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Equalized pvp?

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  • dragoness10dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    I get horribly screaming in frustration Dev twitchy when I read about "equalizing PvP".

    On the one hand you want to be able to earn (or in game buy) your gear and weapons that get progressively better the more effort you put into PvP. For accomplishments you get certain rewards (boons in this case) the more you PvP. This raises your stats, and practice raises your skills.

    "I want PvP Balance, and everyone I fight to be my exact equal so it's ~fair~ in PvP."

    For that you need to TAKE AWAY all that earned gear and boons, and then assign everyone a base set of gear with no boons (or all boons) active. You have to take out all the accomplishments, boons, Stronghold rewards, special gear, little trinkets (like Pocket Pet), and anything else that doesn't fit inside that set parameter of what you are allowed. This would purely rely on skills, and how good your internet connection is for a "win".

    "You're insane. You're ****ing insane. I want everything I earned, but they need have it equalized to what I have."

    Considering everyone may do a different build, have a bit different gear, and even has a different PvP style this makes it far more complex.

    The only true "win" and "balance" in PvP is when everyone agrees to have fun, and nobody rages about others defeating them or other team mates "shortcomings".

    Then again, some Ancient Dragons have advised me I can expect too much logic from humans on occasion. I should just let it be.
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

    "Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."

    "Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    The real issues PvP is suffering from are the exploiters, who abused various bugs / glitches, etc. in the past. They abused leadership armies, the astral resonator bug, CN boss 1 shotting, negative AH bidding, the Nightmare lockbox bug, botted in foundry missions and the likes. I took a long break from NW, because i thought by the time i come back, the devs will have dealt with the exploiters. But to my surprise this isn't the case. They are still ruining PvP, happily bragging about not getting banned and i am certain that they will abuse each and every glitch that's going to arise in the future, aswell. Some of them act as if they didn't abuse any bugs, which is a blatant lie / hypocrisy.

    Take away the various bugs that got exploited in the past and we would not have to face hundreds of BiS geared toons. But since we cannot change the past, the next best and intelligent solution would be to bann all those who got their items from criminal activities. Unless this happens, PvP will be dead.

  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User

    The real issues PvP is suffering from are the exploiters, who abused various bugs / glitches, etc. in the past. They abused leadership armies, the astral resonator bug, CN boss 1 shotting, negative AH bidding, the Nightmare lockbox bug, botted in foundry missions and the likes. I took a long break from NW, because i thought by the time i come back, the devs will have dealt with the exploiters. But to my surprise this isn't the case. They are still ruining PvP, happily bragging about not getting banned and i am certain that they will abuse each and every glitch that's going to arise in the future, aswell. Some of them act as if they didn't abuse any bugs, which is a blatant lie / hypocrisy.

    Take away the various bugs that got exploited in the past and we would not have to face hundreds of BiS geared toons. But since we cannot change the past, the next best and intelligent solution would be to bann all those who got their items from criminal activities. Unless this happens, PvP will be dead.

    Yep... and it makes people like me sick to the stomach watching some of them act as if they were some kind of respectable, cool, laidback "veterans" in certain parts of the forums, when in fact, they are actually the perpetrators behind PvP becoming thus miserable.

    Like I said many times, they don't really care. The devs don't care, obviously, and the abusers and exploiters don't care as well. Hey, the game fails and servers close up? They simply move to some other game and do the same chi*.

    I don't see any reversals to the current trend coming. NW is going the way of CO and its PvP.

    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    Well, correct me if i'm wrong, but if PvP gets and "equalized" version, where all the players who enter are automatically balanced with:

    Greater armor and weapon enchants
    Rank 8 enchants
    Epic artifacts
    Epic artifact equipment

    of the enchants and stuff they have, doesn't this "erase" the advantage these exploiters got (gear)?
    What is left after that is to balance the overperforming enchants and gear sets, and there you go.
    Also force solo queue in PUG PvP, leaving a mode for premades.

    Now all the exploiters, pugstompers and the likes, will not be able to use their maxed gear advantage, or form pugstomping premades.
    They will be "equalized" and sent out their like the rest of us, in random teams for a fair PUG PvP experience.

    In the "premade", "unequalized" PvP, instead, players will be able to go in with preformed groups if they want, using their "unequalized" gear.

