You'd think reading this thread, the Conqueror DPS tree of Guardian Fighters just came out last week... Conqs have always been a striker/leader. Just no one gave a darn till they showed some effectiveness then a few GWF paingiver junkies starting spamming the boards with nerf-them/buff-me garbage every 20 minutes.
The power creep,buffs, raids, and bugs are making the GF look like a PvE DPS master and that's not correct if you bother to understand why the numbers end up the way they are. People are blindly calling for nerfs to things they don't understand for completely selfish reasons. So they can stay unchallenged on top of the paingiver charts? Is that all this game has left to offer? Whining about DPS?
Are some of you really playing for the sole reason of comparing the paingiver charts? I really looks that way to me. Don't even try to play the moral high-ground in the name of 'balance,' as that's obviously total rubbish. It's all about a naked desire for DPS supremacy, from the same 4 GWFs every hour and every day.
Nice modifying the wiki then calling a 'typo.' Wow, to stoop so low..
They are being referred to as leaders due to their selfheal abilities.. That's the reason why in NW, the GF is a leader (fighter's recovery, etc.) / controller (fls, bull rush, etc.). This was stated by a developer and it wasn't a typo, because people were asking if it is a defender or a leader.
Also wiki pages are not the best indicator to prove if a claim is true, because these sites can be edited by anybody and their grandparents (like you just showed us).
Sorry, 'bro'.. i am right and you are wrong. Just ask a developer what the GF is, you'll get the exact same answer i just gave you > Controller/leader.
Take care, Mr. Wiki typo editor
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
GF is supposed to have just enough damage to taunt the enemies and hold aggro. How about for every feat that gives bonus damage, the feat also lowers survivability. So, you want to be DPS, you lose all tankiness. The capstone should also lower DR from Shield.
"lose all tankiness" . . .this is coming from the same person who wanted GWF's to keep their DPS and be able to tank . . . even Orcus. right
fair enough, should be lower DPS than pure striker classes, but just enough to hold aggro? Your generosity knows no bounds
I have had runs with GFs where they come in last on Paingiver and ones where they come in on top. If it is the case that it is not Conqueror that is the problem, and Tact and Prot GFs can do just as much damage, it has to be weapon damage and encounter damage. Not sure why then so many GFs say they can't do daily quests.
Who is saying Tact and Prot GF's can do as much damage? Are they topping paingiver are they? Really. Is this truth or made up?
Let's not limit our prolonged and coordinated attack on the DPS of GF's to just the conqueror tree, let's go for the tank paths as well. I think I understand why you are asking for GWF's to be tankier, cause if they nerf GF's like a few of you want (after the OP nerfs) - the game is going to need a decent tank that is still fun to play
Leader Leaders are healers, buffers and debuffers. Their powers support the party's success either by healing damage taken, preventing damage from being taken or increasing the damage enemies take.
Fighter's recovery doesn't do any of that !
Have fun digging through years of forum posts. Or just ask a developer, like i said above. I explained why the GF in NW is a Leader/Controller, already. It's not rocket science to understand it...
GF is supposed to have just enough damage to taunt the enemies and hold aggro.
How would you even determine that? Holding aggro is a job for a group setting, and most GFs in that setting only run one damage encounter with 2 buffing encounters. So is this minimum aggro with 3 damaging powers slotted or less? Because if its less then GFs can do too much damage for your plan by simply slotting more damage powers. And if its tuned to 3 damage powers then GFs wont be able to buff and hold aggro.
This seems a really poorly thought out idea.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Sorry for my english if I understood something wrong. After playing for guardian fighter I found out that for well aggro it doesn't metter how much damage your guardian fighter deals. Even my guardian fighter with 3k il and with about 6k power have absolutely no troubles with aggro. I use [Knight's valor]+[Iron warrior]+[Reinforced threat] and I always hits foes by [Aggravating strike]. Even without [Enhanced Mark] monsters looks just at me.
So you don't use ITF, sort of explains why your suggesting to nerf it so hard and instead buff Iron Warrior.
I like the idea of limiting buffs, but not just the GF's it needs to be balanced and across the board so one class doesn't get overly nerfed. Diminishing returns and a hard cap sound OK (cause that doesn't overly gimp new characters) but 20% for ITF sounds too low. Atm for me ITF is around 70% DPS buff (not including DC synergy), a more than 50% reduction seems excessive.
