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Open Letter to Cryptic



  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    I blame the company, not the players. This company has mismanaged everything about the game.. I would say they are working on fixing it, but we all know they are not.. its the same old HAMSTER.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    I think @magenubbie was making that point. Cryptic screwed up by even presenting players with such avenues of power gain. And they're continuing to mess up with how they're launching content now. It's Cryptic's mistake, but unfortunately a trap players fell into.

    I'm just happy that is seems like the guys who thought linear power curves were a good idea aren't with the game anymore.

    No one's disagreeing that improving the power of one's character is paramount to enjoyment in an MMO. But when the game's thrown the power curve so out of whack that you have one top geared character able to put out more firepower than a group of averaged gear players, things go to heck in a hand basket pretty dang quick.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,446 Arc User
    I brought up the linear progression earlier and I feel that there are 2 important points. One, that is this is entirety Cryptic's fault and that two, any attempt to correct this would lead to a repeat of what I understand happened in Mod 6, but this time would just sink the game. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease and I doubt the studio would risk that a second time.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • uptondarkdiamonduptondarkdiamond Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 169 Arc User
    To be honest I never really thought about how a linear progression could effect the game, but here we are. I think now that is one of the reasons I ran around in Mod 1 through 5 with rank 5-6 enchants and sub par gear, with a sub par spec and still enjoy all the content that neverwinter had to offer.

    From taking three character from 2.5k to 3.4k(ish) I can tell you there is a world of difference there. My main is at 3.9k which again is a world of difference from 3.5k. Getting my main and 2 alts this high didn't happen over night.

    So i agree things can go to heck in a had basket....
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    My biggest issue is how the hardest content in the game is now not rewarding. At. All.

    Dungeons with the key changes basically equal investing your time into running something, with the reward being the ability to gamble for a piece of loot.

    In no game I have ever played, have you had to work to have the ability to gamble.

    This is literally worse than casinos.

    You can say whatever you like, dungeons should give more back then you invest into them, why? Because you investing time into them, with the expectation that time turns into something worthwhile. If you aren't rewarded for what you do, it removes all sense of achievement, other than personal achievement. Is personal achievement nice? Yes, I do some stuff in this game solely for the sake of personal achievement. However, I don't do that stuff over and over and over again. You do something for personal achievement once or twice, to say you have done it, you have improved, you don't keep doing it.

    You should not have to pay for your loot and the idea that some people defend the premise that you should boggles my mind.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    I brought up the linear progression earlier and I feel that there are 2 important points. One, that is this is entirety Cryptic's fault and that two, any attempt to correct this would lead to a repeat of what I understand happened in Mod 6, but this time would just sink the game. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease and I doubt the studio would risk that a second time.

    I don't think so. If you bent the power curves so that it didn't affect players in the 2500ish range, started to diminish around 3000, then started to more sharply diminish around 3500-4000, you'd minimize the impact to the total playerbase, while helping to rope in a lot of runaway power at the top.

    You'd also give players more reasons to diversify their stats beyond just one or two key stats for each class.

    The stat curves from 1-5 provided a much more robust experience that the lack of curves in 6-10. Yeah, you'll get your typical pitchforks and feathers from the usual crowd if you announced that change, but it would be far, far better for the long-term health of the game.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User

    They require more or less 3 months to present us with 1 month worth of reasonable content. So the refining grind must continue. If it did not, there would be no reason for people to play the game. People would log on 3 months a year, play the current mod, claim the rewards and then tickle some other hamster until the next mod drops.

    This goes back to my original post here. Honestly, I don't see a problem with them giving the players 1 month worth of stellar content every 3 months. This game would be far more popular and profitable if everyone who's ever tried it came back once a quarter to consume content before diddling another hamster.

    It's better for players to have the opinion of "Wow, Neverwinter tells such great stories in their content updates...I just wish there was more!" than to have players complaining that the new content is a "grinding, soulless hamsterfest that punishes the casual player."

    And with that, Cryptic could structure rewards such that players who decided to stick around to grind for another 60 days would be rewarded, too.

    People who play for just 30 days: Get the entire story and most of the epic gear. This should leave them in good shape to qualify for the next module worth of content.

    People who continue to play casually for 90 days: Get the story, the epic gear and make good progress towards a legendary item or two. They'll be well-equipped to start the challenges in the next module.

    People who grind out every day for the entire 90 day cycle: Get the story, all the best gear the module has to offer. A head of the curve for the next modules content (meaning they can probably skip earlier upgrades and focus more on grinding for "the best" stuff).

    The Underdark was a great example of how they could've laid stuff out. Just here for the story players (30 days +/-) end up doing the content, maybe repeating it a few times, end up with a few gear upgrades. Players who are in for most of the module end up getting a nice set of epic upgrades, with maybe a Legendary MH/OH or ring. Players who grind the entire time are rewarded with all the new gear as well as a couple shiny Legendary rings for their efforts.

