darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
edited November 2016
AA is a problem and will be fixed, but other thing that is causing problems since long time ago, is the debuffs. I remember the times when CN runs were 4 CWs and the boss died in seconds because of ray of enfeeblement.
They changed the power so more CWs didnt stack the same debuff and encourage the class variety. I dont know why they didnt change other class powers like DC debuffs in the same way (or buffs). Actually is better to run with 1 DPS, 3DCs, 1 tank setup than 3DPS, 1DC, 1 tank. The problem is that DCs are less abundant than DPSs. We should have an universal criteria about how things (powers, feats, enchants, etc.) work in order to balance things.
Now they balance things adding 1 shots to bosses and tons of HPs. Thats the wrong path.
Thats wrong. The buffs of the DCs (e.g BTS, FF, AA...) dont stack with themselfes. When taking 2 DCs into your Party u want them to use different buffs. So for example 1 DC(AC) uses BTS, EXA, AA as buffs and the other one (DO in best case) uses FF, POD, and HG. U see its not the stacking with itself but the amount of different buffs a DC can offer to your party. (Btw its best to take 1 DC in your party atm)
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
@rapo: the best DC of my guild told me that even if they'll fix AA there are still ways to do the same and I trust him (I'm ignorant when it comes to DCs).
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
@diogene0 as summary of your ideas, you're saying that an end-game experienced player can take benefit of a number of powers that trivialize the game and the end-game content in particular, even without important investments. AA is one of the evidences of this because many DCs can cast it at high frequency. I see this from the opposite perspective: given that I can cast AA every 5 seconds, please implement a content where my ability is challenged. Instead of downgrading the abilities of the toons towards an anonymous flatness, upgrade the quality of the contents. From this point of view, I think that SVA goes in the right direction. Forget for a moment that AA is bugged currently and, due to this, the consequence is the following:
Yesterday I started to see another chapter of this.... I was at Svardborg (epic) and some parties are starting to burn the boss. I was told to forget the runes and just use the following setup.
He was told to forget the runes and maybe he doesn't know why he can forget them at the moment. The mechanic of SVA is interesting and well done: when the AA bug is fixed, forgetting the runes will be impossibile, perma sitting on a iced area will be impossibile, AA will expire in milliseconds due to the high intensity of the everfrost damage under certain conditions, recharging AA is currently more difficult as the DCs are the primary targets of the ice spikes from Storvald, the "move-away" mechanic spreads the team around and finally the mechanic cannot be ignored. In few words, the "trivialization process" is on both ends (toon vs content) and it often shows up as a chicken-egg problem. Imo SVA is the proof that a good mechanic can make your game experience challenging regardless how strong you are. Even today, with AA bugged, I see many 4k groups failing mSVA because they ignore all the mechanics. Unfortunately AA is bugged since the release of SoMI so there's no evidence of what I'm saying, but I'm sure that all experienced DCs, you included, are aware of what it's going to happen in mSVA when the AA bug is fixed. AA will be an important feature to complete the dungeon successfully, but not to the point to trivialize the game content. All the contents should be designed to reach such level of balance.
No this isn't realistic. What you're asking for is that all content is scaled to match the power of anointed army. That's not going to work. Not all teams should be forced to pick clerics. Then, it would require to redesign all of the content and all of the classes around the new standard. This is not going to happen. It's not just anointed army. There are many problematic powers on that matter, but I agree that AA is the most emblematic one. By the way, fixed or not, AA will still let us ignore any game mechanic the devs throw at us until all immunities are reworked entirely.
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
@tom: the same buff may not stack but there are currently (I'm using michela123's debuff spreadsheet as reference) 78 different debuffs than can be stacked one on top of each other. Obviously you can't have them all at the same time but I guess that gives the idea.
And those are only debuffs. Then you have buffs... Over time the game lost the original D&D 4e focus on control (in the form of both control and aggro management) and positioning and started to add a buff/debuff after the other. They reacted increasing the HP pool of monsters instead of addressing the issue....
People spam dailies every 5 seconds, this means AP generation is way too high. I certain conditions my trapper recovers dailies faster than encounters and I'm basically playing an encounter spamming toon. And I've noticed in Svardborg that I don't even need to use Switfness of the Fox, due to something (paladins, dcs, gfs, i don't know?) reducing my cooldowns so much that I can spam just one side of my powers (usually the ranged, to keep Longstrider up all time) and change stance only to restart master trapper, if I want.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
@gabrieldourden u are right the amount of buffs and debuffs going arround atm is really crazy. I just wanted to point out that the problem is not the stacking of buffs with themself but rather, as you said, that there are so many different buffs and debuffs arround atm. Also the fact that buffs are calculated multiplicative and not additiv is a huge factor. We took advantage of that in our speedruns too (gf op mof dc sw combo is absurd when it comes to buff debuff).
Btw u still have mikis spreadsheet? would be cool if you could send it to me since she and sharp deleted all their sheets.
@gabrieldourden u are right the amount of buffs and debuffs going arround atm is really crazy. I just wanted to point out that the problem is not the stacking of buffs with themself but rather, as you said, that there are so many different buffs and debuffs arround atm. Also the fact that buffs are calculated multiplicative and not additiv is a huge factor. We took advantage of that in our speedruns too (gf op mof dc sw combo is absurd when it comes to buff debuff).
Btw u still have mikis spreadsheet? would be cool if you could send it to me since she and sharp deleted all their sheets.
Buff mechanics are an entirely separate issue cryptic will have to address in due time, because it contributes to trivializing content balanced around very low buff levels. But the damage and control immunity powers do is much greater currently, because there is no game mechanic that can't be ignored due to that.
