Please remove the ability to kick or demote a guild leader!

bigredbrent · August 2016

I invested A LOT of resources into this guild, from level 4 to level 12. Probably enough to completely max out a dozen characters or more. Otherwise I would not care so much. Obviously this is my take on things, but I am trying to be as honest and impartial as I can be. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't just make things up.

I have unintentionally upset a fellow guild leader. They have accused me of setting up everything the way that I want them to be set up in the guild and on the newly created guild website, and that he has had no say in how they were to be set up. I do not completely agree with this accusation, but I also cannot say that I have not had a significant hand in setting most things up for the guild. I can understand how he may feel left out because we went into this guild with the agreement that we were to be a 50/50 partnership.

I have expressed to him that I am willing to do whatever it takes to make up for this. He has continually expressed to me that it can not be undone no matter what, even though there is nothing he has expressed concern about that cannot be changed and re-changed over and over again, and there is nothing that he himself does not have direct access to change himself if he so desired. I have also never expressed any desire to restrict his efforts to modify or change whatever he wants to. When I tell him this he says that I don't understand and that it can not be undone. And he is correct, I do not understand. He has yet to complain about something that can not be changed at any time however he wants and whenever he wants. If things can only have been done differently in the past, then I am sorry but I can not time travel. But other than the memories of the past, there is nothing that has been set up that can not still be changed or even completely redone now. He says that I am not listening, but anyone who knows me knows that I am the kind of person who is willing to listen, as long as it takes, no matter what. I have absolutely no problem with trying to understand what someone else is trying to tell me.

I did not intentionally mean to upset anyone. Whenever I upset someone, I always try as hard as I can to make amends. My demotion from the position of guild leader without warning when I was offline was however an intentional and deliberate act of betrayal. Between guild leaders it is the ultimate betrayal. There are few things worse that a guild leader can do to another. I would never have agreed to help and invest so much into the guild without the agreement that it would be a completely equal partnership, and that we would never demote or kick each other no matter what. The saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies...

I have already left a guild in the past that I had heavily invested resources into because, one of the guild leaders demoted another guild leader over a dispute because, the guild leader who got demoted wanted to talk it out with them in a civilized manner and they refused to do anything but yell and argue. I wasn't even a guild leader in the previous guild, but out of principle, I just could not stay in a guild with a leader that had such little respect. I have so far been able to shrug off any problems that I have had with the current (now only) guild leader, but I now can't see how I can in good conscience stay in a guild with a leader who would breach such a level of trust. As a guild leader I wouldn't even dare to joke about demoting another guild leader, because I felt that was something that shouldn't even be joked about.

Even if I could be made guild leader again, what would stop the current guild leader from doing it again in the future? And since he already demonstrated a lack of trust in me, how would he be willing to make me a guild leader again anyway without worrying that I would do the same to him?

After a few days and many attempts at trying to plead with him to try to make things up, I finally mention that he isn't perfect either, and he immediately tells me not to make this about him... I mean,,, WTF? I have never yet even once mentioned to him about some equally bad flaws that he does have, and I intend to keep it that way. He obviously is not able or willing to take criticism, and even if he would listen to it (and more than likely he would not), I would rather not be on the receiving end of some pointless backlash because of any major criticisms that I could point out. This is just my opinion, but I feel as though he is either just unwilling to even try to work things out or, he is intentionally using this as an excuse to have total control. Either way, I feel like I have been left with no other choice but to cut my losses and move on.

I had been demoted from rank 7 all the way down to rank 2. And I guess he just expected me to be fine with that after everything I did to build the guild up. I have since left the guild after all my attempts to work things out were all ignored by the remaining guild leader. There are a lot of much bigger guilds who would love to have me as a member, and I just can not be in a guild with leadership with such low integrity.

I honestly believe that the developers should not allow guild leaders to demote or kick another guild leader. A lot of these kinds of troubles have happened in guilds because of childish disputes. Instead of forcing the guild leaders to try to get along, every one of them currently has the ability to kick or demote the others at a whim, even if it's only over a fit of anger or perhaps just a simple misunderstanding. And once it's done, that trust can never truly be gotten back.

Until this is done then a guild will never truly have an owner until only one guild leader remains. Making every guild in this game with more than one guild leader like a game of survivor until the last guild leader is kicked from the island.

