So you think that a game that forces you to "cringe and deal with it" is in the right place? Thanks for proving our point. As you yourself stated, you got to "cringe and deal with it", which does not sound as a pleasant experience. Which is what a game should be instead: pleasant and fun.
Sounds more like "i'm a guy with too much free time, who cringed and dealth with it on 8 toons, as if it was some kind of job, so other players must do the same". You know, since we are "babies".
Thanks for proving our point that current system is simply alt-unfriendly and un-fun. Which is nt exactly good for a game.
Squeakers gonna squeak. Joke aside, $50 in exchange for something that takes a month or more to get, seems pretty reasonable. I've bought the available campaign completion packs for three of my alts on my other account and exchanged AD for zen for another one of my toons, which didn't take that long even without ever abusing an exploit / leadership army (farmed the boons on my main, of course).
Campaign completion packs on three atls= 50$*5*3= 750$ It seems reasonable to you that you must spend 750$ to just have the chance to play different toons/ classes in a game without farming the same stuff for around 140x3=420 hours. Considering that giving players the option to reasonably play different toons and classes in a game is a pretty basic feature.
I see here that some players either have too much free time, too much money or simply play games like some sort of job where you "cringe and deal with it" (what you usually do when you're forced into a HAMSTER job you have to endure to earn money for a living).
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
make foundry quests reward campaign currency.
thus people will do foundry q's to upgrade their stronghold + campaign boons.
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Squeakers gonna squeak. Joke aside, $50 in exchange for something that takes a month or more to get, seems pretty reasonable. I've bought the available campaign completion packs for three of my alts on my other account and exchanged AD for zen for another one of my toons, which didn't take that long even without ever abusing an exploit / leadership army (farmed the boons on my main, of course).
Campaign completion packs on three atls= 50$*5*3= 750$[...]
FYI: They're only available for Shar, DR, and IwD.
Not that I'd defend the pricing - at least not for single char unlocks. Were they account wide unlocks, I'd gladly buy them (with 20 chars...), which could be construed into some middle ground here. But as it is now this is IMHO another overpriced monetization attempt angled at the very-well-offs.
Don't get me totally wrong here, please: Thid thing here's monetization in a meaningful context - will the well-paid family dad like a game that unavoidably forces him to spend his rare quality time in infiniGrind(TM) over extended timespans, and hence never be able to catch up? Probably no. So a speed boost / bypass monetization - to allow these players on a low time budget to compete and keep up - is IMHO in principle OK. Just the price is way beyond my agreeability threshold...
You're right. 450$ then for 3 toons. I mean, to have the boons on 3 toons. It's 150$ each toon. But i see where the ones defending the current system want to go. Basically, a game made for those who either spend massive amounts of money or massive amounts of time. The others can, basically, stick with 1 toon ,1 class and usually not even fully develop it (BiS status).
It's not like i bought all the completion tokens, at once but over a period of 5-6 months. I'm a wrestling coach, i'm not earning that much. The three alts are my girlfriend's toons, i bought her the tokens because she does not have lots of time, due to her job. I farmed the boons on my main and exchanged AD to Zen for my 2nd char, like i said. I made it sound like i'm playing more than my two toons, my bad.
My opinion remains the same, though. $50 for such tedius tasks is ok. Compared to almost useless $30 mounts, for example.
It's not like i bought all the completion tokens, at once but over a period of 5-6 months. I'm a wrestling coach, i'm not earning that much. The three alts are my girlfriend's toons, i bought her the tokens because she does not have lots of time, due to her job. I farmed the boons on my main and exchanged AD to Zen for my 2nd char, like i said. I made it sound like i'm playing more than my two toons, my bad.
My opinion remains the same, though. $50 for such tedius tasks is ok. Compared to almost useless $30 mounts, for example.
I understand. But think about it for a minute: ghoulz66 wrote that he "cringed and dealt with it", you just wrote that it's a "tedious task". Sound a lot more like a job than a game. And why is it tedious? Cause you've already done it before. All of it. The first time you do the campaigns on a main, those are basically new zones so you take your time to explore them and even if it's a 1-2 month worth of repeating the same quests, it's doable cause it's still something new. Let's say farming is never too much fun, but when you're exploring a new zone with new enemies, it's not that bad. So you get through Sharandar, Dread ring and IWD on your main. Then after a while you think that hey, it would be fun to try another class. But. Sorry, if you want to fully develop another toon on the same account you must re-play the same campaigns from start to end. Or pay 150$ which is the equivalent of 1 year in a P2P MMORPG basically.
