Combat vs Trapper for PvP

rhadamathys · January 2017

@davidagaldo

So the debate shouldn't be about which is better (combat is), the debate should be about teaming up. Tagging Teucer in this as we ran quite a few dom's last night, he respec'd into a trapper mod, I was me straight up combat...he was like my personal Rod of Imperial Restraint, the amount of carnage we caused, even against other pre-mades was impressive. The combo is crazy good.

I'd much rather have 1 of each in my group than 2 combats. That being said, 2 trappers, 2 dunks, 1 DC would be a crazy good combo as well.

If you are debating which way to go in PvP, go based on your playstyle. Trapper is very helpful in the proper group settings, Combat is very helpful all around.

davidagaldo · January 2017

@rhadamathys
I increased my Power to 31K, numbers look good. Recovery is high enough to quickly run through a rotation. This morning I made the change and was doing SH T3 Hes with just my X Y. No Arti, daily or B button. Hindering and Constricting is what I had spammed.

For the bickering HE, I had to use the full rotation.

rhadamathys · January 2017

what is your total recovry?

davidagaldo · January 2017

I don't recall. I will look at it later. I need to hit someone in PvP tonight.

With the bickering heads, I was only hurting for stamina, no recovery issues.

rhadamathys · January 2017

Bickering heads, the key is to get slashers mark on one early and often. helps the stamina issue.

wdj40 · January 2017

rhadamathys said:
@davidagaldo

So the debate shouldn't be about which is better (combat is), the debate should be about teaming up. Tagging Teucer in this as we ran quite a few dom's last night, he respec'd into a trapper mod, I was me straight up combat...he was like my personal Rod of Imperial Restraint, the amount of carnage we caused, even against other pre-mades was impressive. The combo is crazy good.

I'd much rather have 1 of each in my group than 2 combats. That being said, 2 trappers, 2 dunks, 1 DC would be a crazy good combo as well.

If you are debating which way to go in PvP, go based on your playstyle. Trapper is very helpful in the proper group settings, Combat is very helpful all around.

The combo of Trapper and Combat in PvP is indeed pretty sweet, myself and Mini-Lego did that a few days ago and obliterated everything in sight for a while, also had a DC with us the whole time. Anyway just wanted to say I love that combo now lol

davidagaldo · January 2017

rhadamathys said:
Bickering heads, the key is to get slashers mark on one early and often. helps the stamina issue.

Yeah, I did use slashers. I have the vid posted and when I review it. I actually did not have an issue. I guess it was all that I recall needed improvement but the video says 'stop whining'. I will change a few more stats this evening to scrape for higher damage.

I ran with Mini-Lego once a couple weeks ago, we did not win our match. I was not at the camp fire as much as he was. Against him, a GF he ran with was taking my health. Rough day.

hanniballa · January 2017

rhadamathys said:
@davidagaldo

So the debate shouldn't be about which is better (combat is), the debate should be about teaming up. Tagging Teucer in this as we ran quite a few dom's last night, he respec'd into a trapper mod, I was me straight up combat...he was like my personal Rod of Imperial Restraint, the amount of carnage we caused, even against other pre-mades was impressive. The combo is crazy good.

I'd much rather have 1 of each in my group than 2 combats. That being said, 2 trappers, 2 dunks, 1 DC would be a crazy good combo as well.

If you are debating which way to go in PvP, go based on your playstyle. Trapper is very helpful in the proper group settings, Combat is very helpful all around.

What's a dunk?

davidagaldo · January 2017

Dunks are TRs.

rhadamathys · January 2017

@davidagaldo I'm doing some respec on paper and wanted to get your info before I commit to trying out the Trapper+ build.

If I swap to all Draconic 12s (offense) and change mount power to ArP, keeping guild boon on power, I'd have the following fully buffed stats in Dom:

26 k power
52% Crit chance
118% RI (13.5k stats ~107%)
4.4k Recovery

11% Damage Resist
44% Deflect Chance
8% Lifesteal
180k HP
61% movement bonus + howling set

Class Features: Pathfinders + either Crushing or AotF depending on group comp. (off hand art: broken, but pathfinders)
At-will: Aimed + Hunter's (main hand art: aimed)
Encounters: Binding, Hindering/longstriders, Constricting (hindering/longstriders depends on crushing vs aotf)
Dailies: Slashers + Disruptive
Boons: focus on control bonus over control resist

Thoughts? is that enough RI to get through most armor? Enough Recovery to ensure low CDs? I could swap guild boon and mount to get 4k more ArP and 4k less Power...

davidagaldo · January 2017

I am willing to concur with your finding above. I am only needing sub 6K ArP and 51% CC. The extra ArP is not needed unless you're attempting to solo a node, which I am not. With the 180 HP, it is really hard to kill me. I shift away and apply roots and dip if I must.

