Just want to remind you all Press the Advantage is a T2 scoundrel feat, in order to get it you are essentially investing 10 feat points in a single 5% damage increase (on a 20K power rating). Even the saboteur tier 1 could account for that loss in a scenario where you use ITC to buff your duelist flurry. You don't take Press the Advantage without making sacrifices from the executioner tree either, so while we're talking about "maximum efficiency" I'd like to offer you this link to ACT and Preview;
On a really BiS spectrum, wouldn't your party benefit more from unslotting ITC for Wicked Reminder, while taking 10pts worth of executioner feats instead?
GLHF
(Edit: AS doesn't heal; afterthought on WR)
Seriously ?! We are going with the links... And hints...
So here a link for you too, nwcalc.com for the tooltips. You will notice 2 things: 1. At 15 points in scoundrel there is back ally tactics. 2. Dying breath & Twisted Grin needs an enemy to die, small hint for bosses in FBI, they don't have mobs.
What will be the benefit from those executioner feats there? And please do not forget that there are 3 encounter slots! *Gasp* You can have it both! WR & ITC ! Right ?! I'm in shock too !
Btw how you got to 5% dps increase, with 20k power, it should be 3.3% And about 7.5% at 120k power. 8.1% at 180k power.
The reference as a crouch was to morenthar, if I quote him, it double new lines all his posts. And I don't want to go line by line fixing it. Sorry for the confusion there.
First of all, ITC is totally unnecessary for PvE, at any level. It's just another crutch.
Squabbling aside, I'm glad you are able to dodge, but unfortunately not everyone is you. And if people use ITC, let them have it, as I've said, if the issue is PvP, ask for PvP change... There is a difference between what you or I or someone else needs, and what the class needs in general.
With all the respect to Banelorne, I really do understand the fun and appeal in the perma stealth, but there was nothing more horrible than to meet one in PvE, it was either watching someone doing less damage than a companion (exaggerating a bit, but it was extremely low) or earlier in the days waiting for them to get to the final spawn and 'magicly' get there too, and/or worst case, wait until the TR solo the boss, and it was a long long long wait. I can't think of anything worse for group content. And this was large part why TRs had problems to pug after the campfires were fixed (mod2 or 3 iirc).
From PVE perspective i simply dont see ITC in encounter slot, it doesnt do dmg directly, it doesnt proc SoD, cooldown is long. It could be used to maximize dmg done in one SoD duration but then u would have do 2 SoD durations without it. Could have been usefull to survive in FBI climb with giants but now when it cannot be used in middle of things forget about it. Anyway dont see ITC as replacement for any of the Smoke bomb/Dazing strike/Lashing blade/Wicked reminder. I was using it when i just reached lvl70 but back then i didnt use the rotations i use today, had no lifesteal so it was needed to survive. Right now i see it purely as PVP ability, tho i have no clue about PVP so wont go deeper into that part. TR's need a general damage boost for PVE, among gwf, cw, hr, sw, we are definitely on last spot, even gf are better. Not only PVE, from what i heard PVP needs it too bcs aside from SE i didnt hear about any other ability which lets you kill an opponent in 1vs1 and we only collect points in Assist section. Every decent PVE TR does have Back alley tactics from scoundrell tree bcs feats in executioner which proc when something dies are simply not usefull. I am certainly not BiS but i am not lame either, even with handicap of having a crappy pc. I had a CN multirun with a really good GWF, Prokiller, in a normal run i was able to do around 2/3 of his damage while giving my best. Then we started doing speed runs, under 10mins, thats when dmg difference became became 100%, in around 10 runs he did 2x my dmg every single run. I dont even want to think what would be if we ran FBI, it would jump to 3x if not more. Would going BiS make me far better? I dont think so. Maybe there is some secret build or rotation which makes us TR's do scary things but i cant think of it. Back to ITC, imo it has no place in PVE, for a PVP i dont know, it seems like justified ability for an Assists collector, the way it was before the latest change. Even in World of Warcraft, Rogues have the same ability called Cloak of Shadows. Maybe it should be added to both MI and WK and provide MI some other paragon unique ability.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I'll concede then. This is clearly a case of "Devs why did you ruin my toy!". I'm sorry bud, nothing dulls that pain but time.
This is how it works now, you patronize with ACT links and when that doesn't work, you just ignore everything else... Ironically I don't even use ITC. But somehow I don't try to make it as a superior success over people that use.
Glib comments aside, the difference between us is, I'm trying to maybe find a way to live with it while you're still protesting. Where you have every right to be.
