5 Healadins in CN and ECC

oggycz · April 2017

Me, Sasha Grey, Jezereal, Ghoosty and Fryesworth did this run for fun. Here are some results:

Me:

Sasha Grey:

Jezereal:

Ghoosty:

Fryesworth:

Thank you guys for nice, but laggy run. Game had problem with 5 healadins.

isaintify1 · April 2017

looking at all our out going damage its pretty obvious that all damage output sucks. Our encoutners and at wills need a buff for damage. All I see for our damage is Aura of Courage, Burning Guidance, Healing Warmth, Smite,Divine Judgement. That needs to be changed and there needs to be a rework of the heal pally.

veywiil · April 2017

My damaged sucked, but didn't have Healing Warmth at all, and that's a HUGE component of it.

The big take away from this should be that anything above 5 healadins should be reconsidered... Time itself began to slow down, and I don't mean client side... The server itself was beginning to just lag or freeze up (ETOS) was the most noticeable. The lag was ALOT worse for oggycz, that's because he had to deal with the combat log output, which was likely tens of millions of lines per boss. Literally.

I have some video footage of the runs... I'm planning on editing the massive run times down to something watchable. One highlight to look forward to is the CN Balor hall. That was crazy...

EDIT: The damage output here wasn't great TBH. Orcus was a steady burn. Maybe 1%-1.5% every 5 seconds. The damage was consistent though, it didn't spike a whole lot. I should have the video up tomorrow. I'll post it in a new comment so look out for it.

So when's the 25 man healadin Tiamat party? I doubt the server could handle it, but I'd be interested in it.

trzebiat · April 2017

isaintify1 said:
looking at all our out going damage its pretty obvious that all damage output sucks. Our encoutners and at wills need a buff for damage. All I see for our damage is Aura of Courage, Burning Guidance, Healing Warmth, Smite,Divine Judgement. That needs to be changed and there needs to be a rework of the heal pally.

Look at it the other way. AoC, BG and HW are the biggest sources of damage, and are must have on Dev plus it makes it obvious how important is Aura of Courage and stacking HP.

oggycz · April 2017

trzebiat#2067 said:

isaintify1 said:
looking at all our out going damage its pretty obvious that all damage output sucks. Our encoutners and at wills need a buff for damage. All I see for our damage is Aura of Courage, Burning Guidance, Healing Warmth, Smite,Divine Judgement. That needs to be changed and there needs to be a rework of the heal pally.
Look at it the other way. AoC, BG and HW are the biggest sources of damage, and are must have on Dev plus it makes it obvious how important is Aura of Courage and stacking HP.

Yep, true. And these dmg sources do not depend on critical chance. So critical chance is not most important for healadin.

But very interesting for me is big difference between HW/BG ticks in our run. Dont know, why I have so many ticks. Encounters, boons? Dont sure. I used Bond, Vow and BL most of time, RA only for bosses. And Shield of Fate, or Heroism as daylies.

veywiil · April 2017

oggycz#5356 said:

Don't know, why I have so many ticks. Encounters, boons? Dont sure. I used Bond, Vow and BL most of time, RA only for bosses. And Shield of Fate, or Heroism as daylies.

This discrepancy is actually very easy to explain. As you may recall before the run started I was trying to organize who was running what skills. I specifically mentioned that you should be the only one running BoV. Bond of Virtue does NOT stack, so you only need 1 running. Although we technically had 2 at times... If you read the 2nd part of the tooltip...

Bond Of Virtue said:
Additionally any time you heal a bonded ally, all bonded allies recieve 15% of that healing.

This is why you and only you had so many ticks, because you were the one running BoV. So you should theoretically have 4-5 times the ticks of anyone else. Like I said that isn't true, because we had a second BoV at times, so your's and the other one were taking turns being applied. I'm fairly confident this is the answer given what I was seeing in the video.

oggycz · April 2017

And what is problem with all of us running BoV? Even if its not stack, it would be useful for proc BG/HW. Or not?

veywiil · April 2017

It would be essentially wasted BEST case, and it could be worse. If you have HW at 3/3 and I only have it at 1/3 for example, and I overwrite your BoV for 1 second, I'm taking away all of your BoV damage, you won't get it. Which in this case is 10 allies, because companions count.

So let's say we get 20 ticks of Healing Warmth through BoV in that time, as a group we are now dealing 20* 2000 (40,000) less damage thanks to me running BoV, without maximizing it. And that's just in the 1 second window. That's why running 2 BoV's is bad. Only the person who can maximize the effects of it should be running it. In this case that's whoever has 3/3 HW and BG on their build.

