I really would like to meet a pure dps DC , I never met one who was able to top classes like Hunter, Warlock, dps GF, GWF in all those years, mostly due to that class being forced to stay a supporter maybe? My own impression runnning my DC: great dps running trash, low dps on single target compared to strikerclasses, wich kills any interest in my case to focus on a dps spec. I don´t want to be a "Trash-Killer".
in groups with hastening light spam always top will be who has the hardest encounter no matter its cooldown. gwf vs cw with hastening light spam? ofcourse gwf vs a boss fight landing in raw 3 ibs. gwf vs cw without hastening light spam competitive. that is an example.
EVEN with that you earn 10 seconds maximum so for me are no choices between the classes if someone says can do dps and he can do it matter 5 or 10 seconds?
AND about dc daunting light hit very hard if you have good aiming.
My issue with the DC is this, the class is a healer and buffer, support only class. I tried out a full DO build focused solely on damage without any real group buffs. End result, not that good.
Ran a few different pieces of group content to see how it played out and ran some solo content. Timed myself on the solo content.
I did not see any real significant increase in my damage in group content,. The solo content is where I wanted to see if the change would improve my runs.
Short answer, no. The buffing I get as a buffer/healer increases my stats enough to make the times basically the same. Sad really that the DC is a 100% support class and going full on damage does not really improve the solo content for us.
How much effort/cost did you put into it? I ran as a DPS DO for about 6 months (haste until the nerf and a pvp build before that in mods 4-5). I recently respecced to AC Righteous buffer and the drop in my clearance times for solo content has been painfully extended. I almost fall asleep in my Monday Baphomet fights whereas previously I'd be in and out in 2 minutes.
AC righteous only surpass DO in dps when you have 3x r12 bonding while spamming AA.
DO out dps's AC for a couple of reasons, one is that you have to give up some righteous tree feats to get Battle Fervor for the current power sharing meta. Brand of the Sun is a beast. And let's not forget about terrifying insight. And DO righteous has 0 use for recovery (stats that can be used elsewhere)
The other reasons DO out dps's AC is just playing style. The current meta requires you making sacrifices in your rotation that costs you.
1) Without BotS you spend more time spamming at-wills to gain divinity 2) Using divine chains to earn AP and spam AA (instead of using divine chains to only when HG isn't down 3) If your focus is dps you can use empowered daunting as a nuke instead of using BtS
DO out dps's AC for a couple of reasons, one is that you have to give up some righteous tree feats to get Battle Fervor for the current power sharing meta. Brand of the Sun is a beast. And let's not forget about terrifying insight. And DO righteous has 0 use for recovery (stats that can be used elsewhere)
The other reasons DO out dps's AC is just playing style. The current meta requires you making sacrifices in your rotation that costs you.
1) Without BotS you spend more time spamming at-wills to gain divinity 2) Using divine chains to earn AP and spam AA (instead of using divine chains to only when HG isn't down 3) If your focus is dps you can use empowered daunting as a nuke instead of using BtS
Tested on preview myself and AA+bonding made my attacks consistently hit 35%-40% harder than terrifying insight + HG, and even if I consider the extra dmg from BotS, AC still outperforms DO.
But ofc if AA uptime isn't great or if you don't have bonding then DO does outdps AC.
DO out dps's AC for a couple of reasons, one is that you have to give up some righteous tree feats to get Battle Fervor for the current power sharing meta. Brand of the Sun is a beast. And let's not forget about terrifying insight. And DO righteous has 0 use for recovery (stats that can be used elsewhere)
The other reasons DO out dps's AC is just playing style. The current meta requires you making sacrifices in your rotation that costs you.
1) Without BotS you spend more time spamming at-wills to gain divinity 2) Using divine chains to earn AP and spam AA (instead of using divine chains to only when HG isn't down 3) If your focus is dps you can use empowered daunting as a nuke instead of using BtS
Tested on preview myself and AA+bonding made my attacks consistently hit 35%-40% harder than terrifying insight + HG, and even if I consider the extra dmg from BotS, AC still outperforms DO.
But ofc if AA uptime isn't great or if you don't have bonding then DO does outdps AC.
Devoted Cleric are simply not striker class in this game. They cannot compete with the strikers, Guardian Fighters or a Control Wizard. Those classes simply out shine a Devoted Cleric for damage.
When comparing the two paragon paths though I will state this, a DO is a step ahead of a AC. The DO would benefit from the buffs an AC can provide further enhancing a DO damage numbers, but a AC cannot or should not be able to enhance another AC. This makes a DO a better over all damager.
Artifact Enchantments: Terrifying Insight - buffs critical severity Brand of Sun 9% increase in damage
Powers: Terrifying Insight Brand of the Sun Prophecy of Doom
However, when soloing content I found the AC to be a better choice.
Anointed Armor - if you find you cannot take the hits equip this and you will now have higher defense and deflection. Anointed Action - Damage buff after using a daily Anointed Army - Shield and buff Battle Fervor Feat- Instance 15% buff in your damage Ancient Warding Feat - Buff for cleric
What I find interesting is that of the two paragon path the only feat that is self focus on increasing damage for the DC is Ancient Warding, this feat requires the DC to use a daily to provide the damage buff. Other classes don't typically have a feat like this. Instead it is a straight up feat to help the class get a decent damage buff or debuff to boost damage without the need to be using a daily.