Point out; nowhere in the patch notes was this specified to be an intended nerf. I read through many of the changes and suspiciously similar, the HR Plant Growth had some clunkiness issue after the fact. The devs shortly admitted that it was a bug and will be looked at soon. Should you decide that's a better use of your energy...
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I'll quote myself from the other thread:
Bottom line, I will applaud separation of PvP and PvE, but random skill changes that widely used by people is not the way to get balance there or there. Or more correctly, IMO, it was changed because of the new weapons, so ITC can proc the weapon buff. I assume that one of the devs saw it and changed it so. IMO it was a haphazard change that didn't take into account neither PvP or PvE and the verity of uses.
I actually do not use ITC, but others have very high ping, or can't dodge in time or use it as part of a buff build, 'random' changes like this break a lot of things.
Well to be strictly honest with you, I do use ITC. In PvP, it's useful. In PvE, it's usefulness depends on the situation. But I'm not attached to it as much and the changes, if intended though chances are it's probably not, did not kill the PvE TR. It's been dead a long time, and you guys are just clinging like ghosts, which deserves some applaud. And yes, that's a hint, but this time for the devs. You would think the walls are listening but...
And I am too lazy to do long term math curves with your dps, there's too many variables, I'll just clarify that the 5% is the flat out conversion from 2000 power, the 10% of the 20k power sample rating. Press the Advantage adds 5% to the many damage modifiers you might be stacking, towards a sum of, i really shouldn't bore everyone with the math.
Lastly, just to copy paste what blur said, Smoke Bomb/Lashing/Dazing/Wicked Reminder are my go-to. There used to be a space for a not-so-hard kept secret of spamming Blade Fury, but that went down the drain with the Lostmauth set nerf.
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited November 2016
I use the same Dazing, smoke, lashing / BF/ WR (Blade Flurry in CN hordes only, and without lurkers + tc4, just with WW and enough crit chance from bondings)
I'm also in a highly enough ranked guild that just with the power & LS boon, a new player should've have an issue. The problem is exactly how we got how TR looks, it's another skill that just became even less useful, and it more or less bypassed everyone. I actually didn't post anything until I saw TRs post in the spirit of "I don't use it, so it should be removed". I can understand asking for changes, balance, PvP issues, but not the "It's a crouch" lets remove it with some assumption for future damage buff that is still arriving for now 6 mods. While some players rely on it, and mostly in the less geared or with higher ping, etc... IMO, this "turn the other cheek" due to all the PvP based reworks is what brought us so far.
For the math, if someone interested:
Press the advantage is 10% of all power (buffs included, unlike shadowborn. Confirmed recently by sirjimbofrancis) So with a general damage equation:
Because we 'test' only one thing we can assume all the rest is static (only difference is Press the advatage) so we simplify to:
(1 + power/40000) vs (1 + power*1.1/40000) meaning, in percents:
(1 + power*1.1/40000) / (1 + power/40000) * 100 For 20k power it will be 103.33 -> 3.3% increase. For 120k 7.5% and so on. In PvE sitting at about 150k is more or less average. Either self buffs like WW and shadowborn or group buffs like DC.
The problem with ITC as self buff is the very short duration, IMO, it makes sense only as activating on the 10th stack of DF, to get the benefit from all the bleed ticks and future SoDs. I personally can't time it correctly reliably, especially with the DF stacks are random so the 10th can be on the end of the second DF or at the beginning of the third. The new change makes it completely impossible, because activating ITC during DF...
Some use it as a buff before smoke bomb before a large group of mobs, significantly easier to do, and after whirlwind with enough power to make it an actual increase.
Yes, this wont kill PvE TR, it's just one more thing added to the useless list. The problem is that list is very long, and the usefull things list becomes shorter and shorter.
Yup, that's the long term math of it all! Though I'm more of a half-math-and-feel kind of person. I'd do some initial theories with numbers, then just put it to test and see where the ACT logs land me, get to skip all those internal computations in the process. People can be good at math, doesn't mean you have to like it.
Then this little misunderstanding with crutch, since I said it too, why don't ya let me take it back on behalf of the rest of us. Perhaps it's a stronger word to some, though between morenthar and I, it's more of an inside joke... or I could never know! Hah! But me saying crutch doesn't mean anyone is bad.. it's a legit power allowed into the game by the devs and you are perfectly fine to use it.
To the ones who need it the most for survival, this discussion about Press the Advantage actually makes little sense because this squeezing-every-last-ounce-of-dps on a 2.5k TR... it doesn't keep them alive at all.
I sure still hope that it's a bug, and over that, a complete overhaul is necessary for this class.
