DEFENSE in PvP

elu · October 2016

I've been told by multiple PC Players that defense is nearly useless In PvP, but they never go into detail on why that is. Can someone please explain a little more?

vinceent1 · October 2016

because defence as stat is very weak in comparison with items you can get to increase your survivability

trentbail21 · October 2016

Because of all the piercing damage in Pvp. Defense won't help you against a rogues daily (shocking execution) and against combat hunters because of piercing blades.

Might as well stack up hp and either lifesteal/ or deflect depending on which class you are.

loboguild · October 2016

The main reason is that defense can be pierced by ArPen and because of the stat curves it's very hard to outdefense ArPen, even with sufficient Tenacity. Most PVP builds feature enough RI so they can ignore the full DR cap (80%). Investing into other layers of defense like Deflect and such makes much more sense.

santralafax · October 2016

A feated GWF also get a boost to Power from Defense. Again, it depends on class and build.

That's twice in two minutes I've seen MacJae suggest GWFs are too something. I have my own problems with TRs, HRs and CWs.... Have you noticed how tanky SWs are? And they wear cloth armor!

pando83 · October 2016

ArP can be stacked quite high but it's also heavily reduced by tenacity ArP resistance. So while ArP is 100 stat to get 1% DRI, the 80% or so ArP resistance you get from tenacity actually decreases the DRI from ArP much more. It's still better than stacking power (from my calculations), which is why PvPers stack ArP (unless they have broken massive piercing damage).
Some classes like GWF get a double benefit too (Power from ArP).

Still, keeping into account ArP resistance, DR from defense counts even more. For me, the difference in bursts is noticeable if i use the defense boon or the LS boon (no HP boon available). Against some classes (GWF,GF,CW,SW exc...) Defense means a lot. Against others (HRs and TRs) you have to stack LS, due to not WAI (in my opinion) massive piercing damage. But with current damage, i noticed that if i use the LS boon i can get burst down too fast--->not enough time to heal with LS even at 40%+ LS chance. In fact, before getting the HP boon, many BiS PvPers were just using the defense boon while getting to 20% LS chance, roughly, through gear.

In the end, the only, best boon for PvP defense is HP boon, because it's basically something that cannot be pierced and is not reduced in PvP (while life steal is under healing depression). These mechanics contribute to create even more gap between PvP focused guilds and PvE focused guilds, and BiS PvPers and normal players.

So it's not like defense is useless. It's...situational. But still a very good option if you don't have the HP boon. Unless you meet piercing damage, but it should be fixed so i'm not really considering it as a "WAI mechanic".

santralafax · October 2016

@pando83 They are fixing piercing damage?

icyphish · October 2016

Defense is useless because there is Piercing Damage, and both piercing damage from both classes (TR/HR) could one shot you, hence its better to stack HP than Defense in PvP. However in matches where there is no Piercing damage, then Defense can be useful.

pando83 · October 2016

santralafax said:
@pando83 They are fixing piercing damage?

No idea but in the past everything that was overperforming was eventually fixed. With a lot of time, sadly. So we will have to deal with this BS for some time unless the devs do something very fast.
In the past many BS powers/ builds were broken, and always some players would say that "well, learn and adapt, it's the game". But eventually those powers and builds were fixed.
The same applies to piercing damage: it's quite clear to everyone that a class cannot have 99% of its DPS placed on a feat/ power that is undeflectable, unresistable and that pierces thrugh 99% of the defensive mechanics of the game.
Such thing must be a small % of the total DPS. 99% of the DPS of EVERY CLASS must be placed on encounters that are dodgeable, mitigable, deflectable.

Piercing damage per-se is not wrong, if it's a SMALL aid to one class' total DPS. It's wrong when it's massive, with entire builds revolving around 1 piercing move or piercing damage.

Fixing piercing damage would make defense count again in PvP.

jonkoca · October 2016

@pando,

Rather than just cry for a nerf, I guess if you really want the devs to listen, you should come up with a suggestion on how to compensate PvP HRs damage-wise for the loss or nerfing of piercing blade. They scratched their collective heads about it for about 2 mods, and this solution is the best they could come up with, like it or not.

