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D&D - Demons and Dragons?

adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
I don't know about you, but I'm getting kind-of tired of Demons. We know they are not going away any time soon, as the upcoming Mod 9 is heavily demon-focused as well, but once that is done, we will get something different (well, I hope so).

Now, it may well be that Mod 10 will be Ravenloft-themed, but I am not going to speculate about that now.

My question: What kind of enemies would you ideally like to see introduced in the future (Mod 10 or whatever), and why? Something that looks cool, or something that would just be fun and/or challenging to fight?
Hoping for improvements...
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  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I don't know about you, but I'm getting kind-of tired of Demons. We know they are not going away any time soon, as the upcoming Mod 9 is heavily demon-focused as well, but once that is done, we will get something different (well, I hope so).

    Now, it may well be that Mod 10 will be Ravenloft-themed, but I am not going to speculate about that now.

    My question: What kind of enemies would you ideally like to see introduced in the future (Mod 10 or whatever), and why? Something that looks cool, or something that would just be fun and/or challenging to fight?

    It does seem to be "Season of the Demon (skirmish)". I'd love a chance to have a go at Count Strahd in this game. It was my favorite module for PnP D&D, by far!
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  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    Everyone over at the Cryptic Foundry Authors, thought that our next stop would be Ravenloft. We were all excited. Maps were being built and spooky vampyre mansions too! But then our hopes and dreams got bashed against the rocks when two things occurred.

    1) Maze Engine got announced and 2) Scott (head developer) told us no Foundry update for the remainder of the year.

    Without reward most players don't desire to play the Foundry. However at this point, if you want vampyres or something NEW tell us. We love to do NEW. But there are no Astral Diamonds, no double XP, we cannot even offer you a HAMSTER reward. Click my siggy and talk to the few authors and tell us you care enough to play the Foundry without the need of grand rewards.

    Thank you
    wb-cenders.gif
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  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User

    Ravenloft ain't happening I think. Getting there is one thing, but getting back is another. once there, we'd be closed off to the rest of the game. Terramak already said that would be a problem, even if he'd love to take us there.

    But there's still plenty of evil to be kicked. Would be nice to fight off a githyanki invasion.

    Gith. Would love to kill Gith. Love to play Githzerai, too....
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User

    I want to fight vampires, lots of them. Drow vampires, dwarf vampires, anything but demons, orcs, giants, and cultists.

    Why are there no Demogorgon cultists??? After all, NW is the cultist weirdo capitol of the Sword Coast, isn't it?
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  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    Gith would be awesome. Id much rather see characters like Dak'kon in game, instead of Drizz't
  • zibadawazibadawa Member Posts: 1,266 Arc User
    Rats.

    Lots and lots of rats.

    Not wererats.

    Rats.

    Colossal rats.

    In a colossal sewer.

    Servicing a (colossal) city of (colossal) celestial beings.

    I want to subvert the old "kill a billion rats to advance from noob-hood" trope and make them the most powerful things yielding the most powerful rewards. You've still gotta kill a bunch of them, though.

    What's the Demon Prince of madness even up to, anyway? Just killing some people and razing some cities? Boring. Lame. Predictable. Decidedly non-chaotic. Using some ancient gizmajig to transform simple rats into the greatest threat to reality we've ever seen? Much better.
  • couatl13couatl13 Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    zibadawa said:

    Rats.

    Lots and lots of rats.

    Not wererats.

    Rats.

    Colossal rats.

    In a colossal sewer.

    Servicing a (colossal) city of (colossal) celestial beings.

    I want to subvert the old "kill a billion rats to advance from noob-hood" trope and make them the most powerful things yielding the most powerful rewards. You've still gotta kill a bunch of them, though.

    What's the Demon Prince of madness even up to, anyway? Just killing some people and razing some cities? Boring. Lame. Predictable. Decidedly non-chaotic. Using some ancient gizmajig to transform simple rats into the greatest threat to reality we've ever seen? Much better.