...
Absolutely, the DR that enhances ITF should be limited to 80%. You read about ppl with 150% that is adding to ITF, that doesn't sound WAI to me.
My suggestion for max 20% is based on idea that ITF is encounter (one of many) with decently short cooldown.
Let me make some comparison with some numbers of DC.
First reference is Hallow Ground daily. This daily buffs up to 35% and it is far from overpowered, in same time majority of people agree it is very useful.
Second reference is Righteous DC buff with Condemn Gaze and Bear you Sins effects, it is 15% and 10% damage party wide boosts, DC need some conditions to archive these effects. People are excited about these exclusive Righteous feat buffs despite it is just 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.265 value in damage formula, nevertheless people "see huge difference with Righteous".
Third reference are DC encounters. Best buff encounter for DC would be empowered Break Spirit with 40% and more wide-spread empowered Forgemaster Hammer buff is 20%. To archive empowered condition DC has to collect divinity, then convert divinity to empowered and wait for that specific encounter cool down end.
i do agree with dfnce, paladin brings also 20% via aura of courage with endgear, some lowered cds and 25% of his power ~20% when speced for it and with endgear, and gf has 80-150% depending on party on a keypress
Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost" zhentarim-warlock-companion
I like the idea of limiting buffs, but not just the GF's it needs to be balanced and across the board so one class doesn't get overly nerfed. Diminishing returns and a hard cap sound OK (cause that doesn't overly gimp new characters) but 20% for ITF sounds too low. Atm for me ITF is around 70% DPS buff (not including DC synergy), a more than 50% reduction seems excessive.
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Absolutely, the DR that enhances ITF should be limited to 80%. You read about ppl with 150% that is adding to ITF, that doesn't sound WAI to me.
My suggestion for max 20% is based on idea that ITF is encounter (one of many) with decently short cooldown.
Let me make some comparison with some numbers of DC.
First reference is Hallow Ground daily. This daily buffs up to 35% and it is far from overpowered, in same time majority of people agree it is very useful.
Second reference is Righteous DC buff with Condemn Gaze and Bear you Sins effects, it is 15% and 10% damage party wide boosts, DC need some conditions to archive these effects. People are excited about these exclusive Righteous feat buffs despite it is just 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.265 value in damage formula, nevertheless people "see huge difference with Righteous".
Third reference are DC encounters. Best buff encounter for DC would be empowered Break Spirit with 40% and more wide-spread empowered Forgemaster Hammer buff is 20%. To archive empowered condition DC has to collect divinity, then convert divinity to empowered and wait for that specific encounter cool down end.
I have a GF and a righteous DC. If you compare the skills, dont forget, that HG adds DR and is a dmg buff, DG buffs, heals and deals dmg and BtS is a dmg skills. On the other hand ItF buffs and ... makes you run faster.
Not one class would slot a skill with a 20% party wide dmg buff and no other effect.
Most TRs dont use wicked reminder and most HRs dont slot thorn ward. These skills have a general debuff on bosses (not just party) and deal dmg. But sure ITF is OP, lets make it useless.
I have had runs with GFs where they come in last on Paingiver and ones where they come in on top. If it is the case that it is not Conqueror that is the problem, and Tact and Prot GFs can do just as much damage, it has to be weapon damage and encounter damage. Not sure why then so many GFs say they can't do daily quests.
A few things to this. You did not detailed ILV and companion setup/gear. A typical GF progression for PvE endgame dungeons looks like: 1. up to ~1800 ILv: Protector. Not b/c keeping aggro but b/c of surviving especially at bosses: a. keeping up guard longer - 2 feats b. have increased DR - KV feat c. have increased DR by more AC - feat d. debuff attacker damage by geting hit from it - capstone feat e. increased deflect - 2 feats The rest are buffing the GF powers a bit. This path is OK to survive while doing dailies, but a 1.8k GF has low DR/damage/crit from gear. Even w/ ITF - no external DR buffs - the damage is low. It does not mean GF can't do daily quests, it means it takes extrem long to finish them (same as support DCs). GF is still learning how to tank/survive. Usually tries to be in turtle mode.