The base problem is simple. In pvp, hunter rangers fell behind in damage when player hitpoints started going through the roof post mod6, and at the same time self healing increased immensely. This only affected pvp, in pve our damage levels were more than adequate. This leaves a problem, if HR normal base encounter and at will damage were increased to the point of effectiveness/competitiveness in pvp, our pve damage would also increase, well beyond "more than adequate" to the realm of laughably overpowered. And I mean, so laughable that if there was even a half decent HR in your run, wave goodbye to all hope of topping the paingiver, however well built or BIS you may be. Hell, right now, even with current HR pve damage thresholds, I could specc back to SW trapper and beat 90% of the player base on the paingiver, a fix would just give me the remaining 10%.

No-one likes piercing, I agree. But the alternatives, unless you wish to relegate a whole class into non-existence... Are much worse. So let's hear it pando, fix us.

plavia · October 2016

def is good stat and it can help in anylevel as many palyer have lot of ArP.
but there are other stat that are better.
HP can effect feats and powers (astral shield, bastion of health)
deflect can proc boons, insignia bonus, everfrost set and defelct control attacks

now you can stack any stat with little diminishing return. overall the return from def is lower then other HP/deflect

pando83 · October 2016

jonkoca said:
@pando,

It's not a "cry for a nerf" but i see this troll line coming up everytime someone tries to talk about something overperforming in game. It happened in the past about countless broken powers, feats, items. And every time there was some smart guy saying "stop asking for a nerf, adapt bla bla bla...). Eventually, the devs always tone down what's clearly broken.

I already said many times that it must not be a nerf but that, for example, TRs must have their encounters buffed when SE gets fixed. Same goes for HRs. It's not my job to fix classes. If you want me to take the time to solve the issue then pay me please cryptic. Thank you. What we can say for SURE is that the solution is NOT giving classes a mechanic that erases skills, piercing through everything.
You say "the devs scratched their collective heads". Wrong. They always come up with the easiest, and usually dumbest, non-solution. Creating an even bigger problem.
My suggestion is: buff other encounters, and something that can be dodged/ mitigated so that it's skill vs skill (ability to time your attack vs ability to time my defense).
Also: about PvE, you can make this damage buff similar to GWF's: damage is built up slowly, through skills. For example, a GWF must stack destroyer purpose during 4-8 seconds of unstoppable, and the enemy can dodge and avoid the GWF when he is in unstoppable. Mobs don't do that so it's easier to stack, but you still need time (go unstoppable, hit, exc...) which limits the potential of GWFs' DPS, allowing other classes with less peak damage but more burst, to deal enough DPS to compete. Same can be done with HRs.

Also: "fix us". US. I play an HR too, you know. Since more than 1 year. It's not my main but i still play it a lot. Look at my signature. So if you assume that i want HRs nerfed following some hidden agenda, sorry, you've no idea of what you are talking about. I just don't want dumb, skill-less mechanics in a game that has a very fun combat system. One of the reasons why i still play NWO is because the combat system has the potential to allow players to show their skills. It's fun and dynamic. Piercing damage BREAKS everything that NWO has to offer in terms of action combat.

jonkoca · October 2016

Ok, I'm fine with that, I'll take stacks of "hunter's blade", perhaps gain a stack by alternating melee attack/range attack. I play an admittedly very poorly geared gwf alt, and the uptime on those stacks once they're complete, is significant. Enough to boost a hybrid pve trapper's damage through the roof, unless the devs are careful, an alternate combat capstone perhaps. Pvp, I dunno, might work, to make up for the loss of piercing though, it would have to be a helluva buff, and then ofc. pve trappers would switch.

Still, nice suggestion, and better than a bald cry for a ner... erm, 'fix'...

