Sigil of the Nine Artifact

rjc9000 · April 2017

So, I was just minding my business on preview, until I saw THIS artifact.

EDIT This was taken on preview. Mamalion showed us that on the latest devblog, it got reduced to a 3% buff, which is nice, but not as empowering.

Do you guys think this will become instant BiS for buffing builds, or is this just a tooltip reading error on my part? Any other... thoughts, opinions guys?

---

@mimicking#6533 , @rgutscheradev, @nitocris83 and to the members of the Cryptic dev team: could we get a version of this to test on preview?

I might be overhyping/overeacting to the artifact, but if it what I suspect it does, I would hope to be able to test it.

Recall that Eye of the Giant on preview was bugged and gave you much more power than intended....

I would hope to avoid a repeat of an incident like that...

slapdrive · April 2017

This would probably be a replacement for the sigil of the devoted on my GF to be honest. So long as the animation isn't insane like tiamat's orb or something, the stats and ability would be worth the trade for me.

I do wonder if it stacks though.... can never tell with this game.

mamalion1234 · April 2017

Normally you cant stack the buff of the same type. AND even if you can stack different ranks ( i dont think so) you will able to do it once since only the mythic has the 60 seconds cooldown. OR 9% more buff will game break when in endgame party your killing speed is as fast as the artifact duration?:)

slapdrive · April 2017

mamalion1234 said:
Normally you cant stack the buff of the same type. AND even if you can stack different ranks ( i dont think so) you will able to do it once since only the mythic has the 60 seconds cooldown. OR 9% more buff will game break when in endgame party your killing speed is as fast as the artifact duration?:)

Personally I don't think it should stack, but things have a tendency to do what they shouldn't for quite some time when first released(bugs/glitches get through, I'm not going to cry about that). It wouldn't be the first artifact to be bugged for a long time... Forgehammer cooldown is like 25 seconds at mythic... the symbol of air with it's two/three minute cooldown instead of 60 at mythic.

hastati96 · April 2017

I will probably stay with my heart of the black dragon. If the 9% are uncapped then I will probably think twice about it but as long as it is another capped buff I see no reason to use it.

mamalion1234 · April 2017

9%? check the dev blog now became 3%;p AND i am laughing since we have the wheel of elements and poeple attacking any other artifact when wheel gives 30% bonus damage on damage you already deal for 28 sec.( even stronger than commander strike since commander buffs the encounter not all attacks.)

isssssho · April 2017

I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.

mamalion1234 · April 2017

isssssho said:
I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.

https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10472773 I dont know here says 3% buff.

rjc9000 · April 2017

mamalion1234 said:

isssssho said:
I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10472773 I dont know here says 3% buff.

That is odd, it got changed.

Well then, crisis averted (?)

I still have a feeling it's going to be BiS for supporter builds (still gonna use it on my Tactician) by virtue of giving a damage buff to your teammates, something that no other artifact does (unless you purposely let your teammates steal your Wheel - Fire or Tome buffs).

isssssho · April 2017

Yea, missed that

Sounds more reasonable.

mamalion1234 · April 2017

rjc9000 said:

mamalion1234 said:

isssssho said:
I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10472773 I dont know here says 3% buff.
That is odd, it got changed.

Well then, crisis averted (?)

I still have a feeling it's going to be BiS for supporter builds (still gonna use it on my Tactician) by virtue of giving a damage buff to your teammates, something that no other artifact does (unless you purposely let your teammates steal your Wheel - Fire or Tome buffs).

or my teamates use all their wheels and do 30% bonus damage? who stop them do that? its very easy to cast wheel if you are carefull

rjc9000 · April 2017

mamalion1234 said:

rjc9000 said:

mamalion1234 said:

isssssho said:
I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10472773 I dont know here says 3% buff.
That is odd, it got changed.

Well then, crisis averted (?)

