Just change the LOL set so that you pick your Primary and Secondary stats then all classes will be happy...lol And / or give us better sets to compete. As to class balance, My CW still rocks the way I like to play (right in the middle of all the adds trying to keep up with the GWF). Rene 4.2K killing, buffing, healing machine. You guys really need to calm down.
in terms of this post created we have all lost reason of why we play the game and it now becomes a situation of who carved their diamond in the rough with whats available in game. if it was the case that everyone could get elol set this post would not have been created but due to the few that gave illustrations of bravery and hard work they did on their toon comes criticism. with this i just wanted thank Lia knowles for her gwf build , you made me love my gwf even more its a fun and as my friend says i got a big ego now lol for its a competition between every gwf to get stronger and in my eyes i will check a fellow brother stats when they pass by but never will envy for what i don't have. ps. remember guys its a game not a business have fun
What players should look for is: DPS, tank, control, heal Each class hould be able to perform well enough in their role, depending on build.
Solution: Devs should balance classes and AFTER THAT create content that is fine tuned to require the presence of all the above aspects. Right now the only one left out is "control". So i think that the easiest way is to just design epic dungeons to require a balanced mix of the above. Now, a DPS class/build can deal much more damage than a CC class build, but if dungeons are designed to NEED CC too, then you give CCers their deserved place in a group. Dungeons must be tested, more, with multiple compositions and builds to make sure this happens and no "BiS" composition can surface.
2) I have both eLoL set for PvE and Lathander set. If eLoL stay the same, Lathander set and the others MUST get a power-up. Example: Lathander set might revive on its own (no soulforged needed, allowing for the user to get the resurrect while using, for example, a Negation enchant) AND buff the whole group DR for a short period of time.
I'd rather they don't make higher ilevel terrible when playing dungeons 1-2k below their requirement. Give those a place where they get decent prizes so they stop going 24\7 to lower dungeons and carrying whole teams .
There are a lot of mobs you'd want to control if they were really strong (can't be dps'd in 3 secs) like conjurers. If those had a lot of hp and their aura was scaled to have considerable impact on AP you'd want control to freeze mob like them. Not go with 2k dungeons route where trash mobs oneshot everyone but those extremely overgeared\tanks. [And you know.. Always wondered why there aren't monsters immune to certain damage types\can heavily debuff off player buffs.. those are mobs that sound you'd want variety to kill\CC to slow down.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I'd rather they don't make higher ilevel terrible when playing dungeons 1-2k below their requirement. Give those a place where they get decent prizes so they stop going 24\7 to lower dungeons and carrying whole teams .
There are a lot of mobs you'd want to control if they were really strong (can't be dps'd in 3 secs) like conjurers. If those had a lot of hp and their aura was scaled to have considerable impact on AP you'd want control to freeze mob like them. Not go with 2k dungeons route where trash mobs oneshot everyone but those extremely overgeared\tanks. [And you know.. Always wondered why there aren't monsters immune to certain damage types\can heavily debuff off player buffs.. those are mobs that sound you'd want variety to kill\CC to slow down.
Thing is, even if there were control worthy monsters, a HR specced for control does more damage and control then a CW specced for control. There is literally no benefit to speccing for control on CW since the class is terrible at it in comparison to its closest rival in the control category.
Just wanted to throw my hat into the ring of this glorious thread...
Overall I think one of two things should happen:
1. Lostmauth Set is brought in line with other Artifact Set Bonuses. 2. All other Artifact Sets are reviewed/bumped up to be at least moderately competitive with the Lostmauth Set.
Now, which of these is more likely? I honestly don't know... Though I would hazard a guess that the status quo may remain until at least Mod 9, but that's just a guess.
I, personally, no longer use the Lostmauth Set on my SW, even though it's more 'optimum' from a DPS perspective the Str/Dex bonus on a SW always annoyed me. So, I bit the bullet and changed to the Black Ice Set. Now I am pretty darn near maxed out, and honestly I am still a boon to any party I am in based on experience/gear/feats/etc. Thus I am not advocating people to make the change I did, it was simply my personal preference on how I wanted my character to be.
Either way, something should be done...
@strumslinger Are you aware of any communication to the Devs about the current situation with the Lostmauth Set? Please ignore the HAMSTER for tat arguements in some of the posts above, as @thefabricant did a good job in his OP stating the rather obvious statistical variations via his analysis of the set. It is also something to note that Class Balance will need to be looked at, overall, if any sort of downwards adjustment is made to the Lostmauth Set.
Just hope it's on the Dev's radar and that they are at least trying to come up with some sort of solution.
Either way, keep on rocking everyone and keep it civil...
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
It seemed appropriate given the last page or two of the thread has seen the thread devolve into more 'Class versus Class' arguments instead of the the original point that The Fabricant made...
The Lostmauth Set is over-performing in comparison to other similarly released sets, that much is readily apparent. Some classes, per The Fabricants data, gain a higher % of Super Duper DPS Loving than others. However, the point of the matter remains (and should not be limited to 'Class versus Class' arguments) that something needs to be looked at by the Devs; And that is that either the Lostmauth Set should be adjust downwards or other Sets should be adjusted upwards. Maybe there is a third option that I am missing, but I really think it is as simple as those two things...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
It seemed appropriate given the last page or two of the thread has seen the thread devolve into more 'Class versus Class' arguments instead of the the original point that The Fabricant made...
