I'm confused, why wouldn't you want to kill guildies?

rhadamathys · January 2017

pretty much the title sums it up, but I'm confused why people don't want to fight in Dom... It's a game, it's fun, it's a challenge, and who cares if you win/lose against friends. I play boardgames all the time with friends, we try to win and don't hold it against each other if we do...how's this any different?

If you are so fragile that your friend mercing you in a game offends you (or you mercing them), you have bigger issues you need to resolve.

pando83 · January 2017

rhadamathys said:
pretty much the title sums it up, but I'm confused why people don't want to fight in Dom... It's a game, it's fun, it's a challenge, and who cares if you win/lose against friends. I play boardgames all the time with friends, we try to win and don't hold it against each other if we do...how's this any different?

If you are so fragile that your friend mercing you in a game offends you (or you mercing them), you have bigger issues you need to resolve.

Quite unclear. What is the answer?
There are several types of players.

Some care only about kills and "wins" and act accordingly. They will stop fighting if they can't farm kills or win, or both. And run from nodes when (oh my god!) they might get killed.
Some only care about fun fights and will not bother fighting only when the game is clearly one-sided and there's no fight but just a one-sided slaughter.
Some seem to avoid fighting guildies or allies (pretty funny).

In my opinion a good and fun match is simply a match where both sides can fight back and you can play as a team. Does not matter who wins or loses, and who get killed or kills more. A match where you don't need cheap cap trade but even the losing team can cap nodes and fight back. Kill and get killed.

But if you ask some players they will tell you that to be a smart player you must care only about winning and killing. If your team mates can't grant you a win, such players will tell you that it's "smart" to just run off node trying to farm cheap kills.

crowdsourced · January 2017

Some players are fine with this, but killing guildies is one of the main causes of drama and players leaving guilds. People in higher position hate dying or losing especially to a lower-ranked guildmate. With the PVP community shrinking, guilds would rather just keep the few good players in the game rather than risk having drama.

Some of them do fight each other in other areas such as 1v1s in Icewind Dale or in inhouses.

rhadamathys · January 2017

Thanks, must be diff on the xbox than pc. I understand lopsided wins and not trying as a result, but I don't understand the not trying/avoiding fights for the sake of not hurting feelings... seems like a good fight is a good fight regardless of guildie or not. In fact I think you'd learn more by fighting guildies in that you can talk to them afterward and see what they suggest that you change up.

crowdsourced · January 2017

rhadamathys said:
Thanks, must be diff on the xbox than pc. I understand lopsided wins and not trying as a result, but I don't understand the not trying/avoiding fights for the sake of not hurting feelings... seems like a good fight is a good fight regardless of guildie or not. In fact I think you'd learn more by fighting guildies in that you can talk to them afterward and see what they suggest that you change up.

Some players are up for it, but there are quite a number of players who tend to get salty when they die or get ganked or get a loss due to guildmates. As a result, several PVP guilds have decided that it is more important to keep the few remaining good players in the game rather than risk losing them.

Like I said before, they do fight each other in Icewind Dale and in inhouses for practice.

pando83 · January 2017

@crowdsourced

I can't understand such way of playing PvP. You are saying that basically they fight only as long as things go by their rules.
Or as long as it's "convenient" for their guild. They "train together" to basically stomp others, and avoid real fights.
You are sure that things work this way in many PvP guilds? Because it would be a real shame.

crowdsourced · January 2017

pando83 said:
@crowdsourced

I can't understand such way of playing PvP. You are saying that basically they fight only as long as things go by their rules.
Or as long as it's "convenient" for their guild. They "train together" to basically stomp others, and avoid real fights.
You are sure that things work this way in many PvP guilds? Because it would be a real shame.

Every PVP guild has a lot of players with different personalities. Some teams like to avoid stronger premades, others think they can beat everyone so they go into it, and others just play for fun.

And yes they "train together" to get better and stomp others, but isn't that the point of joining a PVP guild?

demonmonger · January 2017

And that's how matches are lost.....

trgluestickz · January 2017

rhadamathys said:
pretty much the title sums it up, but I'm confused why people don't want to fight in Dom... It's a game, it's fun, it's a challenge, and who cares if you win/lose against friends. I play boardgames all the time with friends, we try to win and don't hold it against each other if we do...how's this any different?