2. 1.8k-2.2k ILv: Tactitian. The party buffer, some even stay on this path instead of Conq. For full buffer though GF should slot Recovery instead of Crit/Power. Now usually have enough DR and HP to survive at bosses w/o the prot capstone and feated KV. Guard meter still can be an issue but can be compensated by Prot feat. It is already reasonably fast from 2k+ to do dailies. GF is already experienced how to tank/survive (hopefully). Gf is still learning block/power rotations b/c of the difference between Prot and Tact feats but can do it w/o big mistakes.
3. 2,2k+ (especially from 2.5k+): Conqueror. High DR/power/crit from gear. The extra buff from capstone is used effectively since knows the block/power rotations and dungeon mechanics. Daily quests are fast and easy.
One more quite important things : 1. IV vs SM. SM has the possibility to attack w/o fear for 6 seconds after a daily power. IV must go back into turtle <- almost no attacking powers can be used except block at wills. 2. In dungeons there is usually one party member who is ALWAYS buffed by DC and it is the tank. Where were the others - escpecially ranged party members - during the fights?
As you haven't wrote so maybe you don't even know the paragorn path, ILv, comps (bonding????) and mainly experience of the GFs it is hard to say anything on what was the difference. But I do remember I had troubles doing dailies in my range of 1.6k-1.8k as Prot and up to 2k as Tact not b/c of dying but b/c of the time it took.
As I already wrote, FIX ITF to cap Damage Increase at min(GF's DR*100%; 100%) at rank4 (25%/50%/75% at rank 1/2/3). Fix CS which interacts in a non-WAI way w/ Fey and Steel Blitz. Fix the Paingiver chart to not log attacks from others to GF while CS is up. Once all are done, check the DPS of GF - just like LoL set fix and GWF damage.
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kacsaneverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
My suggestion for max 20% is based on idea that ITF is encounter (one of many) with decently short cooldown.
Let me make some comparison with some numbers of DC.
First reference is Hallow Ground daily. This daily buffs up to 35% and it is far from overpowered, in same time majority of people agree it is very useful.
Second reference is Righteous DC buff with Condemn Gaze and Bear you Sins effects, it is 15% and 10% damage party wide boosts, DC need some conditions to archive these effects. People are excited about these exclusive Righteous feat buffs despite it is just 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.265 value in damage formula, nevertheless people "see huge difference with Righteous".
Third reference are DC encounters. Best buff encounter for DC would be empowered Break Spirit with 40% and more wide-spread empowered Forgemaster Hammer buff is 20%. To archive empowered condition DC has to collect divinity, then convert divinity to empowered and wait for that specific encounter cool down end.
/OFF Let me reflect it w/ a DC as main. HG grants 40% DI and 35% DR at rank 4. It is very-very powerfull, that's why the majority agree it is a very usefull power. e-BtS grants max 30% DI at the same radius as HG. e-FF grants max 15% DI, self + 4 allies.
Ri DC can keep up ByS non-stop w/ FotG. Ri DC can also keep up CG w/ divine mode powers (d-DG/d-DL) only. As an Ri (btw also as FF or Virt) the main task of the DC is to have Divinity all the time and use divine mode spells non-stop while normal mode powers are on CD. DO DCs have easier time w/ it, but not impossible as AC. This 26,5% DI (x1.265) is a non-stop buff applied just by attacking w/ any encounter and multiplies w/ other buffs like n-DG 17,5% DR debuff, d-DG 12,5% DI buff, e-BtS 30% DI buff or e-FF 15% DI buff. W/ n-DG, d-DG and e-BtS it is 117% damage increase (x2.17). And it is on top of the party defensing buffs like 17,5% DR from n-DG, 17,5% Damage Debuff (DD) by d-DG and 50% DD by (e-)BtS -> 76% (x0.34) reduced damage can be kept up ~80% of the time. W/ HG it is even more: 40% DI -> 204% (x3.04) DI AND 35% DR -> 80% (x0.2) reduced damage. But OK, it is a daily.
Ri/DC also grants (if feated so) 25% of its power passively to party members - not self what is a shame.
/ON The fact that an encounter is not working as intended and/or interacts in a silly way w/ other things does not mean it is OP. It is BUGED. <- LoL set as a reminder.
tone down itf yes but not able to buff hiself with it will be the first class ever dont get benefit from his own buff..............
