test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
PVE only PUGs kill PVP matches, solutions needed
matthiasthehun76
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
Hi all, fellow PVPers and Devs!
I must admit i have bashed a lot in the past about premades, sometimes out of frustration, sometimes cause of PUGstumping, which i still hate, but lately i wish i was in a premade of my own.
I would like to stay just and speak a bit now about the other side of the fence, the PUGs, where sadly many are absolute game breakers too. Sometimes it is just uneducated behavior, but many times pure greed for easy AD.
I am in a small guild with small boons and 99% of my friends won't touch PVP with gloves either, so i am running always solo and have to rely on my PUG team mates. Now english is not my mother language, but the mate word is a bit of exaggerating, i would rather call them hunch on my back.
This is not a new phenomenon, but lately since the PVP community has shrunk immensely, it is more obvious to the eye of the beholder (
), especially if one sits in a PUG team.
I was today in a Domination match, lost 3 in a row btw, when i kind of exploded and had to log off. All my matches featured nearly the same conversation on my team, from PUGs, take a look for yourselves:
Now this brings me to try to ask the Devs repeatedly for some improvements regarding PVP and this time not just the usual bracket, IL and etc stuff, but i would like to ask for the urgent implementation of the much advocated lobby system by @metalldjt or the removal of AD entirely and maybe the introduction of other rewards for PVP, cause this is also a huge game breaker for us, SOLO players.
I am personally fed up to be paired with intentionally trolling persons, who don't give a damn about team, just come and leech for easy AD. I would like to play with like minded people, who are there to enjoy PVP and contribute to the success of their team.
Yet again i have to ask my favorite question regarding the leader board, what does it show lol, does it show, that the majority of my losses are due to trolling persons? Of course not, one would say, looking at the leader board, i suck. So please until you guys, the Devs have the matchmaking fixed, put leader board to the grave, utterly useless.
Thank you!
I must admit i have bashed a lot in the past about premades, sometimes out of frustration, sometimes cause of PUGstumping, which i still hate, but lately i wish i was in a premade of my own.
I would like to stay just and speak a bit now about the other side of the fence, the PUGs, where sadly many are absolute game breakers too. Sometimes it is just uneducated behavior, but many times pure greed for easy AD.
I am in a small guild with small boons and 99% of my friends won't touch PVP with gloves either, so i am running always solo and have to rely on my PUG team mates. Now english is not my mother language, but the mate word is a bit of exaggerating, i would rather call them hunch on my back.
This is not a new phenomenon, but lately since the PVP community has shrunk immensely, it is more obvious to the eye of the beholder (
), especially if one sits in a PUG team.I was today in a Domination match, lost 3 in a row btw, when i kind of exploded and had to log off. All my matches featured nearly the same conversation on my team, from PUGs, take a look for yourselves:
Now this brings me to try to ask the Devs repeatedly for some improvements regarding PVP and this time not just the usual bracket, IL and etc stuff, but i would like to ask for the urgent implementation of the much advocated lobby system by @metalldjt or the removal of AD entirely and maybe the introduction of other rewards for PVP, cause this is also a huge game breaker for us, SOLO players.
I am personally fed up to be paired with intentionally trolling persons, who don't give a damn about team, just come and leech for easy AD. I would like to play with like minded people, who are there to enjoy PVP and contribute to the success of their team.
Yet again i have to ask my favorite question regarding the leader board, what does it show lol, does it show, that the majority of my losses are due to trolling persons? Of course not, one would say, looking at the leader board, i suck. So please until you guys, the Devs have the matchmaking fixed, put leader board to the grave, utterly useless.
Thank you!
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Post edited by zebular on
0
Comments
I do feel for new players trying to solo queue. Maybe a compromise in the form of the aforementioned lobby for those that play less and don't accumulate masses of pvp friends, where they can get together with other low ilvl pvpers. Of course matchmaking needs to be robust for this to work. Hell it seems the absolute #1 problem is the matchmaking system discussed ad nauseam.
23 matches lost now this way and in all of them i did my fair share or even more and all in vain.
1. Dear Devs please let those damn shards for barracks drop somewhere elsewhere, in a PVE environment (no the Underdark 5 day voucher is clearly not enough), most of our problems would be solved this way, the PVE players, who don't care a bit for PVP would not ruin PVP lovers' matches anymore.
2. Implement a small time punishment for those who just troll around and don't contribute anything to team, maybe an activity counter or some sort of thing. I don't know, maybe no AD and/or glory from that match or anything else, use your imaginations. Thank you!
3. Please fix the bug with matchmaking, where PVP guilders get matched by Q with their guildies/friends/alliance members. It is really sad to be always paired with low IL PUGs, who either don't care a bit for PVP or don't have the gear to be efficient enough.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223443/matchmaking-introducing-a-new-pvp-level-for-better-matchmaking-suggestion
Its only if you take the approach that the Que needs to balance teams across an entire population - rather than segregating the population - that you will get BIS players matched against casuals that dont care.
