Power creep friend or foe?

kievitz · March 2016

Has cryptic gone overboard with it or is it good to be able to have "super toons" in the game?

urlord283 · March 2016

Friend, yes, we need to be able to have "super toons"

It is why we progress

zukn75 · March 2016

Perhaps more difficult content is needed to catch up with it

The way Cryptic has introduced power creep has negatively influenced my playing experience. By not providing enough content for the varying degrees of "Power per toon" and funneling everyone into the latest content with no competency gate only an easily jumped gear gate means the newest content can't challenge old players with strategies and tactics, it must challenge new players with poor gear and limited experience and skills. This is a design philosophy inherent in the FTP churn model that has been adopted and not a design a long term based game would choose to use. This means much as I love FR RP and D&D this isn't going to be the game that holds my longterm attention, (No that's not an "I quit" statement) I'll be be back now and again to see what's going on, but this isn't the D'nD I play regularly, the DM ain't running a campaign I enjoy, I'm looking for another table.

ghoulz66 · March 2016

Too much imbalance now. People doing 100x more DPS than less geared people is a little over the top. Management really need to let one module pass by for 3 months of balancing.

bitt3rnightmar3 · March 2016

Perhaps more difficult content is needed to catch up with it

If people are already burning CN final boss in 30 seconds flat we really need something else in this game for those people, I agree.

Like maybe tiered dungeons? Remember when we did regular LOL when they introduced it? Gave you a chance to get used to the new dungeon. Nothing like that for CN I guess. Make tier 3 CN an apocalyptic 1hko fest the likes of which no one has ever seen and reward them with +1 rings at the end. LOL and have a reasonable 2.5k IL casual person version for the people who actually earn most of their things via in game RNG.

My fun is waning with the rampant itemization and tokenization. I don't want to collect any more BS I just want to play the game. I'm hesitant to put too much stock into any item.

I'm not sure what to do for fun in this game anymore right now. It's not because I'm overpowered. It's because there is an ever increasing gap of gear/items. Too many options and it's making things more complicated and less fun. Why does anyone need a party anymore if everyone can solo dungeons now with their 300,000 Stats and their super legendary mounts? I play support characters as mains because I find fun in helping people. This phallus waving is becoming obnoxious and basic.

deathbeez · March 2016

I don't care

I think it comes back to class balance; that's not really had a good look in 3 mods now and it's getting out of hand.

If you look at some of these class synergies, no way where they intended for stat scores this high.
You have some powers/feats/skills/trees that are utterly useless and some that are godly powerful, especially when they buff a stat based on another stat, but where made in the context of mod 1-3 equipment. Scaling wasn't a priority and the day came.

I don't think a broad-stroke stat nerf is the answer. Yes, there is a power creep.
But that creep is effecting classes differently so even as difficulty increases, it will effect classes disproportionately.

hustin1 · March 2016

I think the devs are trying, though I'm also concerned about power creep, and we've been talking about it in guild chat. Lately the devs seem to have been putting a lot of thought into enemy fight mechanics, and that's a good thing. A thinking enemy (or as close as one can come to it with AI) will always be more challenging (and more fun). This is something that Foundry authors have really had to deal with, since the Foundry editor is so crippled: they've had to rely much more on strategy and mechanics to make fights interesting.

Unknown · March 2016

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thefabricant · March 2016

Perhaps more difficult content is needed to catch up with it

I would rather power creep was fixed by introducing new, challenging and interesting content, then by having it addressed by altering existing content.

wildfirede · March 2016

Friend, yes, we need to be able to have "super toons"

friend, now i can go mount instead of r12 and if i want to go hardcore both.

Unknown · March 2016

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ironzerg79 · March 2016

I don't care

I don't care because I don't care that much about it anymore. Cryptic, with already limited resources, is designing content for the average player, not the 0.01% of people who are "killing the CN boss in 30 seconds". There's no ROI in making some sort of super-hard dungeon, especially when the reality is you'll still have those players complaining that the rewards don't justify the challenge.

If there was a large enough playerbase that wanted to be challenge simply for the sake of being challenged, it would be something worth considering. But there's not. With the challenge comes the expectation of over-powered rewards for completing that challenge, which then exasperates the problem.

But the positive side of things is this only benefits the average player, and those who don't want to sink thousands of hours (or dollars) into this game to do the PvE content. For those other players who are already bored with CN, the problem is easily rectified by either gearing down, or trying to beat Orcus without using cheeseball tactics.

Both of which would serve to add challenge back to the game.

thefabricant · March 2016

Perhaps more difficult content is needed to catch up with it

magenubbie said:

thefabricant said:
I would rather power creep was fixed by introducing new, challenging and interesting content, then by having it addressed by altering existing content.
If there was even the slightest chance of that happening I would have voted for it. But about 2.5k IL seems to be the F2P sweet spot. Creating harder content means having to raise that average F2P IL. And then people will have to spend less on getting BiS for PvP or for fun. So I don't see it happening.