So what we have now is, basically this: "sorry dear customer, we will force you through something tedious that makes you cringe and endure, everytime you decide to try another class on a new toon, unless you pay us $150 each time you want to try another class/ play another toon".
Now don't you think it would be a lot better if you could actually ENJOY playing multiple toons and classes, instead of basically getting punished for doing it? And pay not to skip the game because it's tedious and makes you cringe, but pay because the game is so much fun that you pay to have extras= more of it?
For example, paying to have more character slots so you can create even more toons/ play even more classes because it's actually fun doing so? Wouldn't it be wonderful and perfectly in line with what a game should offer? Why people buy character slots now? To create passive Leadership/ profession armies. Do they buy slots to play multiple toons and classes? Nope, except few, rare cases of rich players. Because doing so means some insane amount of farming every time or 150$ per toon you decide to develop.
The fact that extra-toon slots are not used for their primary purpose (playing multiple classes/races/toons) but to create armies of slaves that only run professions, or BOTs, should tell you that something is wrong indeed...
Boons aren't the issue here. So you don't want to do the campaigns and enjoy the rest of the game because it's "tedious". Forget the AD rewards, the rare drops, the quests/lore/sights you must have missed, the fun of actually playing another class your way and the opportunity to meet players who are actually still enjoying the game.
Instead you want to skip to the end, where everyone plays a strict and defined role, so you can do the same skirmishes/dungeons with the rest of the zombie level 70 grinders, all day, every day so you gain that incremental +100 something stats from switching to t1/t2/t3, or until the next mod changes the current meta. You have a strange definition of fun.
At best I'd advocate a zen service that allowed something along the lines of partial boon progress swapping between characters, for those who have decided to change mains. Otherwise, a main is a main and an alt is an alt. If you're really an experienced player then you know which boons to get for your alts and which ones aren't worth the effort, at least until your alt matures or you decide to buy campaign progress.
Post edited by tyrtallow on
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Nope, i don't want to RE-do the solo campaigns over and over. I can enjoy playing a new class the way i want even just doing mini-dungeons here and there if i want, leveling it to 70 (you know, there's that part already even without the boon re-grind).
My idea of fun is going to run dungeons with friends or PvP here and there or do SH stuff with friends without being forced to re-grind the same solo content over and over again to re-acquire stuff i already grinded from start to end on my main, going through the same campaigns again and again and again.
Now if you like re-grinding the campaigns 200 times it's all good for you. But i also see other players defining it as tedious or saying they "cringed" to re-do the boons grinding.
Knowing which boons to pick up on an alt has nothing to do with the need to re-grind all the dailies over and over for all the 5 campaigns after you already completed them on your main.
I think running end-game stuff with friends, deciding each time which class you want to use if you create multiple toons, is more fun than re-farming the same solo campaigns. Re-farming the same stuff over and over sounds more like "zombie army" style then doing some PvP here and there or running dungeons with friends for fun with, for example, a different group every time.
Next module devs said each run will be different and both Underdark PvE and rewards will be dynamic (if i am not mistaken). I would love to have fun running dynamic content with multiple classes if developing alts was truly viable. But i'm sure you will have more fun re-farming the old campaigns again and again looking for some lore element you might have missed the first 10 times.
At best i'd advocate that zen store campaign unlocks should be account-wide and that the players who run all 5 campaigns from start to end through endless hours of grinding, collecting all the boons, get rewarded with said boons becoming account wide.
Or, at least, something like this:
You get all boons with main, the 1st alt gets all sharandar boons. You get all boons with 1st alt, the 2nd alt gets Sharandar and Dread Ring boons. You get all boons with 2nd alt, the 3rd alt gets Sharandar, Dread Ring and IWD boons.
And so on. So at least you feel rewarded and not punished for trying to play multiple toons and classes.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Maybe the campaign unlocks should be account-wide then?
