Well, you have both identified the problem and solution.
Problem is, devs are spending little time make little content, but stretching it out to a point of absurdity. Everything is a increased grind, and you have to ever run farther and more back and forth for quests. Just to get two more quests and run back and forth the same route again...and again....and again.... This is the bad kind of grinding in a game.
Another problem is, after all that grinding the rewards have been significantly gone down since earlier mods. Especially the dungeon rewards. This is another bad. You lose paying people who don't find the game reward and exciting anymore.
So, devs are cutting their own throat by desperately trying to force people to use more ZEN by reducing what they gain in-game. That is the short version of the problem.
Now, DLCs will not fix that issue, since you will lose most of the people who are left, who can't afford to pay for games. The rest have already left to pay and play more fun games that is less grindy.
Keep the game free, but bring back the excitement in doing dungeons and quests.
I don't really understand how people come to this conclusion. If you do the math it's prohibitively expensive to actually skip grind by buying zen with actual money. You're talking thousands of dollars to do what you're implying.
The zen market is really structured to incentivize small impulse buys in conjunction with events. That's why you've got people hoarding everything for 2x RP or waiting for the 50% sales. There are only a few times a year where it actually make sense to buy anything from the zen market so it's kind of ridiculous to imply that they're "forcing" people to get zen to progress.
@greywynd I found out the hard way when mod6 came out that PWE won't hesitate to make current BIS gear entirely obsolete. This is why NWO lost more than half its player population when mod 6 dropped.
Look at the upcoming changes to weapon enchants. Vorpal is going to lose about half of it's value. Since mod five, there has been added artifact weapons and gear, tons of companion and mount power ups, a slew of new boons.
Coming back with characters that were near BIS for mod 5 and trying to even get them PvP suitable is a TON of work and/or money.
At least I got some RAD for salvaging all my Thyan epics.... was so sad about that. Initially refused. Created 3 new characters before I went back and started leveling the old one again.
Still, to get on topic. That works. I mean, you can't expect your character to just magically stay at the top, when the ceiling gets higher. Yet you replace hard very hard earned and grinded epic gear for a piece of uncommon that you get in a quest, that is now better than what you had, but it is better, and you can now play through the new content....well, that is if the new content was fun and exciting anyway. That character is now still level 61, as I just can't bring myself to grind another character through 60-70.
The main problem with the current free2play model is that it is poorly priced and constructed.
Blood Ruby - Utterly useless. Is in direct competition against any other RP item in the game and extremly expensive. Adventure Helper Pack - A huge waste of money. Bags - Overprized as HAMSTER. Keys - Overprized and useless. Especially the Legendary Dragon Key. Why not rework the key and let it work like that: Opens the additional dragon chest for anybody in the dungeon/skirmish. That would mean it has a lot of worth to it for the whole group. Wards - We need so many and the only source is the zen-market which can be off-putting for a lot of potential customers (you have Events, use them to gain a minimum of Wards from it, in fact some events grant these wards but not everyone)
In general the monetization of Neverwinters free2play model feels always like that the games deliberatly throws some stones in my way only to be solved by money i need to invest.
Bagspace is such a system. We have 70 different refinement items, probably more. A starting character has only like 60 slots of bagspace. Not including stuff he wants to carry around like the cool thrones, potions, overload enchantments (the old ones still doesn't stack) and many more things. And it isn't even cheap. A 36 slot bag costs up to 15 Dollar.
Playing Neverwinter until a certain point as a new player feels like a penality. I mean the game is good, but like I said it throws annoyances in your way only to sell you the solution. Like you spread a disease only to sell the cure while you own the pharmacy.
And thats Neverwinter main problem with its monetization in my opinion.
Edit: At least that is the feeling I get from their whole monetization strategy.
Post edited by karakla1 on
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,152Arc User
@greywynd I found out the hard way when mod6 came out that PWE won't hesitate to make current BIS gear entirely obsolete. This is why NWO lost more than half its player population when mod 6 dropped.
Look at the upcoming changes to weapon enchants. Vorpal is going to lose about half of it's value. Since mod five, there has been added artifact weapons and gear, tons of companion and mount power ups, a slew of new boons.