    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    we were promised that year of 2016 to be year of rework including quality of life things. we are almost at November, some horrible things were separately fixed, when it collide with new things, but nothing else really happened. Game is at worse state then at January, communication with Cryptic is no better. Player base is smaller then ever and almost completely frustrated. What is the ultimate solution for pvp Cryptic? You should already figure out it ...
  • uptondarkdiamonduptondarkdiamond Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 169 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    The 30 day thing also make it easier if you like playing alts, which I do. I agree that underdark had a very good setup, other than the fact that I have grinded it and only have twisted weapons and some +4 rings to show for it. RnG must not like me because I have not see a single +5 ring in that time. My wife just her first one last week (FBI version), it was a defensive one for her CW, those ring are BoC... So even if RnG favors you with a super rare drop chances are that you will not be able to use it.

    I dont expect to have the same level for my alts as my main but i do like being able to play all content with them while learning what it means to be a tank, a healer, or a dps for all available content. Some modules like underdark make running alts through the content smoother. Other modules, like this current one, make running alts through it tedious and time consuming, thus losing the overall fun aspect of my entertainment.

    This same thing happens every where in the game, for my paladin I have seen the same 3 sets of boots drop from the Bryn Shander HE's, but they are not for my build (i.e. i'm getting the tank boots instead of the heal boots). So many things (RnG, time consumption, a box with in a box) currently make this game frustrating because of so many different grindy paths....

    just saying
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User

    This will definitely attract a different crowd of people, sure. But DnD has been around for over 30 years now and is still going strong. Players are very loyal to the game and even teach it to their kids. DnD players want those stories. It's not the progression itself that matters. That comes soon enough. It's how you progress that's important. That's what DnD is all about. Why acquire an official license if you're not going to stay true to the game? You'll only end up disappointing people like Cryptic's doing now.

    @magenubbie You're on fire!

    Completely agree, again. Progression of gear and equipment is there to provide a mechanism for moving characters into more challenging and exciting stories.

    I want Neverwinter to stand out from the MMO crowd by being the game people play for the stories, and for the game itself. A game that offers gear progression, but doesn't focus on it. A game that rewards players through exciting encounters and stories, not just a gear treadmill.

    That's what flummoxes me about the transition from Mod 10 to 10b...or really, Mod 10 all together. They were so focused on what the gear progression was going to look like, they even trashed the entire continuity of the story to "achieve" that. It's just...that's just not right in any MMO game, let alone one carrying the D&D badge.

    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
  • karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    I am a tabletop roleplayer and also gamemaster and let me say you this.

    At some point even D&D utterly failed. It was around the last quarter of the 4th Edition where the roleplaying game Pathfinder had higher sells for their products than D&D and Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.6 Edition with an own Storyline and World.
    Tabletop RPGs got strong concurence in the past years.

    But the 5th Edition got a strong grip back. Also not every roleplayer is a HAMSTER Storyteller and wants story. Stop making stuff up. Especially as a gamemaster you need to know the different kinds of roleplayer that exist which basically means you need to know what your player wants.

    There are powergamers, method actors, the lurker and many more. So yes, some roleplayers are playing D&D to level up their character and gain power.

    Thats a reason you need to align your campaign and playstyle with the group or your campaign will fail.
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,611 Arc User

    This will definitely attract a different crowd of people, sure. But DnD has been around for over 30 years now

    Correction: D&D has been around for about 45 years.
  • uptondarkdiamonduptondarkdiamond Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 169 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    So as gamemasters do you think that Cryptic has aligned the Neverwinter campaign with the playstyle of there players or are they missing the mark?

    Albeit, I will agree Cryptic will not be able to make everyone happy but this post and many other point to a fact that a majority of the players are currently unhappy with there gaming experience for one reason or another.

    Quit honestly, it seems as if they are trying to gut the old players because we probably don't invest (RL $) as much into the game as the new player does. Which is there prerogative, but the problem is not so much that I don't want to invest $$ into the game, its just that there is nothing worthwhile without gambling that I want to buy.

    I think that are afraid to put any time/money into stuff like the foundry because they have not found an effective way to translate that into profit. They take the easy route because, as we all know, they can make a quick buck off the new player by selling some shiny that does great stuff (coal wards i'm looking at you). The new player will than quickly realize just how many of that item is needed to upgrade/enhance some aspect of the game and how much it would really cost him/her if they went the zen route. The old players look at that "shiny" and usually say, i'm going to pass, because it is just to much for so little improvement.

    The hardcore and much wiser player just don't have a recognized place in the current scheme of neverwinter. In my humble opinion we are basically unsupported baggage from a bygone era of neverwinter. But, there are lots of these old timers and hardcore players out there finding broken stuff, testing new stuff, and lobby for improvements. Why do they do it? Well if they are like me overall they enjoy the platform upon which neverwinter stands and they enjoy playing in a MMO that for many of them they grew up reading story's about.

