Nah. Like you've mentioned, the "runner" thing was like since, forever. It's just that nobody bothered to actually make a thread about it until now.
In other words, everyone hated the runners since forever as well
Yeah but don't you think it's getting a bit ridiculous? Leaving out how hypocritical it is when a semi-perma, MI/Sabo complains about GWFs being able to get away easily using battlefury (happens), or how players still complained about battlefury at the beginning of module 4 when GWFs were overnerfed, with the exception of BiS geared intimidation builds (1% of GWF population could use that build, the rest was useless), while at the same time making fun of GWFs cause they could "only run" after the massive overnerf. People has been complaining about battlefury builds since module 4, when GWFs were in such a sorry state after the overnerf that those who could not exploit the intimidation BiS builds, were trying the "runner" path. And even then, players complained that GWFs could run too much, even if, and you should remember it well, anything out of the BiS intimidation builds, was very weak compared to other classes. Now, battlefury builds give up one offensive encounter and lose some burst to get strategic advantage and the ability to faster reposition themselves. Compared to stationary builds they lose either points in executioner's style or focused destroyer= DPS loss, and lose either daring shout mark or another offensive encounter. So it's not like the build doesn't come with downsides. You increase something, you lose something else.
But no. Don't like if GWFs can run too much either, so please, nerf. As if other classes didn't have specific builds that max-out a specific aspect of the class. So now we have, all together, players complaining about:
GWF deals too much damage when fully buffed GWF self-heals too much/ survives too much GWF can run too much
Obviously, with specific, overperforming gear, no less. But this is not important. Must be the class.
which completely ignores the fact that point #2 comes mainly from T.Fey-T.Neg interaction with class mechanics at BiS levels, cause those ENCHANTS are overbuffed, and NOT from own class survivability. But then players say "yes, GWFs without T.Fey and T.Neg (nothing less) are not hard to kill. So...yeah..the problem is not the enchants but the class. Nerf the class." Auto-contraddicting themselves, so blatantly HAMSTER i am speechless. point #3 is a specific build that comes with good sides and bad sides
So with this scenario and the noobish, indiscriminate complaints about every aspect of the class that might create problems, the devs would most likely nerf all at once, similar to module 4 overnerf. Which, apparently, didn't teach players anything.
For example, that just toning down the full-buff damage and raising a bit the class base damage would overall not just balance DPS, but also decrease survivability cause it would nerf the determination gain when in buffed state by a lot= less unstoppable=less temp HP shield. Also, balancing DPS would make it even more clear how battlefury builds lose burst to gain mobility.
But no, let players like feanor post some hysterical complaint about GWF, open another thread to complain, may be, about how BiS GWFs can self heal and deal too much damage, and nerf all at once damage, unstoppable (again) and battlefury (lol).
I already know how the non-GWF playerbase usually sees GWF balance. Like this guy at the start of module 4. After a discussion about how GWF were overnerfed, he said something like "oh well, i don't care. It's our turn now. Get wrecked".
Which is not even the case now cause GWFs are not PvP top dogs, with GFs, TRs, OPs, tank DCs easily countering them or stalling them.
When i discuss other classes i always balance changes to the broken mechanics with buffs to something else. Cause i try to understand what can be done to eliminate bad mechanics in favor of strong, but more balanced ones. Example: reworking of piercing damage or HR permaroot while buffing damage/survivability coming from other powers, to have a still strong class, but with more balanced mechanics. Looks like other players instead, just want my main class nerfed to the ground again in a module 4-style, with complaints about every single tool, be it damage, survivability or mobility. Not even taking the time to understand what comes from the class, what comes from the overperforming interactions with BiS gear of BiS builds. You guys never learn. Keep going for the "complain about everything at once" approach. Just like players do with TRs.
And when you try to explain and discuss, you are suddenly "playing the victim". Funny. While i can understand the complaints about the damage, i think that jumping on battlefury builds too is very, very lame. Expecially considering how players keep ignoring the fact that only at BiS gear with T.Fey and T.Neg, the GWF makes the "jump" and becomes so powerful. I can't re-explain things again and again. Players never learn.
One of the reason for Runner build is "that annoying Repel from cw!",
1. So tell me why Repel can Ignore Unstoppable? isn't it a CC skill, 2. Why can Repel stack to other Repel's ?? (seriously this is just stupid, 2CW's and you fly like a ping-pong)
So next, You always forget, "when you say something about GWF"
GWF -> "with"," and", "plus", "When", "have", " Only"," Are" etc... so what i mean with this:
The GWF class have "to Have" always "at first" to be someone. (gwf is extrem gear based class, if you don't have the right items or none of them you'r simple no one, an easy kill for everyone)
An example you say " GWF is OP with t.neg" What's about the GWF's whitout those items??
Nothing because they are Paper an easy target for everyone, "The GWF class alone are Weak", it cannot stand alone for their own, like other classes-
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
They should be fighting other ungeared, probably poorly built characters as well.
I hear this a lot. Which, basically means "use the overperforming stuff or you're a 'bad player' "
Now, my GWF has a good build that is basically created also using feedback given by talking with the experienced BiS GWFs i meet sometimes. It can tank some and i even could beat 1v1 another GWF in the 3k range, with him using T.Fey-T.Neg-eLoL, vs my T.Terror-G.SF-Lathander set. But still, the gap between soulforged and negation is huge. Simply because T.Neg>>>> any other enchant. If i'm not mistaken, to "cancel" negation you need 3k ArP, that with a 70% ArP resist from tenacity means 10k ArP stat. Which equals to an axebeak mount and at least a SH boon at 5k ArP (assuming you try to get free ArP from these sources).
Being "ungeared" or "bald built" means you don't have T.Fey-T.Neg-eLoL-axebeak.
Now, some classes have no specific gear requirement to perform well. Obviously any class in a BiS premade needs the best stuff, but a GF, OP, DC, CW exc...still performs well with other enchants. You meet here and there geared (3.5k iLvL range) PvP toons from other classes using elven battle, vorpal, terror, and they still can perform well. Example:a GF with vorpal or terror can still fight, cause his survivability comes from shield, his burst from base damage buffed in module 6, while a GWF without T.Fey is considered a bad GWF and usually is also quite underperforming. A DC tank with elven battle can still fight. Cause his survivability comes from powers, enhanced by elven or negation, they still are strong. GWFs NEED that specific combo or is weak. I compensated that partially on my GWF, but even so, the difference is often clear. A TR with my enchant choice, a MI/Sabo, would still be powerful. A GWF wouldn't.