I still have a feeling it's going to be BiS for supporter builds (still gonna use it on my Tactician) by virtue of giving a damage buff to your teammates, something that no other artifact does (unless you purposely let your teammates steal your Wheel - Fire or Tome buffs).
or my teamates use all their wheels and do 30% bonus damage? who stop them do that? its very easy to cast wheel if you are carefull

That was hypothetical.

But, you wouldn't believe how many people can't figure out how to use/place their Wheel - Fire at the right times...

darthtzarr · April 2017

rjc9000 said:

mamalion1234 said:

rjc9000 said:

mamalion1234 said:

isssssho said:
I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10472773 I dont know here says 3% buff.
That is odd, it got changed.

Well then, crisis averted (?)

I still have a feeling it's going to be BiS for supporter builds (still gonna use it on my Tactician) by virtue of giving a damage buff to your teammates, something that no other artifact does (unless you purposely let your teammates steal your Wheel - Fire or Tome buffs).
or my teamates use all their wheels and do 30% bonus damage? who stop them do that? its very easy to cast wheel if you are carefull
That was hypothetical.

But, you wouldn't believe how many people can't figure out how to use/place their Wheel - Fire at the right times...

My favorite is when 3 people try to drop wheel as soon as they spawn into a room. Or in a hallway near the wall, or standing directly beside the boss, or... yeah you get the idea. People love dropping it on each other's heads instead of moving a few feet away before using it. It's easy in a buff comp where only one person has it, but get 2-4 in a group, and it can be nightmarish.

thefabricant · April 2017

Great. The artifact went from being potentially useful to probably useless. *sigh*

isssssho said:
I would like to clarify some things. 1 - buffs dont have effectiveness cap, only debuffs. 2 - wheel provides 30% damage bonus only for the user (and only on paper). Problem with the sigil is that 9% incoming damage increase is too much - especially during buff spike in raids. If we presume that it doesn't stack and that it doesn't have target cap - try to imagine following situation : in msva for example 4 supports use this arti (most used number in msva raid). All 4 are in teamspeak - during the battle 1 activates arti increasing everyones damage output for 9% = 90% party damage output, after he counts till its end - he notifies next support which also activates it and so on. With 4 people its 90% party outgoing damage increase for 36 sec.
In regular 5 man party its 45% increase in effectiveness - and there were already complains that the wheel is providing too much of a boost.
Now go back to the stats of arti again - defence + deflect + life steal + power (assassins covenant) - usable by GF, DC, debuff CW and somewhat OP. After becoming bis arti spreads fast so expect over 90% of people who use those classes to use it (if they are not damage selfish). In regular party you run with 2 or max 3 dps leaving space for 2 or 3 users of this arti which is once again - too much.
Now some of you mentioned black heart and forgehammer - basic difference is that both of those artis are bugged (will be fixed eventually) as you noticed as black heart is not supposed to provide debuff and forgehammer is supposed to have 1 min cooldown at mystic. However this sigil is presumed woking as intended which puts it in front of those 2 demand wise.

It is still a 9% buff, you don't add together the 9% from each person. This maths is horribly wrong.

rjc9000 · April 2017

thefabricant said:
Great. The artifact went from being potentially useful to probably useless. *sigh*

Oops, sorry about that Sharp.

I know you were considering about it for your DC, but if you don't need Sigil of the Devoted and are a support player, isn't the small team buff still decently good? (Heart of the Black Dragon werido debuff scaling non-withstanding?)

isssssho · April 2017

I was counting benefit of it on each person in group, thus the term 'party effectiveness' or 'party damage' (though more appropriate term would be raid party damage since its 10 people instead of 5) - since each person would benefit 9% from it

thefabricant · April 2017

isssssho said:
I was counting benefit of it on each person in group, thus the term 'party effectiveness' or 'party damage' (though more appropriate term would be raid party damage since its 10 people instead of 5) - since each person would benefit 9% from it

Party effectiveness is still 9%. Lets say there are 3 people in the party and they do x, y and z damage respectively.

