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Damnation is not dead!
kallephi
Member Posts: 281 Arc User
Hello, hellish fellas. I was bored these days and I thought "Meh, it would not hurt to go to preview and see damnation dps on dummy"...I did that and my dps was really good compared to fury. But we all know we can't really test these things on a dummy, so I decided to give Damnation a shot today.
I ran MSVA 3 times as HB Fury (just my standard build) with a group and then they decided to take a 5min break, that time I changed to Damnation just to check my dps, and it was amazing, surprisingly good.
We ran around 8-9 times in a row with almost the same group from the beginning, maybe we switched one person once and that's it. We had 2 GFs, 2 DCs, 2 CWs, 1 OP, 1 HR, 2 SWs. We had 5-7min runs, so the group was very good. We even beat the trial in 5min once where we brought the boss down to 40% health in 42 seconds, that made the 2 manticores to stay up for 2 blizzard durations at once...se we had just 2 manticores phases.
I'm gonna post some pics of completions along with the video for Master SVA: there's a whole fight in this video along with 4 another msva endings, 3 of which are with the same group and the last was just done 2 hours ago.
I'm doing this just for fun and to see Damnation's potential, and I'm happy with the results.
For MY toon, for MY playstyle, Damnation is a little bit superior for stationary or close-to-stationary fights where the soul puppet excels (melee hit + spitfire)...but, for bosses who move a lot like Hati and Drufi, the dps is way inferior to Fury.
Natsu and I ran an FBI just to see my dps. For the first boss (Hati), he did 100M damage and I did 60M damage...soul puppet couldn't do much thing. For Dragon Turtle there was a difference...I did 79M damage and he did 109M damage. But, SB is supposed to do more single target damage, right?
But, on Drufi, he did 50% more damage than me (like on Hati)...my soul puppet just couldn't hit Drufi much.
It's difficult to compare 2 toons since he got different stuff from me..things that favor him while I got some things that favor me (like owlbear). The reason of the FBI run was not to compare my HB Damnation with his SB Fury, but to compare my performance as HB Fury vs. HB Damnation.
I felt the run to be the same for the whole dungeon except by Hati and Drufi fight like I said before, but for ME Damnation was superior in Master SVA.
I'm gonna post the FBI video with the logs on my Video Topic in 12 hours or so along with the logs. But I can say it was 449M damage for Natsu and 384M damage for me (according to the logs).
I still have to put 2 points into Accursed Souls because mine has only 2 points in it at the moment and I don't feel like respecing because of 2 points in that...Accursed Souls is not for damage at all, it's for Soul Investiture...if I needed damage I'd just go Brood of Hadar.
Executioneer's Gift (15% more damage as target's health diminishes), Brutal Curse (10% more damage to cursed targets) and Creeping Death...that's pretty much what you get from Fury (at least for my Fury build).
Perma Soul Puppet dealing 200-500k AVERAGE damage per hit in the long run depending on the group composition..spiking at 1.5M damage in a 5-man group to 3M damage in a 10-man group. Ghastly Commander (10% more damage while you have a Soul Puppet active). Power of the Nine Hells (not a big deal but you help the group and gain more freedom of movement and positioning).
You can have both Dark Revelry and Power of the Nine Hells but you need to choose between 10% more damage from Ghastly Commander and 100% more soul puppet damage (our main and highest dps tool). I didn't choose any so I put points in both, leading me no way to have Dark Revelry anymore.
The Soul Puppet doesn't die at all, except when a massive damage skill is used by the boss like Call of Winter or Orcus' orbs.
I need to do more tests though. I ran msva with 3 other groups but the runs were not great as this one from the video.
In the end I can't really compare my dps in a group named X with my dps in a group named Y because dps depends on party composition, buffs and debuffs...I had no GF on my group on my HB Fury video and it was 517k dps...I had a GF on my group on my HB Damnation video and it was 700k dps. You can check the video from this topic and the video from my other topic http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1225926/lysaaera-3-9-hb-fury-videos-with-esva-run-log
I'm new to HB Damnation, I need to do way more tests...and yes, different groups can lead to a huge gap between dps....maybe doing a run with the same group with a GF in my party and then moving me to a party without a GF to see the difference.