Doesn't this ring a bell about what comes from the class, and what comes from other stuff? Same as with old intimidation builds. Players were asking for all kind of nerfs other than intimidation itself, cause "GWFs are too strong, oneshotting everyone". Yeah, only the 20k+ ones (old gear score).
Now i see the same. Thread over thread. "GWFs deal too much damage, self heal too much, run too much". I say this:
Balance T.Fey Balance .Neg with other enchants Balance eLoL
cause this combo is EXPECIALLY good for GWFs (best sinergy)
After that, re-check the class. Still too powerful? Ok. Considerations:
- GWF buffed status deals too much damage - same damage is achieved by GFs, who have the upper hand vs GWFs usually. Same for TRs, and OPs/DCs can stall them too - base GWF damage is too low - a needed nerf to buffed status overall damage impacts also survivability: less life steal, slower determination gain from capstone (base determination gain is slow, it gets noticeable only in buffed status) and less temp HP from unstoppable (scale with damage buffs). - with lower buffed damage, battlefury builds lose, even more clearly, burst potential, which again already makes the build very specific and far from being in need of any kind of nerf, just because some players hate when the enemy can "run away" (loses "stationary" potential/ damage, gains the ability to freely engage/ disengage).
So, you balance the class already by:
- decreasing fully buffed damage by some degree (say 30%? Needs test) - increasing base damage by, say, 10%
Loses fully buffed sustained damage 20% total, makes the class less reliant on self-buffs (a bit more powerful at the start of the fight, less of a monster once in fully buffed status). Loses survivability due to less lifesteal amount and slower unstoppable with also less temp HP (that scale with damage buffs). How many players consider the fact that the (needed) nerf to self-buffs, also decreases GWF survivability by a good amount? Very few, i'd say. Also, other considerations: GFs would gain a consistent, larger advantage over an equally geared GWF since they already burst as high as a fully buffed GWF when correctly built, and can tank with shield. Piercing TRs would have aneven easier time. OP/DCs would gain an advantage.
Cause, as said, GWF is NOT the top dog. It's countered well by multiple classes and builds. So, if you tone down GWFs to balance them with CWs and SWs, you must also tone down other classes by some.
Also, if we want to get rid of every unbalanced mechanic we must:
- rework piercing damage and give TRs more DPS on other powers with a proper mechanic - rework permarooting HR, giving them more survivability to compensate the loss of their perma CC/ interrupt - tone down GF monster burst
Right now, we have some kind of "rock-paper-scissors" system. GF beats GWF, HR beats GF (i hear that), TR beats GWF, HR can beat TR, GWF beats HR, and so on... If you want all classes to match each others, you must balance all of them, not just one. At least the "top ones" (TR,OP,DC,GWF,GF,HR permarooter). Then see how SW and CW (the weakest ones right now?) perform after the rebalance.
Leeroy knows me clonky I find it useful cause may be sometimes i am wrong and discussing an issue with someone else helps me learn something. And sometimes if i am right, may be someone understands what i try to say. Not everyone, obviously. But if i can help even 1 single player, it's worth it.
Nothing hypocritical about it. People dislike "omnipotent" (so to speak) classes in PvP. So regardless of the "validity/legitimacy" of their mechanics (as in 'op or not'), such classes will be subject to countless accusations and scrutiny from others, and frankly speaking, serves them right.
At least, looking back on the level of utility or importance us TRs or you GWFs had in PvP, we've got nothing to excuse ourselves to. Every major or influential or cocky jackarse or psychopath or whatever in this PvP community is either a GWF main or a TR main. It may not sound like its relevant, but in reality, which classes the most 'famous' people play as their main actually has a long history as a method of identifying which class holds absolute dominance -- and like mentioned, this isn't about individual performance/skill of a class/player, but rather the "big picture" the entire class paints out in terms of PvP.
In that aspect, like it or not, the classes that represent PvP in this game are GWFs and TRs. Both of our classes, frankly speaking, need a long line of nerfs by either way of tweaking the class itself, or changing the PvP environment as a whole, so that our general efficiency and influence is reduced and other classes and builds are considered just as much viable option for PvP.
Just look at the number of you GWF players complaining about us TRs, who are the only class currently in game that has a power that directly counters this whole sprinting ordeal. I don't think we're in a position to complain about other class/players complaining about us, because we're just as guilty as any one of them.
Besides, what does it matter? The devs stopped caring about PvP a long time ago, and nothing's gonna change. No amount of our discussions will ever get their notice. All of this talk is relevant only when the guys making this game intend to listen. They don't, so golly shi*, they can go f**k the game balance all they want. Not a single cent's coming out of me anymore.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Mmmmh... to be honest i think that it's not really as you say. Let me explain. Module 2 and 3 GWFs were dominant. Before that, they were so weak that people made fun of them. Remember? Then the regeneration builds surfaced and PvP GWFs became the back-cappers of choice in premades (if i'm not mistaken). Module 4, the class was far from "omnipotent". If you look around, BiS intimidation builds were one-rotating enemies, but also going down very, very fast with CWs old SS uberprocs, TRs increased damage and still top survivability, and new shiny DPS DC killing them very fast. Remember a video of Sobek, with him getting to mid node and dying in about 2.5s from 2 CWs crossfire. And anything under the BiS intimidation builds was FAR from omnipotent. Module 5 even less with intimidation tone-down. Now after module 6, what we have is something different. Basically, again GWF gets to shine with specific BiS gear, nothing less. Is it omnipotent? It sure is at the top but, as i said, considering a BiS GWF:
One-rotating, BiS GFs counter them perfectly BiS TRs counter them perfectly with MI-Sabo builds BiS OP stall them no problem. Well, BiS OPs just don't die and are probably at the top right now. BiS DC tank stall them no problem
If you notice, i never "complain about another class". I discuss mechanics. And how to make overall changes to make MECHANICS more balanced. For example, when i discussed TRs in some topic i talked about a piercing damage rework/ removal but, at the same time, buffs to damage from other powers that might balance the piercing damage rework, giving also, may be, more possibilities to TRs.