The other issue for DCs is lower weapon damage. My DC is near the legendary weapon level but his damage numbers are lower than my GF who weapon is currently only rare.
They seriously need to revamp DC to make them more balance as a class. Hopefully DC is one of the next classes to get class balancing completed.
Devoted Cleric are simply not striker class in this game. They cannot compete with the strikers, Guardian Fighters or a Control Wizard. Those classes simply out shine a Devoted Cleric for damage.
When comparing the two paragon paths though I will state this, a DO is a step ahead of a AC. The DO would benefit from the buffs an AC can provide further enhancing a DO damage numbers, but a AC cannot or should not be able to enhance another AC. This makes a DO a better over all damager.
As you said a DO DC can only outdps AC when he/she is being carried by an AC DC, but how often do you run with 2 DCs anyway? And who would invite a DPS specced DO DC?
Btw, both Ancient Warding and Annointed Action are both bugged and don't work.
DO out dps's AC for a couple of reasons, one is that you have to give up some righteous tree feats to get Battle Fervor for the current power sharing meta. Brand of the Sun is a beast. And let's not forget about terrifying insight. And DO righteous has 0 use for recovery (stats that can be used elsewhere)
The other reasons DO out dps's AC is just playing style. The current meta requires you making sacrifices in your rotation that costs you.
1) Without BotS you spend more time spamming at-wills to gain divinity 2) Using divine chains to earn AP and spam AA (instead of using divine chains to only when HG isn't down 3) If your focus is dps you can use empowered daunting as a nuke instead of using BtS
Tested on preview myself and AA+bonding made my attacks consistently hit 35%-40% harder than terrifying insight + HG, and even if I consider the extra dmg from BotS, AC still outperforms DO.
But ofc if AA uptime isn't great or if you don't have bonding then DO does outdps AC.
But you still need to dedicate yourself to the AA uptime, using a combination of Legendary Snail (instead of a dps bonused mount), AP gain weapons versus dps weapons, recovery stat, and/or divine chains. So did you reconfigure your cleric for your test or did you use an AC built cleric, respec to DO and complete the test? I will grant that you will see a higher Daunting Light with AA because your rotation is built around maximizing power before using empowered DL, but over all I believe DO will have higher dps numbers than AC do the previously defined differences in mechanics and role.
Devoted Cleric are simply not striker class in this game. They cannot compete with the strikers, Guardian Fighters or a Control Wizard. Those classes simply out shine a Devoted Cleric for damage.
This is true and one HUGE difference between DC and GF/CW is that Right DCs do not forfeight buffs/debuffs to do their damage, instead the do both. So while a dps GF/CW makes a conscious decision to screw their team for the benefit of their own DPS, a Right DC is still buffing and debuffing which helps the other classes get more dps while dpsing themselves. So no matter how greedy a DC is, he cannot help but buff his party. Whereas GF and CW have paragons that are dedicated to self.
There are some exceptions where a DC can elect not to use BtS just as a CW can elect not to use Ray of Enfeeblement. But a Right DC can only achieve its peak dps through the use of debuff stacking and timing. You even get some effects that are far more effective on self than party like GF Mark but you do not see similar mechanics on DC.
with companion against training dummy, AC might beat other classes . from my experience AC can buff all party damage by 3X. (with companions and bonding) i dont see DO doing that.
the diff between DO and AC is not big. and in my opnion DO is only better in speed and divintiy gain of BoS. that might be alot in PVP but not so much in PVE
and this specifc damage rightous build is for top top top players and even than i am not sure they beat SW at that level. claric got nothing in heroic feats, and is not build to do DPS (check the other classes to see how bad DPS claric designed)
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="putzboy78"> "But you still need to dedicate yourself to the AA uptime, using a combination of Legendary Snail (instead of a dps bonused mount), AP gain weapons versus dps weapons, recovery stat, and/or divine chains. So did you reconfigure your cleric for your test or did you use an AC built cleric, respec to DO and complete the test? I will grant that you will see a higher Daunting Light with AA because your rotation is built around maximizing power before using empowered DL, but over all I believe DO will have higher dps numbers than AC do the previously defined differences in mechanics and role." </blockquote>
I tested both with exact same gears, boons and feats otherwise it'd make no sense. And I did not stack power, in fact I used azures to get 100% crit chance to make dmg comparison easier.
If my power is 30000, then bonding + AA would give me more than 100% more dmg. That number alone is already a lot better than HG + terrifying insight and I still haven't considered owl bear cub and the fact that you can still gain AP when AA is up. Not that DO is weak, it's just that AA + bonding is way too powerful.
As for AA uptime I'd have to test it with low AP gain build later.
lerapiso818Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 92Arc User
AC aoe dps is far better than DO at very high IL, I think single target dps is better too but not that much, it really depend of your power, with 40k+ AC will be stronger, between 30 and 35k, it must be close. But another important part is this party comp, if there is another AC DC to buff you, then DO is obviously superior, plus an OP power buff will minimize the AA buff impact
Let's compare all classes and see what each class has to offer for a paragon feat path
Control Wizard: Crowd Control, Damage, and Buffer Devoted Cleric: Healer, Healer, and Damage/Buffer Great Weapon Fighter: Damage, Damage, Tank Guardian Fighter: Damage, Tank, Buffer Hunter Ranger: Range Damage, Melee Damage, Crowd Control Damage Oathbound Paladin: Damage/Buffer, Tank, Heal Scourge Warlock: Damage, Pet, Healer Trickster Rogue: Damage, Disabler/Utility, Damage
As we can see all classes have a paragon path designed for damage; however, not all are create equal by any means.