These are 2 screenshots for my first 2 runs with the group using HB Fury build:
There's a 6:02 run as Damnation on the video.
Here is the video for the Master SVA run (and 4 ending runs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8QV8jJ73JU
And here are the logs for the first (and complete) run from the video:
I'm not saying Damnation is better or worse than Fury, it depends on each player, what I'm saying is that for ME, for MY person, the damage is almost the same, a bit more in my opinion. I hope you enjoy the video.
PS: Yeah, I need to activate that Windows lol.
I ran MSVA 3 times as HB Fury (just my standard build) with a group and then they decided to take a 5min break, that time I changed to Damnation just to check my dps, and it was amazing, surprisingly good.
We ran around 8-9 times in a row with almost the same group from the beginning, maybe we switched one person once and that's it. We had 2 GFs, 2 DCs, 2 CWs, 1 OP, 1 HR, 2 SWs. We had 5-7min runs, so the group was very good. We even beat the trial in 5min once where we brought the boss down to 40% health in 42 seconds, that made the 2 manticores to stay up for 2 blizzard durations at once...se we had just 2 manticores phases.
I'm gonna post some pics of completions along with the video for Master SVA: there's a whole fight in this video along with 4 another msva endings, 3 of which are with the same group and the last was just done 2 hours ago.
I'm doing this just for fun and to see Damnation's potential, and I'm happy with the results.
For MY toon, for MY playstyle, Damnation is a little bit superior for stationary or close-to-stationary fights where the soul puppet excels (melee hit + spitfire)...but, for bosses who move a lot like Hati and Drufi, the dps is way inferior to Fury.
Natsu and I ran an FBI just to see my dps. For the first boss (Hati), he did 100M damage and I did 60M damage...soul puppet couldn't do much thing. For Dragon Turtle there was a difference...I did 79M damage and he did 109M damage. But, SB is supposed to do more single target damage, right?
But, on Drufi, he did 50% more damage than me (like on Hati)...my soul puppet just couldn't hit Drufi much.
It's difficult to compare 2 toons since he got different stuff from me..things that favor him while I got some things that favor me (like owlbear). The reason of the FBI run was not to compare my HB Damnation with his SB Fury, but to compare my performance as HB Fury vs. HB Damnation.
I felt the run to be the same for the whole dungeon except by Hati and Drufi fight like I said before, but for ME Damnation was superior in Master SVA.
I'm gonna post the FBI video with the logs on my Video Topic in 12 hours or so along with the logs. But I can say it was 449M damage for Natsu and 384M damage for me (according to the logs).
I still have to put 2 points into Accursed Souls because mine has only 2 points in it at the moment and I don't feel like respecing because of 2 points in that...Accursed Souls is not for damage at all, it's for Soul Investiture...if I needed damage I'd just go Brood of Hadar.
Executioneer's Gift (15% more damage as target's health diminishes), Brutal Curse (10% more damage to cursed targets) and Creeping Death...that's pretty much what you get from Fury (at least for my Fury build).
Perma Soul Puppet dealing 200-500k AVERAGE damage per hit in the long run depending on the group composition..spiking at 1.5M damage in a 5-man group to 3M damage in a 10-man group. Ghastly Commander (10% more damage while you have a Soul Puppet active). Power of the Nine Hells (not a big deal but you help the group and gain more freedom of movement and positioning).
You can have both Dark Revelry and Power of the Nine Hells but you need to choose between 10% more damage from Ghastly Commander and 100% more soul puppet damage (our main and highest dps tool). I didn't choose any so I put points in both, leading me no way to have Dark Revelry anymore.
The Soul Puppet doesn't die at all, except when a massive damage skill is used by the boss like Call of Winter or Orcus' orbs.
I need to do more tests though. I ran msva with 3 other groups but the runs were not great as this one from the video.