To further dramatize the effects of DPS loss, let's assume one random guy is running BoV without either BG or HW at all, and in the entire boss fight his BoV wins for only 10 seconds assuming 20 proc's of both BG and HW a second [NOT unreasonable given what we were seeing], verses someone who has 3/3 HW and BG.
The DPS loss is: 1,600,000. From just HW and BG not counting anything else. That's 160k damage every second as straight DPS loss. And that's assuming he is outputting as many heals per second as you are, which is a bad assumption to start with.

Here is the math: 10 * (20*(6000) + 20*(2000))

rubytrue · April 2017

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of BoV; I think the issue arises out of the healing aspect of Vow being applicable only once per target (I think all casters still get the personal damage bonus that Vow confers). If two people apply Vow to the same target, only the first application will proc the healing component resulting in proccing BoV for the player thereby giving the impression that BoV is only working for one person. (To be sure, multiple instances of BoV don't seem to interact with each other resulting in a log scaling of healing/damage; in other words, the healing a paladin receives from another paladin's BoV doesn't seem to proc their own BoV creating a BoV/Prism feedback loop.)

So, under the scenario you provided above, if the person with the lesser amount of BG/HW paints/tags a target with a Vow before the player with a higher amount of BG/HW, only the lower amount will count giving the impression that only one BoV is in effect.

I came to that conclusion when you, Sasha, and myself were running ELoL together and I was at the bottom of paingiver even though I have two ranks of HW, Sasha has one, and you have zero. The two of you were leading me, I think, because you were both running ahead of me and painting targets before I had a chance; ELoL has multiple small clusters of mobs so it isn't exactly a target rich environment. I think what cemented that theory for me was when we faced Lostmauth, and I made a concerted effort to paint him with Vow first and keep it up. After Lostmauth, where there is only one mob, I jumped two spots on paingiver and significantly narrowed the gap between Sasha and myself that run because I had basically VowBlocked(tm) the two of you. (Nothing personal, just wanted to test that theory out.)

So what does this mean? In target rich environments, all DevOPs should have BoV and Vow since they can all paint/tag independent targets resulting in multiple proccings of BoV/prism. In low target environments, however, it is best that only one or two DevOPs run Vow; we have so many ways to heal others/self that it still makes sense to continue running BoV resulting in Prism procs for BG/HW for everyone.

veywiil · April 2017

rubytrue said:
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of BoV; I think the issue arises out of the healing aspect of Vow being applicable only once per target (I think all casters still get the personal damage bonus that Vow confers).

I believe a test dummy and ACT could solve this theory.

I was about to write a fairly large theory contradicting your statement but I actually can't factually only based off the tooltip, which is infamous for being wrong. I believe the only way to solve this is through some testing. There is a ton of very complicated interactions, especially around the stealadin build, and what proc's what and in what order. I'm inclined to do this in the future some time, hit me up. Although it would take probably days of testing combined to make sure we have correct results on how all of this works. [Prism, BoV, VoE, AoC, HW] and how it loops through all of the Dev Op's. Testing this would be near madness inducing without breaking it down 1 layer at a time... I can guarantee 2 things without testing though.

BoV won't cause an infinite loop with Prism or something else because it can't be stacked from multiple sources. Thus point 2.
Running multiples is still wasteful, irregardless of Vow, slotting 2 BoV is wasteful, because another encounter power could be used. The only exception is if you are expecting something like a random Tiamat roar to ruin your day and toggle BoV off on you.

armadeonx · April 2017

It is entirely possible that it would overwrite the previous application, if it does then you're right that two people slotting it would be a waste of an encounter power.

It's also possible that it won't accept a 're-application' until the 10 second timer expires or even refreshes with each new cast regardless of who's casting it.

However if bonded targets have a refraction effect then anyone using any other heal skill could theoretically receive a multiple HW/BG effect - depending on whether the game regards that healing 'prism' as coming from the source of the heals or the primary healed target.

damoc · April 2017

I always assumed that Bond of virtue propagate heals from your powers to allies within your bond which means it will only heal if you're the source of the heal through a power. Vow is a triggered source but it's vow that heals when an ally stike the painted foe, thus you heal with a power. Since you heal with a power, every other ally in the Bond heal. If they lifesteal or healed by a source independent from you instead, it won't be propagated.