    No no no. You have to face all of the rats in a gauntlet dueling match where you and the rats are all armed with a rapier made of SHARP cheddar and you must battle until one of you declares pumpernickel.
  • wildfiredewildfirede Member Posts: 886 Arc User
    You don't even have to think about the monsters,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_5th_edition_monsters#A92180000_-_Monster_Manual_.282014.29

    Remember Neverwinter (not online) how fighting a dragon was something extraordinary and how many more monsters there were in the game. Evil Wizards, Beholders, Vampires, Monsters from lands far away, hell stick anything in a 5x5 chamber fill with some trash before it and give us some content. With the level reduction mechanic you can make even a local Vampire Lord /Goblin King being challenging without taking the grace from dragons.
    Example - the beholder for the level 60 artifact quest - this instance is seen once per character, and is so much more colorful than the Demigorgon/Dragons we are fighting each day.
    Please fix Zhentarim Warlock companion's skill "Arcane Warping" to the originally intended "Arcane Boost"
    zhentarim-warlock-companion

    Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
    plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
  • zibadawazibadawa Member Posts: 1,266 Arc User

    You don't even have to think about the monsters,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_5th_edition_monsters#A92180000_-_Monster_Manual_.282014.29

    Remember Neverwinter (not online) how fighting a dragon was something extraordinary and how many more monsters there were in the game. Evil Wizards, Beholders, Vampires, Monsters from lands far away, hell stick anything in a 5x5 chamber fill with some trash before it and give us some content. With the level reduction mechanic you can make even a local Vampire Lord /Goblin King being challenging without taking the grace from dragons.
    Example - the beholder for the level 60 artifact quest - this instance is seen once per character, and is so much more colorful than the Demigorgon/Dragons we are fighting each day.

    There is a surprising lack of beholders in the game, now that you mention it. DDO was chock full of the things. Basically had an entire zone full of beholders.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited February 2016
    Beholders are xenophobic isolationists. They should be relatively rare and powerful.
    I actually like the way NW has presented them much more than DDO just for that reason.

    I'd love to see some more general content rather than themes. I think themes are kind of what makes so much of the content feel redundant.

    A lot of the D&D monsters don't fit into themes such as Beholders. It's hard to really describe but there are so many monsters which belong in nooks and crannies. Random encounters so to speak. Yeah you might be in Neverwinter Wood for some big quest line but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be ancient ruins with some sort of boss monster mini dungeon thing.

    I'd love to see the world filled with mini-bosses and side events. Fortified loner wizards that have gargoyles, golems, magical traps and constructs to pose challenges rather than hords of orcs. D&D isn't always about questing with a purpose. Exploration should play a key role as well but I know after two years it is asking too much...

    But I mean...big grand open areas are nice and all. They are flashy and showy...

    But I'd love some good old fashion dungeon delving with random one off monsters. Let's explore a tower with a beholder as a boss or hunt down a banshee in it's hovel. Not everything can and not everything even should tie back to some major story-line. Sometimes things are just there because they happen to be there...

    There really aren't that many options for organized threats in D&D and relying on themes ends up with people burnt out on undead, demons, devils, orcs or whatever else. In order to get the variety we crave the themes have to be put aside at least every once in a while.
  • zibadawazibadawa Member Posts: 1,266 Arc User

    Beholders are xenophobic isolationists. They should be relatively rare and powerful.
    I actually like the way NW has presented them much more than DDO just for that reason.

    I'd love to see some more general content rather than themes. I think themes are kind of what makes so much of the content feel redundant.

    A lot of the D&D monsters don't fit into themes such as Beholders. It's hard to really describe but there are so many monsters which belong in nooks and crannies. Random encounters so to speak. Yeah you might be in Neverwinter Wood for some big quest line but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be ancient ruins with some sort of boss monster mini dungeon thing.

    I'd love to see the world filled with mini-bosses and side events. Fortified loner wizards that have gargoyles, golems, magical traps and constructs to pose challenges rather than hords of orcs. D&D isn't always about questing with a purpose. Exploration should play a key role as well but I know after two years it is asking too much...

    But I mean...big grand open areas are nice and all. They are flashy and showy...

    But I'd love some good old fashion dungeon delving with random one off monsters. Let's explore a tower with a beholder as a boss or hunt down a banshee in it's hovel. Not everything can and not everything even should tie back to some major story-line. Sometimes things are just there because they happen to be there...