For example [Knight's valor] doesn't provide 50% defence for guardian fighter
I writing about "not able to buff hiself" because when damage buff was added to [Into the fray] there was no nerf of guardian fighter's damage. So, I think there are two ways: 1) Make guardian fighter not able to buff himself. 2) Make guardian fighter able to buff himself but to decrease all the damage that guardian fighter deals.
Second way affects all builds of guardian fighter. It affects even thous who doesn not use [into the fray]. And there is no need to nerf them.
That is why I suggested first way. To solve problem with crazy damage I suggested to nerf just that builds of guardian fighters who use into the fray. Because it will not affect other builds whose damage is already balanced.
KV isn't a buff ...
And this sounds like a PvP problem. No one plays PvP. If PvP wants their GF problem fixed it's going to have to not affect PvE significantly.
They are being referred to as leaders because of their selfheal abilities.. That's the reason why in NW, the GF is a leader (fighter's recovery) / controller (fls, bull rush). This was stated by a developer and it wasn't a typo, because people were asking if it is a defender or a leader.
Also wiki pages are not the best indicator to prove if some claim is true, since these sites can be edited by anybody and their grandparents.
Sorry, 'bro'.. i am right and you are wrong. Just ask a developer what the GF is, you'll receive the exact same answer i just gave you > Controller/leader.
Take care, Mr. Wiki typo editor
what devs said that, can you bring him here?
Leader Leaders are healers, buffers and debuffers. Their powers support the party's success either by healing damage taken, preventing damage from being taken or increasing the damage enemies take.
Fighter's recovery doesn't do any of that !
But KV and ITF do. Hell have you looked at tacticians paragon feats? It's all about control, preventing damage to your party, and increasing your party's damage.
Hell, I could replace that with "Flame Strike doesn't do any of that" but that wouldn't make any sense just like it makes no sense to use Fighter's recovery to try to pigeon hole GF.
If PvP wants their GF problem fixed it's going to have to not affect PvE significantly.
I would be fine with that. Knight's Challenge in PvP is not fair. ITF in PvP is not fair. I'm not denying any of that.
My concern is that blanket-nerfs to the DPS of the GF class will do much more damage then people that don't play GFs in PvE realize it will. Outside of fast bursty raids like Tiamat, my solo DPS on my GF is much less then my GWF that has an il of 2k. I'm agruing against this silly and misguided nerf crusade (by the same 4 GWFs every thread) because much of the propaganda being presented is based on GF DPS in bursty raids where it's fast 10 second mini-battles with 100 buffs and debuffs. Almost all the info given has been based on the same 3 GFs. But the experience and evidence given to the contrary by other GFs on this board is straw-man'ed, insulted or bullied into silence. Nice way make friends and influence people.
The nerf-cadre is ultra focused on wining paingiver with their one-dimensional thinking and does not account for the negative impacts to the game. If a GF can't do anything outside of a 5-man dungeon (that are becoming extinct in this game) no one is going to want to play them, further forcing this game into a 1 or 2-class game. Cryptic already killed the GF once before. I really hope Cryptic thinks very long and hard before excepting feedback from individuals that put their own paingiver/DPS standing first and conveniently leave out other important variables. Like 99.99% of GFs will never see the DPS numbers in the screenshots being falsely presented as being widespread when infact the impact is so small, you can list the individuals by name.
Now really, use your brain for a second and think about the big picture. Is 3 DPS GFs as game-breaking as the nerf-crusaders say? With this game with so many bugs and problems. Some of us can't even change maps without the game crashing, or playing in ultra low settings. Bugs x 1,000,000 I have to say that the amount of noise generated for this topic does not equal the need at this time.
This whole fallacy is a scam. Not even a good scam, but a send your $ to the prince of Nigeria and triple your investment scam.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
and I agree. It's not that I think things don't need some changing, its just how it is gone about and how many of the GF's it affects. The majority of GF's don't need their DPS reduced. Bring in some diminishing returns and hard caps that are class based to cap GF's lower than the strikers - that doesn't unfairly affect the tanks and low IL ppl.