Maybe I'm just daydreaming. Has anyone verified if prism/beacon heals are actualy propagated by vow? (having an ally within prism range and one at the edge of Bond, does the one farthest from the OP actually get healed?) If not it would explain why you don't have infinte healing loop since Beacon/prism are heals from feats not heals from powers. In this case, having multiple Bonds active would not really be a problem since in that case Bond would be more 'selfish' than previously assumed since it would be more like an 'extended personnal healing zone'

I hope my musing are clear enough and that the magnificent testers in this thread can verify if it's complete elucubrations or if I'm onto somthing.

veywiil · April 2017

damoc#3687 said:
I always assumed that Bond of virtue propagate heals from your powers to allies within your bond which means it will only heal if you're the source of the heal through a power. Vow is a triggered source but it's vow that heals when an ally strike the painted foe, thus you heal with a power. Since you heal with a power, every other ally in the Bond heal. If they lifesteal or healed by a source independent from you instead, it won't be propagated.

Maybe I'm just daydreaming. Has anyone verified if prism/beacon heals are actually propagated by vow? (having an ally within prism range and one at the edge of Bond, does the one farthest from the OP actually get healed?) If not it would explain why you don't have infinte healing loop since Beacon/prism are heals from feats not heals from powers. In this case, having multiple Bonds active would not really be a problem since in that case Bond would be more 'selfish' than previously assumed since it would be more like an 'extended personal healing zone'

I hope my musing are clear enough and that the magnificent testers in this thread can verify if it's complete elucubrations or if I'm onto somthing.

Sable and me have tentatively talked about doing some testing later this week. There is a GREAT deal of interactions that will need to be sifted through. There is over 9 things I can think of that have an impact on the combo's seen above in the ACT numbers. [Prism, Beacon, Vow, BoV, BG, HW, BL, AoC, Lifesteal, Oath Strike, and Shift] This will NOT be a small testing effort.

We have also talked briefly about this subject topic directly, under an hour ago in-game. We came up with no hard conclusions. But I am now under the impression that Vow should not be run more than once either, although that doesn't make sense from the video evidence. I honestly don't know about this anymore. The more I try to reason through what's going on the farther my answer seems from what's actually going on. Until we come back with hard numbers from testing, please take all posts regarding these numbers with a grain of salt. I don't think any of us know exactly how this works when you start putting BoV,Prism,Vow and any other of these into play together. Much less how multiples interact together.

tl;dr: We know nothing in close detail about these interactions, tons of testing required.

armadeonx · April 2017

The thing to bear in mind is that if a healer heals me and triggers prism on me I am credited with the damage, it's possible the heal from vow works the same way. We don't actually know unless it's tested.

trzebiat · April 2017

armadeonx said:
The thing to bear in mind is that if a healer heals me and triggers prism on me I am credited with the damage, it's possible the heal from vow works the same way. We don't actually know unless it's tested.

You mean running Prot using Prism/BG/HW with Dev using Vow? If so, then yeah, it works. BG and HW text all over the place. The heal from Vow seems to be like from Life Steal or DC's Astral Seal, doesn't require to actually restore health, you get the heal even if at full health and it will go through Prism triggering BG/HW. Or did you meant something else?

armadeonx · April 2017

no, that's what I meant

veywiil · April 2017

Hey folks, YouTube decided that rendering was difficult, so it added borders to all sides, making the video smaller technically, but I do have some edited footage of the run. You're welcome to ask questions and make comments.

Specifically regarding Balor hall, It's difficult to tell that time is indeed slowing down, but watch the cast speed of Burning Light, as well as the Rubberbanding that occurs while moving. Orcus only took 1 try with 1 down and no deaths, we had someone drop almost instantly upon entering, because orcus likes to crit people. Other than that you'll see that because there was sooooo much healing going on, that people literally don't visually take damage. The health bar doesn't move, heck it doesn't even glow (watch when I take damage). You either are at full or downed, there's visually no other states during boss fights.

This is the video Link.

majorcharvenak · April 2017

So to summarize all this - More testing of the abilities, and how multiple pallys running the same abilities interact (or dont), is needed. Main damage sources are from AoC, Healing warmth and Burning guidance interaction and not from encounters and at wills, which could do with a boost (possibly at the expense of parring down damage of AoC/BG/HW). Finally, running a dungeon or trail with more than 5 Devo pallies causes a Time Stop spell the CWs could only dream of and future efforts to run a 25 healadin Tiamat party is a plot to show the playerbase which class is the true gods of Neverwinter as it only takes a small few of us to break the server.