The Lostmauth Set is over-performing in comparison to other similarly released sets, that much is readily apparent. Some classes, per The Fabricants data, gain a higher % of Super Duper DPS Loving than others. However, the point of the matter remains (and should not be limited to 'Class versus Class' arguments) that something needs to be looked at by the Devs; And that is that either the Lostmauth Set should be adjust downwards or other Sets should be adjusted upwards. Maybe there is a third option that I am missing, but I really think it is as simple as those two things...
The only sane person around, and doing it in style! *thumbs up*
I don't think you need to worry. It's highly unlikely they will do anything. Here's why: this is a f2p game, changing something solely for the sake of balance is not enough reason to do so (unfortunately for gamers). It must be, "Is the imbalance such that it will certainly be detrimental to our business?" The set has been like this for so many months. There is no way to know whether changing it will have a net positive or negative effect to their business. Better to just keep the status quo. This is especially true given how short staffed they are.
I personally miss gear variation. Unfortunately, I'm only a 2.3il Fury SW so I need the lolset in order to be useful, behind GWF, at my one and only job (that's another conversation). I agree that there needs to be a balance in sets as well as classes. Part of the reason controllers are no longer needed is due to perma-bubble. It sadly turns the game into
as you sit and go through rotations without fear of anything. Perma-bubble is all the control you need. This creates incredible demand for the lolset as that becomes the only way to be relevant outside DC or Pally. The OPness of the lolset only adds to the fact that if you're not a Pally or DC you "must" do max DPS, thus must use the lolset. Other mods I'm sure had different issues, but now all you need is DC OP GWF. All other classes are suboptimal because of: 1.) the lolset is OP/other sets being bad 2.) perma-bubble causing monotonous, "mandatory" party composition for the majority of players
3.5k HB Temptation -- Dread Legion Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok My Guide
Even if you were building your CW without the lostmauth set you shouldn't use the Valindra set because the bonus is marginal and the stats are bad. CWs are already giving up 1500 arp with the new rings and artifact weapons, losing another 2060 arp would just mean giving up a lot of crit/power for no reason. You're better off finding a better stat stick and just using the valindra's belt (although that means giving up another 530 arp).
@urabask Valindra's belt gives 2 INT and 2 CHA, which is basically 800 power, 400 recovery and 800 crit, there's room for some power/crit sacrifice don't you think?
CHA also increases CA damage, which is not obtainable elsewhere.
The set simply doesn't behave as it says it does. That's the only excuse you need for wanting it fixed. And you're right in so wanting.
If following the tooltip, it should be 1,8/2,3k damage for each critical attack on a GWF, not 700k.
For those wanting the other sets to be buffed to be equal to Lol set, I think that would be around 100% control bonus on valindra set, which would be pretty fun.
@urabask Valindra's belt gives 2 INT and 2 CHA, which is basically 800 power, 400 recovery and 800 crit, there's room for some power/crit sacrifice don't you think?
You can get that with just the belt though. If you take the whole set you're still losing stats essentially. If the elol sets get nerfed, sure,but I still wouldn't take the whole set unless they re-worked the bonus (and preferably the stats; I still don't get why they keep putting recovery on CW gear).
It seemed appropriate given the last page or two of the thread has seen the thread devolve into more 'Class versus Class' arguments instead of the the original point that The Fabricant made...
The Lostmauth Set is over-performing in comparison to other similarly released sets, that much is readily apparent. Some classes, per The Fabricants data, gain a higher % of Super Duper DPS Loving than others. However, the point of the matter remains (and should not be limited to 'Class versus Class' arguments) that something needs to be looked at by the Devs; And that is that either the Lostmauth Set should be adjust downwards or other Sets should be adjusted upwards. Maybe there is a third option that I am missing, but I really think it is as simple as those two things...
I wish I was better versed at digging up the old forums, because it's the same argument, by quite a few of the same people, that always happens anytime this got brought up. People start whinging about 'striker/controller' this and '4th edition dnd roles' that to distract from the simple fact that the Lostmauth Set is brokenly unbalanced. If you don't think so, I'm not going to try to change your mind. But this shouldn't be surprising to anyone, least of all the devs, and we've asked and asked and asked them for an official stance and the only official word is that it is "working as intended". Despite being almost the exact same mechanic as the nerfed Stormspell, which wasn't working as intended, that's what we've got.
So for now, I use it, like nearly everyone else. But I won't shed a tear for my invested RP if they ever fix it, and people who believe somehow that because they have dumped time and effort into it means it shouldn't be nerfed should stop playing MMO's. That's how they work, sorry folks. Anyway, cynical rant over!