I use the same Dazing, smoke, lashing / BF/ WR (Blade Flurry in CN hordes only, and without lurkers + tc4, just with WW and enough crit chance from bondings)
I'm also in a highly enough ranked guild that just with the power & LS boon, a new player should've have an issue. The problem is exactly how we got how TR looks, it's another skill that just became even less useful, and it more or less bypassed everyone. I actually didn't post anything until I saw TRs post in the spirit of "I don't use it, so it should be removed". I can understand asking for changes, balance, PvP issues, but not the "It's a crouch" lets remove it with some assumption for future damage buff that is still arriving for now 6 mods. While some players rely on it, and mostly in the less geared or with higher ping, etc... IMO, this "turn the other cheek" due to all the PvP based reworks is what brought us so far.
For the math, if someone interested:
Press the advantage is 10% of all power (buffs included, unlike shadowborn. Confirmed recently by sirjimbofrancis) So with a general damage equation:
Because we 'test' only one thing we can assume all the rest is static (only difference is Press the advatage) so we simplify to:
(1 + power/40000) vs (1 + power*1.1/40000) meaning, in percents:
(1 + power*1.1/40000) / (1 + power/40000) * 100 For 20k power it will be 103.33 -> 3.3% increase. For 120k 7.5% and so on. In PvE sitting at about 150k is more or less average. Either self buffs like WW and shadowborn or group buffs like DC.
The problem with ITC as self buff is the very short duration, IMO, it makes sense only as activating on the 10th stack of DF, to get the benefit from all the bleed ticks and future SoDs. I personally can't time it correctly reliably, especially with the DF stacks are random so the 10th can be on the end of the second DF or at the beginning of the third. The new change makes it completely impossible, because activating ITC during DF...
Some use it as a buff before smoke bomb before a large group of mobs, significantly easier to do, and after whirlwind with enough power to make it an actual increase.
Yes, this wont kill PvE TR, it's just one more thing added to the useless list. The problem is that list is very long, and the usefull things list becomes shorter and shorter.
Well said. I use ITC as more of a tool to not stop in the middle of a rotation when I am trying to maximize damage for SoD when fighting bosses, but also as a significant power boost against mobs. Now, as far as the rest goes, @micky1p00 makes a very valid point. That is, that while you all may not use ITC, it can be a useful tool in TR builds that are different from your build. And, not to put too fine a point on it, your build may not be the best build out there just because it is the one you use.
That being said, the more number of tools that loose viability for us, the more and more similar our builds are going to start looking. That's not a good thing for people who like to think "outside the box". On that, I think we can all agree. Plus, we tend to think in terms of endgame content, because that is where we spend all our time. However, there are a lot of people trying to give the TR class a shot, and, for a class that is, perhaps, more challenging to master than the average, to put one of the only defensive powers we have at a disadvantage, is probably also not a good thing.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
terramakterramak Posts: 545 Cryptic Developer November 8 Thanks again for all the feedback, folks.
I can't currently give an expected timeline for future fixes to things Infantile Compensation procs off of. I believe the current plan is to address other cases where the power rapidly procs.
The unexpected / undocumented change to HR Plant Growth was added to our internal issue tracking the other day, and I'll ask folks to take a look at the ITC change too. Appreciated.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I can't currently give an expected timeline for future fixes to things Infantile Compensation procs off of. I believe the current plan is to address other cases where the power rapidly procs.
The unexpected / undocumented change to HR Plant Growth was added to our internal issue tracking the other day, and I'll ask folks to take a look at the ITC change too. Appreciated.
Nice! The ITC change was suspicious from the start, I just had that gut feeling. #ThumbsUp to the most useful post here.
Well, here is, perhaps, a use for ITC: With the new weapon sets, we don't want to dodge to proc the defense part of the set. We want the offensive bonus up as much as possible. With ITC, we don't have to dodge as much, and ITC procs the offensive bonus, too. Just a thought.
And, I JUST finished a blog post about how I wasn't going to really use ITC anymore...