I will first talk about the three classes I play and compare them.
My GF is focused on self damage from feats but by using encounters I am able to provide some group buffs and self buffs. If I am the tank, I remove all of my damage focus personals and as a result I have feats that no longer are valid and this lower my over all damage as a GF. My build allows me to do reasonable damage for solo content and be able to tank content without much fuss, even if I kept my damage related personals active I would still be able to tank and produce very good damage. If I got my companions to be more DPS focus and modify some of my enchantments I would be able to produce more damage from my GF. Heroic feats for GF do tend to be a bit more focused on defensive feat, but there are three feats that focus on damage.
My CW is a MoF damage build. Every thing took for this character is focused on self damage. Even if I modified my character to be a group buffer my damage out potential would still be higher than my DC or GF simply due to heroic feats having focus on damage.
DC, heroic feats are simply focused on gaining divinity faster, increase healing, and critical strikes doing more healing. More divinity = more healing or debuffing/buffing. Two paragon paths are mostly focused on healing and the one that is worth taking for feats, the good ones provide group buffs. The DC is simply about healing and buffing. There are some feats to select/use for self damage but there are much less in the DC feat trees than with GF or CW.
I hope the DC revamp gets it completely overhauled for paragon feats.
Solo Target Damage/Group Buffs Healer / Buffer Multi Target Damage / Self Buffs
Along with an update to one or two heroic feats to increase damage or effectiveness of damage from stat. For instance, the feat that increases our Wisdom healing should also increase our damage.
DC has the worst heroic feat among all classes and this issue is well known since beta. The paragon feats revamp was being discussed for a long time and most of us agree to make them into 3 as below: Virtuous: buff/mitigation/utility Faithful: healing/survival/protection Righteous: damage/dot/debuff
Yet nothing will happen to DC prior mod 12 and i doubt even post mod 12 we will still get nothing. Already give up on waiting and just play anything i like now. GG devs.
DC has the worst heroic feat among all classes and this issue is well known since beta. The paragon feats revamp was being discussed for a long time and most of us agree to make them into 3 as below: Virtuous: buff/mitigation/utility Faithful: healing/survival/protection Righteous: damage/dot/debuff
Yet nothing will happen to DC prior mod 12 and i doubt even post mod 12 we will still get nothing. Already give up on waiting and just play anything i like now. GG devs.
I really hope next Class updated includes CW, GWF and DC. All three need to be reviewed and fixed.
I love Clerics in D&D and hope they allow Cleric to be more than what we are. Same with Wizards.
IMO, Wizards are the true glass cannon in D&D, because they are the true glass cannon, they should be able to produce the highest damage in the game.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
AA doesnt mitigate 4 hits when there's Everfrost, only 2, because EF counts as separate dmg kind of thing so when you get hit 2 times by a giant axe lets say, well AA wears off because of the 2 EF dmg added to those. Correct me if im wrong.
I think AA is a situational daily, and some groups need this to achieve some content. Some dont. Gratz to them? It's not a cheat code afaik? AA doesnt prevent people that dont know how to play/dodge from dieing in FBI.If you think a 2 hits immunity in there makes it "trivial and easy", then I think you're wrong. Trolls hit too fast for AA. Giants with bears will wear AA off very fast too. And Permafrost AoE in msva, same.
Just enjoy the new mod coming, AA doesnt protect from petrifying, AA cant give immunity in SP because of too many hits taken at the same time. Everybody will be welcome there to use their whatever do/ac dc, with nerfed AA or not, as long as they do their DC jobs in the party they chose to go. And all those players you're all talking about with their lack of dodge and movement wont finish SP, because the second boss will give them no chance , everybody will be happy and most of the almost fire-hate threads in this post will vanish, at least from my mind.
I dont know about a nerf of AA but im actually very glad they put mechanisms that makes AA immunity useless.
ps: i kind of agree with @kallephi#0836, you're not gonna use a Swiss Knife when you can get a Bazooka unless you're into MacGyver type of thing
AA will get nerfed, just like bubble and into the fray; like those powers, it is so much better than the alternatives that you are silly if you don't use it.
I'd say to look out for a power share nerf as well; power share has gotten so out of hand that I regularly see T3 runs with multiple DCs, no tanks, and the rest dps and the group will just brute force their way through it (I was in a 7 min run on MSVA with no one higher than 3.8k IL, 4 DCs, 6 dps). Its so useful that, same as AA, not using it makes you a scrub.
Cryptic has said before that they look to break class builds that trivialize all other load outs, so don't be shocked when it happens to DC.
The one shot took any kinda strategy out a while ago. Mobs in fbi can one shot tanks with one hit lol. Kinda making these things neccessary. The true fix would be to remove life steal from the game, then remove one shots. You'd have to work on healadins way over powered heals as well. It's not going to happen so we will continue with one shot but I suspect aa will be nerfed.
disagree with taking lifesteal away. agree with taking one shots away...
Hello. I'm replying here because I can't post a new thread, I started playing just a little bit ago.
I wanna share my view on playing a cleric and ask for advice. I started palying with friends because in most games I enjoyed playing a light mage healer type. I really like clerics animations etc. We played through 1-40 levels together. I tried healing cleric and dps cleric.
