No one in tr section talking about itc, nerf

demonmonger · November 2016

Why is no one talking about the itc changes that just happened?

blur · November 2016

What was changed?

rjc9000 · November 2016

I suck at playing/using TRs, but from what I recall my guild-leader (@micky1p00) saying...

Is that ITC can no longer be activated whenever you want, ie, you need to stop attacking, press ITC, and then continue on your merry way.

(Until a more experienced TR confirms this to be true, take my statement with a grain of salt)

demonmonger · November 2016

It's true.. you don't have to stop attacking... it forces your at Wills to pause while casting. You can't cast it a's fluid as before. It resets combo counters, it sits in queque if pressed right after a long casting encounter or at will.

It's HAMSTER... you can't cast it in flurry anymore

Unknown · November 2016

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demonmonger · November 2016

Revert back or face nerverwinter wikileaks

rustlord · November 2016

It's a cover up non-fix for the long time issue where sometimes ITC bugs when you're doing stuff, i.e. dodging getting proned. Now you will be using (casting) it less, it will bug less. GG

demonmonger · November 2016

Still bugs.. because getting hit while casting is what makes it bug...

asmodeus6 · November 2016

I thought it was lag, or my timing being off.

This is cute.

Unknown · November 2016

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rustlord · November 2016

morenthar said:
I'm more disappointed that the power wasn't removed entirely. Making it clunky isn't the answer. MIs need a CC breaker that is useful but without granting an insane immunity window.

For those of you that have insisted on relying on the crutch, adapt. I've been playing without it for 2 years. I'm really surprised ItC lasted as long as it did. It's been a serious problem since the beginning, but it's gotten progressively worse in conjunction with the power creep.

ITC is the greener grass somewhere else. But when you're there, it's just grass. What's tragic is most TR can't survive without it. Imagine if we can table *shocking* for another discussion, Whisperknife can reach insane levels of damage resist (72% in my case) set aside the debuffs. The deflect component of ITC pales so much in comparison.

But the one reason it is so popular is accessibility. It's a crutch, but a very cheap one! What, the alternative is to stack this damage resist I'm talking about and pair it with a Mythic Oghma, how many has that kind of research budget :{

rustlord · November 2016

And maybe like me, y'all don't gots the money, ITC is as free as it gets.

asmodeus6 · November 2016

rustlord said:

morenthar said:
I'm more disappointed that the power wasn't removed entirely. Making it clunky isn't the answer. MIs need a CC breaker that is useful but without granting an insane immunity window.

For those of you that have insisted on relying on the crutch, adapt. I've been playing without it for 2 years. I'm really surprised ItC lasted as long as it did. It's been a serious problem since the beginning, but it's gotten progressively worse in conjunction with the power creep.
ITC is the greener grass somewhere else. But when you're there, it's just grass. What's tragic is most TR can't survive without it. Imagine if we can table *shocking* for another discussion, Whisperknife can reach insane levels of damage resist (72% in my case) set aside the debuffs. The deflect component of ITC pales so much in comparison.

But the one reason it is so popular is accessibility. It's a crutch, but a very cheap one! What, the alternative is to stack this damage resist I'm talking about and pair it with a Mythic Oghma, how many has that kind of research budget :{

I think some people forget what it's like to be <2600il as a TR and trying to do any damage at all without being one shotted by everything on the screen. Be a 2k'ish TR in elol when the ceiling decides to make you it's... and you get ping ponged into 4 things and just die. Literally nothing you can do but set the controller down.

Seriously. Take your toys off and go run some things without it. I can't do it. Perhaps your better than me, I've only been at this for a month or so. Around 2.5k il. And without some kind of damage cancel I cannot pump it out without getting smoked. And I still get smoked too. Often.

demonmonger · November 2016

It is perfect because it gives us instant deflection plus cc immunity for a short time. Cc break if under effects of cc.

#stopthenerfs

demonmonger · November 2016

Withought itc, tr class will be forced to go full cc/stealth , one shot SE mode, or max deflection and have poor damage. We will also be forced to max mobility to avoid being hit by attacks and red zones.