If you are so fragile that your friend mercing you in a game offends you (or you mercing them), you have bigger issues you need to resolve.

rhadamathys said:
Thanks, must be diff on the xbox than pc. I understand lopsided wins and not trying as a result, but I don't understand the not trying/avoiding fights for the sake of not hurting feelings... seems like a good fight is a good fight regardless of guildie or not. In fact I think you'd learn more by fighting guildies in that you can talk to them afterward and see what they suggest that you change up.

+1 agree

For me, the concept of not wanting to fight guild mates, alliance mates, or friends in pvp is an alien mindset. In fact, I am MORE motivated to attack you if you are a friend of mine, not less. And that's exactly how it should be. I understand not continuing to attack a person who is hopelessly outmatched and specifically asks not to continue fighting and leaving PVE players, duelers, ice grinders, and testers in the open world zone in peace. But not being willing to attack guild mates, alliance mates, or friends if they end up on the opposing team is HAMSTER ridiculous.

Fighting your friends makes them stronger in addition to making you stronger and it can be a lot of fun. If people find they get frustrated from losing, understand that frustration doesn't always have to be discouraging or irredeemably upsetting. You have power over your perception and you can put a better spin on that rage and use it to improve. If you win, you feel good; if you win most of the time, you should feel really good; but if you always win, eventually you are probably going to get bored because there is no challenge left. I urge people to remember that.

crowdsourced · January 2017

trgluestickz said:

For me, the concept of not wanting to fight guild mates, alliance mates, or friends in pvp is an alien mindset. In fact, I am MORE motivated to attack you if you are a friend of mine, not less.........But not being willing to attack guild mates, alliance mates, or friends if they end up on the opposing team is HAMSTER ridiculous.

I think there is some confusion. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any PVP guild that completely forbids attacking your own guildmate during a match.

Perhaps you mean 'calling pops on guild chat' so that queue groups within a guild do not fight each other? I do know that certain PVP guilds employ that rule.

trgluestickz said:

Fighting your friends makes them stronger in ddition to making you stronger and it can be a lot of fun.

Players in PVP guilds do fight each other in Icewind Dale in 1v1s. They also do inhouses (An arranged match between same guild vs same guild). There is less drama in those.

pando83 · January 2017

crowdsourced#3904 said:

Every PVP guild has a lot of players with different personalities. Some teams like to avoid stronger premades, others think they can beat everyone so they go into it, and others just play for fun.

And yes they "train together" to get better and stomp others, but isn't that the point of joining a PVP guild?

In my opinion a good PvP guild is joined because you want to train and fight with and against other PvP-focused players. It means that you train, obviously, fight people from other guilds, but, if you're a serious PvPer, you also fight your guildies with everything you have. My guild is not even PvP-focused, and yet me and my guild mates have at least the fair play to do not spare each others when we meet in PvP. We actually enjoy fighting each others.

It's also funny to read that guildies from PvP guilds don't want to "gang-up on a guildie if the match is decided", when then you see them doing so against other people. You see them spawncamping or talking about how it's legit to keep killing enemies even after a match is decided because "it's PvP and if you join it you must fight no matter what".
Some nice double standard.

True PvPers fight everyone as long as there's a chance to fight.
And when you play you must either avoid stomping on everyone or stomp on everyone. Not some hypocritical stuff like "i enjoy stomping others but i avoid doing so if i meet guildies/ allies because it would be bad". Quite hypocritical. Sounds more like a gang than a PvP guild.
The other funny part is that such players will tell you that they spawncamp or keep killing when the match is decided because it's PvP and it's "your fault" if you get stomped (because you're either not strong enough, or didn't form your own premade exc...). But then, when they meet guildies or allies, they become masters of fair play. Or even worse, the stomp everyone else EXCEPT their guildie/ ally. Seen this too. One player allowed to go down or even 1v1 when the others were forced to sit in spawn to avoid getting ganged up and killed.

In my opinion, a good PvP player:

- stops fighting only when there's no chance to fight back but also when the enemy can't fight back (one sided match)
- avoids stomping weaker enemies
- fights everyone, no matter if it's a guildie or an ally
- does not care about wins or kills but just about the fun of a fight
- do not spawncamp
- do not troll losing enemies

this is how i've been playing PvP since i joined this game. Obviously, this is my opinion. I can clearly see that other players have a...ehrm...different "idea" of PvP.

pando83 · January 2017

demonmonger said:
And that's how matches are lost.....

