We havent had Strongholds on Xbox that long and we are a small Guild, however I already know this would be an awful Idea, it could never be accurate, we use Guildmarks as a guild to identify who needs stuff to contribute to get them up to max level so there would be weeks where some guys wont be contributing because they pass stuff over to other guildies to help them max out their marks. The log therefore would bear no relation to the reality of a persons contribution, the only thing that matters is the time spent in game anything else is irrelevant imho!
Ok look iv asked a few times for you guys to add in a drop down on the roster page that shows the total contributions for each member, this is needed information that you guys have yet to provide us ingame, specficily the guild leaders want this for making better choices for promotions instead of just relying off of TIL or time spent in the guild, sure they could have been there 6 months and have a TIL of 3k but if their not donating anything im not going to promote them, so once again Please add in a drop down on the guild roster page for total contributions this is definitely needed information for us guild leaders....
I truly believe to be efficient and be able to manage your guild, knock out the free riders, there would be a system in place to quickly and easily determine who did what. No one would care who are doing their part for the guild, and would be easier and less time consuming for the guild leader. This should of been a TOP OF THE LIST item, I would think?
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
I'm only going to say this once. Insulting other people just because you have a difference in opinion will NOT be tolerated on these forums. Period. If someone is insulting you, flag the post, and then DO NOT engage with the person. Thank you.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
We havent had Strongholds on Xbox that long and we are a small Guild, however I already know this would be an awful Idea, it could never be accurate, we use Guildmarks as a guild to identify who needs stuff to contribute to get them up to max level so there would be weeks where some guys wont be contributing because they pass stuff over to other guildies to help them max out their marks. The log therefore would bear no relation to the reality of a persons contribution, the only thing that matters is the time spent in game anything else is irrelevant imho!
lol well that's your opinion, lol awful idea how iis it awful to have your total contributions displayed out to right of your name, I think the only thing awful here is that cryptic didn't do this from the start, like it should have been done.
I could use this information for many thing, pass out rewards to highest donator, boot non-donators and leeches, and have additional information that actual guild leaders use.
And im sure it would be accurate enough to tell you when some1 has a big fat 0 next to their name...
Indeed it is just my opinion hence "IMHO" thats what fora are for.
I for one dont need a big stick to wave over the heads of my guildies as a GL and find the desire for "disciplinary tools" dubious in the extreme.
As others have stated its a game not a full time occupation (although at times it can feel like it is)
The guild marks should be all the incentive guild members should need to contribute, on that subject any chance of increasing the cap Devs? It doesnt take long to max it out in the early stages and once maxed there is little incentive for some guys to continue contributing when the marks are wasted?
personally, I don't understand what all the arguing is about. IMHO its pretty simple. If they were to add this, yes, it will allow the leaders and members of any guild to see who is and isn't donating. But it does not mean that every guild will suddenly decide to start using it as a means of deciding if they should boot someone or not. Hell it might even spur some members to start giving more not because they're getting HAMSTER from other members but because they see what others are donating and feel that maybe they should donate more. I knowif I was only giving the minimum amount and then saw that others are giving twice that, I would feel bad and want to start giving more just feel like im pulling my fair share.
And honestly, as a very very long time member of my guild, if the leaders suddenly decided that based on this new feature what im giving isn't enough then I wouldn't want to be a part of that guild anyways and personally I think most of you should feel the same way. Would it suck being kicked out a guild that I've been apart of for so long? Sure it would, but I know that there are other laid back guilds out that there that would be more then happy with the amount that I or anyone else would give.
And lets be honest, a bad leader is a bad leader and word gets around so any leader that gets a swelled head and becomes dictator like would soon find himself unable to get or keep new members and ultimately would have to face being a man building his SH alone or at the very least realizing that he has asked too much of his members. And of course there will those that will use such a person for their own gains like joining long enough to high lvl SH items then leave.
So really I personally am not worried about what this could do to any guild because the simple fact is, every person that gets booted from a guild for not donating enough is another possible recruit for my guild.
I was unaware that donating was some sort of competition and I fail to see how that would make people work harder. They do what they can when they can. Seeing a leaderboard of sorts does not give them more time to gain more contribution.
Well that's an opinion of someone who doesn't believe in motivation to drive people to work harder.
It may not be a competition to you, but I can bet you if there was an announcement for top influence donator of the week somewhere on the guild page, there will be an overall increase of people doing their daily influence for the guild. Seeing the leaderboard does not give them more time, it gives them more incentive.
If you still fail to see that, then you're blinded by your 'do what they can when they can' attitude. It's completely fine, but you should keep some of your opinions and comments to yourself.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
I was unaware that donating was some sort of competition and I fail to see how that would make people work harder. They do what they can when they can. Seeing a leaderboard of sorts does not give them more time to gain more contribution.