    And builds and skill would make the difference in PvP.
    But what would happen? What would happen is:

    1) the army of what some "sh*thead" calls "cows" aka "normal players farming daily RAD" would migrate to the equalized PvP, leaving the "unequalized" pugstompers rotting in the "unequalized" version, facing each others, with no more "cows" to kill for free. Also, some players who usually avoid PvP for the lack of balance might actually start PvPing in thos more fair environment, increasing the PvP population.
    2) overperforming stuff would not always work (example: T.Fey "equalized" to a G.Fey and there you go), mitigating some issues even without an enchant/ gear rebalance
    3) the army of undergeared newcomers or alts would not fight in a 2k vs 4k scenario but will have, at least, equalized gear
    4) the exploiters would lose their gear advantage they "achieved" through exploits.

    Would solve ALL the issues? May be not, but would improve things 1000 times. Including the "exploiters" issue you guys describe. Cause most, if not all the exploiters, do that to be "gods" in PvP. Not in PvE. So take away gear LEVEL (not build) in PvP, and you take away what they "exploited" for.

    For the good players who "seek" a good premade vs premade or "BiS" match, will make no difference, cause "BiS" players will be there in the "unequalized" version.
    Will punish, instead, exploiters and pugstomping powerplayers.

    Also:

    no companion bonus in equalized Domination/ GG (well, it's already like that, am i right?)
    no mount bonus (stat or AP gain) in equalized Domination/ GG (no more 4k free ArP or free 4k movement or free AP)

    On a side note, i am pretty sure if EVER the devs do this change to PvP and create an "equalized" version, some elitists would call it the "PUG PvP mode" in a disgusted tone.
  • fantasycharacterfantasycharacter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 675 Arc User
    Leaderboard also has to go. I have seen people throw games in order to keep their K/D ratio intact. One guy I saw absolutely ran into a corner the first 5 seconds of the match and i noticed there was absolutely two guys from his guild on the other team. So I asked why he just ran to the corner and did not even try, he said he was only worried about his K/D ratio.


    I was left scratching my head as his K/D ratio is ultimately very skewed as he throws matches in order for it to be like it is.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    i aggree, implementing an equalized PVP mode to the existing one would be nice
    everybody can decide if he wants to take part in that "cheating contest" or not
    I am tired running DOM , its stomping or getting stomed all time, no skill involved, only your class and gearscore decides and if you are member of a PVP guild that choses the right boons or not
    SH doesn´t exist any more btw. no queues
    I am pretty sure this would be a good solution, probabaly the only one

    --->because brackets will not solve aything
    meeting a maxed GWF 2,6 k GS, full lionsmane in DOM.....T negation, T feytouch, axebeak, SH boon, 135k HP, 20k power, 6k crit, 6k arp, 5k deflect, 5 k LS.....
    you only have to pick out your rank 12´es, poor player and poor game, K/D 20:1 against 3k+ dudes, balanced hmm?
  • subnoctesubnocte Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    I think the NCL rewards were an attempt to level the playing field a little bit by making it much easier for people to get (then) BiS PVP gear. It hasn't worked much though as basic PVP gear aside, it's all the BiS enchants, artifacts and legendary mounts that are killing the game. I suspect that NCL just showed the devs how broken PVP is. They've been practically silent on it since.

    Short of full on equalised PVP I think they could do a couple of things to help rescue things:

    1. Remove tenacity. Make all gear appropriate for PVP, with PVP gear just having different stats to PVE gear.
    2. Remove legendary mount stat bonuses in PVP. It's an obscene pay to win aspect with such ridiculous bonuses available for anyone with cash.
    3. Do something, anything, to improve matching. Simplest quick fix solution is only allow solo queuing -- or only allow solo queuing or full premade queuing and don't mix them ever.
  • xavior44xavior44 Member Posts: 153 Arc User
    agreed legenadary stat bonus from mounts should be PVE only give ur head a shake and stop trying to make money cryptic instead make a goodgame and the money will come
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User

    Leaderboard also has to go. I have seen people throw games in order to keep their K/D ratio intact. One guy I saw absolutely ran into a corner the first 5 seconds of the match and i noticed there was absolutely two guys from his guild on the other team. So I asked why he just ran to the corner and did not even try, he said he was only worried about his K/D ratio.


    I was left scratching my head as his K/D ratio is ultimately very skewed as he throws matches in order for it to be like it is.

    K/D ratio means NOTHING even if it's obtained in a regular way. It says very little about a player's skills, expecially since it's greatly influenced by the type of class and build. It can only give a player, in extreme cases, a hint (for example, if a fully geared player using a very conservative build like Sabo/MI semiperma TR, has a bad K/D ratio, it's not a good sign). Nothing more.