Plus it's funny to see players stomping in game/ keep killing others when the match is decided but then say it's something they don't do on guildies/ allies. Such players are stompers.
Good players avoid stomping not just against guildies/ allies, but against every other player. It's called fair play and respect, and maturity.

crowdsourced · January 2017

I'm not sure if you are looking for responses to your post or are just ranting but since you quoted me, I'll reply.

pando83 said:

In my opinion a good PvP guild is joined because you want to train and fight with and against other PvP-focused players. It means that you train, obviously, fight people from other guilds, but, if you're a serious PvPer, you also fight your guildies with everything you have.

They do fight and train a lot against their guildmates like I said in Icewind Dale, on the preview shard and during inhouses. They bring everything they have there. As far as I know, once you go into PVP, there is no rule stating you cannot attack your guildmates if the match is still going on.

pando83 said:

It's also funny to read that guildies from PvP guilds don't want to "gang-up on a guildie if the match is decided", when then you see them doing so against other people. You see them spawncamping...Some nice double standard.

It is a double standard but not every PVP player participates in those behavior/s. There are decent and indecent PVP players just as there are polite and impolite PVE players.

pando83 said:

But then, when they meet guildies or allies, they become masters of fair play. Or even worse, the stomp everyone else EXCEPT their guildie/ ally. Seen this too. One player allowed to go down or even 1v1 when the others were forced to sit in spawn to avoid getting ganged up and killed.

Of course they will be masters of fair play. They do not want to incite unnecessary drama from within their guild or other bigger PVP guilds. Isn't that the same with life though? You are prone to be more respectful to other people in power. I don't know what else to say. You are right in that there are hypocrites and jerks in PVP guilds.

emilemo · January 2017

Ive no such problem. Killing someone 2k below me is another story

ilusiphur · January 2017

crowdsourced#3904 said:

trgluestickz said:

For me, the concept of not wanting to fight guild mates, alliance mates, or friends in pvp is an alien mindset. In fact, I am MORE motivated to attack you if you are a friend of mine, not less.........But not being willing to attack guild mates, alliance mates, or friends if they end up on the opposing team is HAMSTER ridiculous.
I think there is some confusion. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any PVP guild that completely forbids attacking your own guildmate during a match.

Perhaps you mean 'calling pops on guild chat' so that queue groups within a guild do not fight each other? I do know that certain PVP guilds employ that rule.
trgluestickz said:

Fighting your friends makes them stronger in ddition to making you stronger and it can be a lot of fun.
Players in PVP guilds do fight each other in Icewind Dale in 1v1s. They also do inhouses (An arranged match between same guild vs same guild). There is less drama in those.

It may not be a "rule" but I have been in many matches where my team stopped fighting with NO "gg" call. When asked why, the reason they give is "that's my guild over there." Even you admit that it is a common practice to avoid "in guild drama." The other point of view is that by avoiding conflict in-guild, the game as a whole, is being negatively effected.

indylol · January 2017

@xsayajinx1

Your post is the real answer here. No one wants to 5v1 their guildmate over n over so its not entirely uncommon to just not kill them. If its a sweaty match for both sides then everyones fair game.

crowdsourced · January 2017

ilusiphur said:

It may not be a "rule" but I have been in many matches where my team stopped fighting with NO "gg" call. When asked why, the reason they give is "that's my guild over there." Even you admit that it is a common practice to avoid "in guild drama." The other point of view is that by avoiding conflict in-guild, the game as a whole, is being negatively effected.

Maybe they knew the game was already over since it was a premade team on the other side

trgluestickz · January 2017

crowdsourced#3904 said:

trgluestickz said:

For me, the concept of not wanting to fight guild mates, alliance mates, or friends in pvp is an alien mindset. In fact, I am MORE motivated to attack you if you are a friend of mine, not less.........But not being willing to attack guild mates, alliance mates, or friends if they end up on the opposing team is HAMSTER ridiculous.
I think there is some confusion. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any PVP guild that completely forbids attacking your own guildmate during a match.

Perhaps you mean 'calling pops on guild chat' so that queue groups within a guild do not fight each other? I do know that certain PVP guilds employ that rule.
trgluestickz said:

Fighting your friends makes them stronger in ddition to making you stronger and it can be a lot of fun.
Players in PVP guilds do fight each other in Icewind Dale in 1v1s. They also do inhouses (An arranged match between same guild vs same guild). There is less drama in those.

