My suggested NPNM would make the HB SW a group-wide, walking trans bilethorn-like character :smile:

4. My suggested NPNM would made HB a paragon less dependant on gear than SB, low level players would be benefited a lot by this as they would no longer be defenseless punching bags in certain level 70 areas :) Think of that reworked HB as the Divine Oracle of the warlock class :smiley:


What do you fellow SW's think of my proposed changes? Are they reasonable? What do you think it needs to be done so SW can have a better chance against some of the other dps classes using those reworked enchantments?

@nitocris83 weapon enchantments rework was very unfair on SW class, please help make this be noticed and kept in mind by the devs.
Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on

Comments

  • lyaise
    lyaise Member Posts: 491 Arc User
    "What do you fellow SW's think of my proposed changes?" - Good contribution but nobody listens.
    ...............vote for your favourite expansion..........
    "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
    ..............not this one then.............
  • senticon
    senticon Member Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    I would be very happy for stacking HR dot instead of refresh, but NPNM will become completely useless in that case, so this will need some serious rework too. Than again, every SW HB I know is running with HR, but SW has other at-wills too which are far inferior to HR in most situations. That needs looking into as well IMO.
  • hadestemplar#9918
    hadestemplar#9918 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,027 Arc User
    Well Just for fun, tell me what do u think about my proposal for HR. as for SB's at will still thinking how to implement possible effects..


    HB's hellish rebuke.

    A lot of you would wondering whats problem with this power.

    Well I still do think that Hellish rebuke should receive same mechanic as CW's master of flames> Scorching Burst
    By changing way how apply Hellish rebuke to Scorching Burst, Furry SW will get higher dmg performance due Gatekeepers Empowerment.
    And temptation finally could properly apply Hellish condemnation debuff. Which with current HR is just mouse torment.

    > Scorching Burst do, Hold button down to increase the radius. And this part we need, all other dmg related factors we don't need.
    Now possible interaction.
    After you charge up and hit area, you just apply Hellish rebuke, no other things happens, its just work as is now. Same dmg dealing way.
    Furry> gatekeeper empowerment increase DoT as it do now. Thats mean no changes would be required.
    Temptation> hellish condemnation > Targets affected by your Hellish Rebuke atwill deal 1/2/3/4/5% less damage.
    Thats mean by changing mechanic how apply Hellish rebuke warlock increase performance.


    In other words, I think HB should be more aoe focused path, while SB more dmg better and single target.... But it's jut my theories.. :)
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • jaime4312#3760
    jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    senticon said:

    I would be very happy for stacking HR dot instead of refresh, but NPNM will become completely useless in that case, so this will need some serious rework too. Than again, every SW HB I know is running with HR, but SW has other at-wills too which are far inferior to HR in most situations. That needs looking into as well IMO.

    @senticon it's been over a month since I switched back to SB but correct me if I'm wrong, NPNM doesn't make HR to stack it's dot, quite the opposite, it makes it lose it. Yes, NPNM would need a rework, how about making it similar to Orcus set bonus or some of executioner TR's feats? like "deal x% extra damage once your target is below % hitpoints". Perhaps simply a flat percentage damage boost... like terryfing insight????? That would greatly enhance HB's buffing capacity and would make it more desired for any type of content, like "The pacts with your dark patrons grant you ability to unleash the power of the Nine Hells upon your enemies by making you and your allies much more powerful...

    This would be followed by either:

    1. Deal 20% increased damage (at rank 4).
    2. Deal 60% of damage dealt from all attacks as necrotic dot over 4 seconds and 60% extra as fire.

    Here are my reasons why option 2 would be the best one:

    1. We SW's basically got laughed at and trolled with the weapon enchantments rework, the difference with other classes like CW and GWF using them is outright insulting. We deserve to be given something that can boost our damage in a meaningful way.

    2. It is no secret a decent portion of fury HB comes from the owlbear cub companion, that's ridiculous. With my proposed NPNM, devs can freely nerf the living hamster out of it and HB's damage output would still be on reasonable levels, unable to keep up with burst aoe and burst single target damage from other classes and SW builds such as soulbinder. HB would esentially be a pure single target paragon that depends more on dots than SB and as such the total dps would be lower without being bad either.

    3. Not all players can afford trans enchantments, can they? some of them have guildies/allies/friends who happen to be HB SW's, don't they?. My suggested NPNM would make the HB SW a group-wide, walking trans bilethorn-like character :smile:

    4. My suggested NPNM would made HB a paragon less dependant on gear than SB, low level players would be benefited a lot by this as they would no longer be defenseless punching bags in certain level 70 areas :) Think of that reworked HB as the Divine Oracle of the warlock class :smiley:

    I disagree on HR and paragon-specific powers for that matter though, they're the reason you choose x or y paragon for any class so the y should outperform the starting ones by at least a significant margin/boost your perfomance one way or another, like how WMS makes sure strike hit harder. HR is one of the reasons HB is chosen over SB, it needs to be much more powerful than any other SW atwill, like, by a long shot!