In the end I can't really compare my dps in a group named X with my dps in a group named Y because dps depends on party composition, buffs and debuffs...I had no GF on my group on my HB Fury video and it was 517k dps...I had a GF on my group on my HB Damnation video and it was 700k dps. You can check the video from this topic and the video from my other topic http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1225926/lysaaera-3-9-hb-fury-videos-with-esva-run-log
I'm new to HB Damnation, I need to do way more tests...and yes, different groups can lead to a huge gap between dps....maybe doing a run with the same group with a GF in my party and then moving me to a party without a GF to see the difference.
These are 2 screenshots for my first 2 runs with the group using HB Fury build:
There's a 6:02 run as Damnation on the video.
Here is the video for the Master SVA run (and 4 ending runs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8QV8jJ73JUAnd here are the logs for the first (and complete) run from the video:
I'm not saying Damnation is better or worse than Fury, it depends on each player, what I'm saying is that for ME, for MY person, the damage is almost the same, a bit more in my opinion. I hope you enjoy the video.
PS: Yeah, I need to activate that Windows lol.
Ly'saaera, Hellbringer Fury Scourge Warlock of Thieves World
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
2
Comments
Did you spend points into mocking spirit instead of warding spirit to boost puppets HP?
Would be interesting what a SB damnation deals compared to a SB fury vs singel target. The SB-build damnation/fury (25/10) having critical promise and burning soul.
PS: just saw your spec in that video, btw. is PB a big deal?
I remember someone wrote that PB may flank targets...not sure if I understood correctly, but one point may be sufficient, since the damage is meh as far as I remember.
I gonna try another route being damnation, something like this being more tanky by that and I like that 5 sec buff from PoP
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/sw?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1xiiu0i:1550000:1b50y5v:1000000&h=1&p=hlb&o=0
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
To get dark revelry you need to drop wrathful souls or ghastly commander.
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
I took it for real but did someone test this lately?
From my side I can´t see a big drop in damage being HB damnation, but I also did not run that much content.
SB damnation could be pretty good on single target, I agree.
I do like HB >SB gameplay, so I stay with HB.
It´s just a variation and in the end, it doesn´t change anything about the actual state of the game, wich forces a lot of strikerclasses to wait for hours to get into an acceptable group for mSVA
All you need is Itemlevel, noone asks for your build and you may perform very poorly in the end, all that counts is 4k+..lol
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
That being said, glad you're having fun with it!
For obvious reasons Fury is more about personal DPS (emphasis on striker and self buffs) and the devs have been hinting that Temptation is probably going to turn out to be more of a leader feat path (and will probably even get its own mitigation buffs at some point, in exchange for damage).
This puts Damnation in a pretty unique position.
The thing is that Damnation is probably going to be using gear/powers that increases overall party DPS, in a large part because doing that increases the damage of both your warlock and your Soul Puppet (aka double bang for your buck), in contrast to straight +%damage effects that generally do not affect your Soul Puppet. That means using powers like Dreadtheft and (feated) Pillar of Power, feats like Power of the Nine Hells and Dark Revelry, and gear like the Vanguard's Banner artifact. You even help grant your allies consistent Combat Advantage damage with your Soul Puppet, simply because you'll be doing that for yourself too. It's a unique playstyle that is consistent with the summoner class archetype from other hack and slash RPGs/MMOs, because the damage they do is split between different characters.
Obviously you can play your Fury/Damnation lock however you want, I'm simply pointing out that they have different tendencies - HB Damnation can get BOTH Power of the Nine Hells and Dark Revelry, for example, while HB Fury can only choose one. Fury will likely go after high HP targets first to maximize their burst potential, for example, while Damnation will go after the weaker targets first in order to quickly gain stacks of Soul Investiture. Given the choice, Fury will always pick straight up +% damage, while Damnation might pick either reduced target mitigation or increased power (although straight up +%damage usually has no effect, the power stat does improve Soul Puppet damage).
Hopefully the devs already recognize this and are using this as a foundation to further diversify the two.
I got to be honest, I don't like buffing in video games and online games (but I do on pen and paper RPGs). I prefer the massive damage guys. On Wow I played as Fury Warrior (a.k.a the big stupid fighter), on DDO I played with the burst damage melee builds.