Yesterday i came across a BiS GWF that just would not die and one-rotate me. I think it's no different from a BiS tank GF who can one-rotate me, an OP who can tank 10 enemies, a TR hitting through everything and so on. It's the result of bad design, interactions and mechanics. A GF cannot self-heal as much as a GWF (they hit way less), but in a 1v1 scenario is a perfect counter. I'm pretty sure a BiS GF would one-rotate the BiS GWF i met, and just tank him with shield. An OP bubbledin would tank him. My team won in fact, cause our OP bubbledin was probably better than theirs. They also got a BiS geared CW, very foul mouthed (talking about cocky classes), but he was not as powerful as the GWF. Still powerful, but not that much. Now i can look at that and think that CW is not balanced if compared to a GWF, and that GWFs are ahead in PvP, right now. So, however, 4k+ CW and 4k+ "omnipotent" GWF with bubbledin in team, were still countered by a team far from BiS. So not really omnipotent, cause you have other classes that can counter them. same with TR. Have you seen the video of a certain BiS TR vs a BiS HR? The HR permarooter out-healed the TR and won.
So if you give TRs a "long line of nerfs", what happens then to that TRvsHR trapper? If you give a "long line of nerfs" to GWFs, what happens when they meet a GF, OP, DC?
Popular classes rotate. In module 4 it was TR and CW. Still same in module 5. And you met a ton of sh*thead CWs and TRs. Few GWFs cause only BiS ones were viable. Module 2-3 GWFs were everywhere, and you could meet a ton of GWF HAMSTER, while TRs were more rare and usually permatroll builds that couldn't really kill much. So less "cocky" TRs. Reason? HAMSTER are usually powerplayers switching from 1 FOTM DPS class to another, to "stomp" enemies. You don't see FOTM powerplayers going to a tank class. They want to kill. So, right now they go GWF and TR cause well, these classes kill better and are overall more complete (GF can one-rotate better than GWF, cause they don't need stacks, but in a group fight he dies faster due to less life-steal, usually). If, next module, CWs will be back to some monster one-rotating DPS rework, and GWFs/TRs get nerfed, you'll see more "cocky" CWs.
So it's not really a matter of one specific class. More like "cocky" players usually swarm the FOTModule DPS class. Balance the mechanics and gear once and for all, and those "cocky" players will migrate to another game where they can stomp enemies exploiting some overpowered sh*t. Right now, NW is the best place to do that, so they are all here. :shrugs:
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
GWF actually has a hidden class feature called Taunt.
Taunt effect: Whack a player and tease them "lol you can never kill me " and just run around, next thing you will find is the whole enemy team is running behind ya trying to kill ya while your teammate just happily 2~3 cap the field with ease
Effective: Against players with IQ less than 90, and it works miraclely well
GWF actually has a hidden class feature called Taunt.
Taunt effect: Whack a player and tease them "lol you can never kill me " and just run around, next thing you will find is the whole enemy team is running behind ya trying to kill ya while your teammate just happily 2~3 cap the field with ease
Effective: Against players with IQ less than 90, and it works miraclely well
I used to effectively draw players this with my TR, but I would get half or less health and 'limp' away (but always manage to stay mostly out of range). I called it the "Killdeer strategy". I never considered this with my GWF as I never chase GWF on any of my other classes (but I have an IQ above 90 -- or at least I did before playing this latest module but now I am not quite so sure anymore).
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
While I was farming the Drowned set over the weekend, I came across a GWF from Absolute, I think it was, who was sprinting around the area with 100% uptime, moving around like Speedy Gonzales. Surely that kind of mobility is too strong for a class wielding a sword the size of a church steeple.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I would gladly trade our Sprint for a dodge. The immunity frame should be moved from Unstoppable to the dodge.
It boggles the mind that a GWF has sprint over dodge - a totally unrealistic element to the game. There is already so much homogenization in classes that it won't make any difference in that regard by giving GWF something almost all the other classes have.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
@lirithiel checkout my GWF Speed Demon guide and yes u can sprint almost non stop
perma sprint is not the strongest ability in PVP yesterday a 4,1k CW with this special ring rank3, giving invisibility after 3 seconds, was trolling far worse geared player in Dom all time probably a player that suck in Dom vs equal geared player I guess, leaving the moment she saw that its a lose...
Instead building a char around the class itself, this is, around their own feats and powers as happends,
Bull, try it with something other than a destroyer build. you dont need lostmauth to deal silly amounts of damage with a destroyer build. you dont need 12k arpen anymore than any other class needs it to get around 80% dr and tenacity arpen resist.
you gwf's keep trying to deflect to "its the gear its not the destroyer spec" well you're either lying or deluding yourselves. neither of the other feat trees even come close with the exact same gear. so face facts, destroyer needs to be toned down some and the other specs need serious buffs.
Bull, try it with something other than a destroyer build. you dont need lostmauth to deal silly amounts of damage with a destroyer build. you dont need 12k arpen anymore than any other class needs it to get around 80% dr and tenacity arpen resist.
you gwf's keep trying to deflect to "its the gear its not the destroyer spec" well you're either lying or deluding yourselves. neither of the other feat trees even come close with the exact same gear. so face facts, destroyer needs to be toned down some and the other specs need serious buffs.
You're counting with SH boons + Axe beak as part of our "gear" but you are wrong. Those bonusses can be acquired by any other class too, like Feytouched, Negation and Lostmauth set, however and just as few examples, OPs can build their kit around bubble (Divine Protector), CWs around Renegade tree. GWF, on the other hand, GWF must build its kit around Feytouched, Negation and lostmaut to a lesser extend. That, mate, it's the main problem within the class itself. We can have all stacks in the whole D&D universe that, if "we" are not wearing those enchants and set, the class is on a sub-optimal (XDDDDDD . Grazillaxx owns) level compared to other classes.
everyone is suboptimal without tfey/negation/lostmauth. period. there is no balance in the chants. stack arpen hard, stack crit hard. stack defense hard, stack lifesteal hard. doesnt matter what class; everyone has to do the same thing if they wanna survive in pvp, its why tfey and negation are still the most expensive chants. just like in pve. vorpal and soulforged are the keys to the kingdom. to say that its a GWF issue is to be wearing blinders. what arti gear set. lostmauth ( with the sole exception being opressor wizards). heck even my cleric wears lostmauth. because 5% heal from tiamat is garbage. but a free hit or 2 might actually kill something. oh and 12k arpen is doable without the guild boon. but does require the axebeak.
oh and grab a ring of ambush and sieging while your at it. everynow now gets tank level defense while moving and stealth....