@magenubbie by introducing rank 8 enchants into the drop pool of CN, they already have raised the average ilvl I predict. I suspect the price of R8's will drop to below 10k AD eventually and all ranks above that will be based on that ground level. The exception being brutals, savages etc.

arabatur · March 2016

I don't care

I don't need to be super to invoke.

loboguild · March 2016

ironzerg79 said:
I don't care because I don't care that much about it anymore. Cryptic, with already limited resources, is designing content for the average player, not the 0.01% of people who are "killing the CN boss in 30 seconds". There's no ROI in making some sort of super-hard dungeon, especially when the reality is you'll still have those players complaining that the rewards don't justify the challenge.

If there was a large enough playerbase that wanted to be challenge simply for the sake of being challenged, it would be something worth considering. But there's not. With the challenge comes the expectation of over-powered rewards for completing that challenge, which then exasperates the problem.

But the positive side of things is this only benefits the average player, and those who don't want to sink thousands of hours (or dollars) into this game to do the PvE content. For those other players who are already bored with CN, the problem is easily rectified by either gearing down, or trying to beat Orcus without using cheeseball tactics.

Both of which would serve to add challenge back to the game.

I would agree if there weren't mechanics that work beyond overall power. Bosses that do little besides hitting hard and having lots of HP have to be balanced around item level. Bosses that need players to fill roles and use tactics do not. So it's as much a design issue as not having the playerbase for super hard dungeons.

Putting skill into the equation breaks the more challenge = more avg item level needed meta.

It's also quite an issue that PVP is as broken as it is, because those players historically feel the need to max out the most. Now if there's no challenge in PVE and no reason to PVP, who is going to bring in revenue? The most blatant paywalls hit on your way to 3k when the game becomes so grindy that you pay to accelerate.

niadan · March 2016

Just simply let there be a TOTAL IL threshold for the party to be able to run content with smaller high IL groups. Give them special recognition through titles, or some such. This would also let guilds run (carry) newbies through the content.

urlord283 · March 2016

Friend, yes, we need to be able to have "super toons"

I don't think there should be any total IL limit

We all want to increase in power and it is like inflation... it all evens out

The 4K I fight in PVP today was the 3.5K when I was 2.9K

I work on my character and they work on theirs... but they seem to be better at it

If you penalize them, people will feel trapped, frustrated and quit

durynte · March 2016

I agree with @ironzerg79.

The 3/5 participants PuG dungeons where all the damage done was on near equal level, say something like 2 Mio, have been the most interesting and challenging. But then there are those where one is waaay overpowered and would score 50 Mio and the others 1 Mio (besides overall ugly dungeon experience for the lower level participants caused by this). I'd say about 25% difference in stats from lowest to highest is ok, but 5000% is not.

Anyways, I doubt it will get improved, even if tried. In part because f2p incentives tend to big differences. And I dare say, I pity the one given the task to rebalance classes and stats (and/or all mobs). 8 classes with 3 paragons each, with powers and feats each, 12 slots for various stones and levels, 4 artifact gear with slots and 4 artifacts out of some 30 to choose from, some with set bonus, gear and weapon enchants, 6 boon campaigns, 5 companions out of some 30 with 3+6 slots for various stones, and now added 5 mounts each 2-3 slots. Then there are some rings with various chance of something. I don't care if the numbers above are accurate, and some, e.g. powers and feats, are equal to others. Even if cut down to half, it is, pardon me saying, still a big mess, and I am somewhat puzzled it turns out working most of the time.

To those "look, I clear hardest in 30 seconds solo!!!" looking for a challenge: Repeat just with main weapon, no gear, no stones, no enchants, no artifact, no companion, no horses. Then slightly keep adding back, until you find the sweet spot, where you feel there is an entertaining challenge for you. Try it solo, duo, trio, quartett, quintett in various compositions.

grabmoore · March 2016

Foe, no, able to have "super toons" is bad

magenubbie said:

thefabricant said:
I would rather power creep was fixed by introducing new, challenging and interesting content, then by having it addressed by altering existing content.
If there was even the slightest chance of that happening I would have voted for it. But about 2.5k IL seems to be the F2P sweet spot. Creating harder content means having to raise that average F2P IL. And then people will have to spend less on getting BiS for PvP or for fun. So I don't see it happening.

This! Powercreep is one of the reasons for the boredom this game has come to.
Harder content would scare new players.

ghoulz66 · March 2016

It's not just gear and ilvl that's the problem. It's broken classes and balance that's really hurting the endgame.

linoge63 · March 2016

Friend, yes, we need to be able to have "super toons"

No such thing as too much power...ever ever annnd ever

ironzerg79 · March 2016

I don't care

@loboguild I agree wholeheartedly with you. I'd love to see encounter designs that rewarded teamwork and strategy, as opposed to encounters that reward gearscore. I remember some very cool encounters in WoW that were still challenging to parties that were 10 or 20 levels above the content, truly faceroll territory.

To that end, I think that last couple mods have shown a definite improvement in how battles are scripted, and there's effort being made to make encounters more strategic.

From a mechanics perspective, I think the Tiamat and Demogorgon are solid fights. But you can't ignored the mechanics, although with the amount of power creep, the tolerance you need to overcome to make the mechanics mostly trivial is fairly low. The updated boss fights in eCC, eGWD and eToS were much better than the previous iterations. And the fights in CN are definitely better than they were in the original version, but there's enough cheese floating around that groups are still essentially ignoring them.

If the developers would take bold action on a few major cheese factors, the game would be a lot healthier for it:

The top three, beyond class balances are:

1) The Lostmauth set bonues
2) Bonding Runestones
3) Ridiculous AP game

Right now, the meta is pretty easy, especially for DPS. Equipped Lostmauth, a summoned companion with 3xR12 Bondings, and any number of ridiculous boosts to AP gain and you're set. Everything outside of that is fairly trivial, be it the rest of your gear or even your build and stats.

reds351 · March 2016

Foe, no, able to have "super toons" is bad

In mod 5 we ended up doing dungeon runs with no armor the game got so easy.

We need to balance the game and make it so regardless at any item level you at least need stay our of the big obvious red circles. Being able to stand and attack a boss without having to dodge anything due to a pally bubble is just stupid.

At the moment you don't even need the (pally) tank to agro the boss just put up a perma bubble and who cares who is getting hit.

Yesterday we had people with 300k power (now fixed) but we have top level GWF's having a set bonus tick for 200k every crit, Even a GWF that soloed all the T2's.

Power creep is bad as it makes content pointless, CN was already pointless to most of the player base at the release of this mod.

mamalion1234 · March 2016

Foe, no, able to have "super toons" is bad

+ for all opinions above but.........................WE bought them and we keep buying the power creep. Checked some posts and i saw comments like: zentharim is the best my power goes 60k DONT ADJust bondings or fix them and now i see this post: power creep. come on.

OR other comment like: my cw will hit like a track if i get dread enchantment. get it ( gated behind zen market and rng !) but then dont come here to say you dont have content you will do what they want : you will give them money.

amafia313 · March 2016

Are we seriously still complaining about the Lostmauth set?

mamalion1234 · March 2016

Foe, no, able to have "super toons" is bad

i will add to your comment : are we seriously still complaining about the bubble ?:)

Unknown · March 2016

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mamalion1234 · March 2016

Foe, no, able to have "super toons" is bad

defiantone99 said:

ironzerg79 said:
@loboguild I agree wholeheartedly with you. I'd love to see encounter designs that rewarded teamwork and strategy, as opposed to encounters that reward gearscore. I remember some very cool encounters in WoW that were still challenging to parties that were 10 or 20 levels above the content, truly faceroll territory.

To that end, I think that last couple mods have shown a definite improvement in how battles are scripted, and there's effort being made to make encounters more strategic.

From a mechanics perspective, I think the Tiamat and Demogorgon are solid fights. But you can't ignored the mechanics, although with the amount of power creep, the tolerance you need to overcome to make the mechanics mostly trivial is fairly low. The updated boss fights in eCC, eGWD and eToS were much better than the previous iterations. And the fights in CN are definitely better than they were in the original version, but there's enough cheese floating around that groups are still essentially ignoring them.

If the developers would take bold action on a few major cheese factors, the game would be a lot healthier for it:

The top three, beyond class balances are:

1) The Lostmauth set bonues
2) Bonding Runestones
3) Ridiculous AP game

Right now, the meta is pretty easy, especially for DPS. Equipped Lostmauth, a summoned companion with 3xR12 Bondings, and any number of ridiculous boosts to AP gain and you're set. Everything outside of that is fairly trivial, be it the rest of your gear or even your build and stats.
I am pretty sure that if they nerf all 3 of those, the exodus of Mod 6 will look tiny in comparison to what will happen.

i spended time to get them and money but i dont care if the game will improve.
WE NEED ITEM BALANCE thanks.

wylonus · March 2016

ok, i didnt vote this time, reason why devs pull out wards and rubies from t-bar merchant is to slow down many other players so they cant even join "3k Club" for tiamat runs, they wont invite me or give message for zerg time-into zone set timer, saying oh sorry, not yet 3k?
man, how arrogance they are.

plavia · March 2016

Perhaps more difficult content is needed to catch up with it

they need to reduce the AP gain by more then half (or increase the amount needed for daily, either way)
OP bubble can be spamed constatnly
I am DC and i can spam annointed army daily constanly now...
when all party is immune its way too easy, all looks like ZERG now.

I miss the old go slowl, dont argo adds, CW push over cliff etc.

Unknown · March 2016

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Power creep friend or foe?

Power creep friend or foe? 92 votes

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