I always favor what increases my dps. I prefer having my toon dealing high dps than depending on the group, because you know, sometimes you just get bad groups...and that's the reason I don't use dreadtheft. The way it works annoys me.
But I'm not totally like what they call "selfish-dps", I use Dark Revelry. If something helps me and the party, I'm ok with that. I know some people who don't get anything who could buff the party even if it would buff them so they can top the charts, and that's ridiculous in my opinion.
Some people like the support role. There's a SW on my alliance who loves to heal/buff/debuff, but he hates dpsing. I'm the contrary.
I have a DC for purposes of buffing, I just don't play on her too much.
I'm just bored that we don't have many options. It's HB Fury/Damnation or SB Fury/Damnation and that's all. Temptation is not dps at all.
The classes should be reworked in my opinion. GWF is even worse without options, it's swordmaster with second tree and that's pretty much your option if you want to be decent.
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
Some guys indeed don't go mainstream(dps) role. And can stay as supporters. Also behalf of temptations I dissagree that temp is not dps at all.. Why? Because warlock by nature is striker , and feats are just tools to extent certain powers/role.
By dps sure temp is last one compared to damn and fury. But yet its still remain as sub striker.
Anyways,, looks like u did what I was planning to do after I back from vacation. Its been lot of claims that how bad damnation build is, but looks like its not so bad at all. All is just because its require slightly different gameplay. Also damnation is what u can call balanced build. Which have exelent survivability and decent damage output. But as always, lot of players dismiss damnation only because nwo community hate balanced builds, and they prefer either top dps, or top heal or top tank.
As for class rework, well I still do think firstly devs should rewise power scaling in game.
I can bet that if all boons(campaing/stronghold), mounts powers and insignias would be disabled for 2 months. THen all so called useless builds become mainstream. And more less u will get balance in some degree.
For example enough to remember first 2 months after mod 6 realease. Glasscanon builds become kinda useless, because they could not last long enough, and they died from couple slaps. And due that lot of players came with balanced builds.
After Stronghold introduction glasscanons become mainstream once again, who cares about features to boost players survivability, if u can go glasscanon and apply strongholds def boon?
So now mainstream are top dps, top tank, top heal, top buff classes. Personally since underdark mod release I met only 2 cw's who even dared use Arcane singularity, which is brilliant CC daily power. But now lot of cw's just laught, they all pick only dps powers, who cares about survivability or CC powers...
Balancing can be done when power scaling will be fixed, and there would be situation where certain builds get chance to prove it''s worth. As now CC focused CW are useless, damnation even its Ok, its still consider worhtless due lacking top dps.
p.s thats only my opinion...
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
"Some people like the support role. There's a SW on my alliance who loves to heal/buff/debuff, but he hates dpsing. I'm the contrary."
I was clearly talking about you, Hades! hahahahaha
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
Probably I where way to annoying if alliance still do remember me.. Also I was thinking about other temp sw's within ally.
I remember that there where Lustina as temp HB too who actually can heal slightly more than me, and also one other temp SB which name can't remember. But thats not mean there where/are no other temp sw's there..
Probably they are not so annoying as me..
Anyways,, its good that u had picked damnation sw build and proved that its not as bad as most players think. I planned to pick damnation and check what can you do it with low gs builds. And promote it as I did with temp sw, but it's seem I will not had to do so..
Anyways,, if all goes OK, soon enough i will back online, it would be nice to see do that new dungeon is really that hard as some claims or its still more trolling rather than real challange. And if u remember I just love suiciders missions :P
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
( But I doesn't dislike often ranking in top 5 dps in demo
Then good luck for Damnation with your Ly'saaera !
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
So far the only things that seem to consistently affect the Soul Puppet are feats, weapon damage and debuffs (on your enemies).
You might find this useful if you're researching debuffs, someone (Kudos to them) took pains to assemble this info and constantly keep it up-to-date (as of the latest patch, not counting ninja changes I suppose).
Old damnation was the cheapest route to DPS in game, as you stacked buffs and then let pet hit away..
Withotu seeing your actual act logs and only seeing the end result of your total damage, we really dont know 100% where your damage is coming from.