I think it is funny that you have fully maxed out GWFs that are just running around stealing kills and running away like chickens. I have never seen such insanity. Using Trans. Fey and Trans. Negation as crutches. lol. Bring back the skilled PVPers please.
Nah. Such builds are fine. They can do whatever the shi* they want. What's really "funny", is simply the amount of excuses they make while doing it. Which, basically this whole thread is.
A one long, winded excuse about how GWFs who 'game-the-game' (so to speak) are different from other classes who basically all do the same to survive in PvP.
The same frickin' holier-than-thou attitude since day1. That's what's really funny chit.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
One day some guy found that negation, feytouched and the WoE were broken at max levels. So he told everyone he knew, now we have this mess. It is not true that anyone needs these broken things.
go ahead and run around with a 5g horse, black ice arti set, a frost enchant, and bilethorn. go on. i dare ya.
I think it is funny that you have fully maxed out GWFs that are just running around stealing kills and running away like chickens. I have never seen such insanity. Using Trans. Fey and Trans. Negation as crutches. lol. Bring back the skilled PVPers please.
Nah. Such builds are fine. They can do whatever the shi* they want. What's really "funny", is simply the amount of excuses they make while doing it. Which, basically this whole thread is.
A one long, winded excuse about how GWFs who 'game-the-game' (so to speak) are different from other classes who basically all do the same to survive in PvP.
The same frickin' holier-than-thou attitude since day1. That's what's really funny chit.
Nope. This thread is where people like me reply to you guys explaining stuff in detail with wall of texts, and saying how to really balance things, and you reply "neeeerf!!! Pleaseeeeee" giving brainless suggestions that keep into account absolutely NOTHING and is exactly the same players did when GWFs were overnerfed during module 4.
The "funny" thing is that at the end of module 3 everyone was like you are now. "We want balance!". And asking for GWFs nerf, indiscriminate ones, with each player complaining about a different aspect. Too much damage. Too much survivability. Too much speed. Roar broken. Not even keeping into account how changing one of these aspects impact on the others. Result: GWF was overnerfed and pretty much all the players testing on preview were like "omfg look at what they did to the class".
Now you guys come up with the same attitude. You didn't even reply to my detailed post. Instead then replying with facts, better post bullsh*t in some sarcastic tone.
Good Job. You guys don't even listen, don't even think about balance. All you do is cry "too strong! Nerffffffffff" like babies. When someone tells you "yes, but the way to balance is not just "nerf", must consider this and this", you guys don't even read. Pitiful. Sorry if i sound rude. But i took the time to explain things in detail and you come up with another no-argument post i'd expect from guys like commanderdata or cesuke.
So it's not like GWFs find "excuses". More like mechanics are explained to you in detail to find a good way to balance, and you put your hands on your ears like babies and start screming "NNNNEEEEERFFFFFF".
I went from a "regular" power-based, T.terror setup, to a rough start of crit build with Vorpal, to a Crit build+G.Vorp+eLoL set. Damage on the first build is not so different from other classes, gets doubled by crit-based Vorpal users. Damage without eLoL set, using G.Vop is doubled when comparing it to the power based build with terror. Damage with the addition of eLoL increased the overall output by a good 30-40%.
This the truth. Someone else reported, in general discussion, the 300k procs from eLoL set on GWF. Procs are 10k on CW, they showed. Reason is: damage self buffs. Now:
eLoL set procs should NOT be affected by said buffs to be in line with other sets OR as you say, GWF self-buffs should be reduced. But then again, did you take the time to look at how it must be done? Answer: NO. Cause you guys do not care. Or simply don't have the knowledge. Let's try to explain again if someone got the BRAIN and READING COMPREHENSION to understand:
Number 1: GWF base damage is lower than other classes. Don't believe? Compare it to GF direct burst, CW, HR, TR, exc... Hit things with an unbuffed GWF damage. Then come back and tell me your result. I'll tell you: GWF base damage is pityful. And that's why the devs came up with the stacks system. Players were so obsessed with GWF that the devs wanted it more "proactive". So they nerfed the base damage and survivability of the class to a pityful level.
Challenge if you say GWF base damage and survivability are ok: i have a SW, 2.2k. Come online and fight me without using hidden daggers, destroyer (focused destroyer) and all the self-buffs you complain about. Take me any 2.2k GWF and test this.
So, just nerfing the fully buffed state would leave the GWF with a way weaker base than other classes and a slightly stronger "buffed state", which is not balanced. You must decrease the fully buffed state damage but also increase by some the base damage, so GWFs are less of a "monster" when fully buffed, but also start from a better position. Cause CWs, GFs, SWs, HRs, TRs, burst from the start.
Number 2: nerfing the self buffs has a chain effect. GWF base determination gain is slow. A DPS enemy like GF, CW, SW, HR, TR, can easily burn 40% of your HP before a GWF goes unstoppable with determination gained by damage received. This happened with module 4 nerf to determination gain. Determination gained by destroyer capstone at NO BUFFS is like 2% per hit. Laughable. Determination gain skyrockets when a destroyer is in fully buffed state. Now, nerfing the overall buffed state damage, means you also make the GWF go unstoppable less. Which means, you decrease survivability too. Also, unstoppable temporary HP scale with damage buffs. It means that the tone down to the fully buffed damage will double nerf survivability and impact on the class mechanic. Also, decreasing the fully buffed damage will decrease the amount of HP healed through lifesteal. So it's a triple nerf to survivability along with the nerf to damage. T.Fey will also be fixed and, as explained before, GWF is the only class that "must have" it to be viable (to reduce the incoming burst at the start, when the GWF is unbuffed).
Number 3: GWF is not PvP top dog, no matter how you guys try to make it look like it.
GFs counter them easily, 1 rotating them before they reach buffed state, and limiting their lifesteal self-heals with good use of shield. TRs counter them easily with piercing damage, piercing SE, piercing CB CC. OP bubbledins just don't give a HAMSTER and tank them along with 10 other players. DC tanks tank them, to a lesser degree than OP bubbledins.