The way I see it, fighting your guildmates in inhouses and icewind duels while good, simply isn't good enough if those people still have the tendency to stop fighting each other in a random match because their guildmates and freinds are on the opposite team. I have also heard some alliances have people that extend this tendency to alliancemates as if the guildmates and friends wasn't bad enough. While avoiding drama sounds semi-reasonable on paper, those with this mindset actively contribute to making pvp as a whole a more boring place for everyone by doing this. The #1 reason I have seen experienced pvpers leave this game is a combination of boredom and/or frustrations with cryptic, thus it can be argued that contributing to mass boredom also contributes to driving out good pvp players and shrinks the community. Its harder to enjoy pvp if you are constantly on a leash and a slave to your own reputation after all.

To a reasonable degree, chivalry, respect, and empathy is beneficial for the community and helps to ease tensions between casual players and non casual players. But is all too common for this chivalry to be taken too far and has as much potential to poison PVP as bullies, exploiters, those stuck on permanant HAMSTER the world mode, and cowards do. Balance is key and expressing or likewise, repressing one side too strongly is a recipe for misery.

Out of the cage and into the fire everyone, we will all be happier for it.

ilusiphur · January 2017

crowdsourced#3904 said:

ilusiphur said:

It may not be a "rule" but I have been in many matches where my team stopped fighting with NO "gg" call. When asked why, the reason they give is "that's my guild over there." Even you admit that it is a common practice to avoid "in guild drama." The other point of view is that by avoiding conflict in-guild, the game as a whole, is being negatively effected.
Maybe they knew the game was already over since it was a premade team on the other side

Sometimes, but in those situations someone usually calls "gg." On other occasions, it was a close match, or my team was only losing by a little bit. It is a little suspicious how the "aborted" matches happen after a coup;e deaths on the opposing side

trgluestickz · January 2017

pando83 said:

rhadamathys said:
pretty much the title sums it up, but I'm confused why people don't want to fight in Dom... It's a game, it's fun, it's a challenge, and who cares if you win/lose against friends. I play boardgames all the time with friends, we try to win and don't hold it against each other if we do...how's this any different?

If you are so fragile that your friend mercing you in a game offends you (or you mercing them), you have bigger issues you need to resolve.
Quite unclear. What is the answer?
There are several types of players.

Some care only about kills and "wins" and act accordingly. They will stop fighting if they can't farm kills or win, or both. And run from nodes when (oh my god!) they might get killed.
Some only care about fun fights and will not bother fighting only when the game is clearly one-sided and there's no fight but just a one-sided slaughter.
Some seem to avoid fighting guildies or allies (pretty funny).

In my opinion a good and fun match is simply a match where both sides can fight back and you can play as a team. Does not matter who wins or loses, and who get killed or kills more. A match where you don't need cheap cap trade but even the losing team can cap nodes and fight back. Kill and get killed.

But if you ask some players they will tell you that to be a smart player you must care only about winning and killing. If your team mates can't grant you a win, such players will tell you that it's "smart" to just run off node trying to farm cheap kills.

pando83 said:

crowdsourced#3904 said:

Every PVP guild has a lot of players with different personalities. Some teams like to avoid stronger premades, others think they can beat everyone so they go into it, and others just play for fun.

And yes they "train together" to get better and stomp others, but isn't that the point of joining a PVP guild?
In my opinion a good PvP guild is joined because you want to train and fight with and against other PvP-focused players. It means that you train, obviously, fight people from other guilds, but, if you're a serious PvPer, you also fight your guildies with everything you have. My guild is not even PvP-focused, and yet me and my guild mates have at least the fair play to do not spare each others when we meet in PvP. We actually enjoy fighting each others.

It's also funny to read that guildies from PvP guilds don't want to "gang-up on a guildie if the match is decided", when then you see them doing so against other people. You see them spawncamping or talking about how it's legit to keep killing enemies even after a match is decided because "it's PvP and if you join it you must fight no matter what".
Some nice double standard.