Compare your damnation to your fury build and see a breakdown..
In old damnation, my pet basically did 55% of all of my dps..
I miss damnation and i think they erred in removing it myself.. as it was a way for people to DPS at lower I levels , without having to spend a bazillion AD to play the game.
I dont think a 2.8k SW is going to rock your #s, so I would say NEW damnation is still gear dependent.
So unlike Fury which needs to pump up crit to reach face-melting level damage (check out guides like Vladek's here in the Nine Hells, lots of good basic SW tips) Damnation can make do with a more conservative setup to reach great DPS. You will still need to stack crit like crazy, but you won't be in as much pressure to upgrade your +crit items because of your Soul Puppet.
For the record, the soul puppet of a 4k player and the soul puppet of 2k+ player (assuming both players have the exact same feats and weapons) will both do the exact same base damage.
We need to see some act posts to really see where damage is coming from.
For your at wills you want hellish rebuke levelled up ASAP, it is your best at-will and is a beast, spam it between all your encounters. anything else is up to you, personally I slot Dark Spiral Aura.
For my single target encounters I use pillar of power, Hadar's grasp, and killing flames. that's our most powerful single target rotation but if you like Warlocks Bargain hang on to it.
For crowds It varies, sometimes I use Pillar of Power, Fiery Bolt, and Arms of Hadar, sometimes I sub Arms for killing flames if things are dying ultra quick before I can pull Arms off.
For daily I only ever use Tyrannical curse on packs of enemies with a lot of HP, it's not worth it on easy packs and definitely not on single targets like bosses with no other targets, as it'll just give you the power boost of a warlocks curse. (both don't stack)
The rest of the the time as a HB fury I slot Gates of Hell for trash mobs and Brood of Hadar for single target, though if you're looking into playing Damnation you may want to sub Gates of Hell for Accursed souls as it puts lesser curse on all enemies which will increase the damage your soul puppet deals if you take the Burning Puppets feat.
Finally, for class features I go with Flames of Empowerment as it will but a defence debuff on your target which stacks up to 3 times, and All consuming curse, when you get an artifact weapon later you'll be able to use this feat to increase your critical strike severity via an artifact power, but also this feature helps you keep lesser curse on your targets which you want to do as often as possible as Damnation.
Sorry I know that's a lot to take in and I could've formatted it a lot better, but I hope it helps.
Thanks a lot it's very helpful. Something's wrong with posting on my side, anyway, wanted to clear few things out:
From the looks of it, Warlock's Bargain is most damaging single target skill we have, but most builds still feature Killing Flames, why is that? From pure numbers, Bargain should do better + life steal. And I'm not certain on mechanic here, it says it is curse, but it still benefits from Warlock's Curse and Pillar damage buff, right? Killing Flames do max damage at 25% hp, which isn't too effective when fighting boss enemies + with Damnation tree Soul Puppet becomes obsolete, no?
Good idea to swap Blight for Rebuke, definitely will go for it, but wouldn't be taking class feature (can't find name atm) which alters Hellish Rebuke effect instead? Looks to me it should do more damage with it.
I've been using Gates of Hell for a time, and it felt like a big letdown to be honest. It has insanely slow casting time, when you start to the moment it hits, much happens in combat, and it usually goes to waste, plus with 3 ranks it didn't feel like to have decent AP gain from kills or damage, I get a lot more just with Spiral, and Fiery Bolt provides fantastic mob cleaner. Every other build sports Tyrannical and it gave me an impression that it's pretty useful in boss fights, but I use Brood much more often for solo PVE content, and it's great. Considering lesser curse, do Gates always crit?...
Also, curious about some feats. Most builds have Determined Casting 5/5 which reduces encounter CD, but skills recharge pretty fast even without it and wouldn't maxing Shadow Fold be more useful for example? You have more stamina to dodge attacks and keep alive IMO.
P.S. Sorry for off-topic, can't find info anywhere, it says I'm new and can't create threads. Have to wait a for a little bit to gain access, but I was registered in 2014. So, how long this "little bit" should last?... Would I be able to make topics by 2025? :D