For any of you that think it doesn't need to be in game, go fight giants in cold run, without lifesteal, without deflection, and see if you can avoid their boulder smash once you get cc'd.

rustlord · November 2016

If we're talking about nerfs, if you ask me this falls closer to a nerf to DF rather than ITC itself, because during a flurry rotation is where I need it the most. If you've got the means to it, you can stack lifesteal, deflection or other stat to compensate for the loss of ITC -- well if you'd like to go that far. But it also took me 5 minutes to get used to the changes and surprised to find I'm not that crippled by it.

@asmodeus6#2618

That comment was all in the perspective of PvP. On PvE, well, like you said it's a power creep, so while this change to ITC may hurt your dps or your chances to survive, at a very low item level that is already as good as bonkers anyway, sorry.

demonmonger · November 2016

I also used it during my flurry rotation ,mainly because at that moment we are locked in place trying to damage... without it we can be killed or interupted too easily.

demonmonger · November 2016

I would be happy of they removed itc but added 100% dodge during flurry

silver11 · November 2016

they should just give us a free dodge like other classes. maybe some healing mechanic during invisiblity. a shield would be handy too. maybe a class feature that makes us immune to damage... nah nevermind, those sound too op. this change is just another way to appease pvpers without taking into account the damage it does to pve. itc was the one defense trs had. stealth definitely doesnt count, as you can get dead easily with it. im at a high enough level that i dont really need it, but lol at the direction they take when making changes.

asmodeus6 · November 2016

I use it to walk into groups as bait to condense them so my buggy dazing cone lands too. Or like in a WoD invincible heroic where there are 40 adds swarming me and I need to daze the group, or just breathe.

In the end, I can't just dodge roll indefinitely and accomplish nothing. ITC compensates for the TR needing to be in melee range locked in DF to do any appreciable amount of damage.

Let's also mention boss mechanics are typically cheap. So I see it as a level playing field. (Barely)

rustlord · November 2016

demonmonger said:
I would be happy of they removed itc but added 100% dodge during flurry

Sounds like a brilliant idea, but might cause havoc in PvP. I'd settle for something close, like 50% DR or increased deflection.

Unknown · November 2016

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lordseth1985 · November 2016

I was about to post something like that lol

The change is stupid, ItC was our escapist move. now, we have a high deflect severity and only this. But, hey... some people say we are too op on pvp. Who cares? Why focus so much on pvp in a rolepay fantasy game, that should be pve focused???

This change or "fix" should be reverted asap, or at least give a real option on cc immunity, since our only "natural" source of cc resist is via Wis.

Unknown · November 2016

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micky1p00 · November 2016

morenthar said:
Another note, Whisperknives have Veangence's Pursuit. It's a good power. That said, it's supposed to provide a CC break and that hasn't worked properly (really bad) since the power existed.

So that means I've been existing in PvP, quite well considering, without that immunity window and without a CC breaker. The cherry on top is I have no big hitter daily. Hateful Knives got useless after a single glorious mod of brilliance. Once Repel and Smoke Bomb came into serious fashion, it was screwed.

People are trying to tell me that an MI cannot adapt to operate without ITC? I think you all need to get to the Preview server.

Yeah, the fix will be in for SE. But our overall damage will get increased as well.

MI doesn't have Advantageous Position. But they have Skillful Infiltrator.

Lifesteal supplemented with deflection and about 1500 stamina regeneration and you are in business. You'll be killable, as all classes should be, but you'll be highly elusive and currently still lethal with SE and still lethal after it is changed and our damage increased.

1. What preview? Preview matches live now.

2. What fix for SE, and what damage increase ? Either I'm missing something or you suddenly became prophetic ? (I have no idea what is worse though). The only class rework that was mentioned was DC in a stream. I can't give less hamsters about SE, but what it has to do with ITC. ITC is on live, SE change is imaginary ?!

3. Can you please separate PvP and PvE... In PvE ITC used by either people who don't have 2k stats in deflect and 6k stats in LS. or people who use it as self buff with push the advantage. In PvP, it's, probably, only important for the whole 20 people who PvP?

