Tenacity removal

burndownxmas · November 2016

So in a world of piercing damage that completely ignores tenacity, why do we still have tenacity? Currently all tenacity really is doing is proctecting low damage resistance classes by bumping their resistance higher and allowing them to focus on deflect where most of their proctection was supposed to come from anyway. I'd rather see tenacity removed from the game, so we can see armor classes behave a little more like what that armor class should.

kiraskytower · November 2016

Actually what tenacity does is scale down damage designed to be used on PvE monsters with millions of hit points, to a point where players with only 100K or so hit points can handle it. Remove it and we go back to the days when players with enough armor pen and a perfect vorpal ran around one shotting each other. If you have any doubt about this, take off your tenacity gear and go into a match ...

beckylunatic · November 2016

kiraskytower said:
If you have any doubt about this, take off your tenacity gear and go into a match ...

Or be one of those poor souls who begins their post about their PvP experiences with, "I don't have any PvP gear but...."

I tend to think there's a lot of merit to the idea that tenacity should be an environmental condition which is in effect in PvP settings, rather than something the player needs to gear for. I think it would both encourage diversity and make for a less miserable casual PvP experience. Reasonable PvP gear is more accessible than ever, but acquiring it requires deciding to allocate tradebars towards PvP gear and not something else.

I've known a lot of people who stopped PvPing entirely when it became mandatory* to have tenacity gear and not just sometimes queue in for a PvP match in your PvE stuff.

And specialized PvP gear could still exist and be something to aim for, but based on having different set bonuses from PvE equipment. I do like the idea of more things like "increase movement rate when flagged for PvP".

*Because I know people who are too smart to set themselves up for the miserable experience described in my first sentence.

burndownxmas · November 2016

And what good does that scale down do when it is completely ignored? I might as well just wear my pve gear least then i'd probably get more HP out of it. Also the one shot epidemic you speak of could easily be averted by adjusting health values or damage values upon entering PvP, look at ESO and the way they run PvP they have it you run in with a 4k HP character suddenly you have 50k plus HP; they adjust the values of your resource pool to be able to handle the high damage out put.

beckylunatic · November 2016

I could be misremembering, but I don't think NW had such a thing as piercing damage when tenacity was first implemented. But most players tend to view the piercing damage as the abhorrent thing that ought to be removed, whereas tenacity should be... re-evaluated, more like.

burndownxmas · November 2016

Believe it or not I'm pro keeping piercing around, I just don't see the point in tenacity if we are going to. Well let's entertain that idea; how would you reevaluate tenacity?

kiraskytower · November 2016

beckylunatic said:
I could be misremembering, but I don't think NW had such a thing as piercing damage when tenacity was first implemented. But most players tend to view the piercing damage as the abhorrent thing that ought to be removed, whereas tenacity should be... re-evaluated, more like.

Things like shocking executioner (which ignores defenses) have been around long before Tenacity gear, but piercing damage/defense ignoring attacks were a lot less common back then. It's been true for a while that some of these should be looked at as there is no way for some classes to dodge them (SW, GWF, GF, OP).

However ... like Becky said, the problem is more the piercing damage and not tenacity. Without Tenacity boosting your defense and nerfing the enemy's armor penetration ALL damage will go through your defense if the enemy has enough armor pen (which can still happen now, it just takes a lot more armor pen to do it).

beckylunatic · November 2016

burndownxmas#7201 said:
Well let's entertain that idea; how would you reevaluate tenacity?

I already said, by making it an environmental condition, not a gear stat.

burndownxmas · November 2016

So what was it like pre tenacity then? Did all the damage just go through and everyone was on a one-shot-athon?

beckylunatic · November 2016

Tenacity was introduced to try to tone down one-shots and level the playing field, but consider the sheer amount of power creep dumped into the game over time.

Boons, all the stuff with mounts, artifacts, a bazillion ways of amping up AP gain, crazy self-heals (aka. "why we had to make regeneration not work in combat")....

When companion active bonuses were added to the game, players were worried this would wreck PvP and breathed easier when assured that companions wouldn't work there... then the devs made PvP where companions would work but insisted it would be fine ("interesting"). Blacksmiths and Renegade Evokers and Cockatrices, oh my.

I think tenacity can be somewhat blamed for putting more of a crowbar of separation between PvE and PvP players, as it removed a lot of people who would PvP for a change of pace from the queues as they became less able to survive in a match sufficiently to contribute, and didn't care enough to obtain or maintain a second set of equipment. They just dropped the activity (frees up time for all that PvE grinding anyway). PvP players can adequately manage PvE content without changing even though it isn't optimal (unless they really want to), but the reverse is not true, and that's largely because of tenacity.

The fewer players there are in the PvP queue, the worse everything is.

Edit: It probably also matters to remember what kind of changes we've had made to our hitpoint pools because of gear. I looked up a module 3 PvP-TR build by Rustlord which had an astonishing 40k hitpoints (46k with augment).

santralafax · December 2016

kiraskytower said:

beckylunatic said:
I could be misremembering, but I don't think NW had such a thing as piercing damage when tenacity was first implemented. But most players tend to view the piercing damage as the abhorrent thing that ought to be removed, whereas tenacity should be... re-evaluated, more like.
Things like shocking executioner (which ignores defenses) have been around long before Tenacity gear, but piercing damage/defense ignoring attacks were a lot less common back then. It's been true for a while that some of these should be looked at as there is no way for some classes to dodge them (SW, GWF, GF, OP).

However ... like Becky said, the problem is more the piercing damage and not tenacity. Without Tenacity boosting your defense and nerfing the enemy's armor penetration ALL damage will go through your defense if the enemy has enough armor pen (which can still happen now, it just takes a lot more armor pen to do it).

It also makes stacking crit useless, creating additional divide between PVE and PVP builds.

burndownxmas · December 2016

As you say though tenacity has put a nice gap between pve and PvP players, to level the playing field removal of tenacity would be a great start, following that would be implementing special offensive reductions or increases in HP pools to level out the high damage output we now have when flagging for PvP only. If this still proves ineffective the removal of boons from PvP outside of PvP specific ones would also vastly help tone down the crazy amounts of power creep. I say again now tenacity does little outside of allowing low defensive classes to gain equivalent damage resistance to high damage resistance classes unless extreme degrees of armor penetration can be achieved only then will high damage resistance classes still have superior resistance against those with lesser resistance, it should be removed so armor classes behave accordingly and enact specific modifications to adjust HP or damage output that is equal for all without damaging the mechanics behind a class

burndownxmas · December 2016

null
Makes control support classes suffer as well, largely impacts most classes without the special mechanics to ignore it all

demonmonger · December 2016

If you want to remove tenacity (won't happen) then all pvp gear should gain 75% more stats in all areas to be up to par with pve gear..

Just saying..

burndownxmas · December 2016

75 percent sounds a bit over the top, but that would be cool if they made it the other side specs of classes, IE most PVE gear on GWFs do not have life steal but the PvP gear does so we can variety up the builds and how we fundamentally want our classes to function.

santralafax · December 2016

demonmonger said:
If you want to remove tenacity (won't happen) then all pvp gear should gain 75% more stats in all areas to be up to par with pve gear..

Just saying..

Sure. You pointed it out.

Tenacity removal

Comments