Yeah things are too easy, but we are talking about content that is 50% lower than our ILs. It should be easy, as well as balancing we need harder stuff. If dungeons are made harder simply by gimping the tank, that's not going to be that enjoyable for those of us who mostly pug it. The general population aren't that forgiving of multiple wipes and its the tank that gets blamed most of the time.
rememeber that GF's are also forced to grind out countless dailies etc. to get all the boons that they need to be competitive at end game. Don't know whether ppl have noticed but nearly all the dailies etc. are DPS dependent - there are only one or two in EE where you have to go out and take 250K damage, everything else requires DPS. My GF has all its boons, I don't need any DPS to grind out boons, but others do. I don't know how you balance that and also balance PvP.
GF no defender...getting confused maybe they should rewrite the role of the GF as a Defender/leader/controler/striker, since he can do all of that
Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companionseasy to understand -->that´s my GF at first degree atm, being protector
Leaders are healers, buffers and debuffers. Their powers support the party's success either by healing damage taken, preventing damage from being taken or increasing the damage enemies take. -->GF provides very good buffs and debuffs atm, ITF, KV, ToI, tactitian capstone
Controllers influence fights by controlling either the field of battle or targets directly. Their role is to ensure threats are minimized or handled efficiently. -->aggreed also, that´s what a GF can do
Strikers specialize in mobility and damage output. These combatants focus on disposing threats as quickly as possible by doing as much damage as they can, as quickly as they can, without enemies retaliating. --> yes, my GF can do that pretty good as conquerer, the way to 70 was the easiest next to the GWF, immense burst and following the data from a known source ingame, he is striker N° 1
suggestions: Tone down ITF first, that´s the only obvious suggestion from my side, because I do not want to get focussed by the mob...
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Conqs have always been a striker/leader. Just no one gave a darn till they showed some effectiveness then a few GWF paingiver junkies starting spamming the boards with nerf-them/buff-me garbage every 20 minutes.
The power creep,buffs, raids, and bugs are making the GF look like a PvE DPS master and that's not correct if you bother to understand why the numbers end up the way they are.
People are blindly calling for nerfs to things they don't understand for completely selfish reasons. So they can stay unchallenged on top of the paingiver charts? Is that all this game has left to offer? Whining about DPS?
Are some of you really playing for the sole reason of comparing the paingiver charts? I really looks that way to me. Don't even try to play the moral high-ground in the name of 'balance,' as that's obviously total rubbish. It's all about a naked desire for DPS supremacy, from the same 4 GWFs every hour and every day.
Nice modifying the wiki then calling a 'typo.' Wow, to stoop so low..
Also wiki pages are not the best indicator to prove if a claim is true, because these sites can be edited by anybody and their grandparents (like you just showed us).
Sorry, 'bro'.. i am right and you are wrong. Just ask a developer what the GF is, you'll get the exact same answer i just gave you > Controller/leader.
Take care, Mr. Wiki typo editor
fair enough, should be lower DPS than pure striker classes, but just enough to hold aggro? Your generosity knows no bounds Who is saying Tact and Prot GF's can do as much damage? Are they topping paingiver are they? Really. Is this truth or made up?
Let's not limit our prolonged and coordinated attack on the DPS of GF's to just the conqueror tree, let's go for the tank paths as well. I think I understand why you are asking for GWF's to be tankier, cause if they nerf GF's like a few of you want (after the OP nerfs) - the game is going to need a decent tank that is still fun to play
Have fun digging through years of forum posts. Or just ask a developer, like i said above. I explained why the GF in NW is a Leader/Controller, already. It's not rocket science to understand it...
No, no agenda at all. It's all about balance... right?
This seems a really poorly thought out idea.
Let me make some comparison with some numbers of DC.
First reference is Hallow Ground daily. This daily buffs up to 35% and it is far from overpowered, in same time majority of people agree it is very useful.
Second reference is Righteous DC buff with Condemn Gaze and Bear you Sins effects, it is 15% and 10% damage party wide boosts, DC need some conditions to archive these effects. People are excited about these exclusive Righteous feat buffs despite it is just 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.265 value in damage formula, nevertheless people "see huge difference with Righteous".
Third reference are DC encounters. Best buff encounter for DC would be empowered Break Spirit with 40% and more wide-spread empowered Forgemaster Hammer buff is 20%. To archive empowered condition DC has to collect divinity, then convert divinity to empowered and wait for that specific encounter cool down end.
— (The unwritten rule)
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
Not one class would slot a skill with a 20% party wide dmg buff and no other effect.
