Knockbacks?

aucka · February 2016

Just about every MMO I've played gives certain classes (usually cloth or light armor-wearing casters) a knockback ability, sometimes coupled with a root, and usually intended as more of a PvP type skill than one that's useful in PvE.

But it seems like practically every class in Neverwinter has not just one knockback, but several. Am I the only one in the history of MMOs who finds it incredibly annoying when you round up a huge pack of mobs, start AOEing them, and some joker comes charging in and blasts them all 20 feet in every direction?

I swear this happens CONSTANTLY. Usually in group finder groups, but I've even had it happen in open world play. I was doing vigilance tasks on my OP last week, and had this helpful Cleric following me around, waiting for me to round things up, and then blasting them away from me. They refused to stop when I asked nicely, and in fact didn't even respond.

Please tell me I'm not the only one driven nearly insane by this type of behavior? I can think of no good design reason to provide so many knockbacks in a game that is so melee heavy (OP, GF, GWF, TR, and even half of HR, are melee). There is absolutely no point for a melee class to knock things away and then chase them down again, only to knock them away a second time. But I see it over and over. Argh!

icyphish · February 2016

hm... how does SW, HR, TR knockback...?

GWF has roar, but nobody uses it... (unless you count Daily...)
DC indeed has a knockback encounter and thats only 1...
OP has a shield knockback although it deals little dmg....
CW has Push back and Oppresive force...

So where does "practically every class in Neverwinter has not just one knockback, but several. " come from...?

jumpingmorks · February 2016

Yes annoying, no they never listen, no don't even try, just breath and remember your dungeon/skirmish will be over eventually.

jumpingmorks · February 2016

icyphish said:
hm... how does SW, HR, TR knockback...?

GWF has roar, but nobody uses it... (unless you count Daily...)
DC indeed has a knockback encounter and thats only 1...
OP has a shield knockback although it deals little dmg....
CW has Push back and Oppresive force...

So where does "practically every class in Neverwinter has not just one knockback, but several. " come from...?

Sunbursters in Tiamat used to drive me nuts until I got my Linus and joined a channel that actually know what they are doing, I still pug heralds though, and yes it's just as pointless asking DC's not to use Astral Seal on Heralds, you pug, you take your chances like most others.

putzboy78 · February 2016

icyphish said:
hm... how does SW, HR, TR knockback...?

GWF has roar, but nobody uses it... (unless you count Daily...)
DC indeed has a knockback encounter and thats only 1...
OP has a shield knockback although it deals little dmg....
CW has Push back and Oppresive force...

So where does "practically every class in Neverwinter has not just one knockback, but several. " come from...?

HR has the seismic shot and boar charge
TR has a impact shot
GF has frontline surge and bullcharge (I know you didn't ask about GF but it was missing from your list.

the challenge with the DC encounter one (sunburst) is that its highly used in solo play in non-divine mode (which does the knock back). For haste clerics this is one of their most effective encounters when used in divine mode (doesn't push back). So same skill is used to different ways depending on style of play. Until the play style becomes muscle memory it can often get misused (or if your like me and generally lack coordination).

putzboy78 · February 2016

jumpingmorks said:

Sunbursters in Tiamat used to drive me nuts until I got my Linus and joined a channel that actually know what they are doing, I still pug heralds though, and yes it's just as pointless asking DC's not to use Astral Seal on Heralds, you pug, you take your chances like most others.

Sunburst in tiamat is genereally used to move mobs way from the clerics. Similar to CWs using repel. It's a temporary solution since they come right back and is often employed by lower damage groups that cannot nuke the mobs straight up. So yeah this is way better in higher ilvl channels that have more damage potential.

sockmunkey · February 2016

putzboy78 said:

icyphish said:
hm... how does SW, HR, TR knockback...?

GWF has roar, but nobody uses it... (unless you count Daily...)
DC indeed has a knockback encounter and thats only 1...
OP has a shield knockback although it deals little dmg....
CW has Push back and Oppresive force...

So where does "practically every class in Neverwinter has not just one knockback, but several. " come from...?

HR has the seismic shot and boar charge
TR has a impact shot
GF has frontline surge and bullcharge (I know you didn't ask about GF but it was missing from your list.

You forgot one of the worst offenders, CWs Ice storm.

santralafax · February 2016

icyphish said:
hm... how does SW, HR, TR knockback...?

GWF has roar, but nobody uses it... (unless you count Daily...)
DC indeed has a knockback encounter and thats only 1...
OP has a shield knockback although it deals little dmg....
CW has Push back and Oppresive force...

So where does "practically every class in Neverwinter has not just one knockback, but several. " come from...?

The one that drives me craziest is the Paladins'. I see it done constantly when I'm readying WMS to whack the whole group. A lot of melees become a push me-pull you with the Paladin against mobs.

I'm now trying out a CW, and repel is a key feature. Don't really blame them, CC is what they do.

neirgara · February 2016

If they don't stop to push back opponents after asking them nicely, just pull the mobs to them and let them do the work alone. Sometimes they get it, if not they tend to leave which makes play for another better player.