I implore any developers of this game that may read this to please take this message to heart. Please remove the ability to kick or demote a guild leader by other guild leaders unless that guild leader has been inactive for an extended amount of time! Also to prevent mistakes, add a confirmation prompt that needs to be accepted every time you try to promote a member to a position that you are unable to demote them from.

asterotg · August 2016

While it should be impossible to demote an active guild leader without his consent, there should be the possibility to kick/ demote everyone after a certain time.

My beta guild lost most of the original members over the time and I decided to not accept new members, bc I did not want the grief of equipping new players time after time and losing time and gear I gave them, when they stop playing. 2 out of dozens of players I gave enchants etc bothered to give them back to me before they stopped playing, against our agreement, that I just want to get the things back, if they decide to stop playing.

We had promoted most long time players to guild leader. After playing alone for some time I kicked/ demoted everyone but the founding members, bc I use the guild vault as personal stash.

Here is my scenario AGAINST your strict exclusion of demoting guild leaders. As a fact, a former guild member (I dont remember if he had leader position) started playing again. I met hm by chance, when I visited the Ts of his new guild. If he would still be leader, bc I was not able to kick/ demote him, he would get online after 2 years and have unlimited access to my vault containing enchants etc for millions of AD. I would have to discuss rights and fear plunder from someone who played for a few months in beta and after release and who contributed nothing to this (former) guild.

Before someone claims, that I have no right to the guild either, I founded it with some friends and bought every single bank vault, except the first 3, these were common contribution by the founding members.

bigredbrent · August 2016

I just don't think they should have ever been promoted to guild leader in the first place if you thought it was ever going to be a problem.

Unknown · August 2016

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artanisen · August 2016

I can understand. Been there in that situation on other games.
In one guild really long time ago i heavily invested in the guild
ask to be promoted so i can do more and got kicked out. So i vowed
to never invest in guilds any more. I only contribute scrap.

Loyalty has little worth these days.

Edit: but i do agree about kicking/demoting GL's.

greywynd · August 2016

My guild has 3 equal leaders. We have 2 major things going for us: we're family and we're friends. I tend to be the most active with the guild and I will do what I want with it. If it is something major that needs doing we discuss it first before moving forward.

demonmonger · August 2016

I'm a guild leader, when my computer blew up and I was gone for a few months, one of my guild members promoted themselves to guild leader to stop others from robbing guild bank. I was greatful to see this upon my return and let him keep his position along side me. There will always be good and bad apples.

kreatyve · August 2016

If the devs did what you asked, it would be too easily abused. And what would the do with guilds that have inactive guild leaders if you can't demote them?

Unknown · August 2016

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demonmonger · August 2016

A guild vote can be manipulated... what if one person invites 50 of his alts and takes over?

hustin1 · August 2016

I swear, it's frightening how many horror stories I keep hearing about other guilds. It's so important when online to be a good judge of people's character (or make friends with someone else who is). All I can say is, look for a guild that is being led in an honorable, respectful, fair manner -- or resolve to create one yourself. There are not enough of them.

artanisen · August 2016

1. Probably need to add Supreme leader rank that overshadows
- guild leaders. One Person rank.

2. Guilds need to be account bound and not bound to characters.
- I find it little frustrating about having 20+ characters joining one guild
- taking up space in a guild.

bigredbrent · August 2016

I would not mind them just removing the character limit all together and only leaving the account limit. I also would not mind them raising the account limit some too, but both of these suggestions are a little off topic.

sm0ld3r · August 2016

kreatyve said:
If the devs did what you asked, it would be too easily abused. And what would the do with guilds that have inactive guild leaders if you can't demote them?

How can you abuse that? All they need to do is allow anyone that hasn't been active for 90 days to be demoted by GL.

kjwashington · August 2016

If I may make a suggestion, it sounds like you created your guild's website.

If I were you, I would threaten to leave the guild and take down the website if he continues to refuse to talk to you like a civilized adult. First, remove everyone else's permissions to edit the website, to show you can do it. If he just removes you from the fleet, do as much damage as you can do.

You'll either get what you want, or you'll show him what being a bratty child gets him.

kreatyve · August 2016

Point is - do not promote people to rank 7 unless you absolutely trust them. If you are in a guild, think long and hard about how much you trust the Rank 7s before you get promoted to rank 7.

sneak · August 2016

kjwashington said:
If I may make a suggestion, it sounds like you created your guild's website.

If I were you, I would threaten to leave the guild and take down the website if he continues to refuse to talk to you like a civilized adult. First, remove everyone else's permissions to edit the website, to show you can do it. If he just removes you from the fleet, do as much damage as you can do.

You'll either get what you want, or you'll show him what being a bratty child gets him.