The piercing damage is awesome with AotF and CR is my other class. I am at 4.5K Recovery and no issues.

More later today, I have a server down and moving data to another server...

abaddon · January 2017

i wouldnt build a character around combat. imo theres no way its not getting nerfed eventually.

davidagaldo · January 2017

Eventually could be a very long time.

jonkoca · January 2017

Control bonus is terrible on HRs, at most you might get 1 extra tick on roots, and a few milliseconds on crushing. Resist, or anything tbh. is better.

davidagaldo · January 2017

Oh, yeah, missed that, what he ( @jonkoca ) says @rhadamathys

rhadamathys · January 2017

I've been playing trapper+ for 2 days now. For transparency, I'm running 15 points into archery for the longshot. And I haven't played trapper style in a while so I'm still getting up to speed with the different rotations, etc...so these observations are a little biased due to lack of skill while transitioning.

My observations so far:

Interesting/different style. For me, I prefer to be: up close and personal, tanky af, and value kills over assists.

With combat, you have a much better chance of a 1 on 1 win against a similarly geared/skilled player...with trapper, I feel like I'm pretty much playing for the draw. That's not to say a trapper can't win 1 on 1, I'll need some more experience with 1 on 1s but so far that's my opinion. Against pugs or undergeared, it doesn't really matter, although the DoT and trappiness of the trapper makes it easier to deal with runners...

ArP doesn't seem to matter...at first, I got up over 14k but had to sacrifice crit, when I backed off to 10k or even 8k ArP, I didn't notice much/any tangible difference...

The only way I see the trapper being sustainable would be to figure a way to counter crit resistance. 30k crits being mitigated to 8k vs 8k normal damage being mitigated to 6k is fairly annoying. Plus the DoTs, while nice, are easily countered by good insignia bonuses/drowned set/etc. Since it's harder to apply multiple DoTs (aimed strike + Thorned, or Gushing + thorned) and your overally damage is being fairly mitigated, it just makes things much harder.

Combat is way more tanky. Not to say you can't make a trapper just as tanky, but you have to give up more than a combat does to get that tanky. The more tanky a trapper gets, the less offense they generate. Combat gets tanky easily, so you aren't giving up much offense at all. Trappers best tankiness is to stay at range, but if you make one error, you're screwed. With a combat, you can make an error or a few, and still survive fairly easily.

I am shocked at the number of folks who don't run elven, locking folks down was easy and if you run with a heavy hitter it makes their life easier. I tried Constric, Hindering, Binding and found the 3 SGRs (2 ranged, 1 melee) and 1 WGR along with the stamina regen and insta heals of oak skin to be nice. I tried a combo replacing hindering with longstriders, but the others in my group prefered the perma lockdown that hindering gives you. Fox's is decent, but not really needed if you have good stamina regen/recovery and shift at the right times.

Typically, against decent groups, my match stats average out to be: combat ~10/0/8...trapper ~3/3/20 (kills/deaths/assists). It's hard to get excited about assists when all you have to do is hit 1 guy 1 time and if he dies later on, when you aren't around, you still get credit.

I'm going to try full trapper and 15 into combat (lucky blades) in the near future. I'm also running all draconic 12s offense and demonic 12s def, dread, elven, swapping between howling/drowned set (both seem to be awash...howling lets you escape easily and get behind people for better shots, drowned helps if you make a mistake).

If anyone is noticing something I'm doing wrong, please pipe up so I can try it out and give a better comparison. Right now I'm sitting at 26k pow, 10k CS, 9k ArP, 4.5k Recovery... I also have pretty much unlimited resources so if you have an idea but lack the gear to try it out, let me know and I'd be happy to experiment.

My gut tells me that if I wanted to be a rockstar support and give up on DPS, I'd be full trapper, max power (30k+, Shep's Devotion), evenly focus on Recover/CS/ArP (8k range on all 3), and I'd consider using something other than dread (fey, bronze, terror)

nuisanc3 · January 2017

I'd recommend switching to twisted set and dropping recovery to something under 2.5k. There's no reason to have that much on a trapper build. Also you'll probably get better dps by dropping your crit to around 5k (7-8k if you're using cruel recovery off hand) and switching to fey

davidagaldo · January 2017

I have my power at 28K and 12K CS, same recovery. ArP is 4.5K.

I am noticing health drain fast the further I am away (AotF). An equal iL Combat build I can dance with until I am out numbered. The lower iL combat (3500iL'ish), came across two a few days ago, melted.

Came across that same self-proclaimed best wizard in the game and he was melting until he got help. Yeah, the same guy we wiped in IWD.