T_T
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
yeah, it crossed my mind when I did some testing with the new weapons on preview.. my only issue is, no matter how I try to pay attention the defense bonus is the one that almost always proc.. unless you can count the weapons cd in your head, and somehow sync that with your encounter cd, AND somehow also sync that with the random red telegraphs on the floor... it can get a bit too distracting
+we need the dodge as gap closer cause we're melee
yeah, it crossed my mind when I did some testing with the new weapons on preview.. my only issue is, no matter how I try to pay attention the defense bonus is the one that almost always proc.. unless you can count the weapons cd in your head, and somehow sync that with your encounter cd, AND somehow also sync that with the random red telegraphs on the floor... it can get a bit too distracting
+we need the dodge as gap closer cause we're melee
Yeah, it may be too much. I have found that, at least in the groups it takes to run msva, with my recovery sitting at something over 6000, and all the other buffs from everyone else, my ITC comes back in less than 10 seconds, so that may eliminate the worry about having the encounter up. If the tank can hold the aggro well, and if we are able to just pop ITC whenever it comes up in between other powers (sigh), and if we are able to stand there and hack away... If, if, if... I guess we'll just have to fiddle around with our rotation and see if it is viable.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Comments
We are going with the links... And hints...
So here a link for you too, nwcalc.com for the tooltips.
You will notice 2 things:
1. At 15 points in scoundrel there is back ally tactics.
2. Dying breath & Twisted Grin needs an enemy to die, small hint for bosses in FBI, they don't have mobs.
What will be the benefit from those executioner feats there?
And please do not forget that there are 3 encounter slots! *Gasp*
You can have it both! WR & ITC ! Right ?! I'm in shock too !
Btw how you got to 5% dps increase, with 20k power, it should be 3.3%
And about 7.5% at 120k power. 8.1% at 180k power.
The reference as a crouch was to morenthar, if I quote him, it double new lines all his posts. And I don't want to go line by line fixing it. Sorry for the confusion there.
Squabbling aside, I'm glad you are able to dodge, but unfortunately not everyone is you. And if people use ITC, let them have it, as I've said, if the issue is PvP, ask for PvP change...
There is a difference between what you or I or someone else needs, and what the class needs in general.
With all the respect to Banelorne, I really do understand the fun and appeal in the perma stealth, but there was nothing more horrible than to meet one in PvE, it was either watching someone doing less damage than a companion (exaggerating a bit, but it was extremely low) or earlier in the days waiting for them to get to the final spawn and 'magicly' get there too, and/or worst case, wait until the TR solo the boss, and it was a long long long wait.
I can't think of anything worse for group content. And this was large part why TRs had problems to pug after the campfires were fixed (mod2 or 3 iirc).
I was using it when i just reached lvl70 but back then i didnt use the rotations i use today, had no lifesteal so it was needed to survive. Right now i see it purely as PVP ability, tho i have no clue about PVP so wont go deeper into that part.
TR's need a general damage boost for PVE, among gwf, cw, hr, sw, we are definitely on last spot, even gf are better. Not only PVE, from what i heard PVP needs it too bcs aside from SE i didnt hear about any other ability which lets you kill an opponent in 1vs1 and we only collect points in Assist section.
Every decent PVE TR does have Back alley tactics from scoundrell tree bcs feats in executioner which proc when something dies are simply not usefull.
I am certainly not BiS but i am not lame either, even with handicap of having a crappy pc. I had a CN multirun with a really good GWF, Prokiller, in a normal run i was able to do around 2/3 of his damage while giving my best. Then we started doing speed runs, under 10mins, thats when dmg difference became became 100%, in around 10 runs he did 2x my dmg every single run. I dont even want to think what would be if we ran FBI, it would jump to 3x if not more.
Would going BiS make me far better? I dont think so. Maybe there is some secret build or rotation which makes us TR's do scary things but i cant think of it.
Back to ITC, imo it has no place in PVE, for a PVP i dont know, it seems like justified ability for an Assists collector, the way it was before the latest change. Even in World of Warcraft, Rogues have the same ability called Cloak of Shadows. Maybe it should be added to both MI and WK and provide MI some other paragon unique ability.
Ironically I don't even use ITC. But somehow I don't try to make it as a superior success over people that use.
Point out; nowhere in the patch notes was this specified to be an intended nerf. I read through many of the changes and suspiciously similar, the HR Plant Growth had some clunkiness issue after the fact. The devs shortly admitted that it was a bug and will be looked at soon. Should you decide that's a better use of your energy...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/categories/neverwinterpreview-feedback-general-discussion
So ya, links, they're a thing.
I actually do not use ITC, but others have very high ping, or can't dodge in time or use it as part of a buff build, 'random' changes like this break a lot of things.
Well to be strictly honest with you, I do use ITC. In PvP, it's useful. In PvE, it's usefulness depends on the situation. But I'm not attached to it as much and the changes, if intended though chances are it's probably not, did not kill the PvE TR. It's been dead a long time, and you guys are just clinging like ghosts, which deserves some applaud. And yes, that's a hint, but this time for the devs. You would think the walls are listening but...