    Come on, how many other gamse out there can boast of R.A. Salvatore written quests and Chris Perkins inspired event with him even doing voice overs for??? When the game is at it's best it is the funnest MMO i have played (and i have played quite a few). However, when its at it worst (Mod 6 and the constant removal of stuff) really bad like EQ1 Sullon Zek server bad (which was my introduction to the MMO world)....
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    It's not all or nothing. No one's saying we need to take away loot or character investment or BiS stuff.

    Bu what we're saying is the story should take precedence.

    Take Salvatore's books, for example. He talks about awesome magic items and loot. He spends a lot of time describing fights and battles. But what makes his novels great is how he weaves the strories.

    It's not just about loot.

    It's not just about fighting.

    Those are just two devices he uses to weave amazing stories.

    The framework for most MMOS seems to be: Figure out the Loot -> Figure out what drops it -> Create a story that makes sense.

    Neverwinter can turn that around by first asking: What's our story? Then what is the path the adventure is going to take over the course of that story? And finally, how can we weave in interesting fights and awesome loot to keep them engaged with the story as they walk that path.

    It's clear that Mod 10 started with discussion about the loot first.

    "What's going to be the new gear for Module 10?"
    'Well, we could re-use the empowerment system. Haven't done that in a while."
    "What about new artifact weapons? Great! How are we going to make players grind for those?"

    And then the story haphazardly fell in place around that. The grind was designed first, and the quest fillers were added, etc.

    There's plenty of loot/grinders out there for people to play. Seems to be a nice trend of eastern loot/grinders being imported to the western markets, and looks like there will be no shortage of choices over the next 6 months.

    So if you want a loot/grinder, please, go for it.

    But Neverwinter DOES have the chance to be a different type of MMO if it was just embrace the D&D story-telling roots it's based on.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
  • iandarkswordiandarksword Member Posts: 976 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    We've discussed monetization of the Foundry in that respective section of the forums in the past. Many authors at the time came to the conclusion that the biggest problem with monetization of UGC is that when you are creating, you aren't earning in-game currency. The tips received are no where near enough to replace the AD earned through game play. It would create a burden on an author to both grind AD in-game and create content. Many Foundry authors would have to choose whether to spend AD on their characters or on more assets. Things would most likely end up pay-to-create, where the free-to-play authors would be at a disadvantage to those that bought the up-to-date assets, as players (assuming there would be an incentive to play the content in the first place) would likely play the newer asset quests. There would be a two-tier author system of haves and have nots, rather than an even playing field. I can imagine the prices PWE/Cryptic would charge for premium assets like dragons by looking at their current pricing for premium packs. It would likely drive more of the few remaiming authors away than attract new ones. For something that's been touted as free-to-play from alpha, it sure is getting more and more expensive to get the "Neverwinter experience", and there's been less and less "bang for the buck" each module. I'll step off my soap box, carry on...
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
    Featured Foundry Quest: Whispers of an Ancient Evil [v3] - NW-DQ4WKW6ZG
    Foundry Quest: Harper Chronicles: Blacklake - NW-DCPA4W2Q5
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    Ultimately everything can be boiled down to resources, more specifically dev time. Stories take time to design, probably much more time than designing new gear or grind. You are talking about creating a ton of assets and most of them for one-time use. That's nothing Cryptic can do with the manpower they have. I mean look at the Salvatore quest-line. This was essentially the cornerstone of an entire module, yet players only run through it once.

    Cryptic first and foremost has to keep the game running. We know the studio is not really an innovative leader, they do what the market demands and never take risks. More than that, they have to do what the market demands to present good numbers to PWE. I really believe they are trying to do new things and telling interesting stories with the remaining resources they have, but that's really little.

    The points raised by @thefabricant on dungeons can also be explained that way. I'm no expert in MMOs, but a classic dungeon progression system would require players to run a certain tier of dungeons to be able to master the next tier of dungeons. Since Cryptic does only have time to design enough for a deep multi-tier progression system, dungeons have to be part of a process to get the top prizes.

    What I think might be possible to do is a system similar to what the other developer that's related to thunderstorms has recently done in their Undead themed expansion. If you could enhance the difficulty of dungeons for better loot, you didn't have to design new content. Castle Never with 50% more mobs that deal 50% more damage and have 200% more HP for twice the loot (and chances at the Artifact etc.) when beating it in a certain time? Why not? I think the devs kinda tried to go that route with their Underdark reward tiers, yet failed.​​
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    I think @magenubbie was making that point. Cryptic screwed up by even presenting players with such avenues of power gain. And they're continuing to mess up with how they're launching content now. It's Cryptic's mistake, but unfortunately a trap players fell into.