Just have to face it, assists is the stat Trappers fight for. I went to wipe someone above #2 in Hotenow and when I looked down saw two clusters. I got a triple kill.

So you're not combat, hmmm. We need to give it a go and get a dunk with us.

I am not as tanky it seems, I was not running AotLW or PA, it still took some effort to work my health down, but its noticeable I am not as tanky.

If I go full trapper, not sure ArP needs to be stacked so high. Definitely not required for Tapper+.

I did try points down combat but I am biased towards Archery at this point. Full trapper is great but liking this piercing damage.

I want to make Terror again. Stuck on Dread at this point so I will try Fey and bronze this weekend.

jhpnw · January 2017

4.3 combat HR now but trapper for 2 years straight i did go back to trapper to do mod 10.5. To go full trapper for pvp power high as possible and stack hps next. The idea is do damage and tons of cc. Since so many are Combat now most have went back to negation so trapper is viable and EB will actually cc down full time if you keep cc up.34k power 5k crit 8k arm pen all trapper feats to keep up roots use constrict hinder fox vs TR and CW. Other wise I forest ghost and work out side with binding constr and hindering. You are not gonna get the BIS kills but running with a GWF or Combat HR makes a awesome combo. I have went back to combat since I pug a lot but had over a 1000 assist as trapper before everything reset

rhadamathys · January 2017

davidagaldo said:

So you're not combat, hmmm. We need to give it a go and get a dunk with us.

ran with Fraycial, Cullen, and Dragonfly. didn't run into other premades, but it was interesting. I'll look at swapping around my offense and see what I can come up with. 12k Recovery a must?

@jhpnw thanks for sharing, makes sense to forgo crit with a trapper build, esp with crit resistance. I'll try a full trapper with all vicious and see.

abaddon · January 2017

the issue ive run into is i like builds that work in both game modes. pvp and pve. sadly trapper is king in pve and i lose a lot of dps and survivability when i go combat. at 2.5k ilvl combat isnt that tanky and on trapper im outdpsing people at 3kilvl esp combat hr's pve wise. i wont be pvping until i get my gear high as its not worth it.

w1ckc1ty · January 2017

I run a power, recovery build on my combat HR. Also I run Feytouch, wth points in throw caution feat instead of gambit. An ohgmas token is a must in this new meta, between the oppressors and stun TRs.
W1CKED@EVISCERATE

jhpnw · January 2017

After around 4 repect tokens trying things here's what I came up with! HR combat build works great in pvp and pve I have no trouble in FBI or MSVA I am top 3 Dragon flight and Tia usually am 1st. I have no trouble finishing off orcus in a 1 vs one when whole team drops with 25% left

note working on New mod 10.5 weapons they are BIS but twisted is really good also
GEAR
dragon flight chest with soul forge head and feet @ elemental umbral bracers PVE
full Prestige for PVP with EB if fighting high level CW if not negation
running Imperial set for recovery mostly but gives nice damage boost as well but if had full LOS set I would use it rather than biuld a imperial set i have both so either are good orcus was not doing well as I thought on preveiw si i saved the ad and sold it real life do to my style of fighting
running brutal in offense slots for max crit and power
and viscous and savage in defense slots
rosegold ring with rad and rad for pvp
brutality ring with azure savage pve
+4 rising precision with azure savage pve
+4 sudden deflect rad rad PVP
in PVE base before bonding after bonding in PVP
power 29 k 52k 32k
crit 15k 34k 102% 11k
recov 5k
Arm pen 4k 72%
Lifst 20% in melee 33% 22%
deflect 48% 78% in pvp over 100%
COMPANIONS
SHADOW DEMON FOR DEFLECT
DANCING BLADE FOR LEGENDARY AND FOR CRIT SEV
SELL SWORD DEBUFFS AND BUFFS TO DPS
AIR ARCHON DPS BUFF AND DOESNOT GO UNSUMMONED IN FBI AND PROCTS BONDING IN A FEW SECONDS
COCITRICE FOR STATS

SUMMONED AIR ARCHON THIS IS WHERE I GET MY 60 % ARM PEN AND HIGH DEFLECT FOR PVE
RING LOYAL AVENGER AZURE AND DARK
SAVORG RING 435 DEFLECT/DEFENSE AZURE AND SLIVER
NECLACE OF LOYAL AVENGER AZURE AND VICOUS

SECRETS TO PVE damage AOTS AOTF
ROTATION
Fire LS at max distance buffs whole party as much as 58% shift to melee fox in to close drop PG and gushing wounds learn to get this done in less than 4 seconds so all 3 buffed then split strike to clean up 3 strikes are at Combat cap stone so big dps hits . In boss fight shift to range drop cordon on way out to ranged to get LS again apply CA and sezmic right before start LS rotation again. In DF I just shoot LS at an empowered for max buff then start rotation again

important things learn to use Longstriders correctly look for long distance targets to shoot so don't have to go back out to max range for all buffs and get gladiators guile for mount for speed bonus. Also when caught in close combat learn to encounter the split strike for 2 seconds big dps hits with capstone.