Coming back with characters that were near BIS for mod 5 and trying to even get them PvP suitable is a TON of work and/or money.
And yet Cryptic has made it clear that changing gear as the game progresses is part of the overall plan.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
A lot of people on this thread are missing the original point that was being made. The micro transaction sales model of Neverwinter means there is no real incentive for the Developer to add new playable content. Their incentive is in finding ways to get us to spend money in the zen store, like the new loadouts coming in 11.5. Yes you get 2 free, but more would be useful and I will probably buy 2 extras. Now why would they add loadouts when the sell respec tokens? I imagine its because people don't buy very many respecs.
I play for the exploration and novelty factor over all. I love new places to explore. With a DLC model the Devs are forced to build new content to get your money. With Neverwinter's current monetization model, there is no great incentive for them to do so.
Morria Grim 16,133 DC Morgrim Orcbane 16,530 CW Bloodlust Barbie 15,646 OP Tank
Now why would they add loadouts when the sell respec tokens? I imagine its because people don't buy very many respecs.
I have a stack of 99 BtA respec tokens from the winter festival, as mabe have one or two other players. I guess I'll never ever buy another respec token, given the tediousness of the all or nothing changes the usage of the token requires. Assuming that many players also sit on large stacks of respec tokens the introduction of loadouts makes more sense. It's like introducing the runic bag after 60% of the population had bound GBoH. They would not have to introduce this runic bag, they could also have e.g. unified power/union/stability artifacts, turned all BtC refinement into BtA refinement or many other solutions to give us bagspace back. Instead they sold us new bags with more space and in turn gave us the items that sit in that new bagspace :-)
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
If you like the model that other games have, feel free to play the other games.
"..while cash shop items (stuff you buy with zen that you've converted to AD) has increased exponentially." No it hasn't. Lets have some actual citations here. What HAS changed in that time is the need to buy essential refining ingredients from the zen shop like coalescants. That was a pain, and argued to death at the time.
Aside from that very little has been added to the zen shop. In fact many things like some mounts that were exclusively available with zen are now found in the AH. This game has been made far less zen exclusive over the mentioned time frame. ..again with the exception of those bottlenecking refinement pieces.
NWO hasn't been losing content, its been losing relevant content. That has nothing with the amount of content available, but with the design of the game in regards to it. There is 0 reason for an endgame person in a high level guild to play any area other than the newest for the 2 monthes is usually takes to top out that campaign. There are no tie ins, no puzzles, no scavenger hunts, no reason to play or even know older areas. THAT needs to change and would yield returns for them in terms of long term player interest. ..far more than paying for DLC. That would suck.
.."check the Steam analytics that I linked to above. " Wow thats totally proof! If you were saying that 3 years ago.
Of course those steam numbers are going down, as its no longer the exclusive outlet. NWO is barely integrated with steam. Through slow transactions, walking back some functionality, and lack of promotion they have been weaning themselves off of steam. At the same time they have been promoting use through ARC and been actively promoting and building the console communities.
i cant see how would a dlc content would fit in a free to play game, even if you say that dlc content would only bring stuff that would not bring advantege in PVE or PVP...
Btw i dont think people would pay to play something that dont come with a prize in a MMO, even if was to drop skins for armor, weapons and mounts, this would only be a "good seller" if those things where unbound to sell in AH...
ps I'm a old gamer, i dont like the dlc Stuff in any game... feels like i'm paying twice, and i hate to pay twice...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,410Arc User
.."check the Steam analytics that I linked to above. " Wow thats totally proof! If you were saying that 3 years ago.
Of course those steam numbers are going down, as its no longer the exclusive outlet. NWO is barely integrated with steam. Through slow transactions, walking back some functionality, and lack of promotion they have been weaning themselves off of steam. At the same time they have been promoting use through ARC and been actively promoting and building the console communities.
+1. Whoever installed this through steam and is technical enough would detach this game from steam after playing (say) 3 months. There is no point to use steam to start this game. It is slower and more problematic and there is no value added from steam.