If a player does not answer, try to tell them not only in group chat but also as a pm. Some of them have disabled group chat, as stupid as this sounds. If they still don't answer, then they probably don't understand any language except their own (which in my personal experience is Italian, most of the time).

I have a similar problem with Wererats in Throne of Dwarven Gods, who interrupt the hulks. For that I already prepared some Google-Translate sentences in some other languages, that I Copy and Paste. Works surprisingly well.

deusazza · February 2016

I'm a gwf and everytime i'm with someone that does that, I flip out. either "right click>leave party" fast or run along with the party like a fool.

plasticbat · February 2016

For OP's relentice avenger, you don't need to chase them down. They will come back because the OP aggrov the mob with that. Stay with the OP and there is one foe left behind (if it is not killed) for you to hit.

putzboy78 · February 2016

plasticbat said:
For OP's relentice avenger, you don't need to chase them down. They will come back because the OP aggrov the mob with that. Stay with the OP and there is one foe left behind (if it is not killed) for you to hit.

but you did waste your encounters on an OP and the empty space around him

plasticbat · February 2016

putzboy78 said:

plasticbat said:
For OP's relentice avenger, you don't need to chase them down. They will come back because the OP aggrov the mob with that. Stay with the OP and there is one foe left behind (if it is not killed) for you to hit.
but you did waste your encounters on an OP and the empty space around him

There is one guy left behind if the OP is smart enough to hit the big guy (hence, he did not die).

darkstarcrash · February 2016

Yeah, a lot of OP tanks use Relentless Avenger because it gives a lot of AP -- for that perma-bubble you expect from them, right?

For prot pallies, RA has a taunt component, so they come back to the tank. So if you have a tank OP using RA, just wait until he hits the mobs and scatters them, then start attacking when they run back.

Learn to not use your AoE before the mobs return, and save on heartburn medication.

putzboy78 · February 2016

or take a real OP... or learn to survive without the bubble. I prefer the tact GF over perma-bubble paly any day

checkmatein3 · February 2016

The purpose of a knockback in PvE is the opposite of tanking. I will not include PvP as a discussion, as it is a means of chain control.

Knockback does have uses in PvE:
1) Knockback, throws, scatter abilities have the tendency to throw mobs off the edges of maps to their quick deaths. So, rather than fighting mobs until their health bar reaches zero, you can kite/tank a mob near an edge, and then knock them off the edge. This was used often in dungeons like old CN, DV, SP, etc. It is an effective way to save time in a dungeon when there was no power creep.

2) Knockback is a great way to clear a mob off of a non-tanker to allow safe repositioning. Again, without power creep, positioning used to be necessary for some classes. And, when there was not enough stamina, a knockback (or knock away) ability, would give time to the player (whether from his own power use or another) to gain position, or lose aggro, or both. The problem is that this function is rarely needed due to power creep, the perma-bubble of the OP, and removal of the old style dungeons that limited playing space (like the final boss at SP) or that required a distance knockback in large AoE to give time and take aggro (Frozen Heart, Dread Vault).

3) Knockback is way to keep an NPC from reaching a particular point, or isolating a particular foe from a group that is hard to target. If you have grinded out the Burning Arti set mainhand and offhand, then you know that the point of the HE that gives 100% mote drop is to keep the sacrificers from jumping off the end. You can use control, stuns, etc to do this, but you can also use combinations of knockbacks also to push the NPC back away from the edge. Moreover, with a concentration on the sacrificer, and the mobs that spawn, you can use knockback as a way to spread the mob and target the sacrificer first, and complete the HE. You can also use Knockbacks on the Enraged Balurga (sp??) in the Demonic HEs to keep them from reaching the center or the cleric.

Ignorance and discourtesy from other players does not negate the uses of these powers in PvE.

deusazza · February 2016

checkmatein3 said:
The purpose of a knockback in PvE is the opposite of tanking. I will not include PvP as a discussion, as it is a means of chain control.

Knockback does have uses in PvE:
1) Knockback, throws, scatter abilities have the tendency to throw mobs off the edges of maps to their quick deaths. So, rather than fighting mobs until their health bar reaches zero, you can kite/tank a mob near an edge, and then knock them off the edge. This was used often in dungeons like old CN, DV, SP, etc. It is an effective way to save time in a dungeon when there was no power creep.

2) Knockback is a great way to clear a mob off of a non-tanker to allow safe repositioning. Again, without power creep, positioning used to be necessary for some classes. And, when there was not enough stamina, a knockback (or knock away) ability, would give time to the player (whether from his own power use or another) to gain position, or lose aggro, or both. The problem is that this function is rarely needed due to power creep, the perma-bubble of the OP, and removal of the old style dungeons that limited playing space (like the final boss at SP) or that required a distance knockback in large AoE to give time and take aggro (Frozen Heart, Dread Vault).

3) Knockback is way to keep an NPC from reaching a particular point, or isolating a particular foe from a group that is hard to target. If you have grinded out the Burning Arti set mainhand and offhand, then you know that the point of the HE that gives 100% mote drop is to keep the sacrificers from jumping off the end. You can use control, stuns, etc to do this, but you can also use combinations of knockbacks also to push the NPC back away from the edge. Moreover, with a concentration on the sacrificer, and the mobs that spawn, you can use knockback as a way to spread the mob and target the sacrificer first, and complete the HE. You can also use Knockbacks on the Enraged Balurga (sp??) in the Demonic HEs to keep them from reaching the center or the cleric.