Well that's an opinion of someone who doesn't believe in motivation to drive people to work harder.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with magenubbie here. This is a game, not a job. My sole motivation for playing it at any time is to provide myself with fun and entertainment. If someone else in the game were to attempt to drive me to do anything other than play for fun, they would receive a polite but very firm rejection. I might 'work harder' out here in the Real World but I do not work at all in NWO, I play a game for pleasure and enjoyment. The thought of working within any game never enters my mind.
big fat zero next to someones name, the rest of the guildies who have been busting their a$$es for the past X amount of time are not going to be happy
Only if they know. And it's not their business to know anyway. Nor do they know the details of my playing time, the amount of dungeons I helped people through or any other relevant information required to make a judgement on a person's value to the guild. People put way too much emphasis on the donation numbers and don't care enough about the other ways guild members are contributing to the welfare of the guild and its members.
not their place to know lol, or none of their business lol wtf is this mess, you know what I hope they install this feature just to make you squirm magenubbie, I want everyone to know if some1 is leeching in a guild just using the boons and other guildies, this is the issue @ hand and you are defending leeches........ makes you look really bright
This tells me all I need to know about you , your guild and your motivations.
Hilarious how some people desperately try to prevent such a move from happening. No, donating is not a competition. No, this board is not used to shame others or as means of kicking. The SH is built purely thanks to group effort and teamplay. If I want to divide resources evenly between members (which is something we actually do practice), I have to nag officers from a nap to go check the guild donation tab and make sure everything's recorded in the spreadsheet before the log goes away. For equality and fairness, a complete and utter devotion of each person will be required, to complete the whole, everyone needs to pitch in. My guess? Said people who are actively trying to flunk the idea are either:
a. not donating/being lazy b. shy of their resources or lack there of (and that's a problem in your entire community, nobody should ever be ashamed if they're broke) c. not in a large/competitive guild
People who want more know what they sign up for. If they want a rapid pace, a more demanding environment, they know which guilds to join and they know they will need pitch in with the donations. As far as the idea goes, as a guild leader I don't care which dailies or how many people do, I generally expect people to at least do their daily influence on their mains, SH dailies and that's it. When AD donations are due we split everything between everyone and it's simple. I would like to reward players who actively do more than needed, so a general score or something would be nice. Don't be mistaken, most big guilds already vet donations and run either a spreadsheet or a detailed log. Not your cup of tea? Don't join a competitive guild. A chart IS needed, of any sort, at least to make lives easier on the guild's leadership.
Stop preaching about 'leaving guildies alone to do whatever they want and donate whatever they want', if this would be the case in all guilds no one would go anywhere and everything would take ages. QQ's about a certain approach being elitist, snob, horrible, dictatorship, big brother, we've heard it all. Don't like it? Don't join. And yes I'll confirm, people do more under the impression it's being checked. Remember homework back in school? They do something for themselves and the greater good by donating, they're not giving away a part of their soul to the devil.
Give the guilds that do want the option the ability to take it, if this is not something that's acceptable in other guilds then they should either ignore it or make it a leadership only view. There are ways around everything to make it balanced and fair for everyone.
Good god, I said it's not a competition and it shouldn't be if everyone's supposed to donate the SAME amount and the same share. How can it possibly turn into a competition if everyone's equal in their AD donations? It really bothers me how you seem to preach about enjoying the game, not checking numbers, being fair like this is your utopia country. I'm enjoying the game in the pace I set for myself, my guildies are enjoying the guild and the game as well, they chose to be in a place that runs a spreadsheet to make sure everyone's doing what they're supposed to and everything's peaceful, trust me. If the devs will stop creating and new content and tools in fear of it being abused you can shut down the game right the hell now. I'm sorry, but this is not a good enough reason. As I said, this should be either accessible by leadership only to not make it a stir tool between guildies or just make it purchasable and or with an off/on switch.
I will not give you my resume since this isn't the time or the place but I do know a thing or two about managing, especially large groups of people, and you can be as involved and as caring as you can be counting the numbers and reporting at the end of the day. It's not one way or another, it can be done together easily.
Gotta love how this "omg your guild checks donations? SHAME SHAME SHAME DICTATORSHIP CALL 911" became a thing. Suddenly a guild with requirements and set goals is mean, evil, treats the members poorly, etc. Exactly like how you made it sound like a mad idea when you mentioned a "sporting event" like it's a big bad thing. I would re-evaluate the situation in that case, it's time to open your eyes to a whole new world of elite =/- horrible. Not your playstyle? fine, but don't preach against it like it's a bad thing.
I think this is a great idea. It is too hard to monitor people who do not contribute otherwise and their are way too many free loaders who just join for boons and don't do HAMSTER to help out.