Sadly I feel very useless. Paladin is outhealing me through all leveling even though he's building to be a tank and he's not even trying to heal. All dungeon Im focusing on healing and spamming all heals I have and still Im 2nd. My Healing Word heals around 1/6 of my friends hp, while paladins shield is healing like 1/3. My dmg is also the lowest of the team - while Paladin is 1 - 2 place. Seeing the end of dungeon chart is just sad. Paladin can outheal me, can tank and deal a lot more dps at the same moment.
I know I can buff my team a lot, and Im trying to do it. But the damage upgrade Im giving to them is seen as theirs dmg, not mine probably, which is sad because people start telling jokes about how cleric is useless and its better to take dps. They don't see how much Im buffing their dmg at boss fights. Maybe to help players play clerics, If Im giving a party 30% more dmg, for that duration it should count towards mine or something? It feels depressing to be not needed at all. Probably even Temptation Warlock would deal more dmg than me and almost the same if not better...
Not only Im outdamaged by everyone, outran by GWF and SW by a lot (while "sprinting/dodging" they're faster than my horse :P) I am also outhealed by paladin. So If Im not the good dmg dealer, not the good healer, am I just a buff bot with some heals? I alwats loved playing as a cleric in all dnd games. In ddo cleric was a blast. In Neverwinter I feel like I'm playing a weak version of bard. Am I doing something wrong?
Hello. I'm replying here because I can't post a new thread, I started playing just a little bit ago.
I wanna share my view on playing a cleric and ask for advice.
I started palying with friends because in most games I enjoyed playing a light mage healer type. I really like clerics animations etc. We played through 1-40 levels together. I tried healing cleric and dps cleric.
Sadly I feel very useless. Paladin is outhealing me through all leveling even though he's building to be a tank and he's not even trying to heal. All dungeon Im focusing on healing and spamming all heals I have and still Im 2nd. My Healing Word heals around 1/6 of my friends hp, while paladins shield is healing like 1/3.
My dmg is also the lowest of the team - while Paladin is 1 - 2 place.
Seeing the end of dungeon chart is just sad. Paladin can outheal me, can tank and deal a lot more dps at the same moment.
I know I can buff my team a lot, and Im trying to do it. But the damage upgrade Im giving to them is seen as theirs dmg, not mine probably, which is sad because people start telling jokes about how cleric is useless and its better to take dps. They don't see how much Im buffing their dmg at boss fights.
Maybe to help players play clerics, If Im giving a party 30% more dmg, for that duration it should count towards mine or something?
It feels depressing to be not needed at all.
Probably even Temptation Warlock would deal more dmg than me and almost the same if not better...
Not only Im outdamaged by everyone, outran by GWF and SW by a lot (while "sprinting/dodging" they're faster than my horse :P) I am also outhealed by paladin.
So If Im not the good dmg dealer, not the good healer, am I just a buff bot with some heals?
I alwats loved playing as a cleric in all dnd games. In ddo cleric was a blast. In Neverwinter I feel like I'm playing a weak version of bard.
Am I doing something wrong?
No, there is no "wrong" way to play the DC, and a healing type DC (Faithful/Virutuous) can certainly work even up to endgame. However, you are correct in thinking that the DC is best used for its buffs, rather than heals.
The Paladin might outheal you, but the Paladin is only good at outhealing people. The DC can provide decent heals, but is also the best force multiplier in the game and can increase the team's DPS by much much more than 30%.
All the fastest runs have included a (or some) DC(s). All the endgame content has people looking for DCs. Even in the random zerg/elitist channels I lurk in, I'm noticing people looking for DCs for content which is easy enough anyways (I saw someone looking for a 3k DC for MC...).
If people think DCs are useless, they probably don't understand where their damage comes from...
I know the game doesn't officially track your buffing contributions, but here's a quote from @oria1 about how buffing/debuffing contributions actually work:
"If a GWF deals a base IBS of 1 mil, and a buffer/debuffer buffs the GWF's IBS so it does 4 mil damage, who does the damage really belong to?"
(I probably fudged up a few words, but I remember Voodoo saying this much in game).
Dont you think then it would be a good idea to move the "buffed" dmg to a cleric on the ending screen? It would probably quiet the jerks and make others want to play cleric more. There is lack of clerics and tons of dpses on end game (at least thats what I heard), maybe if clerics got to see the big numbers on screen too(becauce everyone likes it) or there was a seperate stat like "buffed dps" , more people would enjoy this class. Because when a jerk says "youre uselesss, no dmg, weak heals etc" I cannot even argue, because when its not in black and white , he won't stop talking like that.
I totally wouldn't mind a "% of damage from external buffing sources" screen, but I don't know how accurate it would be, considering how some of the other official charts can be ... off... sometimes. And also, who's to say that the epeen chasers won't dismiss the chart as bugged, or simply swap to the Paingiver screen and ignore the pie chart?
If someone wants to keep insisting that DPS is all that's needed ,that DCs are useless, let them think that. I'd like to see them try MSvard, eSP, or FBI with all DPSers, no DC or tank.
I say this from the perspective of a former GWF main who started in Mod5's end/ Mod6. I used to be another one of "those GWFs" also think that tanks and buffers were useless, and that DPSers were all that was needed. I was a bit stubborn back then in hindsight, but fortunately, Sharpedge destroyed my DPS in a random Shores run, and showed me how amazing buffers can be.