Ignorance and discourtesy from other players does not negate the uses of these powers in PvE.

you mentioned the positives. how about the pug's knockbacks of infinite randomness?

this is not about the skills that are there so that you can use them if you want. this is about the people that use them. what is the logic of using a skill to gather them up for aoe damage and then scatter them up just to wait or run after them to hit them again?

checkmatein3 · February 2016

The original post is a complaint about discourteous and ignorant players. However, the OP ended with a statement that there is no discernable design reason for giving knockback ability to so many classes. I just listed 3. Please, before you quote my post, read it again, especially the very last part.

If you find yourself in a party full of PuGs that are ignorant, teach.
If they don't learn, leave.

If you are on a map with someone following you around, teach.
If they don't learn, go to another map instance.

Problem solved.

raydroot · February 2016

I see this in the Tiamat in zerg and custom channel instances, but not in edemo.

beckylunatic · February 2016

aucka said:
Please tell me I'm not the only one driven nearly insane by this type of behavior?

Inappropriate use of knockbacks (including wererat pet) is probably a pet peeve of everyone you're reaching by posting about it here, but most of the people you see doing it, don't read forums.

godsblade · February 2016

Maybe its fun to blow mobs all over the place, esp when they fly off cliffs into blue acid or drop to there deaths off bridges into nasty looking spikes.

Some would call it an form of art to get the spell off at just the right time to get the max number of mobs into the air...and into some nasty pit.

Rolen

putzboy78 · February 2016

raydroot said:
I see this in the Tiamat in zerg and custom channel instances, but not in edemo.

everything in edemo is immune to cc. There's another thread with complaints on that particular issue. For this reason dps builds will always get higher preference than cc builds in edemo

santralafax · February 2016

plasticbat said:
For OP's relentice avenger, you don't need to chase them down. They will come back because the OP aggrov the mob with that. Stay with the OP and there is one foe left behind (if it is not killed) for you to hit.

My experience is that most or all of them get back up. They do regroup--you are right there.

saskdaddy · February 2016

checkmatein3 said:
The purpose of a knockback in PvE is the opposite of tanking. I will not include PvP as a discussion, as it is a means of chain control.

Knockback does have uses in PvE:
1) Knockback, throws, scatter abilities have the tendency to throw mobs off the edges of maps to their quick deaths. So, rather than fighting mobs until their health bar reaches zero, you can kite/tank a mob near an edge, and then knock them off the edge. This was used often in dungeons like old CN, DV, SP, etc. It is an effective way to save time in a dungeon when there was no power creep.

2) Knockback is a great way to clear a mob off of a non-tanker to allow safe repositioning. Again, without power creep, positioning used to be necessary for some classes. And, when there was not enough stamina, a knockback (or knock away) ability, would give time to the player (whether from his own power use or another) to gain position, or lose aggro, or both. The problem is that this function is rarely needed due to power creep, the perma-bubble of the OP, and removal of the old style dungeons that limited playing space (like the final boss at SP) or that required a distance knockback in large AoE to give time and take aggro (Frozen Heart, Dread Vault).

3) Knockback is way to keep an NPC from reaching a particular point, or isolating a particular foe from a group that is hard to target. If you have grinded out the Burning Arti set mainhand and offhand, then you know that the point of the HE that gives 100% mote drop is to keep the sacrificers from jumping off the end. You can use control, stuns, etc to do this, but you can also use combinations of knockbacks also to push the NPC back away from the edge. Moreover, with a concentration on the sacrificer, and the mobs that spawn, you can use knockback as a way to spread the mob and target the sacrificer first, and complete the HE. You can also use Knockbacks on the Enraged Balurga (sp??) in the Demonic HEs to keep them from reaching the center or the cleric.

Ignorance and discourtesy from other players does not negate the uses of these powers in PvE.

Very well stated. One of my toons is a DC and I find it hilarious that these same whiners never say a word as I knock mob after mob off of edges and avoid having to kill them. This drastically reduces the total time necessary to complete the dungeon, as well as making things easier for everyone in the group.... win/win.

While pugs randomly spamming the skill can indeed be frustrating (I've been in these groups when on my CW, so I know all about having my aoe ruined from knockbacks), it is simply a matter of experience and knowledge of your character, it's abilities, and when best to use specific abilities. No different than any other class.

It's not the skill itself that is the problem, as (when used correctly) it is a highly valuable skill... it is only the misuse of the skill that causes frustration. But you have to remember, not everyone may know their characters abilities as well as you do. Getting frustrated, or just leaving, does no one any favours. It's far easier (and a lot less stressful) to simply ask people not to use the skill until it can be used properly (to push mobs off of edges), rather than to rant and rave (or just up and leave). After all, there is ample reason why it's called a 'Pug' group, hmmm?

As the quoted poster stated so succinctly... Ignorance and discourtesy from other players does not negate the uses of these powers in PvE.

Knockbacks?

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