As i said, you guys don't even care or don't know. Expecially about "Number 2". It's the same as module 4 overnerf: "Devs Nerf damage, nerf unstoppable, nerf DR, nerf survivability. Oh devs, while you're at it, please, nerf determination gain and nerf Roar. All these things impact on each others? Doesn't matter, we don't care. Uh, look. GWFs overnerfed in module 4. How amusing. Oh well, sorry for them." Now it's the same. "Devs please nerf self-buffs. Nerf battlefury. Nerf survivability. Nerf nerf nerf. Uh, all these things are linked and result in a chain of nerfs? Well, we don't really know the result but we don't really care. Just randomly nerf GWFs. The more, the better".
I'm quite vocal about this cause before module 4 overnerf we TRIED to explain what would happen. And guys replied like you (dufisto) and kweassa. Saying we were just finding excuses. Then, when they noticed their NONSENSE BULLSH*T FILLED WITH LACK OF KNOWLEDGE resulted in an overnerf, the replies were "who cares, you've been overpowered 2 modules, now it's our turn".
And again, funny thing is, that current GWF is not even the top dog in PvP, as explained above.
But go ahead guys. Keep acting like paladins of class balance while screaming for indiscriminate nerfs and avoiding real discussions about mechanics and ways to balance stuff FOR REAL.
One day some guy found that negation, feytouched and the WoE were broken at max levels. So he told everyone he knew, now we have this mess. It is not true that anyone needs these broken things.
go ahead and run around with a 5g horse, black ice arti set, a frost enchant, and bilethorn. go on. i dare ya.
OPaladins can be strong even without them. TRs can use Vorpal and SF and the MI/Sabo build can still perform well. DC can wear elven battle and another random enchant and still tank very well and be strong. They will be at a disadvantage vs users of overperforming enchants, but the class itself would still work outside T.Fey-T.Neg.
Give a GWF a Soulforged and another enchant and the impact will be much bigger. Cause GWF strenght comes mainly from very specific interaction between class design and these enchants. Same as eLoL set performing at a much higher level on GWF then, for example, on SW or CW.
It really seems to me that you guys have no in-depth knowledge of the mechanics behind some in-game results. Now, i'm not an expert and behind some more knowledgeable BiS players who test things more. But at least i know the stuff i explained above in the other post too.
You guys don't. And don't efen give a f. Proof is, you just ask for "nerfs", don't even try to discuss mechanics and what each change would bring. You just scream "nerf" like any other nab screaming for generic nerfs on other classes. For example, the nabs screaming for a generic "nerf to TR stealth" or a "nerf to piercing damage/SE", without compensations and an overall look at the results.
The real funny thing is players not even planning/ suggesting tone downs/ balance changes with some knowledge and discussion behind it, and yet acting as if they were paladins of class balance who care about creating a better PvP environment.
Comments
Leaving out how hypocritical it is when a semi-perma, MI/Sabo complains about GWFs being able to get away easily using battlefury (happens), or how players still complained about battlefury at the beginning of module 4 when GWFs were overnerfed, with the exception of BiS geared intimidation builds (1% of GWF population could use that build, the rest was useless), while at the same time making fun of GWFs cause they could "only run" after the massive overnerf.
People has been complaining about battlefury builds since module 4, when GWFs were in such a sorry state after the overnerf that those who could not exploit the intimidation BiS builds, were trying the "runner" path. And even then, players complained that GWFs could run too much, even if, and you should remember it well, anything out of the BiS intimidation builds, was very weak compared to other classes.
Now, battlefury builds give up one offensive encounter and lose some burst to get strategic advantage and the ability to faster reposition themselves. Compared to stationary builds they lose either points in executioner's style or focused destroyer= DPS loss, and lose either daring shout mark or another offensive encounter. So it's not like the build doesn't come with downsides.
You increase something, you lose something else.
But no. Don't like if GWFs can run too much either, so please, nerf. As if other classes didn't have specific builds that max-out a specific aspect of the class.
So now we have, all together, players complaining about:
GWF deals too much damage when fully buffed
GWF self-heals too much/ survives too much
GWF can run too much
Obviously, with specific, overperforming gear, no less. But this is not important. Must be the class.
which completely ignores the fact that
point #2 comes mainly from T.Fey-T.Neg interaction with class mechanics at BiS levels, cause those ENCHANTS are overbuffed, and NOT from own class survivability. But then players say "yes, GWFs without T.Fey and T.Neg (nothing less) are not hard to kill. So...yeah..the problem is not the enchants but the class. Nerf the class." Auto-contraddicting themselves, so blatantly HAMSTER i am speechless.
point #3 is a specific build that comes with good sides and bad sides
So with this scenario and the noobish, indiscriminate complaints about every aspect of the class that might create problems, the devs would most likely nerf all at once, similar to module 4 overnerf. Which, apparently, didn't teach players anything.
For example, that just toning down the full-buff damage and raising a bit the class base damage would overall not just balance DPS, but also decrease survivability cause it would nerf the determination gain when in buffed state by a lot= less unstoppable=less temp HP shield.
Also, balancing DPS would make it even more clear how battlefury builds lose burst to gain mobility.
But no, let players like feanor post some hysterical complaint about GWF, open another thread to complain, may be, about how BiS GWFs can self heal and deal too much damage, and nerf all at once damage, unstoppable (again) and battlefury (lol).
I already know how the non-GWF playerbase usually sees GWF balance. Like this guy at the start of module 4. After a discussion about how GWF were overnerfed, he said something like "oh well, i don't care. It's our turn now. Get wrecked".
Which is not even the case now cause GWFs are not PvP top dogs, with GFs, TRs, OPs, tank DCs easily countering them or stalling them.
When i discuss other classes i always balance changes to the broken mechanics with buffs to something else. Cause i try to understand what can be done to eliminate bad mechanics in favor of strong, but more balanced ones.
Example: reworking of piercing damage or HR permaroot while buffing damage/survivability coming from other powers, to have a still strong class, but with more balanced mechanics.
Looks like other players instead, just want my main class nerfed to the ground again in a module 4-style, with complaints about every single tool, be it damage, survivability or mobility. Not even taking the time to understand what comes from the class, what comes from the overperforming interactions with BiS gear of BiS builds. You guys never learn.
Keep going for the "complain about everything at once" approach. Just like players do with TRs.