And I don't know if you could get people to play DCs more with that screen. I think the healer problem is universal to mmos, as who wants to play the role of supporter? Everyone wants to play the role of the hero, the one who does the most damage.
Yes, there is a general lack of DCs (and, also tanks) for endgame content. This can be used to your advantage, although you'll find a lot of hypocrisy in regards to admitting tanks/healers/buffers.
Well the problem is - little people like to play tanks and healers. But there are people who love that - like me. I always loved playing healers. Neverwinter is the first game when Im feeling sad about my class. Maybe its because there IS this ending screen - in many games there is no sum up like that after dungeon/skirmish so peole don't even know how much dmg who is dealing. And I believe less people would trash clerics if they didnt see them 5th ind dps and not even 1st in healing every time they play. I personally feel like I may wanna switch because of it - soe maybe many players feel that way, not only me.
But I'll give it a try for longer. I dont wanna abandon my favourite class because in my case it would mean abandoning the game too. I always played cleric or favored soul in dnd games and I dont feel like I wanna play something else, Im partially a rpg player, I want to feel like my class is me.
I personally would love if % of damage done by others would count towards mine if I gave them this % buff.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
If your playing with people who do not appreciate dc buffs, then f them. Get yourself in a skilled guild/alliance where dcs are appreciated.
If heals really are that important to you then switch to paly
Personally i don't need to be validated by a chart. DC is a niche community in the game. Most of them don't even have huge ego's that need feed by the end charts. Measure your success in speedy completions not by the stupid chart
DPS have clear and obvious feedback on the paingiver chart. It's not perfect, but it provides a rough ranking on performance: This other player did 10% more damage than you over the course of a dungeon, maybe you need to work a bit harder.
Tanks also have clear feedback: If you sure, the group dies. The cause is not always obvious, but it's a start at least.
But what's the difference between a good buffer DC and a bad buffer DC? There is no chart to measure their effectiveness; and the paingiver chart is worse than misleading. Worse buffs mean higher paingiver numbers, because the fights take longers, and the enemies summon more adds or heal more over the course of a fight.
What's needed is a way to measure up against other people playing the same role, so you can say "Yeah, I'm in the top 20%! Sure, that person's beating my score, but they've got way better gear; I'll catch up and show them!"
I'm not saying it would be easy to make such a measure; there would definitely still be the same problem of over-valuing sub-par contributions when the fights take longer as a result. But a measure of 'dps added' by buffs and debuffs for each player, separate from a measure of DPS, would give positive feedback to such clerics about the merits of their efforts.
If you are level 40 or so, then you haven't done any group content. There really isn't anything before level 70, though the skirmishes for the last three leveling zones come close. The old heroic dungeons got taken out and then new 3 person ones are just filler. Wait until you get to real group content and you may feel differently about how useful or desired the DC is.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Yeah...The problem is also not only that someone "wants to see their dmg to feel better" -> its mainly to stop other players from being jerks. Bot also I can't see a difference if Im doing different rotations and using different skills. I cant see difference between doing buffing better and worse.
Yeah...The problem is also not only that someone "wants to see their dmg to feel better" -> its mainly to stop other players from being jerks. Bot also I can't see a difference if Im doing different rotations and using different skills. I cant see difference between doing buffing better and worse.
Not sure there's any metric that could be shown that would stop jerks from being jerks.
As someone who plays mostly support-focused builds, I totally feel your pain. When my CW buffer is doing a great job, they are exactly in the middle of every dungeon "metric board." There's no clear way of identifying that me being there is significantly contributing to everyone's damage, and helping our clear speed. But I don't really know that there's a system out there that would do the trick without introducing staggering complexity (likely with its own exploitable idiosyncrasies)
i dont think the average paladin can heal more then DC. and even if paladin chose a heal build, DC can heal more if he chose faithfull.
healing word is hardly used at higher levels. i only use it at edemo first phase if the GF is too squishy (its sad to see them die outside PVP)
Respectfully disagree. A well-build devo pally can outheal a well-built heal DC, but mostly because pally's heals will reach the targets first. DC heals are either passive HoTs which have a delayed tick (virt) or they are immediate but must be targetted (faith). A pally radiates heals and is usually in the thick of where people are getting hit.
But as folks are fast to point out: heals are not as important in this game due to the sheer amount of self-healing. DCs and OPs both can definitely heal "way more than necessary" to get the job done, both while also providing the team with solid utility.
FWIW I main an AC virt heal/buff DC.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
DPS have clear and obvious feedback on the paingiver chart. It's not perfect, but it provides a rough ranking on performance: This other player did 10% more damage than you over the course of a dungeon, maybe you need to work a bit harder.
Tanks also have clear feedback: If you sure, the group dies. The cause is not always obvious, but it's a start at least.
But what's the difference between a good buffer DC and a bad buffer DC? There is no chart to measure their effectiveness; and the paingiver chart is worse than misleading. Worse buffs mean higher paingiver numbers, because the fights take longers, and the enemies summon more adds or heal more over the course of a fight.
What's needed is a way to measure up against other people playing the same role, so you can say "Yeah, I'm in the top 20%! Sure, that person's beating my score, but they've got way better gear; I'll catch up and show them!"