    @lyaise true that but hey, it was possible to get certain things fixed or at least out on reasonable levels, one can only hope xD
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • jaime4312#3760
    jaime4312#3760 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    @bloodyspamer


    I see what you are coming from, but here's the problem with your sugggestion:

    Even though HB is more aoe than SB, it still is a SW and as such its dps potential is centered in single target damage, albeit lower than that of SB.

    HR working like scorching burst would esentially make it horribad for fury pve and pvp, with such a slow casting speed you may as well use something else. Imagine using that HR against, say, a good destroyer GWF, by the time you finish to cast it the foe has your hp at like 10% and IBS is halfway from landing on your skull lol.

    I think these would be 2 good alternatives:

    Make HR work like fiery bolt or fanning the flame aoe damage wise (a fiery bolt-like HR with dot damage stacking would be sweet).
    Make the damage reduction feat on temptation tree proc from all your attacks.
  • senticon
    senticon Member Posts: 59 Arc User

    @bloodyspamer


    I see what you are coming from, but here's the problem with your sugggestion:

    Even though HB is more aoe than SB, it still is a SW and as such its dps potential is centered in single target damage, albeit lower than that of SB.

    HR working like scorching burst would esentially make it horribad for fury pve and pvp, with such a slow casting speed you may as well use something else. Imagine using that HR against, say, a good destroyer GWF, by the time you finish to cast it the foe has your hp at like 10% and IBS is halfway from landing on your skull lol.

    I think these would be 2 good alternatives:

    Make HR work like fiery bolt or fanning the flame aoe damage wise (a fiery bolt-like HR with dot damage stacking would be sweet).
    Make the damage reduction feat on temptation tree proc from all your attacks.

    Yes, correct, NPNM turns dot into burst dmg. If they make it do more dmg below certain hp %, that would be somewhat similar to Killing Flames purpose and still not gonna cut it, because you:
    1. You use entire slot for class feature, so that should give some serious benefits to consider it.
    2. Stacking dot will still be far superior in dmg.

    Still, no matter how NPNM would work, I'm all for making HR dot stack, because right now it's not so good...
  • hadestemplar#9918
    hadestemplar#9918 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,027 Arc User

    @bloodyspamer


    I see what you are coming from, but here's the problem with your sugggestion:

    Even though HB is more aoe than SB, it still is a SW and as such its dps potential is centered in single target damage, albeit lower than that of SB.

    HR working like scorching burst would esentially make it horribad for fury pve and pvp, with such a slow casting speed you may as well use something else. Imagine using that HR against, say, a good destroyer GWF, by the time you finish to cast it the foe has your hp at like 10% and IBS is halfway from landing on your skull lol.

    I think these would be 2 good alternatives:

    Make HR work like fiery bolt or fanning the flame aoe damage wise (a fiery bolt-like HR with dot damage stacking would be sweet).
    Make the damage reduction feat on temptation tree proc from all your attacks.

    I think it's better not stack hellish condemnation. but rather give ability to apply it on multiple targets..
    That fiery bolt like effect is not bad.. But actually remind me storm pillar :)

    But now when I think. Why hellish condemnation must be locked on HR only? Why not make it feat which trigger by any power.
    While with hellish rebuke add extra effect. :)

    Now as damage reduction. I think it would be better to boost up aura of despair effect from ~5% to ~10% damage reduction. Then it would benefit not only HB but SB too.


    AS for hellish rebuke itself.. Well @amenar made this NPNM changes because, DoT is good if fight is long. But when come weaker monster wiping = HAMSTER. U need time so that DoT deal full his dmg.
    And from SW history it's where one of reasons why SW lagged behind CW in dungeons runs. Even having better gear.
    NP,NM give warlock ability to switch from DoT to burst. However, HR old DoT have edge over current HR because. You apply Hellish rebuke to as many targets u can. And if enemy hit you, HR's effect restart. Now in dungeons, or pvp, enemy hit you, and if u apply HR on him, you have nonstop DoT.
    It where even funny situation, 2 SW's from opposite teams applyed hellish rebuke on each other. And due power interaction they where both on DoT all time, even without hitting anymore.

    Current HE sucks because even if enemy hit you, it do not refresh. So when facing 5 or more enemy, u apply DoT on first target, and when u apply on fifth target, you first ones DoT ends.. In other words, it's waste of time.
    Also I suggested use CW's MoF at will mechanic because, this CW path is DoT based, and SW is also DoT based class. Plus that at will power do not require charge up to max.. U can keep clicking and reapply on single targets..
    While holding button/charging u apply on wider area. This charge up give u tactical advantage in pve and pvp.
    In pve, before hitting enemy group with x encounter, u charge up Hellish rebuke> apply Flame of empowerment + DoT effect.
    Then hit with encounter.. So it's benefits either furry or templock.

    In pvp also it's benefits.. U get in range of group of players, perhaps fighting with opposite faction players.. U charge up hellish rebuke. Hit, = apply Dot + foE, if templock also add hellish condemnation to multiple targets

    Plus if u think that in certain area is TR hidding via stealth. U can charge up and land hit.