There's no getting that guy to speak to him like a civilized adult. After all of this occurred, Brent did change the nameserver information and the other guy freaked out and was doing things that were extremely rude and over-reacting to the entire situation, simply because he doesn't understand how DNS or propagation work. He took it as an act of sabotage when it was merely Brent continue to further disassociate himself with the guild.

Before I knew of this happening I already had the opinion in this game that it makes no sense to allow multiple people to be at the absolute top. Only the person who created the guild should be permitted to change his own rank and it shouldn't be possible for him to set anyone else to his exact rank while still holding the rank. He would need to forfeit his absolute top rank in order to give it to another player. There always has to be someone at the absolute top, as much as people want everything to be pure democracy it just doesn't work in online gaming.

Regarding inactive guilds due to leaders being inactive... so what? Those members can leave and join another guild or every so often for inactive guilds where the leader doesn't login and members are gone or not logging in, maybe there could be an automatic deletion. Certain criteria could be set to where an amount of activity is required in order for a guild to remain in the game.

Or how about leaving the guilds in creation forever and if a user tries to create a guild with that name they will be notified that they will be responded to within 24 hours with information on creating the guild. As soon as this request to create a guild with the same name is made, the inactive player who created the guild receives an email which he must respond to within 24 hours by selecting to keep or disband the guild. Depending on his selection, a message will be sent to the player who tried to create the guild. If the old guild leader doesn't respond within 24 hours, a message is sent to the player anyways stating that the guild creator didn't respond and this new player has permission to create a guild under that name. If/once the player decides to create a guild with that name, it would disband the old one by renaming it to something generic like guildname1 that way if the original person wanted to come back or people were still using the guild/coffer it would remain but with a generic name.

bigredbrent · August 2016

kjwashington said:
If I may make a suggestion, it sounds like you created your guild's website.

If I were you, I would threaten to leave the guild and take down the website if he continues to refuse to talk to you like a civilized adult. First, remove everyone else's permissions to edit the website, to show you can do it. If he just removes you from the fleet, do as much damage as you can do.

You'll either get what you want, or you'll show him what being a bratty child gets him.

He made sure that he had ownership of the site and removed all my permissions when he demoted me.

sneak#6191 said:

Regarding inactive guilds due to leaders being inactive... so what? Those members can leave and join another guild or every so often for inactive guilds where the leader doesn't login and members are gone or not logging in, maybe there could be an automatic deletion. Certain criteria could be set to where an amount of activity is required in order for a guild to remain in the game.

There already is a method built into the game to take leadership if the guild leader is inactive for long enough.

sockmunkey · August 2016

sneak#6191 said:

Regarding inactive guilds due to leaders being inactive... so what? Those members can leave and join another guild or every so often for inactive guilds where the leader doesn't login and members are gone or not logging in, maybe there could be an automatic deletion. Certain criteria could be set to where an amount of activity is required in order for a guild to remain in the game.

You lost me on that one, not with strongholds. You honestly believe that a guild should just be deleted...automatically if the leader fails to log in often enough? I guess everyone in the guild who slaved for resources is just out of luck. All the boons and perks just gone. And what would happen if it was a helm or gauntlet guild in an alliance with other guilds under it. I guess they are out of luck too.

It takes a large number of people, or several very dedicated people, to build up a stronghold. All that shouldn't be tossed aside simply due to one person, who either isnt willing or able to play anymore. The system Cryptic has for replacing absent leaders works just fine. There is no reason to change it. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs problem.

demondog1990 · August 2016

asterotg said:
If he would still be leader, bc I was not able to kick/ demote him, he would get online after 2 years and have unlimited access to my vault containing enchants etc for millions of AD.

afew afew months the guild would be passed over to you anyway, though i do agree there should be a way to demote a guild leader it should not be the right of 1 such guild leader, maybe a voting system or cryptic admins to do this, Co leaders should not have this right!

bigredbrent · August 2016

kreatyve said:
If the devs did what you asked, it would be too easily abused. And what would the do with guilds that have inactive guild leaders if you can't demote them?

What would be too easily abused?

Also, they already have a method built into the game to take leadership if the guild leader is inactive for long enough. This would just prevent the old leader from being kicked or demoted by the new leader. Or they could allow a guild leader to be demoted only if they have been inactive for long enough to allow another guild leader to be promoted anyway.

asterotg · August 2016

sneak#6191 said:

kjwashington said:
If I may make a suggestion, it sounds like you created your guild's website.