I'm not saying it would be easy to make such a measure; there would definitely still be the same problem of over-valuing sub-par contributions when the fights take longer as a result. But a measure of 'dps added' by buffs and debuffs for each player, separate from a measure of DPS, would give positive feedback to such clerics about the merits of their efforts.
if there is only one dc in a party then there is nothing to compare/rank against. If you have multiple dcs in a party it would show who'd ability was put down last not first, so still doesn't reflect your performance. There is no way to reflect buff/debuff contribution on a meaningful party chart.
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gwf vs cw with hastening light spam? ofcourse gwf vs a boss fight landing in raw 3 ibs.
gwf vs cw without hastening light spam competitive.
that is an example.
EVEN with that you earn 10 seconds maximum so for me are no choices between the classes if someone says can do dps and he can do it matter 5 or 10 seconds?
AND about dc daunting light hit very hard if you have good aiming.
The other reasons DO out dps's AC is just playing style. The current meta requires you making sacrifices in your rotation that costs you.
1) Without BotS you spend more time spamming at-wills to gain divinity
2) Using divine chains to earn AP and spam AA (instead of using divine chains to only when HG isn't down
3) If your focus is dps you can use empowered daunting as a nuke instead of using BtS
But ofc if AA uptime isn't great or if you don't have bonding then DO does outdps AC.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
When comparing the two paragon paths though I will state this, a DO is a step ahead of a AC. The DO would benefit from the buffs an AC can provide further enhancing a DO damage numbers, but a AC cannot or should not be able to enhance another AC. This makes a DO a better over all damager.
Artifact Enchantments:
Terrifying Insight - buffs critical severity
Brand of Sun 9% increase in damage
Powers:
Terrifying Insight
Brand of the Sun
Prophecy of Doom
However, when soloing content I found the AC to be a better choice.
Anointed Armor - if you find you cannot take the hits equip this and you will now have higher defense and deflection.
Anointed Action - Damage buff after using a daily
Anointed Army - Shield and buff
Battle Fervor Feat- Instance 15% buff in your damage
Ancient Warding Feat - Buff for cleric
What I find interesting is that of the two paragon path the only feat that is self focus on increasing damage for the DC is Ancient Warding, this feat requires the DC to use a daily to provide the damage buff. Other classes don't typically have a feat like this. Instead it is a straight up feat to help the class get a decent damage buff or debuff to boost damage without the need to be using a daily.
The other issue for DCs is lower weapon damage. My DC is near the legendary weapon level but his damage numbers are lower than my GF who weapon is currently only rare.
They seriously need to revamp DC to make them more balance as a class. Hopefully DC is one of the next classes to get class balancing completed.
Btw, both Ancient Warding and Annointed Action are both bugged and don't work.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
This is true and one HUGE difference between DC and GF/CW is that Right DCs do not forfeight buffs/debuffs to do their damage, instead the do both. So while a dps GF/CW makes a conscious decision to screw their team for the benefit of their own DPS, a Right DC is still buffing and debuffing which helps the other classes get more dps while dpsing themselves. So no matter how greedy a DC is, he cannot help but buff his party. Whereas GF and CW have paragons that are dedicated to self.
There are some exceptions where a DC can elect not to use BtS just as a CW can elect not to use Ray of Enfeeblement. But a Right DC can only achieve its peak dps through the use of debuff stacking and timing. You even get some effects that are far more effective on self than party like GF Mark but you do not see similar mechanics on DC.
from my experience AC can buff all party damage by 3X. (with companions and bonding)
i dont see DO doing that.
the diff between DO and AC is not big. and in my opnion DO is only better in speed and divintiy gain of BoS.
that might be alot in PVP but not so much in PVE
and this specifc damage rightous build is for top top top players and even than i am not sure they beat SW at that level.
claric got nothing in heroic feats, and is not build to do DPS
(check the other classes to see how bad DPS claric designed)
"But you still need to dedicate yourself to the AA uptime, using a combination of Legendary Snail (instead of a dps bonused mount), AP gain weapons versus dps weapons, recovery stat, and/or divine chains. So did you reconfigure your cleric for your test or did you use an AC built cleric, respec to DO and complete the test? I will grant that you will see a higher Daunting Light with AA because your rotation is built around maximizing power before using empowered DL, but over all I believe DO will have higher dps numbers than AC do the previously defined differences in mechanics and role."
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I tested both with exact same gears, boons and feats otherwise it'd make no sense. And I did not stack power, in fact I used azures to get 100% crit chance to make dmg comparison easier.
If my power is 30000, then bonding + AA would give me more than 100% more dmg. That number alone is already a lot better than HG + terrifying insight and I still haven't considered owl bear cub and the fact that you can still gain AP when AA is up. Not that DO is weak, it's just that AA + bonding is way too powerful.
As for AA uptime I'd have to test it with low AP gain build later.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
But another important part is this party comp, if there is another AC DC to buff you, then DO is obviously superior, plus an OP power buff will minimize the AA buff impact
Control Wizard: Crowd Control, Damage, and Buffer
Devoted Cleric: Healer, Healer, and Damage/Buffer
Great Weapon Fighter: Damage, Damage, Tank
Guardian Fighter: Damage, Tank, Buffer
Hunter Ranger: Range Damage, Melee Damage, Crowd Control Damage
Oathbound Paladin: Damage/Buffer, Tank, Heal
Scourge Warlock: Damage, Pet, Healer
Trickster Rogue: Damage, Disabler/Utility, Damage
As we can see all classes have a paragon path designed for damage; however, not all are create equal by any means.
I will first talk about the three classes I play and compare them.