    Speaking of how things are "introduced" anyone else notice that Neverwinter is launching a new mod where "fishing" is supposed to be an exciting new feature - right about the same time as the Winter Festival where you can...

    You guessed it, go "fishing".

    Pure genius (sarcasm obviously) ~

    I said it before in a different thread but once the developers introduce something into the game whether it be a feature or an item -it should never be modified unless it is to improve the item or feature or it is actually faulty for some explainable reason... (Yeah, I'm not buying the "it's a bug and it's been a bug for several years" thing either)

    They can discontinue an item, even if they reintroduce it exactly as it was, but call it a different name that way people don't wind up feeling like they are being robbed of something they used to have access to - just don't nurf an existing items.

    As for features like the preview on chests of course there will be some modification to features over time, that's inevedable but don't expect people to buy into some contrived excuse like 'It's a bug"... It's insulting to a person of even a mediocre intelligence and critically damages the credibility and reputation of the developers and the game (this thing is blasting off in gaming social media - and not in a good way).

    Anyway when it comes to doing something for the game and the developers doing something for the players -vs- doing to enhance their own financial status (believe it or not both can be done simaltaniously and without fabricating some pretty lame reason or removing content) I think everyone has a much better idea of where the priorities are for the Neverwinter people.

    Here's a thought, perhaps if they didn't continuiously do things like this, they wouldn't need to make so many of these drastic changes to keep the game profitable.

    Oh sure they come out with "new content" by way of modules, but it's really just the same kind of thing, you go to an area and confront bad guys, kill or be killed and repeat - the only difference being the bad guys look a bit different (sometimes) and the landscape looks a bit different (sometimes) with maybe a very minor diversion like "fishing" or a different "artifact" thrown in... 'Yawn!'

    We already have "fishing" during the Winter Festival how much different can this really be?

    "New Artifact"? We only have a very finite number of slots for gear and actual artifacts, some may wish to upgrade their existing stuff with different stuff - but is it really better stuff?

    Thank goodness for the influx of newbies that will have little or no reference as to how things used to be...

    To their benefit even if they are getting ripped off, it is likely they will never know about it and just think that's the way things are supposed to be and the way it always has been - but they'll learn eventually.

    That's my two cents anyway.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    I have not eaten since the announcement of the November 8th changes..

    That hamster is looking better and better eat day (licks lips)

    Skt boons looked good to me so I got them.

    The rest of stk i really don't care for.

    I don't have to do fbi... never did fbi...
    Won't do fbi because the drops are not worth my time.

    I would rather farm xp all day.
    For skill point chance...
    Been 70 forever
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User

    And that's where the problem is. No. A BiS player is not supposed to be able to have such an opinion in the first place. They can be bored with with the lack of content, but not with the lack of challenge. That's where Cryptic went wrong in the first place: Selling more power than the content requires.

    So, as a human being, BiS players may complain all they want about a lack of challenge. But that's not the game's problem. BiS players chose to overgear and be led by Cryptic's lure of easy power for sale. That's their mistake and not an excuse to ignore the majority of the 3k - players that are craving for some real content. 4k IL players have no right to be catered period. They made their own choices to make the content obsolete. They didn't have to buy R12s to enjoy the game. In fact, they only made it bad for themselves. Willingly and knowingly. That sounds perhaps more harsh than intended, but it's the clear truth.

    I disagree with every argument. Sry. You missed one point: In this game there was never a challenge and BIS players claimed for it. Cryptic never made any challenge at all. BIS players never ignored the majority. No BIS player said " screw them. We BIS players want that. No matter what happens to other player". What did we want excactly? We want challenge. Not the challenge to get over 4 k GS. We want challenge with a raid/dungeon where player can show real skills. Dungeons where you cant burn bosses in secounds. Dungoens where you cant get thru in 15 minutes and theese dungeons are "highend content"...No absurd synergies like CS/AA DC etc.

    I remind you of the fix they did after the arp pen bug. This bug fix was necessary but why they decreased the hp too? Check it. Cuzz the "Majority" claims every time when some dungeon are getting a bit harder "thats too hard...we cant farm...its not possible to clear that as a average player ...etc..etc.". So many ppl proofed they are wrong and you can make every dungeon wiht good grp play. So many proofed that you can do every dungeon when you play as a group and use good group play. What the BIS player wants is a well balanced and tough content where you can show skill/movement/good grp play. But look at the game now. I cant see any of it.
    What i want: BIS players AND the "Majority" can play this game together. But its important to satisfy both grps. Not only one.
    And i dont understand why i every time read this argument about " own fault..they dont have to make r12s/mythic stuff...etc" Everyone in a game plays with a goal. Most players i know running dungoens/grind/farm for better gear. If its possible ( you know who made this possible...) to get such gear i dont know anyone who dont wanna have it. Like i said: The solution is not to say "own fault...why did you make r12s etc?". The solution must be a content for everybody. Thats including BIS players too.