And when you try to explain and discuss, you are suddenly "playing the victim". Funny.
While i can understand the complaints about the damage, i think that jumping on battlefury builds too is very, very lame. Expecially considering how players keep ignoring the fact that only at BiS gear with T.Fey and T.Neg, the GWF makes the "jump" and becomes so powerful.
I can't re-explain things again and again. Players never learn.
1. So tell me why Repel can Ignore Unstoppable? isn't it a CC skill,
2. Why can Repel stack to other Repel's ?? (seriously this is just stupid, 2CW's and you fly like a ping-pong)
So next, You always forget, "when you say something about GWF"
GWF -> "with"," and", "plus", "When", "have", " Only"," Are" etc... so what i mean with this:
The GWF class have "to Have" always "at first" to be someone.
(gwf is extrem gear based class, if you don't have the right items or none of them you'r simple no one, an easy kill for everyone)
An example you say " GWF is OP with t.neg"
What's about the GWF's whitout those items??
Nothing because they are Paper an easy target for everyone, "The GWF class alone are Weak",
it cannot stand alone for their own, like other classes-
Now, my GWF has a good build that is basically created also using feedback given by talking with the experienced BiS GWFs i meet sometimes. It can tank some and i even could beat 1v1 another GWF in the 3k range, with him using T.Fey-T.Neg-eLoL, vs my T.Terror-G.SF-Lathander set.
But still, the gap between soulforged and negation is huge. Simply because T.Neg>>>> any other enchant. If i'm not mistaken, to "cancel" negation you need 3k ArP, that with a 70% ArP resist from tenacity means 10k ArP stat. Which equals to an axebeak mount and at least a SH boon at 5k ArP (assuming you try to get free ArP from these sources).
Being "ungeared" or "bald built" means you don't have T.Fey-T.Neg-eLoL-axebeak.
Now, some classes have no specific gear requirement to perform well. Obviously any class in a BiS premade needs the best stuff, but a GF, OP, DC, CW exc...still performs well with other enchants. You meet here and there geared (3.5k iLvL range) PvP toons from other classes using elven battle, vorpal, terror, and they still can perform well. Example:a GF with vorpal or terror can still fight, cause his survivability comes from shield, his burst from base damage buffed in module 6, while a GWF without T.Fey is considered a bad GWF and usually is also quite underperforming. A DC tank with elven battle can still fight. Cause his survivability comes from powers, enhanced by elven or negation, they still are strong.
GWFs NEED that specific combo or is weak. I compensated that partially on my GWF, but even so, the difference is often clear.
A TR with my enchant choice, a MI/Sabo, would still be powerful. A GWF wouldn't.
Doesn't this ring a bell about what comes from the class, and what comes from other stuff?
Same as with old intimidation builds. Players were asking for all kind of nerfs other than intimidation itself, cause "GWFs are too strong, oneshotting everyone". Yeah, only the 20k+ ones (old gear score).
Now i see the same. Thread over thread. "GWFs deal too much damage, self heal too much, run too much".
I say this:
Balance T.Fey
Balance .Neg with other enchants
Balance eLoL
cause this combo is EXPECIALLY good for GWFs (best sinergy)
After that, re-check the class. Still too powerful? Ok. Considerations:
- GWF buffed status deals too much damage
- same damage is achieved by GFs, who have the upper hand vs GWFs usually. Same for TRs, and OPs/DCs can stall them too
- base GWF damage is too low
- a needed nerf to buffed status overall damage impacts also survivability: less life steal, slower determination gain from capstone (base determination gain is slow, it gets noticeable only in buffed status) and less temp HP from unstoppable (scale with damage buffs).
- with lower buffed damage, battlefury builds lose, even more clearly, burst potential, which again already makes the build very specific and far from being in need of any kind of nerf, just because some players hate when the enemy can "run away" (loses "stationary" potential/ damage, gains the ability to freely engage/ disengage).
So, you balance the class already by:
- decreasing fully buffed damage by some degree (say 30%? Needs test)
- increasing base damage by, say, 10%
Loses fully buffed sustained damage 20% total, makes the class less reliant on self-buffs (a bit more powerful at the start of the fight, less of a monster once in fully buffed status).
Loses survivability due to less lifesteal amount and slower unstoppable with also less temp HP (that scale with damage buffs). How many players consider the fact that the (needed) nerf to self-buffs, also decreases GWF survivability by a good amount? Very few, i'd say.
Also, other considerations: GFs would gain a consistent, larger advantage over an equally geared GWF since they already burst as high as a fully buffed GWF when correctly built, and can tank with shield. Piercing TRs would have aneven easier time. OP/DCs would gain an advantage.
Cause, as said, GWF is NOT the top dog. It's countered well by multiple classes and builds. So, if you tone down GWFs to balance them with CWs and SWs, you must also tone down other classes by some.
Also, if we want to get rid of every unbalanced mechanic we must:
- rework piercing damage and give TRs more DPS on other powers with a proper mechanic
- rework permarooting HR, giving them more survivability to compensate the loss of their perma CC/ interrupt
- tone down GF monster burst
Right now, we have some kind of "rock-paper-scissors" system. GF beats GWF, HR beats GF (i hear that), TR beats GWF, HR can beat TR, GWF beats HR, and so on...
If you want all classes to match each others, you must balance all of them, not just one. At least the "top ones" (TR,OP,DC,GWF,GF,HR permarooter). Then see how SW and CW (the weakest ones right now?) perform after the rebalance.
I find it useful cause may be sometimes i am wrong and discussing an issue with someone else helps me learn something. And sometimes if i am right, may be someone understands what i try to say. Not everyone, obviously. But if i can help even 1 single player, it's worth it.
Btw, love that GIF Leeroy, made me rotfl XD
At least, looking back on the level of utility or importance us TRs or you GWFs had in PvP, we've got nothing to excuse ourselves to. Every major or influential or cocky jackarse or psychopath or whatever in this PvP community is either a GWF main or a TR main. It may not sound like its relevant, but in reality, which classes the most 'famous' people play as their main actually has a long history as a method of identifying which class holds absolute dominance -- and like mentioned, this isn't about individual performance/skill of a class/player, but rather the "big picture" the entire class paints out in terms of PvP.