    So I can see benefits only.. And downside would be same as now CW mof, when charging u standing in one place.
    But as I wrote, u don't have to keep charging to max all time.. :)

    ------

    Also flame of empowerment need change, reduce stacking from 6 to 3. but effect increase.. So 1 stack would be = current 2 stacks.
    This would reduce delay, which occurs fights.. Now u hitting at wills to get these 6 stacks. So latter hit with strong encounters..
    And unlike mod 9 or older versions, current SW powers cool down is shorter. I use BoVa + PoP + Fiery bolt. So have time to use at wills.
    But when I use DT + PoP + Wb. I found that I use at wills less, and mostly stack FoE up to 4 stacks only.

    now without NpNM HR do not stack FoE all alone. U have to reapply at will to trigger it.


    p.s I think feat murderous flames should buff all fire based powers in same way as it does with killing flames..
    So harrowstorm would be viable once again, also it would make eldritch blast at will usefull too. :) Because SB's at will and HB's HR killed reasons to use other at will powers..
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • cindy#5704
    cindy#5704 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    We all been saying even before the weapon enchants came out that the warlock needs to be redone or buffed up and fix what is not working right. After they go into the Rouge I hope they buff the war lock and fix what is broken or I'm done
  • hadestemplar#9918
    hadestemplar#9918 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,027 Arc User

    We all been saying even before the weapon enchants came out that the warlock needs to be redone or buffed up and fix what is not working right. After they go into the Rouge I hope they buff the war lock and fix what is broken or I'm done

    Warlock had flaws since introduction, and even after mod 10 powers recalibration still these problems shine as brightest start in the sky..

    For example, curse mechanic itself is problem. Now furry tree depend lot of curse and it's make him strong and weak in same time,.
    If u hit cursed target, you get extra dmg boost. Now hitting non cursed u lose edge.
    My proposal would be make Curse more optional rather requirement.. For example, temptation builds advantage is that it's free from curse. I can fight without using curse at all. And this is why I picked this build,, because my dmg is not locked on curse and I can go fight in AoE way..

    Next, Not many power combinations are available. For furry obviously u will pick powers to proc Creeping death. So DoT elements are crucial part. But, DoT weak side is that it's require time to deal all his good dmg.
    For many times I suggested cut Creeping death out of furry tree and replace like dmg increasing selfbuff, similar to either SB's soul spark mechanic or Rampaging madness.

    As at wills also, they are more single target focused, and applying effects like Hellish condemnation is time wasting.

    AS damnation tree, you can rework in couple ways by keeping desing idea without changing much.
    For example, why damnation don't use Imolition spirits like puppets instead usual one??
    Or why don't make other type puppet special for damnation?




    Or why don't use cubics/spheres as extra help to moderate damnation tree??
    Now what is cubics,, well I played game lineage 2, there are 3 summoners/tammers classes, and they use cubics to help them in fights,, u can't control them, but they help u a lot.
    either heal you, or add buff or debuff to enemy or stuck with dmg..

    Now in neverwinter it could work similar to CW's renegate feat> Chaos Magic< which provide either buff or heal.
    I would suggest add couple possible effect within sphere and it would make Damnation very viable in groups..

    Offensive> power, crit, arp increase by 10%
    Defence > defence/deflect + HP regeneration 10% increase

    Dmg> chance deal ~10% dmg based on warlock weapon. or apply DoT or something..
    Chance CC> stun target

    Chance heal + remove bad effects(DoT, CC).


    The idea come from current lineage 2 cubics lists>

    Binding Cubic - Summons Binding Cubic. Binding Cubic uses magic that paralyzes a targeted enemy.
    Storm Cubic - Summons a storm cubic. A storm cubic uses magic that inflicts damage to one's enemy.
    Life Cubic - Summons a Life Cubic. The Life Cubic uses magic to regenerate HP to its owner and party members.
    Aqua Cubic Summon Aqua Cubic - Summons Aqua Cubic. Aqua Cubic uses magic that damages a targeted enemy over time.
    Summon Phantom Cubic - Summons Phantom Cubic. Phantom Cubic uses magic that decreases P.Atk, P. Def,
    Vampiric Cubic uses magic that absorbs the targeted enemy's HP and with it regenerates its master's HP.
    Viper Cubic uses magic that poisons a targeted enemy.
    Spark Cubic uses magic that stuns a targeted enemy.

    Smart Cubic. Cancels all the bad abnormal conditions which were cast on the master, and uses useful skills additionally.
    Note: smart = can trigger all other mentioned cubics effects..



    So there are way to boost up each SW builds capabilities by implementing small changes.. :) But as always we hit wall which contain words> all things cost either time, or money and efforts. <

    And from what I can see, developers want do small changes,, not radical ones.

    So to adjust cost, and time which would require to make changes I suggested use CW's MoF at will mechanic.
    It's known for long time, have long power interactions logs. Plus it would not require to build from scratch, just copy..


    So more less, either developers do small changes, or better cut SW and redesing and redevelop from scratch.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================