In the system I proposed, you would never have this.
ELO only works in 100% skill based game. Not a game in which you have RPG elements that entail massive gear gaps.
An RPG game, needs an "RPG" based matchmaking system. This system is the PVP Level system.
Can you 100% eliminate unbalanced Ques with ANY system? No. Because there are always loopholes. Get a BIS player who never plays PVP for example and BAM, his first several matches will be unbalanced.
As a whole though, this system would work wonders for the game. It would separate out all the HAMSTER that happens now. You wouldnt see all the problems happening AND it would be much much much easier to set up premade vs premade OR inhouses...
I dont think the Lobby idea you proposed is horrible, but I think its the right solution at the WRONG time. If your lobby idea was out 2-3 years ago it would be perfect because the population can support it. Now the population is too low, I only fear a lobby system will be the nail in the coffin for PVP.
The Lobby system is something that wont fix the game. Neither will class balance. Those are short term fixes, like a bandaid over a gaping wound. The wound needs to be mended and closed. This can only happen by a major overhaul of PVP.
Your solution fixes it for NOW, my proposal fixes it LONG TERM. It builds the PVP population, rather than creating more and more "divide".
Would it be nice to have? I am not denying a lobby system wouldnt be a great add. But without fixing the underlying issue with PVP: Gear Gap, it WONT fix PVP long term and will just be a "new toy" that BIS PVPers get and soon you will get bored and throw it out.
Not to mention with class balance. Class balance is thrown out the window nearly every module man... Some new item, or boon, or ability gets changes and BAM, OP Monster in PVP.... So I wouldnt stress class balance too much as the "only needed thing" nor is a Lobby system going to FIX PVP - though its not a bad idea.
I guarantee you "Class Balance" wont be their answer. It will be "I dont want to get stomped by premades"
What they dont realize is its not PREMADES that are the issue, the real issue is the "getting stomped" part. Everyone assumes its because its a premade that they got stomped which isnt true. "premade" has almost turned into a synonym for "5 BIS PVP Players"
I bet you could not even have a premade, just randomly get into a game where its 3kers on 1 side and 4k+ers on the other and the other team would say "I hate getting matched against premades" Because they dont know... They assume every 4k+ person is always premading around...
The SINGLE biggest problem with PVP isnt class balance, it isnt matchmaking... its POPULATION. Ive said it over and over. The current gear gap issues would work fine and current EVERYTHING would work just fine if NW had 100x the population.
The issue is, that it doesnt. Gear gap HAS to directly correspond to population. Population is low, therefore the allowable gear gap MUST be low or the game is destined to fail. Period.
Every module there has been class imbalance. Them wasting time on THAT issue right now, is not top of the list. Top of the list should be TWO things:
1) How do we get new players to join the game and old players to come back
and
2) How can we reduce the gear gap in PVP so more of the current population will play PVP
Your Lobby and your class balance wont address EITHER of those. They are minor issues not major ones.
The lobby is a good way for BIS and non-BIS to make matches and not get thrown against each other, unless someone wants to.
The PVP lvl/point system would be good too. You would eventually be on your skill level and could enjoy fighting more balanced fights with similarly skilled people.
You have 2 good ideas there fellas, why not try to finetune them together and see what comes up.
At least i cant see ANY reasons why both ideas cant be used to make PVP/NCL ques and gaming better.
Also i think we need 1vs1 and 3vs3 arena fights. This node swapping is getting pretty boring, dont ya think.
People are quick to say, "Premades just want to pug stomp." But for many of us, it isn't so we can get kills easily or wander around crushing the souls of everyone else.
If I premade, it is purely for the reason that the OP is highlighting - I have had enough of being on a team with people that are decked in low item PVE gear, that run about aimlessly, dying repeatedly and not aiding the team whatsoever, just to get a few meager offerings of AD. Why should those of us that enjoy this aspect of the game have it ruined by those that don't care less for co-operative game play?
Sometimes a premade accidentally ends up against PUGS. Half the time we are trying to co-ordinate an in house, I know we tried for over an hour the other day to establish one between two teams from our guild/alliance.
Mostly I duo-queue or solo. At least then you get a chance of being put with some people who are in pvp to enjoy it, compete, work as a team and have a relative idea of how the game should go. Some of those matches are fun, others are not due to the completely unbalanced queue system.
Solo-queuing for a DC shows the HUGE flaws in the pvp queue system. When you find yourself on middle node surrounded by 5 enemy players all 3k+ IL and all your team are at home node, with their 2k IL gear...... yeah, I will happily join any premade after a string of matches like that.