  • dravendrow76dravendrow76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 38 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    You missed one point

    sorry spidey but U2.

    thats your/our point of view. You want the challenge. And thats why i mostly stand behind you.
    Most of BIS-Players that i know (you know who im talking about) dont want challenge - they want Elite-Only. Look at all the channels!
    They want Rush/Speedrun/ADs per hour.
    They enjoy burning down bosses in secounds - thats the big goal to use any thing thats available.
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    sorry spidey but U2.

    thats your/our point of view. You want the challenge. And thats why i mostly stand behind you.
    Most of BIS-Players that i know (you know who im talking about) dont want challenge - they want Elite-Only. Look at all the channels!
    They want Rush/Speedrun/ADs per hour.
    They enjoy burning down bosses in secounds - thats the big goal to use any thing thats available.

    Thats true. I know thees ppl too, like this quote:

    Either way, my philosophy (and the philosophy of the players I run with) for team building has managed to get us the fastest clear times on the server. This is a fact.
    And thats not what i mean with challenge. But as i stated in my post: If cryp can bring well balanced endcontent theese "Elite-only" players will leave that game. And tbh i dont care if they leave.

  • lonewolfmk1lonewolfmk1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 137 Arc User
    If Cryptic created good content without the grind (as was the case with mod 0 to 2) every 3-4 months, taking one month to complete) i might even have fun again playing this game. I used to play 4 chars and keept them up to date (save for the enchants). I have a GF, a DC, a TR and a CW. Now there is only the GF left, while making *some* efford to keep the CW up to speed. But really, without the mindless grind i could actually play and enjoy all of the chars instead of just using them for professions.

    Concerning the foundry, i often wondered, why cryptic dosent give the authors the neccessary tools to create dungenons and even whole quest zones complete with mini dungeons etc., then make a contest, where the winner gets his work implemented into the game and a fitting ingame (cool mount, companion, special title, skin, etc.) and outgame reward (cash). Great new content, available for cheap.

    Also the game has become far to complex for my taste. I have the feeling, that even the devs have no longer a clear idea, how all the mechanics that constantly get introduced into the game interact with each other. I have been playing dnd 4th ed for a while, among many other pen and paper rpgs. While they may have hundreds of pages of rules (many of them you will barely ever need), once you have your head wrapped around them, you undestand how the game works and what happens, if you choose one skill over another, for example. I have stopped understanding NW at the latest with mod 6.

    I could give many examples, but just now, i had a PVP with my 4k pvp build GF vs another 4k pvp GF. I couldnt get any damage on him, despiting hitting him several times with the bullcharge, crescendo, flourish, surging strike combo, while the target was marked and itf active (doing maybe 10% damage on him), while we had comparable defensive stats (though he had a negation, but i 12k arpen). He hit me back with bullcharge, griffon wrath and indomitable strenght and he almost one shotted me, 2 times. Now i know that the build he likely used had, if you look at the feats, a bit higher damage output, maybe even up to 20% more, but that still wouldnt explain, why i barely scratched him and he hit back like a jackhammer.

    As stated, i could give many more examples, PVE might even be worse off. And its frustrating. I have been playing this game since its release, i try to keep myself up to date by reading the forum, looking into threads, that try to show and explain the formulars after which this game works (or is supposed to) and i literally still dont understand how this game works. And because this is so, i have no idea what i can do to improve my character. At a high item level any change in gear (artifacts, artifact equipment, enchants, etc.) becomes very expensive. I really wish, they would have just used the 4th ed dnd rules, adapting them for a non turn based gameplay and be done with it. The game would be a lot simpler, but much more understandable (and not only for the players but also for the devs) and i have a feeling, that even the lag problem would go away, because you wouldnt run anymore into ridicilous damage loops and what not.

    And dont get me started about the loot, there is a 54 pages thread, concerning this topic, going right now. Just so much: compare the grind (time) you needed at mod 2 for your BIS gear (with mod 3 the grind started to really take off) to now. Then you will see why this game is the alt unfriendliest mmo i have played yet.

    As it is now Heroes of the Storm gets my money and most of my available gaming time. Easy to get into, but not that easy to master, many different chars, each with several usable builds to choose from, and no grind needed really, except you want to unlock skins and such on your chars, as the char dosent get better with leveling, only its player.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    I come at this as a 30+ year D&D player/GM and somebody whose previous MMO experience was mainly in 2 very different games, City of heroes and RIFT. CoH was a Cryptic game at the start but they sold it which saved the game for several more years. Why was it dying ? because Cryptic took the attitude that "You will play our way, not the way you enjoy" which I see in spades here, and players hated that.

    I have not seen a single positive change to this game in terms of adding to the fun for a long time. My playstyle has been made less fun by pretty much everything that's been done in the last 4 or 5 updates.