You're over-reacting and you do it in the hope of creating sympathy for your case. Effective for some people, but alas, I see through it. You're free to run whatever spreadsheet you wish. I really couldn't care less as long as you remain fair. I'm not stopping you from doing it. But you cannot deny the reasonable probability that, with such a tool freely available, no new player will be able to join a guild before he has done every campaign and has so much spare resources that he can afford being in a guild. That's not what this game should be about and I don't believe that guilds should demand a certain amount of wealth of playtime from their members.
What? 1. How an info tool creates policy ? An info tool is an info tool, it's up to those that use it to create policy. If a guild leader decides that he will kick everyone who wont donate their left kidney in 12 hours, it's their choice, you can't blame excel for being used to keep track of who has how many kidneys.
Tools can be used to help people compare & improve, and can also be used to kick and whatever. As with a lot of things it's up to the users to decide how they use it. Should be ban ACT, it helps to measure players too ?! Should we remove weapon enchants ? they differentiate people, those who have them are superior.
You think after almost 3 years playing I need a pain-giver chart to roughly judge a player ?! I assure you I do not. So after removing all measurement tools that can also easily help people to improve, and now we relay on educated guesses: Should we disable custom channels ? I know of few that are specifically for high gear, or high skill. Guilds too can be removed, as they provide a tool for creating subgroups...
Everything must be measured by it's benefit and risk, people die left and right from car accidents, but we still use those cars. We try to minimize the risk and maximize the benefit. In this simple tool, people don't like the tool usage, they are free to move a guild.
My suggestion is that the tool must be part of the rank permissions, the guild leader must be able to set what ranks can see it and what can't. And it should have full detail, what resource and amount, as a total per handle, per server week, per month, and a full total. A global total of marks is not useful.
2. Not only it's not a reasonable probability, it's a completely false statement, the probability for "no new player will be able to join a guild before he has done every campaign and has so much spare resources that he can afford being in a guild." is 0, nil, null, nothing. Guids are can be made for free, and over long term are bound to demand and supply, there are many of them, people free (in choice, if not in perceived price) to migrate, create new, or 'revolt'/unionize - I want to see a 'dictator' dictate when all the guild leaves... and spread the word..
3. I probably repeat myself (sorry), but don't put all guilds in one bin, all your worst fears in all people... I don't know by what you assume that everyone abuse everything, not everyone kicks on pain-giver, not every guild demands prices, not every guild ran by strict dictatorship, not everyone wants a tool like that to demote, punish or whatever. If the least that I could do is send a guild mail with thanks to someone who contributed of his time / AD or whatever if by helping other run dungeons or farming influence or anything else, this is the least I want to be able to do, and I don't need some others bad experience in some other guilds to prevent me an easy way to do so.
Ok look iv asked a few times for you guys to add in a drop down on the roster page that shows the total contributions for each member, this is needed information that you guys have yet to provide us ingame, specficily the guild leaders want this for making better choices for promotions instead of just relying off of TIL or time spent in the guild, sure they could have been there 6 months and have a TIL of 3k but if their not donating anything im not going to promote them, so once again Please add in a drop down on the guild roster page for total contributions this is definitely needed information for us guild leaders....
I agree with this. actually i thought it was already or would of been installed from the beginning to help guild leaders. manage guilds.
Comments
The log therefore would bear no relation to the reality of a persons contribution, the only thing that matters is the time spent in game anything else is irrelevant imho!
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I for one dont need a big stick to wave over the heads of my guildies as a GL and find the desire for "disciplinary tools" dubious in the extreme.
As others have stated its a game not a full time occupation (although at times it can feel like it is)
The guild marks should be all the incentive guild members should need to contribute, on that subject any chance of increasing the cap Devs? It doesnt take long to max it out in the early stages and once maxed there is little incentive for some guys to continue contributing when the marks are wasted?
And honestly, as a very very long time member of my guild, if the leaders suddenly decided that based on this new feature what im giving isn't enough then I wouldn't want to be a part of that guild anyways and personally I think most of you should feel the same way. Would it suck being kicked out a guild that I've been apart of for so long? Sure it would, but I know that there are other laid back guilds out that there that would be more then happy with the amount that I or anyone else would give.
And lets be honest, a bad leader is a bad leader and word gets around so any leader that gets a swelled head and becomes dictator like would soon find himself unable to get or keep new members and ultimately would have to face being a man building his SH alone or at the very least realizing that he has asked too much of his members. And of course there will those that will use such a person for their own gains like joining long enough to high lvl SH items then leave.
So really I personally am not worried about what this could do to any guild because the simple fact is, every person that gets booted from a guild for not donating enough is another possible recruit for my guild.