If I were you, I would threaten to leave the guild and take down the website if he continues to refuse to talk to you like a civilized adult. First, remove everyone else's permissions to edit the website, to show you can do it. If he just removes you from the fleet, do as much damage as you can do.

You'll either get what you want, or you'll show him what being a bratty child gets him.
There's no getting that guy to speak to him like a civilized adult. After all of this occurred, Brent did change the nameserver information and the other guy freaked out and was doing things that were extremely rude and over-reacting to the entire situation, simply because he doesn't understand how DNS or propagation work. He took it as an act of sabotage when it was merely Brent continue to further disassociate himself with the guild.

Before I knew of this happening I already had the opinion in this game that it makes no sense to allow multiple people to be at the absolute top. Only the person who created the guild should be permitted to change his own rank and it shouldn't be possible for him to set anyone else to his exact rank while still holding the rank. He would need to forfeit his absolute top rank in order to give it to another player. There always has to be someone at the absolute top, as much as people want everything to be pure democracy it just doesn't work in online gaming.

Regarding inactive guilds due to leaders being inactive... so what? Those members can leave and join another guild or every so often for inactive guilds where the leader doesn't login and members are gone or not logging in, maybe there could be an automatic deletion. Certain criteria could be set to where an amount of activity is required in order for a guild to remain in the game.

Or how about leaving the guilds in creation forever and if a user tries to create a guild with that name they will be notified that they will be responded to within 24 hours with information on creating the guild. As soon as this request to create a guild with the same name is made, the inactive player who created the guild receives an email which he must respond to within 24 hours by selecting to keep or disband the guild. Depending on his selection, a message will be sent to the player who tried to create the guild. If the old guild leader doesn't respond within 24 hours, a message is sent to the player anyways stating that the guild creator didn't respond and this new player has permission to create a guild under that name. If/once the player decides to create a guild with that name, it would disband the old one by renaming it to something generic like guildname1 that way if the original person wanted to come back or people were still using the guild/coffer it would remain but with a generic name.

Is this for real or a troll post?

Yes, I will leave my R20 Stronghold Guild, if the guild leader is inactive. I did neither invest time nor any ADs in it myself.

Furthermore any decent guild leader, who cant respond in 24 hours deserves to get his guild demolished. If you dont want to lose your SH R 20, you cant either have a job, a live or, god forbid, holidays.

BTW, THIS was sarcasm.

wylonus · August 2016

why disbanding a guild? leader should pick whoever is most active to take over, unless something happen with PC or console broke, those take time to replace, these inactive guild should be in limbo until reactivate.

i had took over an old guild in other game and use for storage. the guild storage was added long after old members left, so i got lot of empty slots to use. it was base on ranks the guilds earned from killing raid bosses.

sneak · August 2016

24 hours is an example.. calm your panties

Unknown · August 2016

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diogene0 · August 2016

Guild leaders can be an annoyance just like anyone else. The option to kick them has to be available.

asterotg · August 2016

diogene0 said:
Guild leaders can be an annoyance just like anyone else. The option to kick them has to be available.

No, If I were a guild leader with SH R 20 and they would introduce this system, I would kick everyone except my closest friends. I kicked all the inactive players except my closest friends from my old guild, to make sure, that no one will plunder my vaults, if I dont play for a while.

Take a beta guild with SH 20 and all the vaults, expensive things in guild coffers. Many of the old players left, maybe 1 of 100 beta players or less are still playing. Lets say there are 5 old timers left and the 145 other accounts are newer players lured by fame and boons. Any majority vote would open the doors to abuse.

If you dont like your guild leader, leave the guild.

diogene0 · August 2016

asterotg said:

diogene0 said:
Guild leaders can be an annoyance just like anyone else. The option to kick them has to be available.
No, If I were a guild leader with SH R 20 and they would introduce this system, I would kick everyone except my closest friends. I kicked all the inactive players except my closest friends from my old guild, to make sure, that no one will plunder my vaults, if I dont play for a while.

Take a beta guild with SH 20 and all the vaults, expensive things in guild coffers. Many of the old players left, maybe 1 of 100 beta players or less are still playing. Lets say there are 5 old timers left and the 145 other accounts are newer players lured by fame and boons. Any majority vote would open the doors to abuse.

If you dont like your guild leader, leave the guild.