I believe PVP has to be changed by 4 things;
1) Removal of AD.
2) An IL bracket (around about 3k) and/or a tenacity requirement (similar to the requirement of needing resistance for entering the new FBI dungeon)
3) Forced rainbow queues (we already have a similar form for PVE content - limiting healers/tanks etc)
and finally:
4) A separate queue for premades/lobby system
I list them in order of importance, to what I believe will impact PVP in Neverwinter the most.
Blame cryptic for them being there, not the players, anything else would be like punching your coworkers in the face, because your boss won't pay them enough. (edit: allright, perhaps not the best analogy)
Another thing, like so many have already said many many times, is in fact the very thing that got me interested in PvP in the first place; conqueror shards requirements for the barracks. As long as it's there, and IWD PvP has no universal timer letting us know when it spawns, people with no interest in spending already limited inventory space (ridiculous amount of RP variations, quest items, consumables, I could go on forever) on separate PvP gear, and certainly not rebuild their characters for it, are going to be flooding domination.
@bluangeluk
I agree 100% with you on that priority list.
As for those "4 people at home base, me alone at mid" situations, those just HAMSTER me off. Plain and simple. If I even bother running for mid when that happens, and not just let them get overrun by the enemy at home base, is highly dependant on my mood.
You know guys i told you about (sorry if i repeat myself) that common Hungarian phrase about the bad housewife, well our old ladies say here, if a housewife isn't the tidy one and she just pushes the dirt under the carpet, one day the guests will fall over it. I guess this describes our current PVP (and PVE) situation now.
There are many good ideas, one would benefit us in short term, one is designed for the long run, personally i am at the point, that i would welcome anything, being it a small band aid or a final solution, just let's see something happen.
I am not doom saying, just telling my insights as a player and officer in my small and ever smaller getting guild. Things are out of hand and it's not just PVP, i could have come up with PVE too for example. Players feel burnt out. My guildies, well most of them, log in get key, if they have VIP and maybe do their dailies and off to another game. The nonsense called INF farming doesn't motivate people anymore and i am not even angry at my guildies, who don't do it regularly, it's anti human in every aspect. Same goes for PVP, most people don't touch it, cause coming back to my phrase they fall over the carpet and others just Q to get their easy AD and then move on.
Company still doesn't get it, we need usable content, may it be PVE dungeons or PVP with proper matchmaking and maybe a few new maps and match modes.
We had foundry which could have filled the holes the games has, but it's a huge potential wasted.
They sadly don't get it, that you can't hold people in a game with boring and repetitive HEs. Ever since Mod 6 and the loss of our dungeons we just get more HEs. I get it, it's cheap and easy to put one HE together, whereas real content needs time and effort. Heck a game called DnD should at least have 1 new dungeon each Mod, not less and less.
So what would be the only filler to go to after daily grind and too much repetitive stuff, yeah PVP and here we go again, catch 22 situation.
At some point Devs and/or suits will have to commit themselves to spend time and money on fixing things or we all know what is at the end of the road. The active player base is already very very small, why make it smaller, it's beyond me.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
I agree with everything you said prior. Premades DONT (contrary to popular belief) run around only looking to crush premades. People who make premades, probably 50% of the time make them because they are sick of getting teamed with total scrubs who play the game or just want their AD.
Why I disagree with your points though.
1) Removal of AD might be a bad thing. offering AD is the ONLY reward right now for PVP, if you remove this, short term yes, you will have less of the PVE life suckers who only AFK in spawn for the AD. However it also removes any incentive for players TO pvp.. While its not a ton of AD, its atleast SOME reward and I fear that if a new player is faced with trying to PVP or doing PVE content and wants AD, they will never partake in PVP and the PVP population will never grow.
I really, truly believe this problem will be solved with my PVP Level idea:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12893226?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+cb88219496548a670615e7281a8af9bf8f11fe70+1476274994+hmacsha1
2) IL brackets wont work as much as we all would love them to. IL doesnt include mounts or boon bonuses, so its far from actual measure of players power. Also you have issues of gear swapping. Players put on their PVE gear to do SH content, or quests or what not while QUed for PVP. Then swap over to PVP gear. YOu would require them to force-lock your gear upon Que which I see as only disastrous for the game. I cant tell you how many times ill swap something out in SH or PE and then once I get into the game or heck, halfway through a match, realize I forgot to swap back to PVP gear. It will also deter people from queing while doing other stuff, like SH Quests.