It may not be a competition to you, but I can bet you if there was an announcement for top influence donator of the week somewhere on the guild page, there will be an overall increase of people doing their daily influence for the guild. Seeing the leaderboard does not give them more time, it gives them more incentive.
If you still fail to see that, then you're blinded by your 'do what they can when they can' attitude. It's completely fine, but you should keep some of your opinions and comments to yourself.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
This tells me all I need to know about you , your guild and your motivations.
a. not donating/being lazy
b. shy of their resources or lack there of (and that's a problem in your entire community, nobody should ever be ashamed if they're broke)
c. not in a large/competitive guild
People who want more know what they sign up for. If they want a rapid pace, a more demanding environment, they know which guilds to join and they know they will need pitch in with the donations. As far as the idea goes, as a guild leader I don't care which dailies or how many people do, I generally expect people to at least do their daily influence on their mains, SH dailies and that's it. When AD donations are due we split everything between everyone and it's simple. I would like to reward players who actively do more than needed, so a general score or something would be nice. Don't be mistaken, most big guilds already vet donations and run either a spreadsheet or a detailed log. Not your cup of tea? Don't join a competitive guild. A chart IS needed, of any sort, at least to make lives easier on the guild's leadership.
Stop preaching about 'leaving guildies alone to do whatever they want and donate whatever they want', if this would be the case in all guilds no one would go anywhere and everything would take ages. QQ's about a certain approach being elitist, snob, horrible, dictatorship, big brother, we've heard it all. Don't like it? Don't join. And yes I'll confirm, people do more under the impression it's being checked. Remember homework back in school? They do something for themselves and the greater good by donating, they're not giving away a part of their soul to the devil.
Give the guilds that do want the option the ability to take it, if this is not something that's acceptable in other guilds then they should either ignore it or make it a leadership only view. There are ways around everything to make it balanced and fair for everyone.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
I will not give you my resume since this isn't the time or the place but I do know a thing or two about managing, especially large groups of people, and you can be as involved and as caring as you can be counting the numbers and reporting at the end of the day. It's not one way or another, it can be done together easily.
Gotta love how this "omg your guild checks donations? SHAME SHAME SHAME DICTATORSHIP CALL 911" became a thing. Suddenly a guild with requirements and set goals is mean, evil, treats the members poorly, etc. Exactly like how you made it sound like a mad idea when you mentioned a "sporting event" like it's a big bad thing. I would re-evaluate the situation in that case, it's time to open your eyes to a whole new world of elite =/- horrible. Not your playstyle? fine, but don't preach against it like it's a bad thing.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
1. How an info tool creates policy ? An info tool is an info tool, it's up to those that use it to create policy.
If a guild leader decides that he will kick everyone who wont donate their left kidney in 12 hours, it's their choice, you can't blame excel for being used to keep track of who has how many kidneys.
Tools can be used to help people compare & improve, and can also be used to kick and whatever. As with a lot of things it's up to the users to decide how they use it.
Should be ban ACT, it helps to measure players too ?!
Should we remove weapon enchants ? they differentiate people, those who have them are superior.
You think after almost 3 years playing I need a pain-giver chart to roughly judge a player ?!
I assure you I do not.
So after removing all measurement tools that can also easily help people to improve, and now we relay on educated guesses:
Should we disable custom channels ? I know of few that are specifically for high gear, or high skill.
Guilds too can be removed, as they provide a tool for creating subgroups...
Everything must be measured by it's benefit and risk, people die left and right from car accidents, but we still use those cars.
We try to minimize the risk and maximize the benefit. In this simple tool, people don't like the tool usage, they are free to move a guild.
My suggestion is that the tool must be part of the rank permissions, the guild leader must be able to set what ranks can see it and what can't.
And it should have full detail, what resource and amount, as a total per handle, per server week, per month, and a full total. A global total of marks is not useful.
2. Not only it's not a reasonable probability, it's a completely false statement, the probability for "no new player will be able to join a guild before he has done every campaign and has so much spare resources that he can afford being in a guild." is 0, nil, null, nothing. Guids are can be made for free, and over long term are bound to demand and supply, there are many of them, people free (in choice, if not in perceived price) to migrate, create new, or 'revolt'/unionize - I want to see a 'dictator' dictate when all the guild leaves... and spread the word..
3. I probably repeat myself (sorry), but don't put all guilds in one bin, all your worst fears in all people... I don't know by what you assume that everyone abuse everything, not everyone kicks on pain-giver, not every guild demands prices, not every guild ran by strict dictatorship, not everyone wants a tool like that to demote, punish or whatever.
If the least that I could do is send a guild mail with thanks to someone who contributed of his time / AD or whatever if by helping other run dungeons or farming influence or anything else, this is the least I want to be able to do, and I don't need some others bad experience in some other guilds to prevent me an easy way to do so.