PVP I use forest ghost disruptive shot lone wolf and path finders action
drop thorn ward on node red un nerves 80 % of competitors as well as damges and debuffs I then fox in pg and Split strike and thorn strike to death forest ghost out to apply tw again if need to save FG then quick disruptive shot to trigger more deflect

important pvp tips
dealing with trs and CW fox gives free dodge so plan it vs there attacks then disruptive gives them interruptions with correct use of fox and disruptive I frees you up to carry a rooting Arti like rod or chromatic storm

my setup as pathfinder is great I have no problems once I have ran with others in getting invited back they love the buffs to dps from longstriders and dodges from fox they get.and i do great dps as well as buff
my path
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/hr?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,13i3iki:1000000:1uu5zzv:1000000&h=0&p=swd&o=0

jonkoca · January 2017

I respecced back to combat for a couple of days' pvp after not playing dom for a month or two. I have all the usual HR pvp gear. PG still isn't as definitive as it used to be, unless used on pugs.

Respecced back to my old trapper pve build - pvp just isn't fun enough to justify a dedicated build anymore. Tiresome, unrewarding and time consuming. And with the key changes and general level of grindy bollocks in Pve now, guess I'll switch to maintainance mode till the next mod full of grindy bollocks drops.

Meh, neverwinter needs a major shot in the arm or something, just isn't fun anymore.

wdj40 · January 2017

jonkoca said:
I respecced back to combat for a couple of days' pvp after not playing dom for a month or two. I have all the usual HR pvp gear. PG still isn't as definitive as it used to be, unless used on pugs.

Respecced back to my old trapper pve build - pvp just isn't fun enough to justify a dedicated build anymore. Tiresome, unrewarding and time consuming. And with the key changes and general level of grindy bollocks in Pve now, guess I'll switch to maintainance mode till the next mod full of grindy bollocks drops.

Meh, neverwinter needs a major shot in the arm or something, just isn't fun anymore.

I cant even comment on the PvP side of things at the moment. I only really fly solo as I like randomness etc of each game... But I have tried to PvP a few times since the solo queue finished on the Xbox... But I just get smacked around by 3/4/5 man teams so I have been unable to play around and test builds.

rhadamathys · January 2017

After trying a bunch of diff trapper combos, I got frustrated with the solo survivability (or lack there of) of the trapper in PvP. Despite the fact that I played a PvE trapper for the past 2 years, I wasn't comfortable running the combos in PvP like I am with the Combat.

I will say that if you go combat for PvE, it's well worth doing PvP to learn technique. I've been doing a few things PvE lately and have been surprised at how well a PvP build does in that realm now that I know how to play it better.

davidagaldo · January 2017

Exactly, I was amazed with the results in the dungeons. Even Orcus. Worth it for the experience.

Quite a group we had last night. Have to run that comp again soon.

mamalion1234 · January 2017

ONE Question do roots or dazes from crushing root can resisted at all? 40% deflection here -cc resist 40% tenacity full + elven and i couldnt move vs a combat yes you read right vs combat

jonkoca · January 2017

Crushing is really just an interrupt, the daze can be resisted to the point where it's microscopically short, but the constant interrupt will stop you using your encounters with any kind of accuracy or reliability. The roots will stop you moving, but again, it's not the duration that matters, but the fact they are constantly reapplied.

You are absolutely sure the guy was combat..? A combat HR can usually put out only 2 roots/dazes per rotation, and that rotation is slooooooowwwwww...... a trapper however can lock you down nearly ad infinitum. Unless the guy had a rod of restraint artifact, and even that is a fairly short duration.

mamalion1234 · January 2017

i was wrong he was trapper but with good damage. I never liked the idea to use an elven enchantment but hey i said here i need to fight back VS the controler. BUT in the case of this trapper it felt like cc resistances seemed useless.
THe constantly reapplied thing seems to be a lot stronger cc than a cw can do.
Yes as wizards we have the repel but at least our enemies can dodge that ability and fight back in case of trapper you are locked until an oghma or an annointed army or maelstorm of chaos to just stop it;p

jonkoca · January 2017

Elven doesn't really do much against trapper cc, its duration is already micro short, its the constant reapplication that locks you down. Oghmas is the only answer.

Combat vs Trapper for PvP

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