I wish I was better versed at digging up the old forums, because it's the same argument, by quite a few of the same people, that always happens anytime this got brought up. People start whinging about 'striker/controller' this and '4th edition dnd roles' that to distract from the simple fact that the Lostmauth Set is brokenly unbalanced. If you don't think so, I'm not going to try to change your mind. But this shouldn't be surprising to anyone, least of all the devs, and we've asked and asked and asked them for an official stance and the only official word is that it is "working as intended". Despite being almost the exact same mechanic as the nerfed Stormspell, which wasn't working as intended, that's what we've got.
So for now, I use it, like nearly everyone else. But I won't shed a tear for my invested RP if they ever fix it, and people who believe somehow that because they have dumped time and effort into it means it shouldn't be nerfed should stop playing MMO's. That's how they work, sorry folks. Anyway, cynical rant over!
I completely agree. People think the arguments made here have some sway over the devs. It isn't objective at all however. I use the set on 3 chars. I know it is way out of whack, but I don't mind admitting it because:
1) I don't think they're ever going to do anything about. It is way past that if nothing else. Just like I mentioned in my previous post, there is just no incentive from their perspective. To think that a few biased posts here is going to the get their attention is just wishful.
2) If they did, I wouldn't mind. Hopefully, it means they are getting back to putting effort in the game play aspects, including fixing numerous major imbalances.
3) And it's just undeniable if you are being objective. I'd rather be truthful than sound like someone who would say anything to get what he wants.
I also have the set on 3 chars. This set was one of the reasons I quit this game. It isn't isolated simply to this set but because of how obvious the problem is and how easy the remedy would have been and that the devs have done nothing in all this time is all the reason anyone ever needs to know when considering the quality of this game and whether the devs are serious about it or not. Consider the ring blunders, the ap gain insanity, the power creep and power disparity, their ruin of pvp with imbalance and gated drains and such -- that should be more than enough for even the stalwart hold outs to see.
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blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
Another issue you must take into account:
You can complete dungeons with or without lostmauth set. The former will be a little faster maybe, but you have unlimited time, so time isn't really a factor. You can beat most of dungeons with 2-2,5 IL, if you know what to do and have the necessary party composition.
But think about Epic Demogorgon and Tiamat. Time factor is important, without high enough dps, you can't win 3x gold. True, it's not necessary for winning the +5 rings or twisted weapons (both drop randomly), but still everybody wants gold for 2x ichors. But without dps, you can't even win silver, or bronze. (Yes, you can, if everybody know what to do, but even 1 person is enough, who targets black, or one gwf who runs ahead in phase 3 and locks demo in a bad position etc.)
You can easily complete E.demo with a custom channel party or guild party. But try to do it with random queue. In most cases you can't win 3x gold. There are people there, that (even with 2500) IL not prepared for endgame. I see a lot of people (dps) there with 20% or so armorpen, or support classes who does not use the correct powers. You can argue, that these chars should not be allowed to even enter (like arguments when Tiamat came out), but it won't change, because devs will not lock out most of the population from the new content. At current stage, high IL people can still carry a few of them in an edemo fight.
So, to the point: Lostmauth set counts as 15-30% of total damage, even more important, it brings much higher dps, which is important because of the time limit. With the Lostmauth set OverPowered as it is (no argument about that), queues still fail in a big percentage, (even channel parties sometimes, made of 3k+ IL, but not dps builds). Without it, random queues would be simply doomed. (think about how many times you win or lose in a 5 seconds difference! - even with premade)
And nerfing lostmauth would make the game even more elitist. People not only would want 3,5k+ members in party, but also maybe only pve specced high dps members etc. This can't be solved simply by shouting at people to learn to play before enter edemo, or make themselves 3k etc. (Just think about, how many times people swear, when someboy opens green portals or can't hit yellow). Current endgame (Demogorgon) is a dps race. Even with yellow-black mechanism, and all other new mechanisms. It would change, if people could queue in 10 char parties (I know you can sync), and could follow everybodies contribution, and give advices. But with current player mentality, (people frustrated if one stage is not gold, shouting when people hitting black) it won't happen.
I would not be against nerfing lostmauth set, (and if we are already there, they should change every damage, that comes passively, like CW storm spell etc to active damage. Maybe some kind of combo system/ or whatever, just increase encounter damage). But a nerf alone without some adjustment to class dps would hurt more than help . Yes, GWF, SW and HR would be maybe much closer in the terms of damage and dps. But failed demos and tiamats would be also more common.
But, I still think, that lostmauth is not the biggest problem in game, like a lot of people cries. Some of the current meta is completely wrong. In latest mods dungeons became a walkover (before mod 6), so people not only expected to complete them (which in mod 1-2 were already a succes), but to complete them fast. So when mod 6 came out with unbeatable t2 dungeons, people cried about game being too hard. So they still cry when demogorgon is not gold. I think we need hard dungeons, but not introduced like demogorgon. It's a MOD8 main feature, devs would be stupid to lock out paying customers from it. We need T3 dungeons with correct rewards (come on, protector seals are joke!), that worth grinding for. And not as MOD9 feature, but some ongoing add-on, so people would not feel completely excluded from a mod.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
You can complete dungeons with or without lostmauth set. The former will be a little faster maybe, but you have unlimited time, so time isn't really a factor. You can beat most of dungeons with 2-2,5 IL, if you know what to do and have the necessary party composition.