I'm sorry but the game, and to some extent, the world, does not revolve around your little person and your very own needs. Guilds are living things. People come and go. Leaders come and go. People change. So do leaders. There must be an option to get rid off the problematic people in that kind of communities, be it a rank 1 or a rank 7. If you don't like taking care of a community then don't become a guild leader in the first place. The current system works and should be kept. Demoting an annoying rank 7, whoever it is, is a necessary feature, or else no guild would be a good place to be in.

asterotg · August 2016

diogene0 said:

asterotg said:

diogene0 said:
Guild leaders can be an annoyance just like anyone else. The option to kick them has to be available.
No, If I were a guild leader with SH R 20 and they would introduce this system, I would kick everyone except my closest friends. I kicked all the inactive players except my closest friends from my old guild, to make sure, that no one will plunder my vaults, if I dont play for a while.

Take a beta guild with SH 20 and all the vaults, expensive things in guild coffers. Many of the old players left, maybe 1 of 100 beta players or less are still playing. Lets say there are 5 old timers left and the 145 other accounts are newer players lured by fame and boons. Any majority vote would open the doors to abuse.

If you dont like your guild leader, leave the guild.

I'm sorry but the game, and to some extent, the world, does not revolve around your little person and your very own needs. Guilds are living things. People come and go. Leaders come and go. People change. So do leaders. There must be an option to get rid off the problematic people in that kind of communities, be it a rank 1 or a rank 7. If you don't like taking care of a community then don't become a guild leader in the first place. The current system works and should be kept. Demoting an annoying rank 7, whoever it is, is a necessary feature, or else no guild would be a good place to be in.

I think you dont know how it works. Only R 7 can demote R 7. If there is only one guild leader there is no way to demote him, if he does log in once a month. Just idle R 7s can get demoted by a lower rank.

So I am egoistic, when I see a reason behind the status quo and you are enlightened asking for major changes no one but you and some other ppl want. Some illusions of grandeur here?

The concept behind guild is not democratic, never was and hopefully never will be. You can create your own little guild with your own little rules. Dont try to force them on others.

This is not like a country, where everyone contributes, but like a firm. Someone founded it, created it and payed for it, its HIS firm. If you dont like it, quit.

mahburg · August 2016

asterotg said:

diogene0 said:

asterotg said:

diogene0 said:
Guild leaders can be an annoyance just like anyone else. The option to kick them has to be available.
No, If I were a guild leader with SH R 20 and they would introduce this system, I would kick everyone except my closest friends. I kicked all the inactive players except my closest friends from my old guild, to make sure, that no one will plunder my vaults, if I dont play for a while.

Take a beta guild with SH 20 and all the vaults, expensive things in guild coffers. Many of the old players left, maybe 1 of 100 beta players or less are still playing. Lets say there are 5 old timers left and the 145 other accounts are newer players lured by fame and boons. Any majority vote would open the doors to abuse.

If you dont like your guild leader, leave the guild.

I'm sorry but the game, and to some extent, the world, does not revolve around your little person and your very own needs. Guilds are living things. People come and go. Leaders come and go. People change. So do leaders. There must be an option to get rid off the problematic people in that kind of communities, be it a rank 1 or a rank 7. If you don't like taking care of a community then don't become a guild leader in the first place. The current system works and should be kept. Demoting an annoying rank 7, whoever it is, is a necessary feature, or else no guild would be a good place to be in.
I think you dont know how it works. Only R 7 can demote R 7. If there is only one guild leader there is no way to demote him, if he does log in once a month. Just idle R 7s can get demoted by a lower rank.

So I am egoistic, when I see a reason behind the status quo and you are enlightened asking for major changes no one but you and some other ppl want. Some illusions of grandeur here?

The concept behind guild is not democratic, never was and hopefully never will be. You can create your own little guild with your own little rules. Dont try to force them on others.

This is not like a country, where everyone contributes, but like a firm. Someone founded it, created it and payed for it, its HIS firm. If you dont like it, quit.

Indeed, why would any GL invest months and months of effort and treasure to have someone kick him from his creation, as you say there is always the door!

minotaur2857 · August 2016

kreatyve said:
If the devs did what you asked, it would be too easily abused. And what would the do with guilds that have inactive guild leaders if you can't demote them?

Other games handle this, guild leaders can be demoted after a period of inactivity, in some this can be set by the guild with a minimum to prevent abuse. Yes you only have to log in once in a while to prevent it.

One way round it would be for the person clicking to found the guild to nominate one or more people at the time of foundation as founders, they are rank 7 and cannot be demoted. Founder status cannot be granted after that, but can be passed on.

Please remove the ability to kick or demote a guild leader!

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