    But it says a lot about the "mentality" that the devs decided to associate with current PvP design.
    Which, basically, is: "jungle rules, the strong eats the weak, you must be BiS and selfish. If you're BiS and selfish we give you cookies in the form of ego-feeding leaderboard and a PvP design that allows you to trample on the army of average players aka 'PUGs' ".

    I'd say we need:

    - Equalized PvP to Greaters/rank8/epics for everyone who enters
    - Forced solo queue
    - Some enchant/gear rebalance
    - After that, add better rewards similar to what we got in NCL, with an improved glory shop where a player would purchase salvage items, rank 7's, exc...

    For example: running an underdark skirmish or HE, gives you a blue ring in the worst case, worth 3k RAD. If you get a purple, 6k RAD. If you run a dungeon, even a T1, you can get 3k daily RAD+3k-4k RAD from salvageable blue gear or more if you also get a drop from a boss+chest.
    If you run PvP you get 3kx2 daily RAD and very little glory reward. Only purple gear gives a good RAD income and for that you need multiple PvP games+daily victory token.
    Time/ reward for PvP is bad, and you need much better gear to have fun in PvP than in PvE.

    A victory in PvP should make the winners earn a blue 3k salvageable item (not the current HAMSTER blue stuff, useless), with a purple salvageable item for the top player of winning team. Losing team should still get glory, but not the current 150 glory reward.

    They don't do it because BOTs would then go farm PvP and ruin everything. They should add a method to prevent BOTs from going PvP, and improve the rewards.
    For example: isn't it possible to add a "confirmation code" when a player enters the queue? So you need to READ it and write it down to confirm you're not a BOT,
  • kanadian123kanadian123 Member Posts: 3 Arc User

    - Equalized PvP to Greaters/rank8/epics for everyone who enters
    - Forced solo queue
    - Some enchant/gear rebalance

    Keep dreaming guys, this is not a pvp game they proved it more then once, its a p2win game meant to stomp people so they go p2w new gear and get re-stomped!




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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User


    - Equalized PvP to Greaters/rank8/epics for everyone who enters
    - Forced solo queue
    - Some enchant/gear rebalance

    Keep dreaming guys, this is not a pvp game they proved it more then once, its a p2win game meant to stomp people so they go p2w new gear and get re-stomped!




    problem is...there is nearly no PVP any more
    tried SH PVP several times in the past, queues last forever
    tried Dom several times in the past, pops up fast but allways the same player you meat so doing 5 Doms in a row means you play side by side with this 4k+ cookie cutter build or against it, stomp or get stomped all time, and the participants who queue same time as you do are a handfull of people
    imo there is nothing to lose because its all lost

    brackets doesn´t work as well as I wrote, quoting myself: --->>>> a MAXED GWF with 2,6 k GS, full lionsmane in DOM.....T negation, T feytouch, axebeak, SH boon, 135k HP, 20k power, 6k crit, 6k arp, 5k deflect, 5 k LS.....no problem you only have to pick out your rank 12´es
    and as far as I can tell from what I see, thats exactly what the average "Neverwinter-PVP-pseudopro -player" will do
    strip all rank 12´s downgrade equip and go on stomping, thats what these player log in for .... go neverwinter and stomp undergeared player
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  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User

    The real issues PvP is suffering from are the exploiters, who abused various bugs / glitches, etc. in the past. They abused leadership armies, the astral resonator bug, CN boss 1 shotting, negative AH bidding, the Nightmare lockbox bug, botted in foundry missions and the likes. I took a long break from NW, because i thought by the time i come back, the devs will have dealt with the exploiters. But to my surprise this isn't the case. They are still ruining PvP, happily bragging about not getting banned and i am certain that they will abuse each and every glitch that's going to arise in the future, aswell. Some of them act as if they didn't abuse any bugs, which is a blatant lie / hypocrisy.

    Take away the various bugs that got exploited in the past and we would not have to face hundreds of BiS geared toons. But since we cannot change the past, the next best and intelligent solution would be to bann all those who got their items from criminal activities. Unless this happens, PvP will be dead.

    This!

    &
    kweassa said:

    Yep... and it makes people like me sick to the stomach watching some of them act as if they were some kind of respectable, cool, laidback "veterans" in certain parts of the forums, when in fact, they are actually the perpetrators behind PvP becoming thus miserable.

    Like I said many times, they don't really care. The devs don't care, obviously, and the abusers and exploiters don't care as well. Hey, the game fails and servers close up? They simply move to some other game and do the same chi*.

    I don't see any reversals to the current trend coming. NW is going the way of CO and its PvP.

    This!

    You know guys it is still good to see some people using their brains!

    If i may add my 2 cents, why PVP likely never will be a decent playground (God i wish i would be proved wrong this time, i do really wish!)

    I hearby would say, this isn't meant to be offensive towards any member of the game staff, just reality, but i keep things clean, won't mention anybody's name!

    I wanted to start a new thread about cheating/exploiting/bug abusing in PVP and the 100% absence of Customer Support, but i think i might share my thoughts as a response to your posts guys.

    What i have accumulated as knowledge about this game in the past years:

    1. Customer Support was never ever mildly spoken even close to being functional or good. In the business world, outside of IT's small travelling circus the performance of CS wouldn't have stand a chance for 1 day, it is simply put so bad. Whenever i reported a high profile cheater, i always got an automated answer about privacy, no shame and investigations, which turned out as either non existent or not functional, cause all these high ranking individuals in the community are still here, non was ever banned. My last two reports went totally unnoticed, no response since weeks.

    2. I sent some data to other game staff too, sadly as it turned out most of these persons, never played a single PVP match in their own game and they couldn't even understand what the heck i wrote, not even with attached screenshots, logs and pictures about hidden chats. My advise would be as company co-leader, who doesn't get angry, if he has to stay behind a CNC machine or has to make his hands dirty, EDUCATION. It is rather funny and odd at the same time, that game staff doesn't understand simply game terminus technicus, like ITC for example.

    3. Now here comes the Catch 22 situation.

    They won't ban those big time exploiters and and i don't expect CS to respond to me anytime soon, cause these cheaters are so prominent in this game, that the game would suffer even more in short term with the kick of these individuals or their guilds. Yeah sadly it some cases even guilds would have to be closed, cause the exploits run deeper, than the rabbit hole.

    Some of these are highly praised by little players, who don't know their background and are followed like living gods. Management surely thinks, let just close one or two eyes, they bring many small folks to the game.

    Some of the exploiters are in RL journalist or streamers, who are closely affiliated so let them and/or their guilds cheat the roof down in PVP.

    Some are used as advertisement guys or girls for teens, so of course one eye shut down again.


    What Cryptic sadly doesn't want to understand, is the fact, that the cons of these cheaters and/or their guilds, who are allowed to troll PVP battlegrounds freely outweigh the pros, in this case the PR success of letting them lurk here. A huge consequence of this faulty logic is currently a nearly dead PVP , cause most average Joes, who spend a month or two here get their noses full by the constant PUGstumping, the broken balance or the trolling by the "elite" here.

    Coming back to my point about CS, last time i have reported one of the biggest guilds biggest person from PVP for using illegal methods in GG PVP and the breaking of ToS by a mile. Now i would bet my entire earnings on it, that it was either discarded on the spot or after heavy discussion thrown to the virtual dust bin, cause hey, if we kick this well known guy, it will shake the foundations of the game, but at least PVP's.

    RL example, everybody, who has studied at a law or similar school, knows the fact, why governments become corrupted over time, they will never take the necessary actions against corrupt people, cause they count on their payments and their support at the ballets.

    PVP is the same here, as long as some of these wallet warriors pay big bucks, they can cheat and the officials have one or two eyes closed.

    Thank you!
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
    Robert E. Lee

    I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
    Winston Churchill

    The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
    David Icke

  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    Then again, using our brains we should understand as much:

    players bot or cheat to get up to max gear and have easy wins over regular players. If you "normalize" PvP, making all the gear temporary at the same level, you eradicate the problem cause then all that gear, earned through illegal methods, is useless.
    When all the legendary artifact equipment, mythic artifacts, rank 12 and trascendent enchants, are "equalized" and all players get the same level of enchants and gear, the botters and exploiters who earned hundred of milions of ADs to buy their maxed gear, lose that advantage.

    Solves everything? No.
    But if things are as you say and the devs just allow cheaters to cheat, it's the only thing that can be reasonably done to improve PvP.

    Along with forced solo queue and a separate PvP for premades/ unequalized gear.
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  • godsblade#8271 godsblade Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    You don't have to "equalize" PvP for it to be fun. You simply need bracketing and proper matchmaking. By matchmaking, I mean that not only does the system appropriately bracket players, it also appropriately places them on teams.