But think about Epic Demogorgon and Tiamat. Time factor is important, without high enough dps, you can't win 3x gold. True, it's not necessary for winning the +5 rings or twisted weapons (both drop randomly), but still everybody wants gold for 2x ichors. But without dps, you can't even win silver, or bronze. (Yes, you can, if everybody know what to do, but even 1 person is enough, who targets black, or one gwf who runs ahead in phase 3 and locks demo in a bad position etc.)
You can easily complete E.demo with a custom channel party or guild party. But try to do it with random queue. In most cases you can't win 3x gold. There are people there, that (even with 2500) IL not prepared for endgame. I see a lot of people (dps) there with 20% or so armorpen, or support classes who does not use the correct powers. You can argue, that these chars should not be allowed to even enter (like arguments when Tiamat came out), but it won't change, because devs will not lock out most of the population from the new content. At current stage, high IL people can still carry a few of them in an edemo fight.
So, to the point: Lostmauth set counts as 15-30% of total damage, even more important, it brings much higher dps, which is important because of the time limit. With the Lostmauth set OverPowered as it is (no argument about that), queues still fail in a big percentage, (even channel parties sometimes, made of 3k+ IL, but not dps builds). Without it, random queues would be simply doomed. (think about how many times you win or lose in a 5 seconds difference! - even with premade)
And nerfing lostmauth would make the game even more elitist. People not only would want 3,5k+ members in party, but also maybe only pve specced high dps members etc. This can't be solved simply by shouting at people to learn to play before enter edemo, or make themselves 3k etc. (Just think about, how many times people swear, when someboy opens green portals or can't hit yellow). Current endgame (Demogorgon) is a dps race. Even with yellow-black mechanism, and all other new mechanisms. It would change, if people could queue in 10 char parties (I know you can sync), and could follow everybodies contribution, and give advices. But with current player mentality, (people frustrated if one stage is not gold, shouting when people hitting black) it won't happen.
I would not be against nerfing lostmauth set, (and if we are already there, they should change every damage, that comes passively, like CW storm spell etc to active damage. Maybe some kind of combo system/ or whatever, just increase encounter damage). But a nerf alone without some adjustment to class dps would hurt more than help . Yes, GWF, SW and HR would be maybe much closer in the terms of damage and dps. But failed demos and tiamats would be also more common.
But, I still think, that lostmauth is not the biggest problem in game, like a lot of people cries. Some of the current meta is completely wrong. In latest mods dungeons became a walkover (before mod 6), so people not only expected to complete them (which in mod 1-2 were already a succes), but to complete them fast. So when mod 6 came out with unbeatable t2 dungeons, people cried about game being too hard. So they still cry when demogorgon is not gold. I think we need hard dungeons, but not introduced like demogorgon. It's a MOD8 main feature, devs would be stupid to lock out paying customers from it. We need T3 dungeons with correct rewards (come on, protector seals are joke!), that worth grinding for. And not as MOD9 feature, but some ongoing add-on, so people would not feel completely excluded from a mod.
still overpowered, no reasons to not fix it. 1)it should not crit. 2)it should only be boosted by power and external debuffs and not personal feats.
im actually ok with the set but is one of the main causes for gwfs to be so ridicolously overpowered. If this is the price to make other strikers a little bit more relevant, just nerf it.
So you think it's ok for new content to take into account a set that has been broken since it got released? I beg to differ. Building on broken content is a sure way to total collapse.
Isn't that what Cryptic have been doing from the start? It is an honest question btw.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
What is funny, is that for a good amount of time many who acquired the set early were quite pleased to have that extra advantage in addition to mythic artifacts and legendary gear. Now that more and more players manage to complete the set (I finally spent 500k to have it on my CW, I have it on my GFW for a couple months but sadly no much time to play anymore) suddenly the nerf! cries are gathering up.
Bottom line: don't nerf it, I just bought it - it was a target in a game missing purpose. Nerf it 6 months down the road, in 3 months time I'll have time to play
Again, all I can say is:
There have been threads calling for a fix (not even a nerf, just the mechanic behaving the way it is theoretically supposed to) since the day it came out. When the devs fixed Storm Spell (almost the exactly same mechanic, with the only difference being it was a free class mechanic instead of something you had to invest something in) and left the Lostmauth bonus in, there were threads upon threads asking why. This isn't anything new, nor is it just that now the few people who were able to afford it back in the day are now seeing the 'unwashed masses' catching up.
Is it the largest issue facing Neverwinter? Not by a long shot. Is it symptomatic of one of the (to me) scariest issues with the game? Damn straight it is. There is no reason for this set to have gone unchanged for as long as it has, and it's terrifying that the devs find it completely fine to put out something that so blatantly changes the power curve and let it remain unbalanced for so long.
The absolutely worst part is that had they done something about it back when it first was being discussed, they'd have made a few people unhappy - you always will balancing anything. But now that they've let it proliferate, they're going to have huge swathes of players screaming bloody murder if they fix it. Should never have gotten to this point in the first place, but just biting the bullet and making the change (like what they did with the economy) is still the better solution. Hopefully someone upstairs realizes that. I'll remain hopeful even while tempering expectations.
What Rayrdan says is right. eLoL set should not get buffed by self-buffs. Since GWFs have by far more self-buffs than other classes, fixing eLoL set this way would result in a normalization of set performance and cut a bigger chunk of DPS from GWFs, balancing the DPS field more. Also unlinking the damage from weapon damage would add. Instead of making it scale with weapon damage, it should be a fixed amount for every class. Let's say, 1k damage. Cause GWFs weapon damage is over 2k, while other classes have, for example, 1.5kish weapon damage. 25% difference just from that, in set performance.
Obviously some class changes and path-specific changes must be done too. But just normalizing eLoL set would make a difference.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
What Rayrdan says is right. eLoL set should not get buffed by self-buffs. Since GWFs have by far more self-buffs than other classes, fixing eLoL set this way would result in a normalization of set performance and cut a bigger chunk of DPS from GWFs, balancing the DPS field more. Also unlinking the damage from weapon damage would add. Instead of making it scale with weapon damage, it should be a fixed amount for every class. Let's say, 1k damage. Cause GWFs weapon damage is over 2k, while other classes have, for example, 1.5kish weapon damage. 25% difference just from that, in set performance.
Obviously some class changes and path-specific changes must be done too. But just normalizing eLoL set would make a difference.
Finally, you acknowledged what I've been trying to tell you the whole time.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
You can complete dungeons with or without lostmauth set. The former will be a little faster maybe, but you have unlimited time, so time isn't really a factor. You can beat most of dungeons with 2-2,5 IL, if you know what to do and have the necessary party composition.
But think about Epic Demogorgon and Tiamat. Time factor is important, without high enough dps, you can't win 3x gold. True, it's not necessary for winning the +5 rings or twisted weapons (both drop randomly), but still everybody wants gold for 2x ichors. But without dps, you can't even win silver, or bronze. (Yes, you can, if everybody know what to do, but even 1 person is enough, who targets black, or one gwf who runs ahead in phase 3 and locks demo in a bad position etc.)
You can easily complete E.demo with a custom channel party or guild party. But try to do it with random queue. In most cases you can't win 3x gold. There are people there, that (even with 2500) IL not prepared for endgame. I see a lot of people (dps) there with 20% or so armorpen, or support classes who does not use the correct powers. You can argue, that these chars should not be allowed to even enter (like arguments when Tiamat came out), but it won't change, because devs will not lock out most of the population from the new content. At current stage, high IL people can still carry a few of them in an edemo fight.
So, to the point: Lostmauth set counts as 15-30% of total damage, even more important, it brings much higher dps, which is important because of the time limit. With the Lostmauth set OverPowered as it is (no argument about that), queues still fail in a big percentage, (even channel parties sometimes, made of 3k+ IL, but not dps builds). Without it, random queues would be simply doomed. (think about how many times you win or lose in a 5 seconds difference! - even with premade)
And nerfing lostmauth would make the game even more elitist. People not only would want 3,5k+ members in party, but also maybe only pve specced high dps members etc. This can't be solved simply by shouting at people to learn to play before enter edemo, or make themselves 3k etc. (Just think about, how many times people swear, when someboy opens green portals or can't hit yellow). Current endgame (Demogorgon) is a dps race. Even with yellow-black mechanism, and all other new mechanisms. It would change, if people could queue in 10 char parties (I know you can sync), and could follow everybodies contribution, and give advices. But with current player mentality, (people frustrated if one stage is not gold, shouting when people hitting black) it won't happen.
I would not be against nerfing lostmauth set, (and if we are already there, they should change every damage, that comes passively, like CW storm spell etc to active damage. Maybe some kind of combo system/ or whatever, just increase encounter damage). But a nerf alone without some adjustment to class dps would hurt more than help . Yes, GWF, SW and HR would be maybe much closer in the terms of damage and dps. But failed demos and tiamats would be also more common.
But, I still think, that lostmauth is not the biggest problem in game, like a lot of people cries. Some of the current meta is completely wrong. In latest mods dungeons became a walkover (before mod 6), so people not only expected to complete them (which in mod 1-2 were already a succes), but to complete them fast. So when mod 6 came out with unbeatable t2 dungeons, people cried about game being too hard. So they still cry when demogorgon is not gold. I think we need hard dungeons, but not introduced like demogorgon. It's a MOD8 main feature, devs would be stupid to lock out paying customers from it. We need T3 dungeons with correct rewards (come on, protector seals are joke!), that worth grinding for. And not as MOD9 feature, but some ongoing add-on, so people would not feel completely excluded from a mod.
poeple can play and without lostmauth you know the multiprocs from companion gifts...................
Finally, you acknowledged what I've been trying to tell you the whole time.
Or maybe you didn't understand a f...about what I was trying to say the whole time. Like many hard-headed users on this forum. Those things are written in countless of my posts even in old threads. Congrats for being the 100th user to fail at just reading what other users write and suggest. Plus, for example, if you pay attention i posted many times about changes to normalize GWFs. The big difference between me and you is that my changes are a mix of tone down of some aspects and buff of others, while your suggestions (and those of many others) are just a brainless "pleaaaaseeee neeeerffff GWF damageeeeeeeeeee".
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Finally, you acknowledged what I've been trying to tell you the whole time.
Or maybe you didn't understand a f...about what I was trying to say the whole time. Like many hard-headed users on this forum. Plus, for example, if you pay attention i posted many times about changes to normalize GWFs. The big difference between me and you is that my changes are a mix of tone down of some aspects and buff of others, while your suggestions (and those of many others) are just a brainless "pleaaaaseeee neeeerffff GWF damageeeeeeeeeee".
Oh i'm always nice unless sommeone tries to troll me, ignoring everything i say,ì and then writing that i "finally acknowledged" something that is written already in countless of my posts. I'm also very nice because i do not insult the trolls. I just point out all the nonsense they write.
I think my first post about eLoL set possible fixes and interactions is a few months old. And at the time i got replies saying that i "just wanted it nerfed cuz i didn't have it". And that i obviously needed to "L2P". Now i wrote the exact same things and the next genius pops up saying i finally acknowledged the very same things.
I can't be more polite than this with this kind of users.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
Must fix eLoL set before making changes to a whole class. And eToS is not "the hardest", more like the easiest of the 2k epics. And Lazalia, as said, is a old player, most experienced GWF that doubles the requirement for that dungeon.
So GG to Lazalia but soloing an epic dungeon is sign of, probably, some issue. I'd start fixing eLoL set.
"Fixing" the LoL set is also going to nerf every other class, it's the GWF's base weapon damage and damage multiplier buffs that is making him stand out so much, not the LoL set itself. You guys keep repeating it yourselves, GWF shines after a certain amount of gear, so the end-game of the class that is out of control... that is exactly the case because of too many multipliers. Attack speed through Determination phase, hidden daggers, etc.
I don't know why every other class has to suffer through a global nerf because one class is out of line. It's like a kindergarden child not being able to build it's own sandcastle and now it wants to destroy everyone else's as well.
Also the "don't nerf a class because of 1 person" argument is soooo invalid. It's not about the rest of the community being jealous of lazalia, it's about how strong a single class can get. Lazalia brings out the most of the class, shows you what it is capable of. But at the same time, it also means that anyone is able to reach the same power as lazalia, perhaps even more. This performance has to be nerfed, the power-ceiling of the class. Saying "but it's Lazalia" is like saying, "the rest of the GWF community is not good enough to play the class to it's full potential". If you are comparing full potential of the GWF class to the full potential of another class, the difference is immense. GWFs are ahead by miles, because again, the multipliers allow the class to reach a much higher end-game ceiling than any other class.
Edit: Also, if you think nerfing the LoL set is going to solve the problem, what will happen to the similar effects introduced in the future? Will those have to be nerfed as well, affecting other classes again, because the GWF is too OP with it? Because you know, the GWF multipliers are still there to make the effect a lot stronger for the GWF than for any other class. Another reasoning I don't understand is: "For other classes, it also makes up for 30% of their damage, so those are just as overpowered with the LoL as the GWF." This is so wrong. Let me exaggerate here a bit so you can see the contrast better. Class A starts hitting target, target receives 1000 damage in total in 1 minute. 30% of this is LoL set, that's 300 damage. Class B starts hitting target, target receives 1000000 damage in total in 1 minute. 30% of this is LoL set, that's 300000 damage.
Even if 2 classes both receive a 30% damage increase, it doesn't mean the set is just as effective for both. It only means that both classes are capable of utilizing the set, but one class does way more damage due to some other internal factors. A nerf to the LoL set is still going to hit both classes just as hard, but class A didn't need to be hit by it.
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ps. remember guys its a game not a business have fun
1) Class balance
What players should look for is: DPS, tank, control, heal
Each class hould be able to perform well enough in their role, depending on build.
Solution: Devs should balance classes and AFTER THAT create content that is fine tuned to require the presence of all the above aspects. Right now the only one left out is "control". So i think that the easiest way is to just design epic dungeons to require a balanced mix of the above. Now, a DPS class/build can deal much more damage than a CC class build, but if dungeons are designed to NEED CC too, then you give CCers their deserved place in a group.
Dungeons must be tested, more, with multiple compositions and builds to make sure this happens and no "BiS" composition can surface.
2) I have both eLoL set for PvE and Lathander set. If eLoL stay the same, Lathander set and the others MUST get a power-up. Example: Lathander set might revive on its own (no soulforged needed, allowing for the user to get the resurrect while using, for example, a Negation enchant) AND buff the whole group DR for a short period of time.
There are a lot of mobs you'd want to control if they were really strong (can't be dps'd in 3 secs) like conjurers. If those had a lot of hp and their aura was scaled to have considerable impact on AP you'd want control to freeze mob like them. Not go with 2k dungeons route where trash mobs oneshot everyone but those extremely overgeared\tanks. [And you know.. Always wondered why there aren't monsters immune to certain damage types\can heavily debuff off player buffs.. those are mobs that sound you'd want variety to kill\CC to slow down.
Just wanted to throw my hat into the ring of this glorious thread...
Overall I think one of two things should happen:
1. Lostmauth Set is brought in line with other Artifact Set Bonuses.
2. All other Artifact Sets are reviewed/bumped up to be at least moderately competitive with the Lostmauth Set.
Now, which of these is more likely? I honestly don't know... Though I would hazard a guess that the status quo may remain until at least Mod 9, but that's just a guess.
I, personally, no longer use the Lostmauth Set on my SW, even though it's more 'optimum' from a DPS perspective the Str/Dex bonus on a SW always annoyed me. So, I bit the bullet and changed to the Black Ice Set. Now I am pretty darn near maxed out, and honestly I am still a boon to any party I am in based on experience/gear/feats/etc. Thus I am not advocating people to make the change I did, it was simply my personal preference on how I wanted my character to be.
Either way, something should be done...
@strumslinger Are you aware of any communication to the Devs about the current situation with the Lostmauth Set? Please ignore the HAMSTER for tat arguements in some of the posts above, as @thefabricant did a good job in his OP stating the rather obvious statistical variations via his analysis of the set. It is also something to note that Class Balance will need to be looked at, overall, if any sort of downwards adjustment is made to the Lostmauth Set.
Just hope it's on the Dev's radar and that they are at least trying to come up with some sort of solution.
Either way, keep on rocking everyone and keep it civil...
haha love the choice of hat toss
It seemed appropriate given the last page or two of the thread has seen the thread devolve into more 'Class versus Class' arguments instead of the the original point that The Fabricant made...
The Lostmauth Set is over-performing in comparison to other similarly released sets, that much is readily apparent. Some classes, per The Fabricants data, gain a higher % of Super Duper DPS Loving than others. However, the point of the matter remains (and should not be limited to 'Class versus Class' arguments) that something needs to be looked at by the Devs; And that is that either the Lostmauth Set should be adjust downwards or other Sets should be adjusted upwards. Maybe there is a third option that I am missing, but I really think it is as simple as those two things...
*thumbs up*
I don't think you need to worry. It's highly unlikely they will do anything. Here's why: this is a f2p game, changing something solely for the sake of balance is not enough reason to do so (unfortunately for gamers). It must be, "Is the imbalance such that it will certainly be detrimental to our business?" The set has been like this for so many months. There is no way to know whether changing it will have a net positive or negative effect to their business. Better to just keep the status quo. This is especially true given how short staffed they are.
as you sit and go through rotations without fear of anything. Perma-bubble is all the control you need. This creates incredible demand for the lolset as that becomes the only way to be relevant outside DC or Pally. The OPness of the lolset only adds to the fact that if you're not a Pally or DC you "must" do max DPS, thus must use the lolset. Other mods I'm sure had different issues, but now all you need is DC OP GWF. All other classes are suboptimal because of:
1.) the lolset is OP/other sets being bad
2.) perma-bubble causing monotonous, "mandatory" party composition for the majority of players
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
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Valindra's belt gives 2 INT and 2 CHA, which is basically 800 power, 400 recovery and 800 crit, there's room for some power/crit sacrifice don't you think?
CHA also increases CA damage, which is not obtainable elsewhere.
Anyway : If following the tooltip, it should be 1,8/2,3k damage for each critical attack on a GWF, not 700k.
For those wanting the other sets to be buffed to be equal to Lol set, I think that would be around 100% control bonus on valindra set, which would be pretty fun.
I wish I was better versed at digging up the old forums, because it's the same argument, by quite a few of the same people, that always happens anytime this got brought up. People start whinging about 'striker/controller' this and '4th edition dnd roles' that to distract from the simple fact that the Lostmauth Set is brokenly unbalanced. If you don't think so, I'm not going to try to change your mind. But this shouldn't be surprising to anyone, least of all the devs, and we've asked and asked and asked them for an official stance and the only official word is that it is "working as intended". Despite being almost the exact same mechanic as the nerfed Stormspell, which wasn't working as intended, that's what we've got.
So for now, I use it, like nearly everyone else. But I won't shed a tear for my invested RP if they ever fix it, and people who believe somehow that because they have dumped time and effort into it means it shouldn't be nerfed should stop playing MMO's. That's how they work, sorry folks. Anyway, cynical rant over!
1) I don't think they're ever going to do anything about. It is way past that if nothing else. Just like I mentioned in my previous post, there is just no incentive from their perspective. To think that a few biased posts here is going to the get their attention is just wishful.
2) If they did, I wouldn't mind. Hopefully, it means they are getting back to putting effort in the game play aspects, including fixing numerous major imbalances.
3) And it's just undeniable if you are being objective. I'd rather be truthful than sound like someone who would say anything to get what he wants.
You can complete dungeons with or without lostmauth set. The former will be a little faster maybe, but you have unlimited time, so time isn't really a factor. You can beat most of dungeons with 2-2,5 IL, if you know what to do and have the necessary party composition.