There's a big difference though, between alt and main. Time and investment, both financially, and personally, but I guess you know that. And changing vocabulary, however you wish to spin it, does not particularly change the intent, only it's social acceptability. Ethnic cleansing for example, sounds so nice, along with its so innocent friend, collateral damage. Don't kid a kidder.

jhpnw · October 2016

Bottom Line is every thread in pvp is now by a select few becoming a nerf thread. No matter what DEvs do someone is not going to like it now and say its op and scream nerf. We wonder why Devs never listen to PVPers. HR got teeth now but the better players all have learned to kill them quite efficiently. As far as Piercing being top now why are the top PVP HRs in most kills and wins all speced back to trappers.

schietindebux · October 2016

jonkoca said:
Ok, I'm fine with that, I'll take stacks of "hunter's blade", perhaps gain a stack by alternating melee attack/range attack. I play an admittedly very poorly geared gwf alt, and the uptime on those stacks once they're complete, is significant. Enough to boost a hybrid pve trapper's damage through the roof, unless the devs are careful, an alternate combat capstone perhaps. Pvp, I dunno, might work, to make up for the loss of piercing though, it would have to be a helluva buff, and then ofc. pve trappers would switch.

Still, nice suggestion, and better than a bald cry for a ner... erm, 'fix'...

There's a big difference though, between alt and main. Time and investment, both financially, and personally, but I guess you know that. And changing vocabulary, however you wish to spin it, does not particularly change the intent, only it's social acceptability. Ethnic cleansing for example, sounds so nice, along with its so innocent friend, collateral damage. Don't kid a kidder.

Did you ever run ACT in PVP?
Before mod 10 warlock was the class that topped damage, killing nothing by that, since DOT´s suck in PVP.
If you monitore the damage in PVP in mod 10 you will be very surprised about the actual Combat Hunter...he doubles the warlocks damage and sometimes deals the same ammount as all of his teammate together...70-80% piercing damage rules

This is not a call for nerf, this is only to get some objectivity into this because nothing (and also no mega-selfbuff from GWF) can stand against piercing damage in times of 4k tenacity.
I run a GWF..he is an invoking char at lev70, i know GWF can be fun in PVP, but it´s gear dependant. Hunter was less geardependant till mod 9 and I am sure it´s even less geardependant in mod 10, right?

pando83 · October 2016

There are 2 clearly broken mechanics that delete fights in this game and both are related to piercing damage. It's not like the classes using them would be "useless" without them. But would need compensations, which is nice.
But i keep reading players from those classes overreacting every time someone says "hey guys, when will we fix piercing damage"? It's not "i agree but give us compensations" (which is something EVERYONE stated should be done). It's always a "don't touch our piercing damage!!" reaction.

I already stated many times that piercing damage must be compensated by other buffs, and yet, when i write "hey guys piercing damage destroys the entire combat system for GWFs" i get the same childish reactions.

It took also to me 1 minute to figure out a better way to "fix" HRs and i don't even main them. So perhaps the devs are not "scratching" their heads too much about it and perhaps many players who main TRs and HRs just feel too comfortable with piercing damage easy mode mechanic and get angry when someone tries to propose changes, hiding behind the "it's a nerf request!!11!" excuse.

Else, when someone states the obvious (piercing damage being too powerful) they would reply with something about the buffs needed to compensate.

burndownxmas · October 2016

So I think I have a good solution to piercing damage; first things first, don't remove it. Removing mechanics and options of viability behind classes is a big no no and will make players hate both community and devs for it. Now the only thing we need to do to alter this is change the frequency of which piercing comes into play or percentage of piercing you get, putting this in laymen's is we should alter the Dc's sigil to not give Ap instead go for increased Ap generation percentage or something like that, doing this you still have to earn your dailies and can't just spam them, this will be easier than doing a massive change to the rogue and all of its abilities, as for the latter if I remember right Hrs have to build piercing stacks with melee abilities, if this is the case just tone down the percentage to acceptable levels and go about our day.

jonkoca · October 2016

From the couple of acts I ran early on in the mod, piercing blade was coming in at 50% of my damage, I've swapped a lot around since then to maximize things, so probably more now.

Lol, you guys. You know HRs have difficulty hitting anything near a 250k strike in Pve, even fully buffed, let alone pvp. Give me the abilty to hit those kind of levels and yeah, you can toss piercing straight in the bin.