True PvPers fight everyone as long as there's a chance to fight.
And when you play you must either avoid stomping on everyone or stomp on everyone. Not some hypocritical stuff like "i enjoy stomping others but i avoid doing so if i meet guildies/ allies because it would be bad". Quite hypocritical. Sounds more like a gang than a PvP guild.
The other funny part is that such players will tell you that they spawncamp or keep killing when the match is decided because it's PvP and it's "your fault" if you get stomped (because you're either not strong enough, or didn't form your own premade exc...). But then, when they meet guildies or allies, they become masters of fair play. Or even worse, the stomp everyone else EXCEPT their guildie/ ally. Seen this too. One player allowed to go down or even 1v1 when the others were forced to sit in spawn to avoid getting ganged up and killed.

In my opinion, a good PvP player:

- stops fighting only when there's no chance to fight back but also when the enemy can't fight back (one sided match)
- avoids stomping weaker enemies
- fights everyone, no matter if it's a guildie or an ally
- does not care about wins or kills but just about the fun of a fight
- do not spawncamp
- do not troll losing enemies

this is how i've been playing PvP since i joined this game. Obviously, this is my opinion. I can clearly see that other players have a...ehrm...different "idea" of PvP.

I find myself agreeing with parts of what you have to say but not all.

I am not sure I agree with your beef with people who run away from a platform if they are about to get killed. Most of the time, when I see someone do that, the choice is either stay on a platform they are outnumbered on and both die and lose the platform or lose the platform and not die. Which do you really expect them to pick in those cases? Every now and then you may get a situation where staying on point even though you are about to die will successfully protect a platform or stall someone but this is less common than not. Oftentimes, you can also run off platform momentarily to let your heals kick in, avoid your death, and return to help your team before the takeover meter finishes turning red as well. PVP is full of judgement calls, no one way is the right way for every situation.

You list wins and kills vs the fun of the fight in your bottom post as though you have to choose one or the other to care about. I see no reason why pvp players need to choose one or the other in order to have a good pvp attitude though ideally, fun and helping your team takes priority over those other two. PVP has a competitive element to it and not all pvpers have a casual mindset.

For the trolling people, I've seen 2 general sorts of people who do it, there are bullies and there are pucks. Bullies carry malicious intent and seek to truly make people feel like HAMSTER and viciously humiliate them. Pucks are usually good people for the most part who intend to more annoy, mildy anger, and tease an opponent in a good natured way. Occasionally, they may overstep the mark but they try to keep their fun at least somewhat balanced. At first glance, it can be hard to tell which of these 2 sorts of people you are looking at especially since many puckish people are less concerned about their reputation than many other pvp players.

As far as stomping weaker enemies and going after kills, it again depends on the extent in my opinion. Obviously avoiding fighting stronger teams/players altogether and only stomping those too weak to fight back is wrong but if you are willing to fight the stronger players as well as the weaker ones, I see no issue. It would be nice if pvp was always balanced but avoiding killing those weaker than you isn't going to magically change the balance issues inside matches. If a person calls gg and asks to cap a few times or asks to duel, leave that person alone and focus on everyone else. If people are still attacking and its not a duel, then there is no need to feel guilty or be shamed out of going on a bloodthirsty rampage if you so choose.

trgluestickz · January 2017

grrouper said:
So many times the outcome of the match is as plain as day. When you see you are up against a premade all PVP spec and 4k itl . So then you inspect your team to see 3 are below 2.5 itl and the 4th is wearing pve gear. Then match starts and you watch as your whole team heads off to home node. Knowing you do not stand a chance in hell you choose not to fight a lost cause. Yet then are somehow blamed for the lose if only you would have fault your guildies.

I think you missed the point here, I don't see any posts here saying you can't gg in hopeless circumstances. The beef many of us on this thread have is refraining to kill guildmates, alliancemates, or freinds that are on the opposite team especially in regards to "preventing drama". Basically giving guildmates, alliancemates, or freinds special favor over how one would treat a stranger of the opposite team or allowing chivalry/basic pvp etiquette to spin out of control.

ilusiphur · January 2017

grrouper said:

trgluestickz said:

grrouper said:
So many times the outcome of the match is as plain as day.
I think you missed the point here,
Not at all 95% of the time the players that cry because guildies will not fight against another guildie fail to see the match was over before it started. And not because of refusing to fight another guildie it was because match was just way to unbalanced. Yet i will see a tell from some 2k player or one that is crying trying to pass blame on refusing to fight.