If you want to pay money to buy stuff, it is a lot better through Arc. It is basically handicapped if you use steam. i.e. steam provides you value "reduced" service when you play this game.
I personally start the game without using steam or Arc.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
There is 0 reason for an endgame person in a high level guild to play any area other than the newest for the 2 monthes is usually takes to top out that campaign. There are no tie ins, no puzzles, no scavenger hunts, no reason to play or even know older areas.
Bro, do you even Stronghold? As part of something other than a WhaleGuild(tm) with everything unlocked? I've spent more time in older areas more since SH than it took to get those boons. The mimic is what first pushes to older areas, then the Explorer charts add more older areas to be in. I'd be happy if the SH sent us LESS often to older areas, as that doesn't help with current module's content.
Consider the medium/smaller guilds with low to medium SHs before you ask for more grinding elsewhere.
There is 0 reason for an endgame person in a high level guild to play any area other than the newest for the 2 monthes is usually takes to top out that campaign. There are no tie ins, no puzzles, no scavenger hunts, no reason to play or even know older areas. THAT needs to change and would yield returns for them in terms of long term player interest. ..far more than paying for DLC. That would suck.
So you don't need any Adventurer's Shards of Power?
These last 2 comments are specifically why I included the words "high level guilds" in my comment.
There are many rank 20 guilds with no use for SH related currencies.
Still more non-20 but high level guilds buy their way out as its more time efficient for them to organize large amounts of AD than it is to play the old content. This includes old campaign currencies that can be purchased through SH voucher packs.
Still more smaller guilds just give up and languish because the massive timesink of grinding old areas for minimal SH progress seems hopeless.
My guild has graduated from 3 to 2.
And as far as Adv SOP, no not really. Trade a few rank 8s to lowbies that volunteer for the guild and you get more of those than you need. That is by FAR not the AD sink that items like gems, TOD currency, and frozen currency are. ..and no Im not contradicting myself here. Its still not actually worthwhile to spend the time getting those currencies manually. Make no mistake, the 1 currency that rules them all in NW is time.
Its not all bad.. Their recent spicing of dungeon chests with sought after EQ was a great start. Its easy to implement, and adds interest to content. In that case specifically however theres what, 1 really useful piece of EQ dropped from each dungeon?
They could add NEW transmutes.. dye sets.. now SH decore.. puzzle quests for achievments that arent just DPS related but add story. (ESO has managed this to some extent). Titles for certain collections of achievements. Expand the ability to trade low level currencies in for various goods and SH benefits. (This last would have to be gated to farming somehow. That may be why that isn't there already I realize.)
For now.. no, there is not much if any reason to lay a vivified paw in a low level area.
DLC would just make worse what already has happened, just at a faster and more disasterous rate.
Right now, depending on the time and zone and server population, it is often hard to scrape up enough people to do a 3-5 person content item, let alone 10+ or a guild strongholds thing. That's with "free' content that anyone with enough level etc. can log on and throw in. If you add DLC content you just cut the pool of players that can even be drawn from to do something. They have had to paid in advance and have it installed before they can even potentially group with you, even if they so desired to in the first place.
This just makes what already has happened worse. The old player base that got chased off after the disasterous stuff Mod 6+ get farther and farther from ever being enticed back, and the deeper and deeper the game gets in content from "end game", the harder it gets to gain new players and retain them, all games get into that problem. DLC just adds to the problem of getting them vested in a game. , Add the AD caps and time walls of campaigns to boons gain in the mix and as gamers see just what it will takes for them to "catch up" and they say "f" it and move on. I have tried repeatedly to get old guild mates and family to return, showing them that much of the old crud has been addressed and the new content isn't so HAMSTER, even offering to pay for them to have VIP out of my pocket etc! They look at that time wall and say "hell no". Even more "Hell No!" when they see to cut in half the time, they would need to pay real $$$ to skip campaigns, pay to NOT play essentually, that gets their backs up even more. With all that gap to end content they will never come back, leaving me with a solo guild with pack ratted vaults.