3) Forced Rainbow Ques. I think you almost have to allow for atleast 2 of any class. People come and play MMOs to play with friends. What this does is forces anyone who wants to do this to play different classes. What if you and a friend made the same class? You could NEVER Pvp with him/her... I am all for fair games and also rainbow games when it comes to PVP, this is what (as you know) we try to strive for. But I think the more restrictions we put on this stuff, the more it will impact the average player when what we need to strive for is a more welcoming environment when it comes to PVP. I think PART of this problem is solved with my OTHER suggestion of "Vanilla" PVP. Not all, but SOME of the troll-ness of classes is that way because of all the power creep and available items. Remove those and I believe SOME of that troll in running more than 1 class is more limited.
4) Separate Ques - I really think that at THIS juncture its a bad idea. We have been told many times by the DEVs that matchmaking gives unfair matches because the population is too small. I think if we divide up the que even more, people will quit as it will take longer to get good games. Premade PVP will nearly essentially die (long term). This is a great short term idea.. but after 1-2 modules the ONLY players who will use this will be Synergy Alliance doing inhouses. Which is GREAT short term and maybe eventually long term, but the #1 goal of the DEVs right now should be to get more of the population into the PVP Que which the more do PVP, the more balanced matches we can get. This is why the PVP Level is the BEST solution to this. If you read my post, I recommend premade teams being "ranked" as the highest PVP Level person on their team. So what that means is it will only pit a premade against likely another premade OR a PUG group who OUTGEARS the premade team (likely). I think that with my TWO solutions of Vanilla PVP and PVP Level, you wont need separate ques.
rainbow is protection paladin and guardian fighter.
They will call you trol lbecauseon firhst example are both healers no matter if are different class.
ON second example again you are toll because both are tanks no matter if they are differnt class:P
I would log online and see 1-2 buddies. 1 of my best friends in this game played the SAME class as me... We would TRIO Q and have a blast playing against other players, MANY matches were competative because gear gap was MUCH smaller than it is today. We would even beat many premade groups just due to our PUGs actually being able to hold their own... Today you cant do that. Your "PUGs" get rocked. A premade dominates and the #1 issue is not communication - though that DOES play a role in premades, but rather item level. Your pugs cant even 2v1 someone on a node, you cant expect to win...
PVP needs to become that casual friendly arena again. Where BIS players dont feel premades are mandatory, where new players and PVE players feel they are "relevant" in PVP without having to totally respec their character... That there is a POINT to PVP....
PVP should NOT be seen as an "elite only" battleground where its completely designed and balanced around the top 1% of the PVP player base.
Thats ultimately why these things like Lobby system etc wont fix the game. It caters to a small remnant of players rather than making PVP more inclusive to ALL players. That should be the goal, not more restrictions, but LESS.
Its kinda silly to think that a fix to the matchmaking will also fix everyone's attitude tho, lol
1) Ranked Que (allows for teams 1-4 size to que)
2) Ranked Premade Que (allows for full 5 man)
3) FFA Que (LOBBY SYSTEM) - NO rewards for this que
The problem with any of these alternative Que systems RIGHT NOW is that the population just isnt there. Its why you cant separate out premades - because it will kill PVP.
Its why Solo Q (IMO) is a BAD idea because it takes away from the "core" of a MMO RGP - to play with your friends.
Imagine if you could NEVER do PVE content with your friends, you could only "SOLO Q" for dungeons and then had to just HOPE or Que sync that you get matched with a buddy. This is the concern I have. We need to be tearing down barriers not creating new ones.
I Truly think that my "PVP LEvel" approach to this will solve your proble,. The casuals by definition will NOT be a very high PVP Level where as the average PVPer will likely be much higher thus segregating out the population of PVP appropriately. People who are BIS will likely only get matched against other high PVP Level BIS people. Average PVPers will face people of their own tier and casuals/leechers will only get matched against themsevles or brand new players.
It is very frustrating for me to have half team stay on hill or run for there home node trying to get there 600 points or just wait on match to be over and never leave the fire. Yesterday I had 6 matches 3 quit on 3 separate matches before gate even dropped due to they say 3 players on same team on other side. 2 other matches had 1 or 2 players never leave fire
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223443/matchmaking-introducing-a-new-pvp-level-for-better-matchmaking-suggestion/p1?new=1&sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+276db19ca7e4db5c857a70b53c49ad985b8fb3c5+1476304775+hmacsha1
Because first of all. You would never be placed into a match where you were significantly outgeared or outgunned. So every match would be one in which you likely stand a chance.
Second, these players who are willing to accept a loss, would LOSE a PVP Level or PVP EXP which for most people is enough incentive to atleast TRY.
I think AD should be just a win reward, not a "participation" reward but frankly, I am afraid to do that as it will hurt the population. I think you just need to give a reason to those AFKers to actually play... I think this might do the trick.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
SOmetimes is a loss but other times i have seen the premade team to lose the match.
Maybe I should kick people who wears tenacity gear, am I doing this right?
It's like telling normal motorcycles should only be used in paved roads but mountain bikes can be used in both off-roads and paved.