And I am too lazy to do long term math curves with your dps, there's too many variables, I'll just clarify that the 5% is the flat out conversion from 2000 power, the 10% of the 20k power sample rating. Press the Advantage adds 5% to the many damage modifiers you might be stacking, towards a sum of, i really shouldn't bore everyone with the math.
Lastly, just to copy paste what blur said, Smoke Bomb/Lashing/Dazing/Wicked Reminder are my go-to. There used to be a space for a not-so-hard kept secret of spamming Blade Fury, but that went down the drain with the Lostmauth set nerf.
I'm also in a highly enough ranked guild that just with the power & LS boon, a new player should've have an issue.
The problem is exactly how we got how TR looks, it's another skill that just became even less useful, and it more or less bypassed everyone.
I actually didn't post anything until I saw TRs post in the spirit of "I don't use it, so it should be removed". I can understand asking for changes, balance, PvP issues, but not the "It's a crouch" lets remove it with some assumption for future damage buff that is still arriving for now 6 mods. While some players rely on it, and mostly in the less geared or with higher ping, etc... IMO, this "turn the other cheek" due to all the PvP based reworks is what brought us so far.
For the math, if someone interested:
Press the advantage is 10% of all power (buffs included, unlike shadowborn. Confirmed recently by sirjimbofrancis)
So with a general damage equation:
(weapon + level_base) * ability_score * skill_modifier * (1 + power/40000) * (1 + I[crit](0.75 + crit_severity) + I[ca]( 0.15 + ca_stat + ca_companions + ca_ability) * companion_buffs * ( 1 - max(enemy_dr - fArP,0)) * external_buffAnd probably something I forgot.Because we 'test' only one thing we can assume all the rest is static (only difference is Press the advatage)
so we simplify to:
(1 + power/40000) vs (1 + power*1.1/40000)meaning, in percents:
(1 + power*1.1/40000) / (1 + power/40000) * 100For 20k power it will be 103.33 -> 3.3% increase.
For 120k 7.5% and so on.
In PvE sitting at about 150k is more or less average. Either self buffs like WW and shadowborn or group buffs like DC.
link to wolfram
The problem with ITC as self buff is the very short duration, IMO, it makes sense only as activating on the 10th stack of DF, to get the benefit from all the bleed ticks and future SoDs.
I personally can't time it correctly reliably, especially with the DF stacks are random so the 10th can be on the end of the second DF or at the beginning of the third. The new change makes it completely impossible, because activating ITC during DF...
Some use it as a buff before smoke bomb before a large group of mobs, significantly easier to do, and after whirlwind with enough power to make it an actual increase.
Yes, this wont kill PvE TR, it's just one more thing added to the useless list. The problem is that list is very long, and the usefull things list becomes shorter and shorter.
Then this little misunderstanding with crutch, since I said it too, why don't ya let me take it back on behalf of the rest of us. Perhaps it's a stronger word to some, though between morenthar and I, it's more of an inside joke... or I could never know! Hah! But me saying crutch doesn't mean anyone is bad.. it's a legit power allowed into the game by the devs and you are perfectly fine to use it.
To the ones who need it the most for survival, this discussion about Press the Advantage actually makes little sense because this squeezing-every-last-ounce-of-dps on a 2.5k TR... it doesn't keep them alive at all.
I sure still hope that it's a bug, and over that, a complete overhaul is necessary for this class.
That being said, the more number of tools that loose viability for us, the more and more similar our builds are going to start looking. That's not a good thing for people who like to think "outside the box". On that, I think we can all agree. Plus, we tend to think in terms of endgame content, because that is where we spend all our time. However, there are a lot of people trying to give the TR class a shot, and, for a class that is, perhaps, more challenging to master than the average, to put one of the only defensive powers we have at a disadvantage, is probably also not a good thing.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
November 8
Thanks again for all the feedback, folks.
I can't currently give an expected timeline for future fixes to things Infantile Compensation procs off of. I believe the current plan is to address other cases where the power rapidly procs.
The unexpected / undocumented change to HR Plant Growth was added to our internal issue tracking the other day, and I'll ask folks to take a look at the ITC change too. Appreciated.
And, I JUST finished a blog post about how I wasn't going to really use ITC anymore...
T_T
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
yeah, it crossed my mind when I did some testing with the new weapons on preview.. my only issue is, no matter how I try to pay attention the defense bonus is the one that almost always proc.. unless you can count the weapons cd in your head, and somehow sync that with your encounter cd, AND somehow also sync that with the random red telegraphs on the floor... it can get a bit too distracting
+we need the dodge as gap closer cause we're melee
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Don't worry it's not for botting..
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog