My two cents, but I have no bias in either arguments. Both can be right depending on a lot of stuff.
I build my rogue for PvP mostly--that's my dodge rolls, my stealth regeneration--so yes I can pull off 3 to 4 seconds of restealth. It makes SS and Invisible Infiltrator redundant to me specifically. But my technique is very time sensitive in that every dodge roll or at will (except DHS) is liable to be good or bad for total dps.
As to where would I stand between MI and WK... I'm just smack in the middle. I feel as strongly for my WK now as I did for MI. Either way it works so just pick whichever tastes good. Apples and oranges, tomāto tomäto.
There is a lot of good info in this thread, thanks to all that have contributed. Gave me a few things to look into as I try to get my TR up to where he used to be.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Which is why the people at the "Theory-crafters"... feel that in M7 all TRs are equal. Not OP like so many believe.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Which is why the people at the "Theory-crafters"... feel that in M7 all TRs are equal. Not OP like so many believe.
In pve, maybe so.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
edited September 2015
I have found more Scoundrels and Executioners in PvP than I do Sabos now. There is a big difference in the play styles and the procs that I see landing on me. I see more Shadow of Demise and Concussive Strike than I do Shadowy Opportunity... in fact a lot more.
I have about 50/50 success rate against the new styles of PvP TRs... granted they are at or around the same item level I am. With Sabos... then tend to run away from me before I kill them.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
@kweassa All numbers I provided apply for MI, because of Invisible Infiltrator. For example without it I cant kill golem in 2 SoD procs - Im not sure if I will be able to even if I become BiS, 20% damage bonus for 1st SoD is a lot. 80k smoke bombs become 66k smoke bombs, etc. Instant stealth refill is very handy too, because wasting encounter slot on ss, or feats on stealth gain on rolls is a sacrifice of dps/utility. WK will do the same what MI does... but with lower numbers.
The only thing that is unique for WK and that I found useful is DHS damage reduction. The DoT is nice too, but I didnt place it on too many targets, since its animation is awfully slow and I usually could deal more damage giving the DoT up. However, the damage reduction on bosses/big mobs allows you to tank through more things without the necessity to dodge - during the DR bug Garakas instant flame aura could 1 shot me as MI, but my WK could survive it. Now, without the bug its still useful, because less damage taken = less stealth lost - until tenacious concealment r4 is fixed, that is. Since this is probably 1st thread since ages that doesnt end as PvP-only discussion I will touch another problem I saw many PvE TRs have - overdodging. If it comes to immunity TRs have best defense out of all PvE classes - we have almost the most dodges, they travel the longest distance (which, sadly, often becomes a disadvantage) and grant us the longest immunity frame - but you dont do anything else while dodging. Combat in dungeons is fast-paced and TR is one of the fastest classes. Each second you dont attack you lose DPS and our roll takes awfully long. I saw many TRs spamming rolls against attacks that arent threatening at all, can be evaded by simple side-stepping (or "side-jumping" between DF combo hits), or arent even aimed at them! And they end up spending 30%+ combat time rolling away and walking back to target, interrupting their most powerful combos, losing stacks of Wicked Reminder and sometimes even Duelist Flurry bleeds. Use roll only if its necessary and estimation of situation is also very important part of PvE performance. Here is a trick - you dont need to roll out of red to avoid it - you get the immunity frame even if you roll on red - you just have to know how long does it take from red to appear to actually hit and time your iframe - use it to not roll far away from target but land as close to it as possible. Also, versus big targets, like dragons, scorpions etc. you can roll "into" your target - it will block displacement and you will still get iframe. Dodging cc can be achieved with 3rd strike of DF - timing it for cc immunity combined with max damage output can be hard, though - you often have to delay going between DF hits, but without resetting the combo - its one of things that differ "good" and "great" TRs, imo.
Another dimension is damage that will kill you (or hurt you and kill your stealth bar - fix l4 TC, please) when taken unprotected, but will be manageable with protection your party gives you - this however again requires party wide perspective, knowledge of powers other classes have and how hard exactly enemy hit strikes for. I wont go into detail here as its a topic for a whole thread, but I will give some examples of commonly used protective powers: Fox Cunning (best friend, you dont need to dodge 1 hit and trappers spam it really often), Astral Shield, Knights Valor, Holy Ground, Anointed Army, Divine Glow, Shield of Faith. And of course Divine Protector - but I dont like it, its broken and kills a lot of gameplay - luckily even if you dont take damage you still lose stealth if you get hit. Debuffs on target - Break the Spirit, Bane, Courage Breaker, Divine Glow (Divinity), and for WKs - DHS. And again look at whole party, since, especially when it comes to utility, you will sometimes need to make decisions that can make or break combat ("Im standing on Astral Shield + KV and red is about to explode, BUT our healer next to me is knocked down and 2 mobs are bashing him. If I cast smoke bomb I will save him but I will get hit by red. If so - will I survive? The tank doesnt get heals, because healer is on the ground - will the redirected damage be threatening for him? If I decide to dodge - will healer survive?").
Any advice for rolling up a new WK? I plan on rolling Tiefling. Leveling advice would be great as well. I'll most likely focus on PvE with a very rare PvP daily.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
My suggestion is to choose a Scoundrel build. Focus on STR and DEX.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
WK Scoundrel? Could be interesting. I've been away a long time. Have a build you'd recommend?
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Send me a message in game and I will share it with you, I won't post it on here. It is a very instinctual build and the use of powers adapts constantly. There has been one that was shared here, but that is not the way I went.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Send me a message in game and I will share it with you, I won't post it on here. It is a very instinctual build and the use of powers adapts constantly. There has been one that was shared here, but that is not the way I went.
Could you PM a link to the build? I haven't been able to get on much lately, and we may just have different play times. Could you also briefly list the powers/feats I should get ASAP while leveling?
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Send me a msg here. I have already shared the information in private for someone who swore to keep the build quiet. As for every other build or guide... please use it as a starting point and go the direction you feel is right for you.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
i don't mean to offend u but this build will not work in pvp that well. just to point out 2 important facts, ur build has no stealth duration and lashing blade is a waste of slot. Any good pvp player would slaughter u if u go in with this build.
Comments
I build my rogue for PvP mostly--that's my dodge rolls, my stealth regeneration--so yes I can pull off 3 to 4 seconds of restealth. It makes SS and Invisible Infiltrator redundant to me specifically. But my technique is very time sensitive in that every dodge roll or at will (except DHS) is liable to be good or bad for total dps.
As to where would I stand between MI and WK... I'm just smack in the middle. I feel as strongly for my WK now as I did for MI. Either way it works so just pick whichever tastes good. Apples and oranges, tomāto tomäto.
I'll just rest my case at "WK and MI are now a matter of preference", without necessarily one being better than the other.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I have about 50/50 success rate against the new styles of PvP TRs... granted they are at or around the same item level I am. With Sabos... then tend to run away from me before I kill them.
The only thing that is unique for WK and that I found useful is DHS damage reduction. The DoT is nice too, but I didnt place it on too many targets, since its animation is awfully slow and I usually could deal more damage giving the DoT up. However, the damage reduction on bosses/big mobs allows you to tank through more things without the necessity to dodge - during the DR bug Garakas instant flame aura could 1 shot me as MI, but my WK could survive it. Now, without the bug its still useful, because less damage taken = less stealth lost - until tenacious concealment r4 is fixed, that is.
Since this is probably 1st thread since ages that doesnt end as PvP-only discussion I will touch another problem I saw many PvE TRs have - overdodging. If it comes to immunity TRs have best defense out of all PvE classes - we have almost the most dodges, they travel the longest distance (which, sadly, often becomes a disadvantage) and grant us the longest immunity frame - but you dont do anything else while dodging. Combat in dungeons is fast-paced and TR is one of the fastest classes. Each second you dont attack you lose DPS and our roll takes awfully long. I saw many TRs spamming rolls against attacks that arent threatening at all, can be evaded by simple side-stepping (or "side-jumping" between DF combo hits), or arent even aimed at them! And they end up spending 30%+ combat time rolling away and walking back to target, interrupting their most powerful combos, losing stacks of Wicked Reminder and sometimes even Duelist Flurry bleeds. Use roll only if its necessary and estimation of situation is also very important part of PvE performance. Here is a trick - you dont need to roll out of red to avoid it - you get the immunity frame even if you roll on red - you just have to know how long does it take from red to appear to actually hit and time your iframe - use it to not roll far away from target but land as close to it as possible. Also, versus big targets, like dragons, scorpions etc. you can roll "into" your target - it will block displacement and you will still get iframe. Dodging cc can be achieved with 3rd strike of DF - timing it for cc immunity combined with max damage output can be hard, though - you often have to delay going between DF hits, but without resetting the combo - its one of things that differ "good" and "great" TRs, imo.
Another dimension is damage that will kill you (or hurt you and kill your stealth bar - fix l4 TC, please) when taken unprotected, but will be manageable with protection your party gives you - this however again requires party wide perspective, knowledge of powers other classes have and how hard exactly enemy hit strikes for. I wont go into detail here as its a topic for a whole thread, but I will give some examples of commonly used protective powers: Fox Cunning (best friend, you dont need to dodge 1 hit and trappers spam it really often), Astral Shield, Knights Valor, Holy Ground, Anointed Army, Divine Glow, Shield of Faith. And of course Divine Protector - but I dont like it, its broken and kills a lot of gameplay - luckily even if you dont take damage you still lose stealth if you get hit. Debuffs on target - Break the Spirit, Bane, Courage Breaker, Divine Glow (Divinity), and for WKs - DHS. And again look at whole party, since, especially when it comes to utility, you will sometimes need to make decisions that can make or break combat ("Im standing on Astral Shield + KV and red is about to explode, BUT our healer next to me is knocked down and 2 mobs are bashing him. If I cast smoke bomb I will save him but I will get hit by red. If so - will I survive? The tank doesnt get heals, because healer is on the ground - will the redirected damage be threatening for him? If I decide to dodge - will healer survive?").
A ranged encounter power that initiates Skullcracker without breaking stealth??? Yes, please.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
just to point out 2 important facts, ur build has no stealth duration and lashing blade is a waste of slot. Any good pvp player would slaughter u if u go in with this build.
FYI, lashing blade can be dodged easily.