    Yup Yup Yup

    Rolen
  • urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,084 Arc User
    If you just separate the queues... one for premades one for singles

    This will fi the majority of issues.

    On a different note,

    Play the game and gear will come
  • fastrean3fastrean3 Member Posts: 281 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    Not to include all those broken stuffs nd exploit ppl. i don't think it will occur in this game...unequalized pvp is the main infinity black hole to make player spend their money/time to become bis gear as they can. Thats the main $ method for them or F2P style.

    Easy pve hard pvp, competing between player always more fun.

    Do you really need bis in pve? No

    But if the game run like Hard pve and easy pvp to make the bis gear less effect on pvp? U need bis to do the extremely hard pve to earn pvp stuff or unlock new pvp map?

    it will still be unbalance at the end....impossible to balance in F2P style operation mod.
  • melodiezxxmelodiezxx Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    Why would they "equalize" pvp and give everyone rank 8s this will never happen simply because pvp is like endgame content Atleast that's the way I see it, you start out fresh not knowing nothing about the game so you start with pve if you like the PVE then your gonna continue playing so you run all the doungens all the skirmishes all the events they put in every once in a while after time your gonna start getting bored of pve and then pvp comes in, ofcourse your gonna be a scrub at the start but practice makes perfect so you start working on improving your gear for pvp since you already done everything for pve, you start working on your build on your boons you start to see improvement and after that you just want more power and that's when you start grinding end game content to be up there in pvp I mean what's the point of pve if you can't take everything you worked for and use it against somebody else
  • melodiezxxmelodiezxx Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    What's the point of getting rank 12s or upgrading your gear if your only gonna be able to use it in pve and for what to get the most dps in a run? Lame... Pve is a walk threw the park with just rank 7s
  • vexlander#5500 vexlander Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Everyone having the same exact class and build and gear would equalize PvP, there's always going to be something unequal in PvP, the devs just have to continue to progress in making adjustments to read a more perfect PvP.
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  • kievitzkievitz Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 260 Arc User
    What does balancing mean in pvp? Well in my books balnced PVP means: You will fight against people with similar ranked gear, with your own choice of toon (of course :)) and have the OPTION to challenge harder ranked player partys or for a high rank party to ask lower geared party if they want a harder opponent. Its a start if nothing else. What comes to class balance it should be made so that not every class can beat every class. If ya want the kind of balance some people talk like making everybody have the same power level skills and feats please and pardon but the you are in the wrong kind of game setting, the balance should be that you cant kill every single class of the bat. if ya play a certain class it has advantages against some classes and disadvantages against others. That would be fine IMO so people would have to play and think who to kill and not just blindly attack everything that moves and to learn your arcenemys combat skills, of course there are some classes that have a wider spread of advantages but they should not be able to dominate all classes with them, like one class would be average against all, then there will be classes that are way better agains a few classes and so on, depending on your features, of course wizard should be able to wield aoe against multiple foes with average results whence a GWF would be much? better in 1 on 1. does this make any sense or is this total BS? question to you who have seen more PVP than i have.
  • kropek1991kropek1991 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited December 2015
    To many things went too far in this game for pvp to be equalized.

    Devs can't even make properly working ranking...and where is balance etc...
    Thats my opinion...
  • korden1korden1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 61 Arc User
    kievitz said:

    What does balancing mean in pvp? Well in my books balnced PVP means: You will fight against people with similar ranked gear, with your own choice of toon (of course :)) and have the OPTION to challenge harder ranked player partys or for a high rank party to ask lower geared party if they want a harder opponent. Its a start if nothing else. What comes to class balance it should be made so that not every class can beat every class. If ya want the kind of balance some people talk like making everybody have the same power level skills and feats please and pardon but the you are in the wrong kind of game setting, the balance should be that you cant kill every single class of the bat. if ya play a certain class it has advantages against some classes and disadvantages against others. That would be fine IMO so people would have to play and think who to kill and not just blindly attack everything that moves and to learn your arcenemys combat skills, of course there are some classes that have a wider spread of advantages but they should not be able to dominate all classes with them, like one class would be average against all, then there will be classes that are way better agains a few classes and so on, depending on your features, of course wizard should be able to wield aoe against multiple foes with average results whence a GWF would be much? better in 1 on 1. does this make any sense or is this total BS? question to you who have seen more PVP than i have.

    That is almost a dream. Even further, i guess that the huge grinding required in nwn must be impossible for new players incoming - that is a barrier, who is making player reducing more and more.
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