So toss on some DLC why don't you?*shrug* just more HAMSTER I and 3/4th of the server won't pay for, new players and old won't want to bother with, just more content you can enjoy solo or LFG for hours on end...GL!
Comments
The zen market is really structured to incentivize small impulse buys in conjunction with events. That's why you've got people hoarding everything for 2x RP or waiting for the 50% sales. There are only a few times a year where it actually make sense to buy anything from the zen market so it's kind of ridiculous to imply that they're "forcing" people to get zen to progress.
Still, to get on topic. That works. I mean, you can't expect your character to just magically stay at the top, when the ceiling gets higher. Yet you replace hard very hard earned and grinded epic gear for a piece of uncommon that you get in a quest, that is now better than what you had, but it is better, and you can now play through the new content....well, that is if the new content was fun and exciting anyway. That character is now still level 61, as I just can't bring myself to grind another character through 60-70.
The main problem with the current free2play model is that it is poorly priced and constructed.
Blood Ruby - Utterly useless. Is in direct competition against any other RP item in the game and extremly expensive.
Adventure Helper Pack - A huge waste of money.
Bags - Overprized as HAMSTER.
Keys - Overprized and useless. Especially the Legendary Dragon Key. Why not rework the key and let it work like that: Opens the additional dragon chest for anybody in the dungeon/skirmish. That would mean it has a lot of worth to it for the whole group.
Wards - We need so many and the only source is the zen-market which can be off-putting for a lot of potential customers (you have Events, use them to gain a minimum of Wards from it, in fact some events grant these wards but not everyone)
In general the monetization of Neverwinters free2play model feels always like that the games deliberatly throws some stones in my way only to be solved by money i need to invest.
Bagspace is such a system. We have 70 different refinement items, probably more. A starting character has only like 60 slots of bagspace. Not including stuff he wants to carry around like the cool thrones, potions, overload enchantments (the old ones still doesn't stack) and many more things. And it isn't even cheap. A 36 slot bag costs up to 15 Dollar.
Playing Neverwinter until a certain point as a new player feels like a penality. I mean the game is good, but like I said it throws annoyances in your way only to sell you the solution. Like you spread a disease only to sell the cure while you own the pharmacy.
And thats Neverwinter main problem with its monetization in my opinion.
Edit: At least that is the feeling I get from their whole monetization strategy.
I play for the exploration and novelty factor over all. I love new places to explore. With a DLC model the Devs are forced to build new content to get your money. With Neverwinter's current monetization model, there is no great incentive for them to do so.
Morgrim Orcbane 16,530 CW
Bloodlust Barbie 15,646 OP Tank
I guess I'll never ever buy another respec token, given the tediousness of the all or nothing changes the usage of the token requires.
Assuming that many players also sit on large stacks of respec tokens the introduction of loadouts makes more sense.
It's like introducing the runic bag after 60% of the population had bound GBoH. They would not have to introduce this runic bag, they could also have e.g. unified power/union/stability artifacts, turned all BtC refinement into BtA refinement or many other solutions to give us bagspace back.
Instead they sold us new bags with more space and in turn gave us the items that sit in that new bagspace :-)
If you like the model that other games have, feel free to play the other games.
"..while cash shop items (stuff you buy with zen that you've converted to AD) has increased exponentially."
No it hasn't. Lets have some actual citations here. What HAS changed in that time is the need to buy essential refining ingredients from the zen shop like coalescants. That was a pain, and argued to death at the time.
Aside from that very little has been added to the zen shop. In fact many things like some mounts that were exclusively available with zen are now found in the AH. This game has been made far less zen exclusive over the mentioned time frame. ..again with the exception of those bottlenecking refinement pieces.
NWO hasn't been losing content, its been losing relevant content. That has nothing with the amount of content available, but with the design of the game in regards to it. There is 0 reason for an endgame person in a high level guild to play any area other than the newest for the 2 monthes is usually takes to top out that campaign. There are no tie ins, no puzzles, no scavenger hunts, no reason to play or even know older areas. THAT needs to change and would yield returns for them in terms of long term player interest. ..far more than paying for DLC. That would suck.
Wow thats totally proof! If you were saying that 3 years ago.