@gabrieldourden u are right the amount of buffs and debuffs going arround atm is really crazy. I just wanted to point out that the problem is not the stacking of buffs with themself but rather, as you said, that there are so many different buffs and debuffs arround atm. Also the fact that buffs are calculated multiplicative and not additiv is a huge factor. We took advantage of that in our speedruns too (gf op mof dc sw combo is absurd when it comes to buff debuff).
Btw u still have mikis spreadsheet? would be cool if you could send it to me since she and sharp deleted all their sheets.
Buff mechanics are an entirely separate issue cryptic will have to address in due time, because it contributes to trivializing content balanced around very low buff levels. But the damage and control immunity powers do is much greater currently, because there is no game mechanic that can't be ignored due to that.
sure there is. U were talking about call of winter for example. guess what. there are partys out there who kill both storvald and druffi so fast they dont even cast call of winter
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
@gabrieldourden u are right the amount of buffs and debuffs going arround atm is really crazy. I just wanted to point out that the problem is not the stacking of buffs with themself but rather, as you said, that there are so many different buffs and debuffs arround atm. Also the fact that buffs are calculated multiplicative and not additiv is a huge factor. We took advantage of that in our speedruns too (gf op mof dc sw combo is absurd when it comes to buff debuff).
Btw u still have mikis spreadsheet? would be cool if you could send it to me since she and sharp deleted all their sheets.
Buff mechanics are an entirely separate issue cryptic will have to address in due time, because it contributes to trivializing content balanced around very low buff levels. But the damage and control immunity powers do is much greater currently, because there is no game mechanic that can't be ignored due to that.
sure there is. U were talking about call of winter for example. guess what. there are partys out there who kill both storvald and druffi so fast they dont even cast call of winter
I saw that yesterday too in Svardborg. In the fastest run Storvald never got a chance to use the runes attack.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
@diogene0 I'm not asking to scale ALL content. I'm asking for progression. I expect that the future contents will have tricky mechanics that cannot be trivialized by this or that power/feats, but require team coordination, right timing and secondary tasks that are not just "burn the boss". Covering the runes, move away from the boss, free other team mates require a coreography to be performed otherwise there's a risk that you fail. At the end this what we're talking about: we don't want trivial contents and Sva goes in that direction for the number of things you have to think about when you run it. Currently many mechanics of the raid are trivialized by a bug. The class balance must be done for sure but taking into account the contents they want to deliver for the future. Concerning the "not all team should be forced to have a dc", I agree with you ideally. Unfortunately you can rework all the powers that you want but at the end a "best team composition" emerges between many options and all the players stick with it (more or less). So you're moving the problem but you're not solving it.
@gabrieldourden. I trust your DC and for sure there are ways to do it. That's not the point. The point is how trivial it is, because we all want to be challenged.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Comments
They changed the power so more CWs didnt stack the same debuff and encourage the class variety. I dont know why they didnt change other class powers like DC debuffs in the same way (or buffs). Actually is better to run with 1 DPS, 3DCs, 1 tank setup than 3DPS, 1DC, 1 tank. The problem is that DCs are less abundant than DPSs. We should have an universal criteria about how things (powers, feats, enchants, etc.) work in order to balance things.
Now they balance things adding 1 shots to bosses and tons of HPs. Thats the wrong path.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Thats wrong. The buffs of the DCs (e.g
BTS, FF, AA...) dont stack with themselfes.
When taking 2 DCs into your Party u want them to use different buffs. So for example 1 DC(AC) uses BTS, EXA, AA as buffs and the other one (DO in best case) uses FF, POD, and HG. U see its not the stacking with itself but the amount of different buffs a DC can offer to your party. (Btw its best to take 1 DC in your party atm)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
And those are only debuffs. Then you have buffs...
Over time the game lost the original D&D 4e focus on control (in the form of both control and aggro management) and positioning and started to add a buff/debuff after the other. They reacted increasing the HP pool of monsters instead of addressing the issue....
People spam dailies every 5 seconds, this means AP generation is way too high. I certain conditions my trapper recovers dailies faster than encounters and I'm basically playing an encounter spamming toon. And I've noticed in Svardborg that I don't even need to use Switfness of the Fox, due to something (paladins, dcs, gfs, i don't know?) reducing my cooldowns so much that I can spam just one side of my powers (usually the ranged, to keep Longstrider up all time) and change stance only to restart master trapper, if I want.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Btw u still have mikis spreadsheet? would be cool if you could send it to me since she and sharp deleted all their sheets.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I'm not asking to scale ALL content. I'm asking for progression.
I expect that the future contents will have tricky mechanics that cannot be trivialized by this or that power/feats, but require team coordination, right timing and secondary tasks that are not just "burn the boss". Covering the runes, move away from the boss, free other team mates require a coreography to be performed otherwise there's a risk that you fail.
At the end this what we're talking about: we don't want trivial contents and Sva goes in that direction for the number of things you have to think about when you run it. Currently many mechanics of the raid are trivialized by a bug.
The class balance must be done for sure but taking into account the contents they want to deliver for the future.
Concerning the "not all team should be forced to have a dc", I agree with you ideally. Unfortunately you can rework all the powers that you want but at the end a "best team composition" emerges between many options and all the players stick with it (more or less). So you're moving the problem but you're not solving it.
@gabrieldourden.
I trust your DC and for sure there are ways to do it. That's not the point. The point is how trivial it is, because we all want to be challenged.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF