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PvP Balance Please. Palladins, overhealings, DCs, etc etc are not fun.
azuosed89
Member Posts: 565 Arc User
Hi all. I just wanted to give you a few feedback and suggestion for balancing out the game. Devs, was it that you intended when you created a Palladin:? my way to see it. Pally is a cancer for this game.
http://xboxclips.com/Gannicus1389/82120b42-bd96-40cf-a5c9-2582407f281f
Look for example this pally above. I completely outgear him, yet I can't even scratch him. I hit zeroes after zeroes, and when i do some damage it barely moves his HP bar. He can do more damage than I can to him, and even if there were 3, 4 ppl trying to kill him, he would just killl everyone. He couldn't kill me because of mt healings.
Now, I am not a weak DPS GWF. I actually in PvP have more DPS burst than even the full crit lostmauth IVs out there.
I have 150% Resistance Ignore. My weapon master strike grants me another 10% ignore for encounter/at wills.
I had full destroyer stacks (36%+ bonus damage). on top of 10 destroyer's purpose (50% damage boost). Add that to MARK from daring shout (another 16% PURE resistance ignore + 15% boost damage from powefull challenge) and then add mark giving me combat advantage (15% bonus damage plus whatever my combat advantage bonus is (currently 13%).
My Crescendo BASE damage goes up to 125k fully stacked, yet it hits zeroes too.
AM I wrong to think there is something really broken ab out pallys?
a pally in the group does these 2 things in a pvp match: Don't let anyone die, and never die. and still kill stuff using broken mechanics...
IMO, the most balanced classes right now in the game are CWs and GWFs.
Trickster Rogues: Why 75% deflection severity? why smoke bomb occupies such a huge area and last so long? its cc is more effective and annoying than a CW's CC. Why they have a daily power (shocking execution) that can bypass all defense/dr/tenacity? This is VERY broken when you can simply run high power/high recovery build, don't even need to worry about armor penetration stats, and run artifacts and mounts that give back ACTION POINT. Don't you see that? Now give this classes 3~4 dodge rolls that are long enough to dodge an attack that comes right before or after the dodge roll ended. Now also give this same classes high mobility stealth and higher inner Crow control resistance... the perfect warrior. Many mods people complaining about these mechanics, yet the devs did nothing.
Hunter Rangers: OK, nerf their root damage was a good approach. But I think any "perma" anything is beyond broken. No one can even move with a high crit trapper build hunter ranger rooting you all the time. Fix it. Give them damage back but give their opponents a chance to fight back.
Clerics: Are they Healers or Tanks? Because they feel like both. A healer should be a healer not immortal tanks that cast shields that make you hit them zeroes and them have some weird mechanic buff that adds thousands and thousands of healings for everyone in their part even from large distances. FIX IT. Multiple DCs and Pally together make PvP boring and no fun.
Control Wizard: So far they are very balanced. I think chaotic growth is something they shouldn't have though. Other than that, they seem pretty balanced.
Great Weapon Fighter: Some people argue that they are too strong. But often, these people forget that a good GWF is HIGH dependent on a very high ITEM LEVEL to be efficient. it is a class carried by enchantments (negation/feytouch) to survive. Other than that, it is a class that is challenging to play because to deal enough damage to kill stuff nowadays you need to build up stacks of damage often. Only viable path on pvp is destroyer because everything else dies just as good and can't even hurt the opponent. Destroyer is nice, but 25% chance to get a BUFF that last 3 seconds is a bit meh if you ask me. Now put this guy against a good control wizard enjoying of repels and control, or a perma stun Hunter, or a Trickster rogue, and these buffs are hard to keep up. Iron vanguard is theonly viable path most of the time to fight ranged targets thanks to the gap close of threatening rush and frontline surge. yet, they are not enough in the end game IMO. Now, I am not asking to buff GWF. I would even accept a slight damage nerf if it was to make its damage more consistent. GWF CC is a JOKE. Devs BUFFED EVERYONE'S CC, but GWF CC IS NERFED SINCE MOD 3... Takedown doesn't prone and with the amount of tenacity it lasts like 0.2 second. Doesn't do enough damage and doesn't even last long enough to combo opponent. Frontline surge is a little better, but 17 seconds cooldown, low damage, and doesn't last that long. Crescendo is beautiful for swordmaster. However, often it bugs where it stops hitting and you just spend your AP for nothing. No other gap closes and the way GWF is easy cced makes it hard to even play Sword master on pvp often.
Guardian Fighter: Too much burst damage with little or no work. On one hand, you have a GWF, where you have to attack stuff for a long period of time to build dmg stacks that are gone within seconds of being kite, you have a guardian fighter. a warrior that has a too big base damage and has almost a perma block instance. I thin you either drop some of GF damage, or mess with their block.. something has to be done. Xbox one people haven't seen much of it yet, but soon en ough they will.
Warlock: Clearly, they suffer from same situation of GWF. Lack of enough CC, lack of dodge, and just a sprint t hat doens't last long enough. Howver, their burst is very little (except when they glitch the lostmauth set). They need a damage buff. Some warlocks found aw ay to be effective, but they can't really kill much stuff going full defensive.
5-MAN PREMADES:
No fun playing premades anymore. Competitive premades are now about who is the most troll team. The ones that bring double clerics and a pally, or double palladins and a cleric. Not only that, let's bring HRs, or double TRs (that can cc an entire n ode for a long period of time, can shocking execution you for up to 150k using first strike). There almost no room for GWFs, CWs, and WARLOCKS in the game anymore. It is all about who bring 3 supports and two dunks/cc classes like GFS/TRS/HRS.
Would you care to change?
Other game mechanics:
Do you guys seriously think about or test stuff before you just throw them in the game? I mean, you have a brilliant ideia (hey, I will make a ring that gives you 30% damage resistance and a weapon that gives you 25% of your HP back in 20 seconds). Do you even test how this will affect the game overeall?
like, boons of thousands of numbers, etc? please, stop throwing stuff in the game without measure their consequences. You promised us class balance, but you keep releasing stuff that makes the game more broken and that will just make it harder to balance after. STOP DOING IT. TEST YOUR STUFF FIRST. HEAR THE FEEDBACK. you go ON PC AND ASK PREVIEW PEOPLE'S FEEDBACK, BUT YOU IGNORE ALL THE FEEDBACK. How many people on PC told that these DR/STEALTH rings, etc are just making the pvp/pve just more stupid, yet you throw them in the game ANYWAY.
The pvp community may not be as large like the pve, but WE DO EXIST. have a little respect for us please.
http://xboxclips.com/Gannicus1389/82120b42-bd96-40cf-a5c9-2582407f281f
Look for example this pally above. I completely outgear him, yet I can't even scratch him. I hit zeroes after zeroes, and when i do some damage it barely moves his HP bar. He can do more damage than I can to him, and even if there were 3, 4 ppl trying to kill him, he would just killl everyone. He couldn't kill me because of mt healings.
Now, I am not a weak DPS GWF. I actually in PvP have more DPS burst than even the full crit lostmauth IVs out there.
I have 150% Resistance Ignore. My weapon master strike grants me another 10% ignore for encounter/at wills.
I had full destroyer stacks (36%+ bonus damage). on top of 10 destroyer's purpose (50% damage boost). Add that to MARK from daring shout (another 16% PURE resistance ignore + 15% boost damage from powefull challenge) and then add mark giving me combat advantage (15% bonus damage plus whatever my combat advantage bonus is (currently 13%).
My Crescendo BASE damage goes up to 125k fully stacked, yet it hits zeroes too.
AM I wrong to think there is something really broken ab out pallys?
a pally in the group does these 2 things in a pvp match: Don't let anyone die, and never die. and still kill stuff using broken mechanics...
IMO, the most balanced classes right now in the game are CWs and GWFs.
Trickster Rogues: Why 75% deflection severity? why smoke bomb occupies such a huge area and last so long? its cc is more effective and annoying than a CW's CC. Why they have a daily power (shocking execution) that can bypass all defense/dr/tenacity? This is VERY broken when you can simply run high power/high recovery build, don't even need to worry about armor penetration stats, and run artifacts and mounts that give back ACTION POINT. Don't you see that? Now give this classes 3~4 dodge rolls that are long enough to dodge an attack that comes right before or after the dodge roll ended. Now also give this same classes high mobility stealth and higher inner Crow control resistance... the perfect warrior. Many mods people complaining about these mechanics, yet the devs did nothing.
Hunter Rangers: OK, nerf their root damage was a good approach. But I think any "perma" anything is beyond broken. No one can even move with a high crit trapper build hunter ranger rooting you all the time. Fix it. Give them damage back but give their opponents a chance to fight back.
Clerics: Are they Healers or Tanks? Because they feel like both. A healer should be a healer not immortal tanks that cast shields that make you hit them zeroes and them have some weird mechanic buff that adds thousands and thousands of healings for everyone in their part even from large distances. FIX IT. Multiple DCs and Pally together make PvP boring and no fun.
Control Wizard: So far they are very balanced. I think chaotic growth is something they shouldn't have though. Other than that, they seem pretty balanced.
Great Weapon Fighter: Some people argue that they are too strong. But often, these people forget that a good GWF is HIGH dependent on a very high ITEM LEVEL to be efficient. it is a class carried by enchantments (negation/feytouch) to survive. Other than that, it is a class that is challenging to play because to deal enough damage to kill stuff nowadays you need to build up stacks of damage often. Only viable path on pvp is destroyer because everything else dies just as good and can't even hurt the opponent. Destroyer is nice, but 25% chance to get a BUFF that last 3 seconds is a bit meh if you ask me. Now put this guy against a good control wizard enjoying of repels and control, or a perma stun Hunter, or a Trickster rogue, and these buffs are hard to keep up. Iron vanguard is theonly viable path most of the time to fight ranged targets thanks to the gap close of threatening rush and frontline surge. yet, they are not enough in the end game IMO. Now, I am not asking to buff GWF. I would even accept a slight damage nerf if it was to make its damage more consistent. GWF CC is a JOKE. Devs BUFFED EVERYONE'S CC, but GWF CC IS NERFED SINCE MOD 3... Takedown doesn't prone and with the amount of tenacity it lasts like 0.2 second. Doesn't do enough damage and doesn't even last long enough to combo opponent. Frontline surge is a little better, but 17 seconds cooldown, low damage, and doesn't last that long. Crescendo is beautiful for swordmaster. However, often it bugs where it stops hitting and you just spend your AP for nothing. No other gap closes and the way GWF is easy cced makes it hard to even play Sword master on pvp often.
Guardian Fighter: Too much burst damage with little or no work. On one hand, you have a GWF, where you have to attack stuff for a long period of time to build dmg stacks that are gone within seconds of being kite, you have a guardian fighter. a warrior that has a too big base damage and has almost a perma block instance. I thin you either drop some of GF damage, or mess with their block.. something has to be done. Xbox one people haven't seen much of it yet, but soon en ough they will.
Warlock: Clearly, they suffer from same situation of GWF. Lack of enough CC, lack of dodge, and just a sprint t hat doens't last long enough. Howver, their burst is very little (except when they glitch the lostmauth set). They need a damage buff. Some warlocks found aw ay to be effective, but they can't really kill much stuff going full defensive.
5-MAN PREMADES:
No fun playing premades anymore. Competitive premades are now about who is the most troll team. The ones that bring double clerics and a pally, or double palladins and a cleric. Not only that, let's bring HRs, or double TRs (that can cc an entire n ode for a long period of time, can shocking execution you for up to 150k using first strike). There almost no room for GWFs, CWs, and WARLOCKS in the game anymore. It is all about who bring 3 supports and two dunks/cc classes like GFS/TRS/HRS.
Would you care to change?
Other game mechanics:
Do you guys seriously think about or test stuff before you just throw them in the game? I mean, you have a brilliant ideia (hey, I will make a ring that gives you 30% damage resistance and a weapon that gives you 25% of your HP back in 20 seconds). Do you even test how this will affect the game overeall?
like, boons of thousands of numbers, etc? please, stop throwing stuff in the game without measure their consequences. You promised us class balance, but you keep releasing stuff that makes the game more broken and that will just make it harder to balance after. STOP DOING IT. TEST YOUR STUFF FIRST. HEAR THE FEEDBACK. you go ON PC AND ASK PREVIEW PEOPLE'S FEEDBACK, BUT YOU IGNORE ALL THE FEEDBACK. How many people on PC told that these DR/STEALTH rings, etc are just making the pvp/pve just more stupid, yet you throw them in the game ANYWAY.
The pvp community may not be as large like the pve, but WE DO EXIST. have a little respect for us please.
Gannicus GWF PvP
DENIAL
DENIAL
0
Comments
Character:
7thS1n---Trickster Rouge LV 70(perma-Stun build)
7ThH3AL3R-- Devoted Cleric LV 70 (Divine Oracle Haste/DPS build)
7ThM4G3-- Control Wizard
7ThW4rL0CK-- Scrooge Warlock
7THW4R--Great Weapon Fighter
DENIAL
1. Have the action drain mark = no bubble.
2. Spam heal potions since Oath Paladins dont' do imprssive damage.
3. Just spam smoke bombs and other stuff that paralyzes them so they either cna't use bubble since they have to put their cicle up or use the other ability.
4. Be a snea who can pretty much kill them in one or two back stab. This happened to me today. L0L
Most PvP matches I do fine but once and ahwile I meet an opponent who I have literally no shot against and against all but the weakest of players I can't ge much kills.
To avoid 0 dmg hits on tanks and Paladins when making use of your crescendo, sprint right behind them and then immediately charge into their back, they can't cover their backs (except for bubble daylie skill).
Just FYI, The passive healing shield is the last skill of the virtuous paragon, when any ally within 50 feet of that cleric gets struck they get healed for 300% of clerics weapon dmg over time
As for the new raising defense rings, a +4 ring increases your dmg resistance by 3%, a +5 ring increases your dmg resistance by 4%.
Beside that, the ring of natural order provides a chance of x% to remove all buffs from all nearby foes when getting struck, so pretty awesome to counter the GWF class (definetely a must have for all supporting classes for pve and pvp).
DENIAL
the new team that is in charge of developing this game after mod 5 did not see anything wrong at all as it is their intention to make this game as a PVE. the old team that is doing this game b4 mod 6 is much better imho those pally that is killable have an IL around 2K and below 2500, try 1 shotting any pally with 3500 IL or 4K IL with max out on their artifact, gear and weapon, then u tell me if u r able to kill them at all.
Character:
7thS1n---Trickster Rouge LV 70(perma-Stun build)
7ThH3AL3R-- Devoted Cleric LV 70 (Divine Oracle Haste/DPS build)
7ThM4G3-- Control Wizard
7ThW4rL0CK-- Scrooge Warlock
7THW4R--Great Weapon Fighter
DENIAL
More PvP modes (deathmatch, cap the flag) or simply new domination maps. 1x1 , 2x2, 3x3 maps. AND CLASS BALANCE. this was never attended. Even the supposed PvP campaings (stronghold and Ice Wind Dale) has more pve content than pvp.
They throw so many broken things at the game without concerning with the consequences on PvP that almost feels like those Devs have a tendency to push the game toward a fully pve world. But they refuse to remove pvp completely so we are trapped in this game:(. I imagine them laughing at us when we ask pvp content, as seems they hear no feedback from us.
I see that next MOD they will bring some insignias that grants healing over time as long as you perform some actions (life steal, deflect, crit) that sort of thing.
With these healings on. I think the game will break to a even worse point, and pvp will be basically unplayable on end game. I think this will either: make a lot of people get bored and quit, or force their hand to bring a mechanics balance.
I just hope that if they mess with the healings again or life steal, that they at least have the decency of fix pallys/Shocking execution, smoke bomb, perma stuns from HRs, and other things. GWF is outdated since mod 3 in terms of CC.
Too be honest, I am glad that the ring of natural order was not put in the game for now. But if they release that stuff I will probably take a long break from the game. Play GWF is still a challenge as the class is mostly carried by fey-negation combo than anything else. It is hard to keep our damage buffs our even get them against good players. If they release a ring that will make us useless I will probably take a long break and stop feeding them money with my zen. I think I deserve a little respect.
DENIAL
You shouldn't be able to one shot anyone that has a 3500 or 4k IL. Why would that be acceptable?
I am a 2600k pally. I do pretty well in pvp but I['m far from unkillable by other players espicially when I'm gang HAMSTER by stunners. L0L
Oath paladins should be hard to kill because that is what they are designed for. of course, it is hard for them to kill people in return. Outside of our charge attacks most opponents are faster and able to flee even if I'm capable of killing them.
Now, admittedly, I'm not build with 100% focus on pvp (I take part mostly for the AD) so I'm sure a pvp focus pally would be evn more dangerous. But, eh, all classes have their strengths and weaknesses. There are classes that I've seen get 20+ kills in pvp my best was maybe 10. Usually I get a few. L0L
The biggest advantage a pally has in pvp is he doesn't neccessarily have to kill anyone to be useful. Just have the group win a flag and he can hold it indefinitely vs another player until a 2nd comes. <>
Heal potions and the wards are the biggest issues in pvp. not unbalanced classes Still, some powers of certain classes (including OP) are over/under powered and should be adjusted to be more 'fair'.
now tell me how this helps the enemy team win the match with 4 free people working on the other nodes.
your build must be wrong, because I think above 3k, any pally is pretty much immortal to anything you throw at it.
you get insane amounts of temporary hit points off an already high hp, not to mention the increase damage resistance. don't forget the stuns too, you also need stuns so you can't even take a combo.
I could accept a pallading to be immortal as long as it didn't make his team mates immortal as well. this is what makes it broken on a team game.
right now, the best premades consists of a palladin and a cleric. these together are more than enough to keep the entire team from ever dying if they are playing properly. now two teams fighting that same comp, it is stupid. the best they can come up with to try to take kills is bring these and 2 rogues, or a gf and a rogue and try to dunk someone but still won't kill the pally.
and again, tr and gf are other issue explained in this topic.
back to pally, some team prefer to run 2 pally and a dc. and then this is when nothing ever dies. and game gets really boring.
i think their temporary hit points gain + bubble is too overpowered, that shield thing they use that you hit zeroes too.
Like I said, I could take a palladin being imortal on one v one. but requiring 5 people to kill it ( which is not the case in many of smart palladins) while they keep the enemy team immune to damage is beyond ridiculous.
I think I should not even discuss with someone that is defending a pallading. you sound like those rogues from mod 5 saying the class was balanced.
DENIAL
Paladins can die. Not easy to kill but they *can* die. In fact, as a pally, I'd exchange some of my 'unkillability' with the ability to do at least some damage. L0L
"
right now, the best premades consists of a palladin and a cleric. these together are more than enough to keep the entire team from ever dying if they are playing properly."
Agreed. a pally + cleric combo is pretty much unstoppable.
You talk about 3k+ like those are common. I don't see too many 3k+ characters let alone pallies. I did play Val with a 4100 GWF and he was just as tough as me but the ability to slay things with ease. L0L But, he should be powerful. He is near maxed out.
Again, I'm 2600 IL pally not 100% focused on pvp. Pallies are tough to kill as they should be as that is what they are build for. Even one on one a good stunner could annoy a pally to no end. L0L heck, a control wizard could do the same byu just pushing the pally or focusing him to do circle so he is unaffected but then the pally cna't do anything.
The ckommon IL is under 25.k. Anything about that espciially 3k+ should be tough and great at what they do.
*shrug* All things can be adjusted. You just solund like a crybaby who can't handle something challengin. The players who have killed paladins in pvp seem to to handle it just fine.
Also, as a DnD fan, 'balance' is something really misunderstood in modern gaming.
You forget that pvp in this game is also domination. when you have an imortal tank that makes everyone imortal around him, you can't even focus on that guy you will lose the other nodes. And even if you do focus, you are forgeting the other team has 5 guys too. which if is a healer, specially a haste one, it is more than enough to make this palladin gets perma bubble, and not die, won't even need the support of the other 3 dudes that are free rotating around the map.
3k now is pretty common in the game. we had several double refinements. I am close to 4k and I never purchased AD from third party and I refined most of what I have myself.
You MAY not be built for pvp. but the pvp community in this game do exist. You can't just say " I am a guy not focused on PvP , pally should be die hard bla bla". if you don't care about pvp, how does it entitles you to defend your class in a pvp feedback? I mean, take a close look at PC forum and here, you will see that pally is generally considered a cancer for this game in pvp. Too be honest, even PvE is boring with them. there is no challenge or need to even avoid red zones. so people get lazy that is all.