    There really aren't that many options for organized threats in D&D and relying on themes ends up with people burnt out on undead, demons, devils, orcs or whatever else. In order to get the variety we crave the themes have to be put aside at least every once in a while.

    Side content isn't likely to survive if it isn't relevant content for gaming. No good endgame drops? No optimal farming? No alternative path through the dungeon that at least offers a "Shorter but harder" versus "Longer but safer" type of choice? You could put extra rewards/drops in the final chest, just to make people have to actually get through the entire dungeon, if they're that concerned about people just farming up to the optional stuff and then leaving. Without any of these things it means people won't want to bother, and in a 5-man party it's pretty much guaranteed people won't want to deal with it. There's some sort of optional mini-boss encounter in Malabog's Castle or something apparently, for example, and I've never once done it. Seen the cutscene once or twice, but nobody bothers, because it's just a waste of time.

    And as for beholders being solitary loners: so are dragons. And yet we've got bunches of those. And Demon Princes aren't usually the type to go around cooperating with each other (that's what Devils do), but yet that appears to be going on.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited February 2016
    I didn't say side content although I can see why you made that conclusion.

    I said content which is not bound to a theme. Forgo the huge open area with a solid theme and work on content which is not tied to a theme. There's no reason that dungeons have to be tied to some event. They could be dungeons that happen to be there. That was my point.

    Dragons are united due to a goal to resurrect Tiamat and while they tend to be in very small groups they will congregate for a common goal: that is not the case with beholders. Demons will also work together for a common goal particularly if it involves getting to the prime material plane and of course all those of a lower rank will tend to fall in tow of the princes or or whichever higher authority is threatening them to follow them. It's just a matter that their loyalty is paper thin.

    Beholders outright hate all creatures other then themselves including other beholders. Seeing more than one beholder in an area is very rare as they pathologically believe that all other creatures are plotting against them. Demons and devils worry (rightly so) that they are being plotted against but beholders *know* others are plotting against them so they next to never work together under any circumstance.
  • zibadawazibadawa Member Posts: 1,266 Arc User

    I didn't say side content although I can see why you made that conclusion.

    I said content which is not bound to a theme. Forgo the huge open area with a solid theme and work on content which is not tied to a theme. There's no reason that dungeons have to be tied to some event. They could be dungeons that happen to be there. That was my point.

    Dragons are united due to a goal to resurrect Tiamat and while they tend to be in very small groups they will congregate for a common goal: that is not the case with beholders. Demons will also work together for a common goal particularly if it involves getting to the prime material plane and of course all those of a lower rank will tend to fall in tow of the princes or or whichever higher authority is threatening them to follow them. It's just a matter that their loyalty is paper thin.

    Beholders outright hate all creatures other then themselves including other beholders. Seeing more than one beholder in an area is very rare as they pathologically believe that all other creatures are plotting against them. Demons and devils worry (rightly so) that they are being plotted against but beholders *know* others are plotting against them so they next to never work together under any circumstance.

    There are two bickering beholders in the Stronghold. They seem less concerned about plots from each other as they are about arguing which of them has the biggest stalks and can kill the most locals. They're basically a couple of stereotypical jocks fighting over a babe.
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  • throsbithrosbi Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    Who needs deep dark dungeons when you have Demons........come on man its Demons. Times change whats a few letters anyway
  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    Give me Ravenloft!
  • thornbr1ngerthornbr1nger Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    For everyone who complains about we need a killer dungeon for BIS - BRING ON ACERAK AND "THE TOMB OF HORRORS" lol the original party killer muuuwhaaa lol

    White Plume mountain would be a close second or Halaster'so Undermountain.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I don't think Tomb of Horrors would fit this game. There was very little combat in it and most of the danger came from "gotcha!" traps.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • kuero21kuero21 Member Posts: 454 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    adinosii said:

    I don't know about you, but I'm getting kind-of tired of Demons. We know they are not going away any time soon, as the upcoming Mod 9 is heavily demon-focused as well, but once that is done, we will get something different (well, I hope so).

    Now, it may well be that Mod 10 will be Ravenloft-themed, but I am not going to speculate about that now.

    My question: What kind of enemies would you ideally like to see introduced in the future (Mod 10 or whatever), and why? Something that looks cool, or something that would just be fun and/or challenging to fight?