Joking aside, well done to you all for running these tests and sharing what you've learned with the masses.

- Shia -

Shiarrael t'Charvon (STO)
Sereska Miliskeera (NW)

rubytrue · April 2017

I'm going to throw something out there, and I am not sure at all what to make of it (aside from the fact that the Prisms are interacting).

I looked back at the data from the run that oggycz and I did as two DevOPs in a group (you can find the thread here.

Specifically, I looked at Oggycz's Total damage across the two runs, then broken down along HW, AoC, and BG; I also looked at the number of Prism procs between the two runs. We will call the run with Oggycz and myself Run1 and the 5-man run Run2.

Total Damage:
Run1: 82M vs Run2: 198M resulting in an increase of 241% more damage

Healing Warmth:
Run1: 24M vs Run2: 89M resulting in an increase of 370% more damage (not sure if change in rank in boon level between the two runs)

Aura of Courage:
Run1: 25M vs Run2: 44M resulting in an increase of 196% more damage

Burning Guidance:
Run1: 8M vs Run2: 20M resulting in an increase of 250% more damage

Prism Swings:
Run1: 19K vs Run2: 142k resulting in an increase of 749% more Prism swings

Prism Hits:
Run1: 79 vs Run2: 448 resulting in an increase of 567% more Prism hits

armadeonx · April 2017

That would possibly suggest that anyone healing a bonded target can trigger the multiple BG/HW effect. If you guys can run it again but with 3 using BoV but where only one of you has BG/HW. If you see a drop in dps (compared to the above) then it would suggest a negative impact from overwriting each other.

isaintify1 · April 2017

trzebiat#2067 said:

isaintify1 said:
looking at all our out going damage its pretty obvious that all damage output sucks. Our encoutners and at wills need a buff for damage. All I see for our damage is Aura of Courage, Burning Guidance, Healing Warmth, Smite,Divine Judgement. That needs to be changed and there needs to be a rework of the heal pally.
Look at it the other way. AoC, BG and HW are the biggest sources of damage, and are must have on Dev plus it makes it obvious how important is Aura of Courage and stacking HP.

What I mean is compared to everything else our damage is awful. We have to rely on those for our damage dealing. Would be nice to not have to rely on those for our only source of damage.

isaintify1 · April 2017

armadeonx said:
The thing to bear in mind is that if a healer heals me and triggers prism on me I am credited with the damage, it's possible the heal from vow works the same way. We don't actually know unless it's tested.

Vowed targets when hit by allies are healed. This causes damage for us with our burning guidance and healing warmth. I am pretty sure it only applies to the caster of vow, so the more multi procs on a single target the more damage you deal. The reason why we did not do as much damage in these runs is because there were not enough procs going around. I WISH it counted everyones healing warmth and burning guidance because that mean we could melt any boss in a matter of seconds.

damoc · April 2017

Since we proc a lot it's natural that we require a lot of computing power (imagine a 5 man team in melee range of 5 foes that recieve a heal throug BL while BoV active. This simple scenario means that each foe takes one tik damage from BL (5 procs) each ally get 1 healing from BL which is propagated 5 times (bond) does it mean 5 healing per party memeber? potentialy yes. So 25 healing this wil potentially trigger BG and HV 1 per ally so 4 BG and 4 HW (I don't try to overcomplicate this) which means each foe will take 4 BG procs and 4 HW procs so in total 40 damge tiks...
With one Tik of BL we have 45 damage tiks on all foes and potentially 30 healing tiks. 1 player action 75 consequent server procs (with simplified hypothesis) How can we NOT generate lag?

rubytrue · April 2017

damoc#3687 said:
Since we proc a lot it's natural that we require a lot of computing power (imagine a 5 man team in melee range of 5 foes that recieve a heal throug BL while BoV active. This simple scenario means that each foe takes one tik damage from BL (5 procs) each ally get 1 healing from BL which is propagated 5 times (bond) does it mean 5 healing per party memeber? potentialy yes. So 25 healing this wil potentially trigger BG and HV 1 per ally so 4 BG and 4 HW (I don't try to overcomplicate this) which means each foe will take 4 BG procs and 4 HW procs so in total 40 damge tiks...
With one Tik of BL we have 45 damage tiks on all foes and potentially 30 healing tiks. 1 player action 75 consequent server procs (with simplified hypothesis) How can we NOT generate lag?