Most TRs dont use wicked reminder and most HRs dont slot thorn ward. These skills have a general debuff on bosses (not just party) and deal dmg. But sure ITF is OP, lets make it useless.
1. up to ~1800 ILv: Protector. Not b/c keeping aggro but b/c of surviving especially at bosses:
a. keeping up guard longer - 2 feats
b. have increased DR - KV feat
c. have increased DR by more AC - feat
d. debuff attacker damage by geting hit from it - capstone feat
e. increased deflect - 2 feats
The rest are buffing the GF powers a bit.
This path is OK to survive while doing dailies, but a 1.8k GF has low DR/damage/crit from gear. Even w/ ITF - no external DR buffs - the damage is low. It does not mean GF can't do daily quests, it means it takes extrem long to finish them (same as support DCs).
GF is still learning how to tank/survive. Usually tries to be in turtle mode.
2. 1.8k-2.2k ILv: Tactitian. The party buffer, some even stay on this path instead of Conq. For full buffer though GF should slot Recovery instead of Crit/Power. Now usually have enough DR and HP to survive at bosses w/o the prot capstone and feated KV. Guard meter still can be an issue but can be compensated by Prot feat. It is already reasonably fast from 2k+ to do dailies.
GF is already experienced how to tank/survive (hopefully). Gf is still learning block/power rotations b/c of the difference between Prot and Tact feats but can do it w/o big mistakes.
3. 2,2k+ (especially from 2.5k+): Conqueror. High DR/power/crit from gear. The extra buff from capstone is used effectively since knows the block/power rotations and dungeon mechanics. Daily quests are fast and easy.
One more quite important things :
1. IV vs SM. SM has the possibility to attack w/o fear for 6 seconds after a daily power. IV must go back into turtle <- almost no attacking powers can be used except block at wills.
2. In dungeons there is usually one party member who is ALWAYS buffed by DC and it is the tank. Where were the others - escpecially ranged party members - during the fights?
As you haven't wrote so maybe you don't even know the paragorn path, ILv, comps (bonding????) and mainly experience of the GFs it is hard to say anything on what was the difference. But I do remember I had troubles doing dailies in my range of 1.6k-1.8k as Prot and up to 2k as Tact not b/c of dying but b/c of the time it took.
As I already wrote, FIX ITF to cap Damage Increase at min(GF's DR*100%; 100%) at rank4 (25%/50%/75% at rank 1/2/3).
Fix CS which interacts in a non-WAI way w/ Fey and Steel Blitz.
Fix the Paingiver chart to not log attacks from others to GF while CS is up.
Once all are done, check the DPS of GF - just like LoL set fix and GWF damage.
Let me reflect it w/ a DC as main.
HG grants 40% DI and 35% DR at rank 4. It is very-very powerfull, that's why the majority agree it is a very usefull power.
e-BtS grants max 30% DI at the same radius as HG.
e-FF grants max 15% DI, self + 4 allies.
Ri DC can keep up ByS non-stop w/ FotG. Ri DC can also keep up CG w/ divine mode powers (d-DG/d-DL) only. As an Ri (btw also as FF or Virt) the main task of the DC is to have Divinity all the time and use divine mode spells non-stop while normal mode powers are on CD. DO DCs have easier time w/ it, but not impossible as AC.
This 26,5% DI (x1.265) is a non-stop buff applied just by attacking w/ any encounter and multiplies w/ other buffs like n-DG 17,5% DR debuff, d-DG 12,5% DI buff, e-BtS 30% DI buff or e-FF 15% DI buff.
W/ n-DG, d-DG and e-BtS it is 117% damage increase (x2.17). And it is on top of the party defensing buffs like 17,5% DR from n-DG, 17,5% Damage Debuff (DD) by d-DG and 50% DD by (e-)BtS -> 76% (x0.34) reduced damage can be kept up ~80% of the time.
W/ HG it is even more: 40% DI -> 204% (x3.04) DI AND 35% DR -> 80% (x0.2) reduced damage. But OK, it is a daily.
Ri/DC also grants (if feated so) 25% of its power passively to party members - not self what is a shame.
/ON
The fact that an encounter is not working as intended and/or interacts in a silly way w/ other things does not mean it is OP. It is BUGED. <- LoL set as a reminder.