My GF is focused on self damage from feats but by using encounters I am able to provide some group buffs and self buffs. If I am the tank, I remove all of my damage focus personals and as a result I have feats that no longer are valid and this lower my over all damage as a GF. My build allows me to do reasonable damage for solo content and be able to tank content without much fuss, even if I kept my damage related personals active I would still be able to tank and produce very good damage. If I got my companions to be more DPS focus and modify some of my enchantments I would be able to produce more damage from my GF. Heroic feats for GF do tend to be a bit more focused on defensive feat, but there are three feats that focus on damage.
My CW is a MoF damage build. Every thing took for this character is focused on self damage. Even if I modified my character to be a group buffer my damage out potential would still be higher than my DC or GF simply due to heroic feats having focus on damage.
DC, heroic feats are simply focused on gaining divinity faster, increase healing, and critical strikes doing more healing. More divinity = more healing or debuffing/buffing. Two paragon paths are mostly focused on healing and the one that is worth taking for feats, the good ones provide group buffs. The DC is simply about healing and buffing. There are some feats to select/use for self damage but there are much less in the DC feat trees than with GF or CW.
I hope the DC revamp gets it completely overhauled for paragon feats.
Solo Target Damage/Group Buffs
Healer / Buffer
Multi Target Damage / Self Buffs
Along with an update to one or two heroic feats to increase damage or effectiveness of damage from stat. For instance, the feat that increases our Wisdom healing should also increase our damage.
Virtuous: buff/mitigation/utility
Faithful: healing/survival/protection
Righteous: damage/dot/debuff
Yet nothing will happen to DC prior mod 12 and i doubt even post mod 12 we will still get nothing. Already give up on waiting and just play anything i like now. GG devs.
I love Clerics in D&D and hope they allow Cleric to be more than what we are. Same with Wizards.
IMO, Wizards are the true glass cannon in D&D, because they are the true glass cannon, they should be able to produce the highest damage in the game.
I've read the same thing a lot through this post:
AA doesnt mitigate 4 hits when there's Everfrost, only 2, because EF counts as separate dmg kind of thing so when you get hit 2 times by a giant axe lets say, well AA wears off
I think AA is a situational daily, and some groups need this to achieve some content. Some dont. Gratz to them? It's not a cheat code afaik? AA doesnt prevent people that dont know how to play/dodge from dieing in FBI.If you think a 2 hits immunity in there makes it "trivial and easy", then I think you're wrong. Trolls hit too fast for AA. Giants with bears will wear AA off very fast too. And Permafrost AoE in msva, same.
Just enjoy the new mod coming, AA doesnt protect from petrifying, AA cant give immunity in SP because of too many hits taken at the same time. Everybody will be welcome there to use their whatever do/ac dc, with nerfed AA or not, as long as they do their DC jobs in the party they chose to go. And all those players you're all talking about with their lack of dodge and movement wont finish SP, because the second boss will give them no chance
I dont know about a nerf of AA but im actually very glad they put mechanisms that makes AA immunity useless.
ps: i kind of agree with @kallephi#0836, you're not gonna use a Swiss Knife when you can get a Bazooka
I'd say to look out for a power share nerf as well; power share has gotten so out of hand that I regularly see T3 runs with multiple DCs, no tanks, and the rest dps and the group will just brute force their way through it (I was in a 7 min run on MSVA with no one higher than 3.8k IL, 4 DCs, 6 dps). Its so useful that, same as AA, not using it makes you a scrub.
Cryptic has said before that they look to break class builds that trivialize all other load outs, so don't be shocked when it happens to DC.
Main: Nidara Devilspawn- Ranger
Alt: Aradin Coldblood- Fighter
Alt: Lucrezia Vileborn- Warlock
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1228397/upcoming-devoted-cleric-changes
Hælja, Swordmaster Conqueror Guardian Fighter of Thieves World
disagree with taking lifesteal away. agree with taking one shots away...
I wanna share my view on playing a cleric and ask for advice.
I started palying with friends because in most games I enjoyed playing a light mage healer type. I really like clerics animations etc. We played through 1-40 levels together. I tried healing cleric and dps cleric.
Sadly I feel very useless. Paladin is outhealing me through all leveling even though he's building to be a tank and he's not even trying to heal. All dungeon Im focusing on healing and spamming all heals I have and still Im 2nd. My Healing Word heals around 1/6 of my friends hp, while paladins shield is healing like 1/3.
My dmg is also the lowest of the team - while Paladin is 1 - 2 place.
Seeing the end of dungeon chart is just sad. Paladin can outheal me, can tank and deal a lot more dps at the same moment.
I know I can buff my team a lot, and Im trying to do it. But the damage upgrade Im giving to them is seen as theirs dmg, not mine probably, which is sad because people start telling jokes about how cleric is useless and its better to take dps. They don't see how much Im buffing their dmg at boss fights.
Maybe to help players play clerics, If Im giving a party 30% more dmg, for that duration it should count towards mine or something?
It feels depressing to be not needed at all.
Probably even Temptation Warlock would deal more dmg than me and almost the same if not better...
Not only Im outdamaged by everyone, outran by GWF and SW by a lot (while "sprinting/dodging" they're faster than my horse :P) I am also outhealed by paladin.
So If Im not the good dmg dealer, not the good healer, am I just a buff bot with some heals?