    I can't get any of my enchantments upgraded as I can't afford the preservation wards, and when I did buy a stack of 99, I got 3 10% chances to go, the first one taking 86 of them.

    I'm an altoholic (CoH I had 80-90 max level characters out of c 250) and this game was never alt friendly, but SKT takes this to new heights of crassness, the store should be unlocked for the whole account for example. I have 15 characters here, all with purple equipment mainly dragonflight gear.

    Removal of ADs from leadership and invoking hit me hard, I'm bored of the 3 T2s, can't really do CN and eLoL because they're buggy as hell for me, and can't get in to FBI because I need hundreds of thousands of voninsblood as I don't like just concentrating on one character, so am putting 3 through SKT, so how do I earn the ADs needed to upgrade ? I can get the RP through leadership, I just can't afford the MoPs and mainly the pres wards. I could do the lower level dungeons 30 times a day as some do, but that's hardly fun either.

    Paladin changes have left me with no wish to play my pally or AP healer cleric, so that's 2 3K+ characters basically retired with the attendant waste of millions of ADs and RP. I don't wish to learn to play what is essentially now a completely diffferent character at max level.

    Crafting has always been something I've done in any game I've played, mastercrafting in this game is beyond stupid. Get a forgehammer or give up.

    The devs seem to leak information to their friends (or make a killing themselves). Items mysteriously multiply many times in price just before announcements or stuff appearing on the test server, making life impossible for us normal mortals. The one I particularly recall was that just after a 2xRP and gond event there were 40 forgehammers available at 1M each when I'd spent all my ADs. 4 hours later, they'd all gone, and over the next few weeks 2 or 3 people relisted them at 5M. This also happened with the Gateway gear when some people got wind of its removal.

    Quality control is also terrible. You're not going to pick up every bug, but the simple single factor bugs like when they "fixed" the lightning jars rendering the quest impossible to complete are just unprofessional and smack of lack of testing.

    I would also add that pre SKT there were no effects in game that caused me issues. The blizzard in Bryn made me violently ill, and even the turned down version I have a limited tolerance of. My main problem with SKT and thus farming voninsblood is the knockback. The jerky motion of the continued KB makes me feel sick and gives me a headache. It feels like nobody has tested this with less than absolutely perfect connection, or the timings are off on the graphics and what the game thinks is actually going on. I'm constantly being hit by giants charges and rocks when I'm nowhere close to the red areas, and being told I'm prone so can't execute a power when on screen I stood up ages ago. This results in being chain KBd several times without being able to execute a power in between and makes me feel ill.

    Another badly thought out change means my main DPS is utterly uncompetitive. At one point augments and bondings were balanced because your pet was dead much of the time, and the buff didn't last long. Then the way pets ressed changed making bondings just better. Then to take the easy way out of fixing the buggy stacking bonding buffs, something was put in place that meant that bondings were nearly 3 times as good. My main has an augment and I can't afford to switch to bondings as because they're so good, they're now a ludicrous price.

    Too many things are character bound when they should be account bound, for example not being able to move companion upgrade tokens like you can move tradebars around is ridiculous. Also the laziness that means you need 4 or 5 stacks of pres wards because 2 types of seemingly identical unbound ones won't stack.
    Post edited by minotaur2857 on
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited October 2016
    Back before the game launched I got disheartened at hearing a comment in this interview with the then Executive Producer.
    What is D&D if not killing monsters and taking the loot?

    For me loot was always a byplay. I never turn away loot but I could list a dozen aspects about D&D besides taking the loot.
    If you ask me to describe why I love D&D loot is not going to be on the list nor would it be on my list of why I love other RPG's. Do you play The Witcher to kill monsters and take the loot? No. Do you play Skyrim to kill monsters and take the loot? No. Do you play Baldur's Gate to kill monsters and take their loot? NO.

    You might kill monsters and take their loot in every one of those games but that is not the reason why anybody plays those games. At various times during NW's development it seemed like this was the focus of the developers.

    I have three main reasons why I enjoy D&D. Exploration. Interaction. Story.

    None are strongly represented in NW and never have been. It's my main disappointment.
    The game is awesome as far as combat, mechanics and visuals. Maybe not the best but definitely at the top of the list.

    Exploration we have seen reduced module after module. Everything right down to map design is linear now. That's not D&D.

    Interaction? It's hard to care about interaction when there are no consequences for decisions. I can literally just spam click "1" and pick up any quest and be spoon fed every detail to finish it without truly interacting other than in the technical sense of the word. I don't enjoy it but I also don't see a purpose in caring about text which is inconsequential since my "interactions" are an illusion.

    Story kind of goes hand in hand with interactions. I loved the Salvatore quests but seriously there are no choices in any content: he just hid it better. No RPG should be linear and a D&D based game that is linear is shameful. I had seriously hoped that would be resolved by now.