Which makes it all the much more frustrating when you FINALLY get a half-way decent match-up... and half way through, ahlf your team stops fighting, because they have guild-mates on the enemy team.

killzone · January 2017

all these threads trying to defend premades make me laugh, been in so many where one of the oposing teams mates are on ours and refused to fight and even go as far as telling them where everyone is in chat and ALSO telling them to farm these SCRUBS* on his team.

i've also seen when in icewind pass these same people forming groups for premades with 4k minimum requirement to farm noobs* and yes that's was what was typed in zone chat, not to mention when i was farming black ice in the only viable place there getting chased around the zone by a group of 4kpeople from same guild repeatedly......super skilled aye! yup.

these same people slander you in zone chat, and on several occasions some random person of equal gear has offered them a fight 1v1 they either tell them go away scrub or say yes then all 5 jump on them.

i have screenshots to backup everything i say oh so many of them, oh and btw it doesn't work to hide on your alt and pretend your not killing noobs when we all know you are and know your names already.

trgluestickz · January 2017

grrouper said:

trgluestickz said:

grrouper said:
So many times the outcome of the match is as plain as day.
I think you missed the point here,
Not at all 95% of the time the players that cry because guildies will not fight against another guildie fail to see the match was over before it started. And not because of refusing to fight another guildie it was because match was just way to unbalanced. Yet i will see a tell from some 2k player or one that is crying trying to pass blame on refusing to fight.

Maybe you have had worse experiences with it and sometimes players are simply mistaken in their accusations. Happens from time to time but the existence of those players does not mean this is not a real issue that should get discussed.

I will also mention that there is something to be said for those often low geared players that display the "never give up" mindset. I can remember when I was low geared and would continue to fight even when entire team I was on quit and was being spawn camped. I got killed and ganked a lot of course but I really couldn't care less. I usually could not scratch anyone so I would simply run around the map and see how long I could survive for, it certainly beat being bored and I actually learned a surprising amount from doing so. I could dodge extremely well and my power timing was actually better back then than it has been at any point since. I was wearing nothing but green gear and had no clue how to get anything better than blue gear at the time, yet I had played daily for several mods and had no guild until right before mod 7 dropped(I was 1.8k when I joined and I never left). I'd also seen a rare handful of matches that looked hopeless for most of their duration but got turned around near the end because my team did not quit. As such, I was always irritated when my team quit.

There was a bit of naiveness mixed in with this old attitude of mine. I barely understood the concept of gg, did not know you had to have a certain number of points to get a prize(not that I would have cared), and didn't know any pvp etiquette at all.

I think along the process of gearing up and becoming more experianced, I discarded the good parts of my old attitude and succumbed to pressure from others around me instead of doing what I should have done, which is to mix the best parts of my old way of thinking with the best parts of what I learned since those days. I lost a lot of my old fire and motivation when I slowly cast out all of what I was before and I want to encourage others not to make the same mistake. It looks to me like there are a number of experienced pvpers walking around that never looked back and caught the sicknesses that often plague gaining experiance as a result.

trgluestickz · January 2017

killzone#4968 said:
all these threads trying to defend premades make me laugh, been in so many where one of the oposing teams mates are on ours and refused to fight and even go as far as telling them where everyone is in chat and ALSO telling them to farm these SCRUBS* on his team.

i've also seen when in icewind pass these same people forming groups for premades with 4k minimum requirement to farm noobs* and yes that's was what was typed in zone chat, not to mention when i was farming black ice in the only viable place there getting chased around the zone by a group of 4kpeople from same guild repeatedly......super skilled aye! yup.

these same people slander you in zone chat, and on several occasions some random person of equal gear has offered them a fight 1v1 they either tell them go away scrub or say yes then all 5 jump on them.

i have screenshots to backup everything i say oh so many of them, oh and btw it doesn't work to hide on your alt and pretend your not killing noobs when we all know you are and know your names already.

Its sounds like you have had a rough time. Try to understand premaders are not all the same though, I made that mistake in my past as well as I'd run into a lot of really awful people from large guilds myself. I disliked all of the major guilds as a result for a long time, even ones I had never had a direct encounter with because I believed them to all be the same. I have since learned over time that big guilds and premades have their share of good and their share of bad and some regulate themselves better on average than others. I have since made friends with some of the good premaders I've seen and pvp with them when a group is available.

I'm confused, why wouldn't you want to kill guildies?

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