I alwats loved playing as a cleric in all dnd games. In ddo cleric was a blast. In Neverwinter I feel like I'm playing a weak version of bard.
Am I doing something wrong?
However, you are correct in thinking that the DC is best used for its buffs, rather than heals.
The Paladin might outheal you, but the Paladin is only good at outhealing people. The DC can provide decent heals, but is also the best force multiplier in the game and can increase the team's DPS by much much more than 30%.
All the fastest runs have included a (or some) DC(s). All the endgame content has people looking for DCs. Even in the random zerg/elitist channels I lurk in, I'm noticing people looking for DCs for content which is easy enough anyways (I saw someone looking for a 3k DC for MC...).
If people think DCs are useless, they probably don't understand where their damage comes from...
I know the game doesn't officially track your buffing contributions, but here's a quote from @oria1 about how buffing/debuffing contributions actually work:
"If a GWF deals a base IBS of 1 mil, and a buffer/debuffer buffs the GWF's IBS so it does 4 mil damage, who does the damage really belong to?"
(I probably fudged up a few words, but I remember Voodoo saying this much in game).
There is lack of clerics and tons of dpses on end game (at least thats what I heard), maybe if clerics got to see the big numbers on screen too(becauce everyone likes it) or there was a seperate stat like "buffed dps" , more people would enjoy this class.
Because when a jerk says "youre uselesss, no dmg, weak heals etc" I cannot even argue, because when its not in black and white , he won't stop talking like that.
If someone wants to keep insisting that DPS is all that's needed ,that DCs are useless, let them think that. I'd like to see them try MSvard, eSP, or FBI with all DPSers, no DC or tank.
I say this from the perspective of a former GWF main who started in Mod5's end/ Mod6. I used to be another one of "those GWFs" also think that tanks and buffers were useless, and that DPSers were all that was needed. I was a bit stubborn back then in hindsight, but fortunately, Sharpedge destroyed my DPS in a random Shores run, and showed me how amazing buffers can be.
And I don't know if you could get people to play DCs more with that screen. I think the healer problem is universal to mmos, as who wants to play the role of supporter? Everyone wants to play the role of the hero, the one who does the most damage.
Yes, there is a general lack of DCs (and, also tanks) for endgame content. This can be used to your advantage, although you'll find a lot of hypocrisy in regards to admitting tanks/healers/buffers.
Neverwinter is the first game when Im feeling sad about my class. Maybe its because there IS this ending screen - in many games there is no sum up like that after dungeon/skirmish so peole don't even know how much dmg who is dealing. And I believe less people would trash clerics if they didnt see them 5th ind dps and not even 1st in healing every time they play.
I personally feel like I may wanna switch because of it - soe maybe many players feel that way, not only me.
But I'll give it a try for longer. I dont wanna abandon my favourite class because in my case it would mean abandoning the game too. I always played cleric or favored soul in dnd games and I dont feel like I wanna play something else, Im partially a rpg player, I want to feel like my class is me.
I personally would love if % of damage done by others would count towards mine if I gave them this % buff.
If heals really are that important to you then switch to paly
Personally i don't need to be validated by a chart. DC is a niche community in the game. Most of them don't even have huge ego's that need feed by the end charts. Measure your success in speedy completions not by the stupid chart
DPS have clear and obvious feedback on the paingiver chart. It's not perfect, but it provides a rough ranking on performance: This other player did 10% more damage than you over the course of a dungeon, maybe you need to work a bit harder.
Tanks also have clear feedback: If you sure, the group dies. The cause is not always obvious, but it's a start at least.
But what's the difference between a good buffer DC and a bad buffer DC? There is no chart to measure their effectiveness; and the paingiver chart is worse than misleading. Worse buffs mean higher paingiver numbers, because the fights take longers, and the enemies summon more adds or heal more over the course of a fight.
What's needed is a way to measure up against other people playing the same role, so you can say "Yeah, I'm in the top 20%! Sure, that person's beating my score, but they've got way better gear; I'll catch up and show them!"
I'm not saying it would be easy to make such a measure; there would definitely still be the same problem of over-valuing sub-par contributions when the fights take longer as a result. But a measure of 'dps added' by buffs and debuffs for each player, separate from a measure of DPS, would give positive feedback to such clerics about the merits of their efforts.
only at L70 the game realy start.
i dont think the average paladin can heal more then DC.
and even if paladin chose a heal build, DC can heal more if he chose faithfull.
healing word is hardly used at higher levels. i only use it at edemo first phase if the GF is too squishy (its sad to see them die outside PVP)
As someone who plays mostly support-focused builds, I totally feel your pain. When my CW buffer is doing a great job, they are exactly in the middle of every dungeon "metric board." There's no clear way of identifying that me being there is significantly contributing to everyone's damage, and helping our clear speed. But I don't really know that there's a system out there that would do the trick without introducing staggering complexity (likely with its own exploitable idiosyncrasies) Agreed. Respectfully disagree. A well-build devo pally can outheal a well-built heal DC, but mostly because pally's heals will reach the targets first. DC heals are either passive HoTs which have a delayed tick (virt) or they are immediate but must be targetted (faith). A pally radiates heals and is usually in the thick of where people are getting hit.
But as folks are fast to point out: heals are not as important in this game due to the sheer amount of self-healing. DCs and OPs both can definitely heal "way more than necessary" to get the job done, both while also providing the team with solid utility.
FWIW I main an AC virt heal/buff DC.