1.09*x=1.09x
1.09*y=1.09y
1.09*z=1.09z

Total damage dealt = 1.09x+1.09y+1.09z

Same as:

1.09*(x+y+z)

It is not equal to:

1.27*(x+y+z)

darthtzarr · April 2017

isssssho said:
I was counting benefit of it on each person in group, thus the term 'party effectiveness' or 'party damage' (though more appropriate term would be raid party damage since its 10 people instead of 5) - since each person would benefit 9% from it

According to that math, Wheel of Elements: Fire increases "raid party damage" by ~30%

isssssho · April 2017

Yes, that is entirely correct Sharp

I guess I did not express myself in correct way - the goal was to compare effectiveness of the artifact with such as wheel which would as darthzarr stated be 30% party effective. And merely noticing that in such situations sigil would grant more bonus than wheel which was already target of complains about too big bonus that it provides with fire buff (still not good comparison since active times of bonuses are different) .

darthtzarr · April 2017

isssssho said:
Yes, that is entirely correct Sharp
I guess I did not express myself in correct way - the goal was to compare effectiveness of the artifact with such as wheel which would as darthzarr stated be 30% party effective. And merely noticing that in such situations sigil would grant more bonus than wheel which was already target of complains about too big bonus that it provides with fire buff (still not good comparison since active times of bonuses are different) .

Except I was kinda just making fun of your math, not agreeing with you. Wheel isn't even a party buff. Its effective party damage cannot even be calculated with a simple 30%/party count equation. It's not a party/group buff

isssssho · April 2017

I know you were sarcastic

It wasn't even math its just basic deduction of usefulness. If you still do not understand what I wanted to say - simply go to sharps equation and observe it as follwing :
x + y + z = c/3 while c/3 = b (not sure about formula - even if its simple im pretty drunk at this point so sorry

)
however the way artifact should interacts in my desiredd situation with is
9% * 10b
while wheel in such case would interact as
30% * 1b (or just b) or 30%/10 * 10b
(lol at my own formulas)

That is the only point of the party effectiveness - benefit for the raid / party composed as a single body.

thefabricant · April 2017

isssssho said:
I know you were sarcastic
It wasn't even math its just basic deduction of usefulness. If you still do not understand what I wanted to say - simply go to sharps equation and observe it as follwing :
x + y + z = c/3 while c/3 = b (not sure about formula - even if its simple im pretty drunk at this point so sorry )
however the way artifact should interacts in my desiredd situation with is
9% * 10b
while wheel in such case would interact as
30% * 1b (or just b) or 30%/10 * 10b
(lol at my own formulas)

That is the only point of the party effectiveness - benefit for the raid / party composed as a single body.

1+0.3*uptime/number of players in party.

so for example if there are 2 players in the party the wheel buffs the 1 players damage by 30% for 46.666666666% uptime, which is a ~14% buff for 1 player and assuming they did equal dps before, it was a 7% dps boost for the party (2*1.07 = 2.14).

darthtzarr · April 2017

thefabricant said:

isssssho said:
I know you were sarcastic
It wasn't even math its just basic deduction of usefulness. If you still do not understand what I wanted to say - simply go to sharps equation and observe it as follwing :
x + y + z = c/3 while c/3 = b (not sure about formula - even if its simple im pretty drunk at this point so sorry )
however the way artifact should interacts in my desiredd situation with is
9% * 10b
while wheel in such case would interact as
30% * 1b (or just b) or 30%/10 * 10b
(lol at my own formulas)

That is the only point of the party effectiveness - benefit for the raid / party composed as a single body.
assuming they did equal dps before

Being the key words that prevent it from being calculated as a party buff for any normal circumstance. It could be anywhere between ~0% and ~14% depending on how much DPS each of the two party members actually does.

Sigil of the Nine Artifact

Comments