And this sounds like a PvP problem. No one plays PvP. If PvP wants their GF problem fixed it's going to have to not affect PvE significantly. But KV and ITF do. Hell have you looked at tacticians paragon feats? It's all about control, preventing damage to your party, and increasing your party's damage.
Hell, I could replace that with "Flame Strike doesn't do any of that" but that wouldn't make any sense just like it makes no sense to use Fighter's recovery to try to pigeon hole GF.
ITF in PvP is not fair.
I'm not denying any of that.
My concern is that blanket-nerfs to the DPS of the GF class will do much more damage then people that don't play GFs in PvE realize it will.
Outside of fast bursty raids like Tiamat, my solo DPS on my GF is much less then my GWF that has an il of 2k. I'm agruing against this silly and misguided nerf crusade (by the same 4 GWFs every thread) because much of the propaganda being presented is based on GF DPS in bursty raids where it's fast 10 second mini-battles with 100 buffs and debuffs. Almost all the info given has been based on the same 3 GFs. But the experience and evidence given to the contrary by other GFs on this board is straw-man'ed, insulted or bullied into silence. Nice way make friends and influence people.
The nerf-cadre is ultra focused on wining paingiver with their one-dimensional thinking and does not account for the negative impacts to the game. If a GF can't do anything outside of a 5-man dungeon (that are becoming extinct in this game) no one is going to want to play them, further forcing this game into a 1 or 2-class game. Cryptic already killed the GF once before. I really hope Cryptic thinks very long and hard before excepting feedback from individuals that put their own paingiver/DPS standing first and conveniently leave out other important variables. Like 99.99% of GFs will never see the DPS numbers in the screenshots being falsely presented as being widespread when infact the impact is so small, you can list the individuals by name.
Now really, use your brain for a second and think about the big picture.
Is 3 DPS GFs as game-breaking as the nerf-crusaders say? With this game with so many bugs and problems.
Some of us can't even change maps without the game crashing, or playing in ultra low settings. Bugs x 1,000,000
I have to say that the amount of noise generated for this topic does not equal the need at this time.
This whole fallacy is a scam. Not even a good scam, but a send your $ to the prince of Nigeria and triple your investment scam.
and I agree. It's not that I think things don't need some changing, its just how it is gone about and how many of the GF's it affects. The majority of GF's don't need their DPS reduced. Bring in some diminishing returns and hard caps that are class based to cap GF's lower than the strikers - that doesn't unfairly affect the tanks and low IL ppl.
@dolrey
Yeah things are too easy, but we are talking about content that is 50% lower than our ILs. It should be easy, as well as balancing we need harder stuff. If dungeons are made harder simply by gimping the tank, that's not going to be that enjoyable for those of us who mostly pug it. The general population aren't that forgiving of multiple wipes and its the tank that gets blamed most of the time.
rememeber that GF's are also forced to grind out countless dailies etc. to get all the boons that they need to be competitive at end game. Don't know whether ppl have noticed but nearly all the dailies etc. are DPS dependent - there are only one or two in EE where you have to go out and take 250K damage, everything else requires DPS. My GF has all its boons, I don't need any DPS to grind out boons, but others do. I don't know how you balance that and also balance PvP.
maybe they should rewrite the role of the GF as a Defender/leader/controler/striker, since he can do all of that
Defenders take a lot of damage, mark targets and protect the rest of the party. If enemies they target try to attack another member of the party the defender will attack to stun, damage or taunt enemies to protect their companionseasy to understand
-->that´s my GF at first degree atm, being protector
Leaders are healers, buffers and debuffers. Their powers support the party's success either by healing damage taken, preventing damage from being taken or increasing the damage enemies take.
-->GF provides very good buffs and debuffs atm, ITF, KV, ToI, tactitian capstone
Controllers influence fights by controlling either the field of battle or targets directly. Their role is to ensure threats are minimized or handled efficiently.
-->aggreed also, that´s what a GF can do
Strikers specialize in mobility and damage output. These combatants focus on disposing threats as quickly as possible by doing as much damage as they can, as quickly as they can, without enemies retaliating.
--> yes, my GF can do that pretty good as conquerer, the way to 70 was the easiest next to the GWF, immense burst and following the data from a known source ingame, he is striker N° 1
suggestions: Tone down ITF first, that´s the only obvious suggestion from my side, because I do not want to get focussed by the mob...