I personally like a challenge. I barely do pve, but I do have fun facing high pve. the funny thing is this game is so considered highere pve content, yet the pve here has no challenge at all because hey, your class broke that too.
I don't think fighting a class that cannot die by design and make everyone around it immortal sounds like a challenge. I mean, have you been in a match where two sides have like 2 palladins. it is a bunch of people competing to see who races the fastest to the other node and to see who pushes the other first out of two at beginning of the game to win it. super challenging huh?
you don't know what you talking, if you think giving a feedback that probably 99% of the game agrees with is crying baby, then you really sound like a TR from mod 5 saying the class was alright.
About your complaint about CWs. yeah they are annoying with repel. but they are not imortall. any other class can fight them back. they can kill or get killed. they are not a class made for skilless players who think they are good in a 4 key game playing a class that is in god mode 90% of the time.
DENIAL
Agree. Been there done that. Not fun absolutely.
Well Endowed (Xbox)
DENIAL
We can't really fight back and damage any decently geared pvper.
Staying alive is what clerics have against any other classes and all we can do is hope our team mates are strong enough to kill the other team.
It's also the REASON why I've posted in the past the best way to FIX PVP is to ignore party or queue groups when assigning teams. The only thing a party or queue group for PVP should try to honor is putting players in the same match but not on the same team.
If PVP is going to be fixed the only way to do it is team balancing by overall gear score. Teams still won't be even but they will be a lot closer. Total Gear Score of each team should be announce at the begining and if one team exceeds a set of criteria additional scoring opportunities should be made available to lower gear score teams--opportunities the higher gear score team does not get so it remains challenging for both sides.
Example 1:
If the lower gear score team has 20% less gear score perhaps they get optional spawning flags that can appear randomly throughout the map to be returned to a point they defend. If a team has >40% less gear score they get double points for defending a area they hold.
Example 2:
If one team scores 33% of match points but has a lead of >40% of points scored perhaps loosing team gain's 20% damage resistence & tenacity bonus in addition to those that are applied in example 1. If at 50% of match points scored the winning team has acquired >50% of points scored damage resistence & tenacity is increased to 25%.
Example 3:
The 3rd largest problem in a PvP 5v5 match is their are only 3 points to capture and this should be increased to 5 (3 major capture points & 2 minor capture points) whereas PvP 10v10 should be effectively equally increased as well.
If they implemented queue balancing for teams to bring teams on both sides closer in gear score it will still give one team an advantage that could still be upwards of 20-40% advantage depending on the class and gear score of each player in the game but it would also allow lessor gear score teams know the challenge they faced upfront and give optional scoring points to mitigate the advantage the other team has. This would NOT threaten players rankings in PvP scoring as team wins would not count toward ranking only individual performance in a match 1-10 in a 5v5 or 1-20 in 10v10 and where they placed in terms of total points scored.
I honestly belief if they did this they'd see a lot more play PvP -- because frankly right now their is no SKILL involved in the game. It's just frankly High Gear Score Players beating senseless lower gear score players who stand no HOPE or chance of even earning glory or very little despite trying to overcome some incredible ODDS and giving it their best effort.
make dcs more tanky? LOL.
DENIAL
I was responding to the initial statement, that they needed to be nerffed.. they shouldn't be nerffed or buffed.
DCs are fine the way they are.
Gift of Faith is broken. It heals back people from almost from the dead to just proc again very soon after. Give shields, etc, a DC is super tanky and can heal for ages. a Healer shouldn't be a tank. Perhaps you are talking about lower geared DCs versus other geared characters or a shocking TR. If that is so yeah, it is ok. but in the end game it is not. I am an end game GWF, and I play with close to immortal DCs every day. My build is designed to deliver more DPS in PvP than PvE GWFs, and I can't kill a less geared DC. they are just less imortal than a Pally, but they are part of the problem too. I think Gift of faith and haste shouldn't exist in PvP. I might be wrong, but I think without these two skills, they are pretty much balanced, perhaps still tanky, but we will see.
DENIAL