Please think a bit outside of your own build, I don't use ITC either, but it doesn't mean it needs to be removed. I can't understand people suggesting changes that will work in PvP and PvE (at least to their opinion), but I don't see how you just suggest to remove a widely used skill just because you don't use it.
Want to make the class more glass, no problem, I'm all for it, give the cannon as a trade. It's high risk being melee, I want the high reward too. Or at least to match GWF, Trapper, etc...

demonmonger · November 2016

Next they will be nerfing, deflection for tr, then DR for tr.... just remember this day.

Instead of being united tr.. we are divided tr.

What happens if they nerf lifesteal?

Unknown · November 2016

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micky1p00 · November 2016

I can see SE nerfed to the ground, but where is that new damage comes from, I don't know, especially when so far every single official mention about the TR was "We think it's in a good place right now". I hope you are right, but please remember that TR last rework was at mod 5, with the added feats at mod 6 and the change to SoD. Almost what ?! 2 years ago or a year and a half ?! and it was interesting....
I don't see any simple damage buffs just coming TR way.. (and I don't count the weapons change for that)

About ITC, necessary, perhaps not, as I said in my rotation I don't use it, but you think in PvP concepts or "content is easy, so we don't *need* anything there". Now think in fastest FBI run you can make. Think the maximum efficiency you can get. Think in 'competitive' terms, and it's not a crouch, but another tool that squeezes a bit more dps for specific builds.

Also, do not forget about those who have above 300-350 ping or not 16 years old players with lightning reactions (for example). They can't just dodge, for those it's a fundamental tool, to keep enjoying the class and keep on surviving. In this case call it a crouch if it helps you, imo, it's a bit condescending.. but it needs to stay or something similar.. If it's such a problem in PvP advocate to separate it's effect, it's about time that it's done for plenty of skills. But not removal because it's inconvenient for a minority.

demonmonger · November 2016

I was with you and rustlord from the start, I know what you say is true. I was one of the few players that tested builds with you since the dawn of time. I have much respect for you both, and banelorne fallbanner. He showed me the ways of permanent stealth.

I a kin to you still play outside the box with mobility of 14000 and lifesteal 7000. I am more like a raptor than anything.

Tr class will prevail, and we will continue to make better builds.

I am still unhappy about the itc change.

Unknown · November 2016

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rustlord · November 2016

#300ping here playing on the living room flatscreen with all the distraction that entails, often at 5-10 fps thanks to the 42 inch AND ABLE TO DODGE @micky1p00 :P

@demonmonger @morenthar Yeah banelorne fallbanner was one of the greats. TR has a long history of nerfs, and behind all that a few diligent guys who'd come up with these crazy stuff that ends up becoming the next big thing.

***

All things considered, I did say ITC was an economic crutch. But remember this is a multifaceted power that touches nearly all aspects of the game. So lets not get references confused.

Just mark arguments for PvE, PvP, lowend and highend accordingly.

So PvP, I've spoken my mind, scroll up some.

For PvE, on the low end spectrum, I'm definitely with you guys who rely on ITC to survive. What you can do is pay more attention to your party composition, making sure there is always a tank or a healer or both. Astral Shield + Hallowed Ground mitigation is often enough to keep you alive in boss fights while lifesteal or potion helps you recover. It's a matter of communicating clearly with your team how they can help you survive.

Now for the PvE highend, if you absolutely know what you're doing, and I have faith you do, you realize that a better crutch for your situation is a legendary companion on 3x bonding rank 12s. You are not using ITC for ITC, but for Press the Advantage.

micky1p00 said:
Now think in fastest FBI run you can make. Think the maximum efficiency you can get... (ITC) ...squeezes a bit more dps for specific builds.

Just want to remind you all Press the Advantage is a T2 scoundrel feat, in order to get it you are essentially investing 10 feat points in a single 5% damage increase (on a 20K power rating). Even the saboteur tier 1 could account for that loss in a scenario where you use ITC to buff your duelist flurry. You don't take Press the Advantage without making sacrifices from the executioner tree either, so while we're talking about "maximum efficiency" I'd like to offer you this link to ACT and Preview;

http://www.arcgames.com/en/my/character/copy/nw
https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin

On a really BiS spectrum, wouldn't your party benefit more from unslotting ITC for Wicked Reminder, while taking 10pts worth of executioner feats instead?

GLHF

(Edit: AS doesn't heal; afterthought on WR)

No one in tr section talking about itc, nerf

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