"Less gear dependent" hmm. Depends who you're playing against. Nub vs. Nub, sure, who cares what you wear..? At higher levels, well, as per usual, rnk12s, prestige, rose gold etc. all matter. I run 3xprestige, relic raid chest, 2 rose gold medic rings and 180k HP with a flat 60% critchance, there are still people I can't put a dent in, and gfs who can one rotate me.

No offence people, but none of you sound like you really play a pvp HR enough to make judgements based on anything very much than a knee-jerk reaction to catching a bad hit or three in dom from a seriously geared HR, of which, btw. there are very few comparitively.

jackanuckox3 · October 2016

@jonkoca exactly this. No more words needed.

jhpnw · October 2016

I am a HR 4.2 il and speced strait combat and for pvp played pvp for 2 years as both combat and trapper. The real big damage hits every ones throwing around are just not there. Any player my IL can 1 rotate PUgs. I don't have the lux of pvp guild or the leg mount. But I have spent hours and hrs in IWD and playing vs other players. Vs any player my Il its never easy like every one keeps saying to kill them and vs a Player from the big PVP guilds I am quite killable. So no I don't see all the fuss over piercing my gear is full prestige and rosegold rings and my build and boons have been messaged and peaked for max pvp performance. and I cant even get close to what a trs can do with Se in a full rotation of all powers in Melee so I call bs this thread was a defense question and was used as another nerf quest have seen Jonkoca get smashed by 1 rotate GF HR does not have this ability to do t0 a 4kil player as is claimed

schietindebux · October 2016

That´s how things allways go, next mod, next fotm class, next nerf threat, tons of posts and a lot of flame (like above) from player. I won´t call for nerfs since it´s useless but you can´t tell people how to argue or discuss things in case you only argue from your PoV, wich may be the view of someone with an average build/skill whatever.
I would just suggest to all those player to run ACT and watch those graphs , only to get a feeling what this discussion is about. The discussion is about defence btw. wich get´s pretty useless meeting some classes, so it is indeed not offtopic imo.
And please don´t get me wrong, I never would defend any class (esp not GWF

) but I´d like to get things objective, wich is not that common in NWO PVP threats.

santralafax · October 2016

,,,,

jhpnw · October 2016

lion 140 movement and has attacks

santralafax · October 2016

I realized you meant legendary mount too late, and tried to withdraw. That lion does seem to be the most popular one! I have a leg mount, but not that one. It's amazing some of the folks who have multiple.

pando83 · October 2016

jonkoca said:
Ok, I'm fine with that, I'll take stacks of "hunter's blade", perhaps gain a stack by alternating melee attack/range attack. I play an admittedly very poorly geared gwf alt, and the uptime on those stacks once they're complete, is significant. Enough to boost a hybrid pve trapper's damage through the roof, unless the devs are careful, an alternate combat capstone perhaps. Pvp, I dunno, might work, to make up for the loss of piercing though, it would have to be a helluva buff, and then ofc. pve trappers would switch.

Still, nice suggestion, and better than a bald cry for a ner... erm, 'fix'...

There's a big difference though, between alt and main. Time and investment, both financially, and personally, but I guess you know that. And changing vocabulary, however you wish to spin it, does not particularly change the intent, only it's social acceptability. Ethnic cleansing for example, sounds so nice, along with its so innocent friend, collateral damage. Don't kid a kidder.

I always put efforts and brain in my suggestions, even if other players might not like them, i always do it because i think it's something that might improve the game.
Same when i discuss behaviours.

Today a premade group from a PvP guild TRIED to bully me because they don't like my forum posts. And i got warned when i tried to discuss some in-game behaviours in these PvP forums.
Won't be posting again and i already deleted 99% of my friend list in-game and shut down al lthe chats.

Because i play to have fun and post to discuss. Not to fight against groups of bullies. Have fun and good luck.

jonkoca · October 2016

I think you're a good poster, I don't agree with you sometimes, but there's no animosity. Forget those HAMSTER in the pre made.

DEFENSE in PvP

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