In that aspect, like it or not, the classes that represent PvP in this game are GWFs and TRs. Both of our classes, frankly speaking, need a long line of nerfs by either way of tweaking the class itself, or changing the PvP environment as a whole, so that our general efficiency and influence is reduced and other classes and builds are considered just as much viable option for PvP.
Just look at the number of you GWF players complaining about us TRs, who are the only class currently in game that has a power that directly counters this whole sprinting ordeal. I don't think we're in a position to complain about other class/players complaining about us, because we're just as guilty as any one of them.
Besides, what does it matter? The devs stopped caring about PvP a long time ago, and nothing's gonna change. No amount of our discussions will ever get their notice. All of this talk is relevant only when the guys making this game intend to listen. They don't, so golly shi*, they can go f**k the game balance all they want. Not a single cent's coming out of me anymore.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Let me explain.
Module 2 and 3 GWFs were dominant. Before that, they were so weak that people made fun of them. Remember? Then the regeneration builds surfaced and PvP GWFs became the back-cappers of choice in premades (if i'm not mistaken).
Module 4, the class was far from "omnipotent". If you look around, BiS intimidation builds were one-rotating enemies, but also going down very, very fast with CWs old SS uberprocs, TRs increased damage and still top survivability, and new shiny DPS DC killing them very fast. Remember a video of Sobek, with him getting to mid node and dying in about 2.5s from 2 CWs crossfire. And anything under the BiS intimidation builds was FAR from omnipotent. Module 5 even less with intimidation tone-down.
Now after module 6, what we have is something different. Basically, again GWF gets to shine with specific BiS gear, nothing less.
Is it omnipotent? It sure is at the top but, as i said, considering a BiS GWF:
One-rotating, BiS GFs counter them perfectly
BiS TRs counter them perfectly with MI-Sabo builds
BiS OP stall them no problem. Well, BiS OPs just don't die and are probably at the top right now.
BiS DC tank stall them no problem
If you notice, i never "complain about another class". I discuss mechanics. And how to make overall changes to make MECHANICS more balanced. For example, when i discussed TRs in some topic i talked about a piercing damage rework/ removal but, at the same time, buffs to damage from other powers that might balance the piercing damage rework, giving also, may be, more possibilities to TRs.
Yesterday i came across a BiS GWF that just would not die and one-rotate me. I think it's no different from a BiS tank GF who can one-rotate me, an OP who can tank 10 enemies, a TR hitting through everything and so on. It's the result of bad design, interactions and mechanics. A GF cannot self-heal as much as a GWF (they hit way less), but in a 1v1 scenario is a perfect counter. I'm pretty sure a BiS GF would one-rotate the BiS GWF i met, and just tank him with shield. An OP bubbledin would tank him. My team won in fact, cause our OP bubbledin was probably better than theirs. They also got a BiS geared CW, very foul mouthed (talking about cocky classes), but he was not as powerful as the GWF. Still powerful, but not that much. Now i can look at that and think that CW is not balanced if compared to a GWF, and that GWFs are ahead in PvP, right now. So, however, 4k+ CW and 4k+ "omnipotent" GWF with bubbledin in team, were still countered by a team far from BiS.
So not really omnipotent, cause you have other classes that can counter them. same with TR.
Have you seen the video of a certain BiS TR vs a BiS HR? The HR permarooter out-healed the TR and won.
So if you give TRs a "long line of nerfs", what happens then to that TRvsHR trapper?
If you give a "long line of nerfs" to GWFs, what happens when they meet a GF, OP, DC?
Popular classes rotate. In module 4 it was TR and CW. Still same in module 5. And you met a ton of sh*thead CWs and TRs. Few GWFs cause only BiS ones were viable. Module 2-3 GWFs were everywhere, and you could meet a ton of GWF HAMSTER, while TRs were more rare and usually permatroll builds that couldn't really kill much. So less "cocky" TRs.
Reason? HAMSTER are usually powerplayers switching from 1 FOTM DPS class to another, to "stomp" enemies. You don't see FOTM powerplayers going to a tank class. They want to kill.
So, right now they go GWF and TR cause well, these classes kill better and are overall more complete (GF can one-rotate better than GWF, cause they don't need stacks, but in a group fight he dies faster due to less life-steal, usually).
If, next module, CWs will be back to some monster one-rotating DPS rework, and GWFs/TRs get nerfed, you'll see more "cocky" CWs.
So it's not really a matter of one specific class. More like "cocky" players usually swarm the FOTModule DPS class.
Balance the mechanics and gear once and for all, and those "cocky" players will migrate to another game where they can stomp enemies exploiting some overpowered sh*t. Right now, NW is the best place to do that, so they are all here. :shrugs:
Taunt effect:
Whack a player and tease them "lol you can never kill me
Effective: Against players with IQ less than 90, and it works miraclely well
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
yesterday a 4,1k CW with this special ring rank3, giving invisibility after 3 seconds, was trolling far worse geared player in Dom all time
probably a player that suck in Dom vs equal geared player I guess, leaving the moment she saw that its a lose...
perma sprint-->GWF
perma stealth-->TR
perma alive--->OP
perma dodge-->DC
perma daze--->Hunter
you gwf's keep trying to deflect to "its the gear its not the destroyer spec" well you're either lying or deluding yourselves. neither of the other feat trees even come close with the exact same gear. so face facts, destroyer needs to be toned down some and the other specs need serious buffs.
oh and 12k arpen is doable without the guild boon. but does require the axebeak.
oh and grab a ring of ambush and sieging while your at it. everynow now gets tank level defense while moving and stealth....
What's really "funny", is simply the amount of excuses they make while doing it.
Which, basically this whole thread is.
A one long, winded excuse about how GWFs who 'game-the-game' (so to speak) are different
from other classes who basically all do the same to survive in PvP.
The same frickin' holier-than-thou attitude since day1. That's what's really funny chit.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The "funny" thing is that at the end of module 3 everyone was like you are now. "We want balance!". And asking for GWFs nerf, indiscriminate ones, with each player complaining about a different aspect. Too much damage. Too much survivability. Too much speed. Roar broken. Not even keeping into account how changing one of these aspects impact on the others.
Result: GWF was overnerfed and pretty much all the players testing on preview were like "omfg look at what they did to the class".
Now you guys come up with the same attitude. You didn't even reply to my detailed post. Instead then replying with facts, better post bullsh*t in some sarcastic tone.