Yep. And you've only just begun to scratch the surface of interactions; imagine if someone activates BL with a Plaguefire enchant, does non-crit and has an Owlbear (or crits and has Magistrate's patience) or has an artifact set that activates another proc (Black Ice Set). It just goes on and on and on.....

damoc · April 2017

yes but by our very makeup we multiply our effects: bond multiply our heals, our heals multiply our HW/BG each time we can have a 1->N scale at ach stage mich means we end up with a N^m complexity something you learn first when one teach you algorithims is a BAD idea. Better to have a m*N complexity. Magistrate fits in this mold because although it's a multiple hit since it's DoT, it is a linear increase (for each target, they recieve each one DoT)

rubytrue · April 2017

damoc#3687 said:
yes but by our very makeup we multiply our effects: bond multiply our heals, our heals multiply our HW/BG each time we can have a 1->N scale at ach stage mich means we end up with a N^m complexity something you learn first when one teach you algorithims is a BAD idea. Better to have a m*N complexity. Magistrate fits in this mold because although it's a multiple hit since it's DoT, it is a linear increase (for each target, they recieve each one DoT)

Yeah, but if you are a stealadin like me, even theoretically linear increases like Magstrate turns into a log scale as it procs a lifesteal which in turn procs Prism feeding back into Bond algorithm; each one of those ticks from Magistrates has a 40% chance to heal me resulting in some serious HW/BG procs. It gets pretty insane. (There is, I believe, an upper limit as to how often BG/HW procs per ally -->Once/Second, but there doesn't seem to be any upper limit on the number of allies that can be affected by BG/HW. I'm not sure if there is a limit on the number of mobs each ally can affect with BG, but I think the tooltip states that each ally can affect 5 targets with HW.

Jezereal (veywiil) and I (mostly Jezereal; he has ACT; I am mostly a test dummy and sounding board) have been doing some testing, and Bond is WAAAY more complicated and complex than it appears at first glance.

damoc · April 2017

rubytrue said:

Jezereal (veywiil) and I (mostly Jezereal; he has ACT; I am mostly a test dummy and sounding board) have been doing some testing, and Bond is WAAAY more complicated and complex than it appears at first glance.

I thought at first that bond only propagated heals from your powers but you tell me that it also propagates heals from feats? (like beacon of hope and prism) what a headache inducing prospect. With this, your not a stealadin, you're an extremlagadin, or a bandwidthhoardadin pick the less ridiculous one

rubytrue · April 2017

I'm not sure if it procs from your feats, per se, but lifesteal procs prism which heals allies which procs BG/HW. So yeah, it is an indirect proc.

damoc · April 2017

rubytrue said:
I'm not sure if it procs from your feats, per se, but lifesteal procs prism which heals allies which procs BG/HW. So yeah, it is an indirect proc.

That I'm well aware. but I thought that the fact that you don't have an endless heal loop with prism+bond could be explaine by the fact that bond doesn't heal allies if the souce isn't a power.

One way to test it is to have a pally, a DC and a third person run this series of tests:
Pally as bond active, DC is next to the OP, third is at the edge of bond.
If I don't speak rubbish, prism has a 30 feet radius while bond is a 60 feet radius so normally if OP activates a daily, the neaby DC will be affected by prism but not the third person. With this configuration we can see if Bond propagates prism heals (and beacon heals too). We can also check what kind of heals from the DC if any is propagated by the bond
Once this interaction is tested, you can then test a 2 bond configuration but it would be nightmare inducing to test a 2 bond configuration if we're not sure of what a single bond does.

Also of note, I think Bond only propagates an actual heal which is another way to stop a heal loop (once your full the loop ends)

veywiil · April 2017

damoc#3687 said:

Once this interaction is tested, you can then test a 2 bond configuration but it would be nightmare inducing to test a 2 bond configuration if we're not sure of what a single bond does.

Way ahead of you on part of that bud. Tested part of this last night, me and Sable were banging our heads against a wall for the better part of 2 hours on mathematical formulas regarding JUST BoV, with no other interactions. The tooltip should be about 10 paragraphs to aptly explain what it does. Either that or "Healing Propogation, something... something..." would be a valid tooltip too. Only started testing last night, it will take a good long time, sorry... Want to make sure I do it right though.

If you would like to help out with the testing hit me up, would be glad to have the extra hands.

5 Healadins in CN and ECC

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