    The game is fun but it is not the game it could or should be. They nailed the combat and the lore and it is one of the better MMO's on the market even with all of it's flaws.

    But it could be so much better if the direction took a massive shift from killing stuff for loot and went more with the core values of D&D and other great RPG's. Have the amazing interactions that The Witcher supplies. Give us the amazing story that Baldu'rs Gate had. Skyrim is a PERFECT example of a game which rewards exploration with loot, story AND interaction.

    This is D&D. It's not supposed to be about killing for loot UNLESS you want it to be.
  • revan06100revan06100 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 205 Arc User

    I think @magenubbie was making that point. Cryptic screwed up by even presenting players with such avenues of power gain. And they're continuing to mess up with how they're launching content now. It's Cryptic's mistake, but unfortunately a trap players fell into.

    Indeed. Cryptic is far from innocent in the matter obviously. But at the same time, players also knew beforehand that said power was not required. Call it a trap, call it players acting like hamsters.. It's still a bad way to manage a game.

    You can say whatever you like, dungeons should give more back then you invest into them, why? Because you investing time into them, with the expectation that time turns into something worthwhile.

    That too is a part of the problem. But it's not that simple. What do you consider rewarding for a 20 min dungeon? How long is "current" content supposed to last? What is the publisher's ability to generate content? Do they favor quality or quantity?
    Ideally, current content should "last" -as in, be gated in such a way that you can have the best rewards for a single character- until the next mod drops. But that's not how Cryptic does things. They add a game-wide grind of refining that never ends and even never can end. Strum once said "what would people be doing if they weren't refining their gear?" That little question sums up the entire problem Cryptic has. Cryptic can't generate content fast enough to keep us busy otherwise. They require more or less 3 months to present us with 1 month worth of reasonable content. So the refining grind must continue. If it did not, there would be no reason for people to play the game. People would log on 3 months a year, play the current mod, claim the rewards and then tickle some other hamster until the next mod drops. That has to change. Either they need to release less but larger mods like most publishers or they need to speed up their creation process.

    I doubt they are able or willing to do either of these. So the downward spiral continues. NW is becoming a game that caters the extreme casuals, enticing them to spend a little on a mount and a few bags and then expects them to make room for the next bunch of players. I'm not an economist, but logic dictates that such a strategy can't last long. Eventually your reputation for using such a strategy will be too well-known for people to spend more than is absolutely required. Proof of that can be seen in the average thread here on the forums. People rather ignore a module than grind for 50h just to enter 1 dungeon where they get nothing worth having. They are certainly not willing to spend money on it.

    You should not have to pay for your loot and the idea that some people defend the premise that you should boggles my mind.

    Agreed. And that too is a clear sign of Cryptic's inability to manage a game. They'd rather let RNGesus dictate progression and sell a second chance on those rolls than taking a firm hand in it and making sure we are doing something worthwhile and improve just fast enough to be ready for the next mod.
    I agree with 99% of what you guys said.
    However, when you talk about content, i have to disagree, we HAD content, we had a dozaines of dungeons they just took away for no valuable reasons.
    How hard is to make these dungeons level 70 with a variety of loots? They have been removed since Mod6, that was almost a year and a half ago ! It's not a problem of time or ressources, it's a problem of game management and politic and what they have decided to proritize since Elemental Evil release.
    Make more dungeons, and you will have more content, the more dungeons you have, the less the players get bored.
    They give us heroics, new maps with stupid new type of everfrost damages we could have litterally easily lived without, new boons, new type of stuff you have to stupidly grind and reload every 2 hours;
    No, i'm sorry, they got the time, they got the ressources, they just don't have the will to do it, or at least, not like we would like them to...

  • karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    Watched it and loled. He said they developing a persistent game world.
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
  • hasantareq88#2333 hasantareq88 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    karakla1 said:

    I will take an indefinite break from your game. One major reason, or as some players say: “The last nail in the coffin”, was indeed the announced dungeon key change. I am probably not the only one that takes a break from the game neither the last one. But I wanted to make this and give you a clue why I am taking a break from you.

    It was not the change itself that made me think about taking another break from your game, it was the approach of it. The approach to say that the current system, which is now something between 1-2 years active is a bug that needed to be fixed because of inequalities.
    A fix that was, if I remember correctly, accidentally fixed 1 or 2 times as you rolled out a patch and was rolled back as soon as there was an uproar (btw. the fix was also never mentioned in any of those patch notes).
    That means one thing: You openly lied to us. Your community. Your players. Your customers.

    How can I trust a company if they doesn’t trust their own decisions anymore and must rely on lying to their customers?

    And this is not the first time something like this happened. I remember as Neverwinter started and the armor was unbound. An update later we had bound armor and there was a gigantic uproar. As answer to that you made it unbound, or at least the boss drop was unbound, the personal chest was bound.