    Well we have had werewolves for a while and now, due to R.A. Salvatore we got Drow Vampires. Soooo, why not make it a twilight saga? Team Pwent for the win!

    On a serious note, I would like to explore the nine heIIs. But that's basically the main lore for demons soo..
  • thornbr1ngerthornbr1nger Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    Regarding Tomb of Horrors. You could build a event/Dungeon that would actually take strategy and the entire communitys problem solving to figure out. For example - I came to Neverwinter from Final Fantasy 11. One of my favorites on FFXI was an event called "Salvage". It consisted of 4 zones that you had to first farm points to gain entrance. Each zone had a set time limit and had different bosses that would only appear once certain conditions were met (which the community had to figure out on their own and it took almost a year to figure EVERYTHING out). For example there were four slime mobs that were highly resistant to physical damage but took insane magic damage in one zone. However it turned out you had to physical damage each one until their appearance changed (they gained these "spikes" on their heads). Only then could you kill them, which would in turn trigger the boss pop. People for months just nuked the he'll out of them and couldn't understand why the boss never appeared.
    Furthermore you started out with your gear "locked" and had to unlock it as you progressed further into the zone. Some zones it was impossible to unlock every single piece of the party's gear so you had to pick and choose what was optimal.
    The only problem with the event was the insane drop rates on the gear. It was a hardcore event for hardcore players but not because it was totally gear dependent. It required organization, group synergy, and actually skill/timing. Players loved it, just hated the 1% drop rate on the gear lol.
  • thornbr1ngerthornbr1nger Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    Also I like the idea of the revolt of Gith and the Mindflayer empire.
  • tomerant#1526 tomerant Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    I don't know.... I'm tired of orcs, goblins, elves, fairies and other fantasy stuff.
    Having something different and somewhat unique is refreshing...

    All mmos have same monsters to kill. Neverwinter has it's own stuff. I kinda appreciate that.
  • zibadawazibadawa Member Posts: 1,266 Arc User

    Also I like the idea of the revolt of Gith and the Mindflayer empire.

    We already have mindflayers just kind of randomly being everywhere, for unexplained or poorly explained reasons, though.
  • thornbr1ngerthornbr1nger Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    Yeah they've been introduced already so it should be easy to tie in the Githyanki. Could make the next expansion in the Astral or ethereal plane.
  • azaziel35azaziel35 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Right now this is set in the time of the spellplague right? Well why not start following along with the main D&D storyline some the Main D&D pen and paper world in their worlds time is far ahead of what is in this games storyline. They have Gods battling each other with chosen. Introduce chosen paragon powers where you can become a chosen of your God. Introduce Alignments and Dark or neutral Gods and Goddesses. Introduce Infernal powers for the warlocks and tiflings to beable to call upon and invoke. I play a Tiefling warlock now and had to choose kelemvore god of the dead just to justify playing that charachter. And that is still not world or roleplay correct for that charachter. The other Gods and Goddesses for a warlock could you imagine a warlock of Tyr calling on and making pacts with infernal powers??

    Come on devs. You want to base a whole game off D&D sword coast and do so well gettin most of the lore correct and then dont even offer us alignment or approriate God or higher power choices for the game or content to go with it? Not saying that i am evil but I enjoy the Roleplay as much as the action as most of the players here do.

    Start progressing the worlds timeline with the story line this is after all a persistent changing game world right? Well get with the program and start progressing it you want content well you apparently have the liscencing from Wizards of the coast to use their products content well use it for Gods sakes. You have plenty of material to make additions and content for this game just off the D&D world and story line spellplague to the sundering. I would love as well as others I expect to see sundering content IG.
  • azaziel35azaziel35 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Also during the spellplague the Shadovar who are no joke bad bad bad and bad to the bone powerful beings are trying to take over the known realms especially the sword coast. Also you have Demons and Devils vying for power Asmodius is trying to find and take the other pieces of the fractured God of thieves Masks Divinity so he can become the lord of the 9 hells. And Shar the void Goddess is on a campaign with her chosen which one of those is a demi God with part of the divinity of masks power to take over Faerun and eat the whole world of Toril. All leading up to the sundering and the rebirth of Mystra the Goddess of magic.
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