Of course those steam numbers are going down, as its no longer the exclusive outlet. NWO is barely integrated with steam. Through slow transactions, walking back some functionality, and lack of promotion they have been weaning themselves off of steam. At the same time they have been promoting use through ARC and been actively promoting and building the console communities.
Btw i dont think people would pay to play something that dont come with a prize in a MMO, even if was to drop skins for armor, weapons and mounts, this would only be a "good seller" if those things where unbound to sell in AH...
ps I'm a old gamer, i dont like the dlc Stuff in any game... feels like i'm paying twice, and i hate to pay twice...
If you want to pay money to buy stuff, it is a lot better through Arc. It is basically handicapped if you use steam.
i.e. steam provides you value "reduced" service when you play this game.
I personally start the game without using steam or Arc.
Bro, do you even Stronghold? As part of something other than a WhaleGuild(tm) with everything unlocked? I've spent more time in older areas more since SH than it took to get those boons. The mimic is what first pushes to older areas, then the Explorer charts add more older areas to be in. I'd be happy if the SH sent us LESS often to older areas, as that doesn't help with current module's content.
Consider the medium/smaller guilds with low to medium SHs before you ask for more grinding elsewhere.
- There are many rank 20 guilds with no use for SH related currencies.
- Still more non-20 but high level guilds buy their way out as its more time efficient for them to organize large amounts of AD than it is to play the old content. This includes old campaign currencies that can be purchased through SH voucher packs.
- Still more smaller guilds just give up and languish because the massive timesink of grinding old areas for minimal SH progress seems hopeless.
My guild has graduated from 3 to 2.And as far as Adv SOP, no not really. Trade a few rank 8s to lowbies that volunteer for the guild and you get more of those than you need. That is by FAR not the AD sink that items like gems, TOD currency, and frozen currency are. ..and no Im not contradicting myself here. Its still not actually worthwhile to spend the time getting those currencies manually. Make no mistake, the 1 currency that rules them all in NW is time.
Its not all bad.. Their recent spicing of dungeon chests with sought after EQ was a great start. Its easy to implement, and adds interest to content. In that case specifically however theres what, 1 really useful piece of EQ dropped from each dungeon?
They could add NEW transmutes.. dye sets.. now SH decore.. puzzle quests for achievments that arent just DPS related but add story. (ESO has managed this to some extent). Titles for certain collections of achievements. Expand the ability to trade low level currencies in for various goods and SH benefits. (This last would have to be gated to farming somehow. That may be why that isn't there already I realize.)
For now.. no, there is not much if any reason to lay a vivified paw in a low level area.
Right now, depending on the time and zone and server population, it is often hard to scrape up enough people to do a 3-5 person content item, let alone 10+ or a guild strongholds thing. That's with "free' content that anyone with enough level etc. can log on and throw in. If you add DLC content you just cut the pool of players that can even be drawn from to do something. They have had to paid in advance and have it installed before they can even potentially group with you, even if they so desired to in the first place.
This just makes what already has happened worse. The old player base that got chased off after the disasterous stuff Mod 6+ get farther and farther from ever being enticed back, and the deeper and deeper the game gets in content from "end game", the harder it gets to gain new players and retain them, all games get into that problem. DLC just adds to the problem of getting them vested in a game.
,
Add the AD caps and time walls of campaigns to boons gain in the mix and as gamers see just what it will takes for them to "catch up" and they say "f" it and move on. I have tried repeatedly to get old guild mates and family to return, showing them that much of the old crud has been addressed and the new content isn't so HAMSTER, even offering to pay for them to have VIP out of my pocket etc! They look at that time wall and say "hell no". Even more "Hell No!" when they see to cut in half the time, they would need to pay real $$$ to skip campaigns, pay to NOT play essentually, that gets their backs up even more. With all that gap to end content they will never come back, leaving me with a solo guild with pack ratted vaults.
So toss on some DLC why don't you?*shrug* just more HAMSTER I and 3/4th of the server won't pay for, new players and old won't want to bother with, just more content you can enjoy solo or LFG for hours on end...GL!