    You stated back then that you would listen to your customers and if we don’t want something like this you wouldn’t do it. What do we have now? Bound Armor. From the chest of course but also from Bosses. Something you said you wouldn’t do.

    My god are you incompetent. And I mean not only the Developers but the Company as a whole

    I mean, seriously. Elemental Evil. Deleting 66% of your endgame content. Deleting 11 Dungeons. The Module offered nothing of value for your customers.

    Exploits, reported by your own community before the game even got launched into Open Beta that lead to a rollback and 2 days downtime. And that is not the only time that happens. Your overall damage control is terrible.

    Rubber banding. I know you are in this strange Zone where the provider offers a terrible services for the connection so we all have a bit of lag but nothing really terrible. But as a customer, I can only care that much. You had over three years’ time to come up with an solution, and even if we exclude this problem the game still has issues with rubber banding because AOE fields generate an higher ping by itself (degrading netcode?).

    Different powers constantly interact with each other making an infinite amount of procs. I still remember how it was impossible to make a Herald Run in the Well of Dragons as soon as a Paladin used Prism or a Divine Cleric used Astral Shield. The whole instance was halted because the server must calculate all the different procs from these abilities which meant you couldn’t do anything until the Prism or the Astral Shield runs out of time.

    It would be the best to insert a system that allows at max. 10 procs from any source until it is clearly stated how much it can proc. I was in Dungeon Runs in the past with two Paladins and if they used certain powers at the same time the whole instance crashed, we were booted from the game and as we logged back in we were outside the Dungeon. We lost our complete progression in the Dungeon and needed to start again.

    The game currently feels more like one of these HAMSTER little mobile games

    You know the mobile games that sounds pretty great and also play very well the first few minutes or hours but after a certain point it is clear to you that you must pay a tremendous amount of money to get the same fun or flow back that it started with?

    This is that sort of game which are classified as a plain cash grab from the majority of the gaming community and being tossed outside the airlock.

    And Neverwinter is currently in the same category. And it is not my sole opinion. I am reading also the reddit and a lot of players complain that they have the feeling that they can’t progress anymore at a certain point in the game which is most of the time around 2,500 ilvl.

    I understand, it is a free2play game and someone must pay for it but your monetization is EVERYWHERE. Stronghold, Companions, Enchantments, Healing Potions, Reskin, Retrain, Inventory Space, etc.

    There is basically no aspect of the game where I don’t need to pay with Astral Diamonds. You must pay for the simplest things. But at the same time you make bold claims like: “We want that Armor is earned.”

    That’s an outright lie! As Stronghold was introduced you could pay for it to get it after a few tries on the heroic encounter. You could purchase Stronghold goods for the Guild Marks and Keys to open the small chests for extra Dragon Fangs. After a few days there where already players running around in the new shiny armor and everyone knew: They didn’t earned it. They payed to speed it up and not for a small portion of it.
    Also you could pay for the Dusk Armor which is better than the regular Dragonflight Armor.

    And the worst is…

    And the worst overall is: Neverwinter is not even a bad game. It has fun combat. The classes feel very differently in their roles and are all very fun to play (only the Hunter Ranger, he is HAMSTER, seriously how can you play with such a HAMSTER dodge?). The Dungeons&Dragons license is a good one and in the designs of the monsters and npcs very well executed (praise to your design team).

    Heck, even the campaigns gets a better story (praise to your story guy). I really liked the Underdark and Maze Engine Storyline and also the Stormkings Thunder Storyline is very interesting and easier to understand as the older campaigns.

    So there is at least one point that gets better. But on the other side:

    PvP is broken. Really broken. The game is essential pay2win. In PvE that is something totally neglectable. You also benefit from stronger player that cashed in if they are in your group/guild (and I personally view it as a good thing if you can skip to pay). But in PvP you get crushed by the sheer amount of gear these player brings with it which lead to a decline of the PvP community.

    The same goes for the Foundry. I understand that your budget is limited and your man power is also very limited. But the Foundry could have been the key feature to change this. You know games like Starcraft or Warcraft 3? They created new genres of games with a good content creator tool. Something like this could have been the Foundry. It could have kept your game relevant for the community which outgrew your content. But instead it was abandoned.

    To sum it up

    You have still a good game. A good foundation. But the overall annoyances add up.
    The monetization feels too invasive and it gives me the overall feeling: Give me money or I throw stick and stones in your way. Bugs and Lags are really annoying. And some design decisions are beyond HAMSTER.

    Why did you implement certain features in the first place if you can’t secure to keep them updated?

    Or couldn’t you keep them because of wrong decisions you did in the past which lead to a decline in your community and less income for you?

    If that is the case, you learned nothing of your past mistakes. You make them over and over and over again.

    And one of your biggest mistakes was to lie to us. Your customers. Your Community. Your Lifeline.

    And there goes another soul from the world of Neverwinter..:(...kudos to you bro.
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