But think about Epic Demogorgon and Tiamat. Time factor is important, without high enough dps, you can't win 3x gold. True, it's not necessary for winning the +5 rings or twisted weapons (both drop randomly), but still everybody wants gold for 2x ichors. But without dps, you can't even win silver, or bronze. (Yes, you can, if everybody know what to do, but even 1 person is enough, who targets black, or one gwf who runs ahead in phase 3 and locks demo in a bad position etc.)
You can easily complete E.demo with a custom channel party or guild party. But try to do it with random queue. In most cases you can't win 3x gold. There are people there, that (even with 2500) IL not prepared for endgame. I see a lot of people (dps) there with 20% or so armorpen, or support classes who does not use the correct powers. You can argue, that these chars should not be allowed to even enter (like arguments when Tiamat came out), but it won't change, because devs will not lock out most of the population from the new content. At current stage, high IL people can still carry a few of them in an edemo fight.
So, to the point:
Lostmauth set counts as 15-30% of total damage, even more important, it brings much higher dps, which is important because of the time limit. With the Lostmauth set OverPowered as it is (no argument about that), queues still fail in a big percentage, (even channel parties sometimes, made of 3k+ IL, but not dps builds). Without it, random queues would be simply doomed. (think about how many times you win or lose in a 5 seconds difference! - even with premade)
And nerfing lostmauth would make the game even more elitist. People not only would want 3,5k+ members in party, but also maybe only pve specced high dps members etc. This can't be solved simply by shouting at people to learn to play before enter edemo, or make themselves 3k etc. (Just think about, how many times people swear, when someboy opens green portals or can't hit yellow).
Current endgame (Demogorgon) is a dps race. Even with yellow-black mechanism, and all other new mechanisms. It would change, if people could queue in 10 char parties (I know you can sync), and could follow everybodies contribution, and give advices. But with current player mentality, (people frustrated if one stage is not gold, shouting when people hitting black) it won't happen.
I would not be against nerfing lostmauth set, (and if we are already there, they should change every damage, that comes passively, like CW storm spell etc to active damage. Maybe some kind of combo system/ or whatever, just increase encounter damage). But a nerf alone without some adjustment to class dps would hurt more than help . Yes, GWF, SW and HR would be maybe much closer in the terms of damage and dps. But failed demos and tiamats would be also more common.
But, I still think, that lostmauth is not the biggest problem in game, like a lot of people cries. Some of the current meta is completely wrong. In latest mods dungeons became a walkover (before mod 6), so people not only expected to complete them (which in mod 1-2 were already a succes), but to complete them fast. So when mod 6 came out with unbeatable t2 dungeons, people cried about game being too hard. So they still cry when demogorgon is not gold.
I think we need hard dungeons, but not introduced like demogorgon. It's a MOD8 main feature, devs would be stupid to lock out paying customers from it. We need T3 dungeons with correct rewards (come on, protector seals are joke!), that worth grinding for. And not as MOD9 feature, but some ongoing add-on, so people would not feel completely excluded from a mod.
1)it should not crit.
2)it should only be boosted by power and external debuffs and not personal feats.
im actually ok with the set but is one of the main causes for gwfs to be so ridicolously overpowered. If this is the price to make other strikers a little bit more relevant, just nerf it.
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
And by nerf, I mean for it to do what is written on the tooltip.
Seems like a valid reason, yep.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
There have been threads calling for a fix (not even a nerf, just the mechanic behaving the way it is theoretically supposed to) since the day it came out. When the devs fixed Storm Spell (almost the exactly same mechanic, with the only difference being it was a free class mechanic instead of something you had to invest something in) and left the Lostmauth bonus in, there were threads upon threads asking why. This isn't anything new, nor is it just that now the few people who were able to afford it back in the day are now seeing the 'unwashed masses' catching up.
Is it the largest issue facing Neverwinter? Not by a long shot. Is it symptomatic of one of the (to me) scariest issues with the game? Damn straight it is. There is no reason for this set to have gone unchanged for as long as it has, and it's terrifying that the devs find it completely fine to put out something that so blatantly changes the power curve and let it remain unbalanced for so long.
The absolutely worst part is that had they done something about it back when it first was being discussed, they'd have made a few people unhappy - you always will balancing anything. But now that they've let it proliferate, they're going to have huge swathes of players screaming bloody murder if they fix it. Should never have gotten to this point in the first place, but just biting the bullet and making the change (like what they did with the economy) is still the better solution. Hopefully someone upstairs realizes that. I'll remain hopeful even while tempering expectations.
Obviously some class changes and path-specific changes must be done too. But just normalizing eLoL set would make a difference.
Plus, for example, if you pay attention i posted many times about changes to normalize GWFs.
The big difference between me and you is that my changes are a mix of tone down of some aspects and buff of others, while your suggestions (and those of many others) are just a brainless "pleaaaaseeee neeeerffff GWF damageeeeeeeeeee".
I'm also very nice because i do not insult the trolls. I just point out all the nonsense they write.
I think my first post about eLoL set possible fixes and interactions is a few months old. And at the time i got replies saying that i "just wanted it nerfed cuz i didn't have it". And that i obviously needed to "L2P".
Now i wrote the exact same things and the next genius pops up saying i finally acknowledged the very same things.
I can't be more polite than this with this kind of users.