Good Job. You guys don't even listen, don't even think about balance. All you do is cry "too strong! Nerffffffffff" like babies. When someone tells you "yes, but the way to balance is not just "nerf", must consider this and this", you guys don't even read. Pitiful. Sorry if i sound rude. But i took the time to explain things in detail and you come up with another no-argument post i'd expect from guys like commanderdata or cesuke.
So it's not like GWFs find "excuses". More like mechanics are explained to you in detail to find a good way to balance, and you put your hands on your ears like babies and start screming "NNNNEEEEERFFFFFF".
@dufisto:
I went from a "regular" power-based, T.terror setup, to a rough start of crit build with Vorpal, to a Crit build+G.Vorp+eLoL set.
Damage on the first build is not so different from other classes, gets doubled by crit-based Vorpal users.
Damage without eLoL set, using G.Vop is doubled when comparing it to the power based build with terror.
Damage with the addition of eLoL increased the overall output by a good 30-40%.
This the truth. Someone else reported, in general discussion, the 300k procs from eLoL set on GWF. Procs are 10k on CW, they showed.
Reason is: damage self buffs.
Now:
eLoL set procs should NOT be affected by said buffs to be in line with other sets
OR
as you say, GWF self-buffs should be reduced. But then again, did you take the time to look at how it must be done?
Answer: NO. Cause you guys do not care. Or simply don't have the knowledge.
Let's try to explain again if someone got the BRAIN and READING COMPREHENSION to understand:
Number 1: GWF base damage is lower than other classes. Don't believe? Compare it to GF direct burst, CW, HR, TR, exc... Hit things with an unbuffed GWF damage. Then come back and tell me your result. I'll tell you: GWF base damage is pityful.
And that's why the devs came up with the stacks system. Players were so obsessed with GWF that the devs wanted it more "proactive". So they nerfed the base damage and survivability of the class to a pityful level.
Challenge if you say GWF base damage and survivability are ok: i have a SW, 2.2k. Come online and fight me without using hidden daggers, destroyer (focused destroyer) and all the self-buffs you complain about. Take me any 2.2k GWF and test this.
So, just nerfing the fully buffed state would leave the GWF with a way weaker base than other classes and a slightly stronger "buffed state", which is not balanced. You must decrease the fully buffed state damage but also increase by some the base damage, so GWFs are less of a "monster" when fully buffed, but also start from a better position. Cause CWs, GFs, SWs, HRs, TRs, burst from the start.
Number 2: nerfing the self buffs has a chain effect. GWF base determination gain is slow. A DPS enemy like GF, CW, SW, HR, TR, can easily burn 40% of your HP before a GWF goes unstoppable with determination gained by damage received. This happened with module 4 nerf to determination gain. Determination gained by destroyer capstone at NO BUFFS is like 2% per hit. Laughable. Determination gain skyrockets when a destroyer is in fully buffed state.
Now, nerfing the overall buffed state damage, means you also make the GWF go unstoppable less. Which means, you decrease survivability too. Also, unstoppable temporary HP scale with damage buffs. It means that the tone down to the fully buffed damage will double nerf survivability and impact on the class mechanic. Also, decreasing the fully buffed damage will decrease the amount of HP healed through lifesteal. So it's a triple nerf to survivability along with the nerf to damage.
T.Fey will also be fixed and, as explained before, GWF is the only class that "must have" it to be viable (to reduce the incoming burst at the start, when the GWF is unbuffed).
Number 3: GWF is not PvP top dog, no matter how you guys try to make it look like it.
GFs counter them easily, 1 rotating them before they reach buffed state, and limiting their lifesteal self-heals with good use of shield.
TRs counter them easily with piercing damage, piercing SE, piercing CB CC.
OP bubbledins just don't give a HAMSTER and tank them along with 10 other players.
DC tanks tank them, to a lesser degree than OP bubbledins.
As i said, you guys don't even care or don't know. Expecially about "Number 2".
It's the same as module 4 overnerf: "Devs Nerf damage, nerf unstoppable, nerf DR, nerf survivability. Oh devs, while you're at it, please, nerf determination gain and nerf Roar. All these things impact on each others? Doesn't matter, we don't care. Uh, look. GWFs overnerfed in module 4. How amusing. Oh well, sorry for them."
Now it's the same. "Devs please nerf self-buffs. Nerf battlefury. Nerf survivability. Nerf nerf nerf. Uh, all these things are linked and result in a chain of nerfs? Well, we don't really know the result but we don't really care. Just randomly nerf GWFs. The more, the better".
I'm quite vocal about this cause before module 4 overnerf we TRIED to explain what would happen. And guys replied like you (dufisto) and kweassa. Saying we were just finding excuses.
Then, when they noticed their NONSENSE BULLSH*T FILLED WITH LACK OF KNOWLEDGE resulted in an overnerf, the replies were "who cares, you've been overpowered 2 modules, now it's our turn".
And again, funny thing is, that current GWF is not even the top dog in PvP, as explained above.
But go ahead guys. Keep acting like paladins of class balance while screaming for indiscriminate nerfs and avoiding real discussions about mechanics and ways to balance stuff FOR REAL.
TRs can use Vorpal and SF and the MI/Sabo build can still perform well.
DC can wear elven battle and another random enchant and still tank very well and be strong.
They will be at a disadvantage vs users of overperforming enchants, but the class itself would still work outside T.Fey-T.Neg.
Give a GWF a Soulforged and another enchant and the impact will be much bigger. Cause GWF strenght comes mainly from very specific interaction between class design and these enchants. Same as eLoL set performing at a much higher level on GWF then, for example, on SW or CW.
It really seems to me that you guys have no in-depth knowledge of the mechanics behind some in-game results.
Now, i'm not an expert and behind some more knowledgeable BiS players who test things more. But at least i know the stuff i explained above in the other post too.
You guys don't. And don't efen give a f.
Proof is, you just ask for "nerfs", don't even try to discuss mechanics and what each change would bring.
You just scream "nerf" like any other nab screaming for generic nerfs on other classes. For example, the nabs screaming for a generic "nerf to TR stealth" or a "nerf to piercing damage/SE", without compensations and an overall look at the results.
The real funny thing is players not even planning/ suggesting tone downs/ balance changes with some knowledge and discussion behind it, and yet acting as if they were paladins of class balance who care about creating a better PvP environment.