I will never ever repeat the boon farming for any chars and thats one of thre reasons I only play one char. If I get bored of it, I just quit the game because farming all those boons once more is insane. And lets not talk about artifacts, companions and mounts for extra chars. I mean, wtf? This game is not made for multiple chars.
my only problem with companions is the 53 days you will need to grind ad to cap to get a green pet to purple.
you dont need purple companions to finish any dungeon. you dont need rank 12 bonding stones to finish dungeons. mounts are account wide if you purchase them. otherwise there are cheap purple mounts on the ah right now. and a basic mount costs a whopping 5g. half the events give out mounts. there just was one with the summer fest, and the winter fest will have another.
so that leaves artis. and purple artis are easy to make. especially if you have more than 1 char and are "gifted" sigils. so with 2 chars you get 3 free artis. 1 from the lvl 20 quest and 2 from the sigils. meaning you have to find/buy 1 more. thats not really all that hard. and again you dont need mythic lvl artis to complete any content in the game. could the RP costs be lower? sure.
the question is really. should you alts be as strong as your main the second you finish grinding to 70. and that answer is no.
Maybe the campaign unlocks should be account-wide then?
...not really, IMHO.
Though something like an incremental +10% reward bonus in each campaign for every char on the account that has completed this campaign would be really appreciated. Or rather +20% or even +25%, even +33% - because +rewards. So after five, four, or even three chars = +100%, the campaign "distance" would be halved. Like Recovery stat effect...
There IS a learning effect in Campaignistan. However, with each char, it's less meaningful, and hence more tedium.
...just my personal 2cts worth.
[Edit:] ...sez someone with >10 chars through the Shar & DR campaigns, most also through IwD, and no char ever will be worth the tedium of 80 times "Blood, toil, sweat, and Tia's"...
...also AD costs should be either abolished or earned from within the campaign rewards.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Only thing I can sympathize with you about is the ToD campaign. My OP hasn't even gotten to the 4th boon yet.
Maybe the campaign unlocks should be account-wide then?
Maybe they could introduce an account-wide campaign unlock in the ZEN shop, and also adjust the character based campaign unlock to a more reasonable level.
But other then that, i would be fine with making the campaign currencies account-wide... and that could be done with Underdark, when they make the Trade Bars account-wide too.
For me the problem is I'm going to be doing the same stuff on my main for stuff to build the stronghold as I would getting an alt through a campaign. So even if I want to take a break from my main and run an alt, I'm going to be doing exactly the same things. Yeah it'll be more challenging on an alt, and you'll be using different skills, but you go to the same places and kill the same mobs, just not as quickly as you would on a better equipped main character.
If we weren't by design forced to repeat the same content on our mains for stronghold building, yeah I might go "Hmm I haven't done Sharandar for a while, that'll be a change of pace, I know, my alt CW needs the boons there, might as well go there with that character" as it is I go "Ah that's my daily campaign done for stronghold for the day, time to log on an alt and do some boons, oh darn I just did those quests, now I have to do them again, but slower."
The fact is anyone who has the boons on one character and who helps out their guild by doing the grind for adventurer shards/campaign currency will have done every quest in those zones, dozens if not hundreds of times and is faced with having to do them forever for the stronghold. Doing it on an alt as well is like adding additional time to prison sentence.(Yeah, I know hyperbole).
I just can't see a light at the end of the tunnel. In Most MMOs older content becomes obsolete for older players as new content is released,played, mastered and enjoyed. Here the same content has risen from the grave and lumbers after us unrelenting in it's undead lust to hold us. We'll see how the HEs in Underdark help the situation, but every time I go to the mimic and see we need more Sharandar currency, I wince.
I've got no problem with people buying the campaign for alts, I completely understand the desire to skip content you've done. The problem is they want us to pay to skip content, we're still doing and will be for the forseeable future. They're asking us not to pay to skip content, merely to pay to reduce the number of times we have to endure it, but putting no new content in. OK we can build a Stronghold up, but what's the point if the only thing we can do is stuff that was released before the Stronghold,? We could do Sharandar/DR/IWDWoD before Strongholds, why are we building a base that only make old content more trivial?
Comments
Thanks for proving our point.
As you yourself stated, you got to "cringe and deal with it", which does not sound as a pleasant experience. Which is what a game should be instead: pleasant and fun.
Sounds more like "i'm a guy with too much free time, who cringed and dealth with it on 8 toons, as if it was some kind of job, so other players must do the same". You know, since we are "babies".
Thanks for proving our point that current system is simply alt-unfriendly and un-fun. Which is nt exactly good for a game.
It seems reasonable to you that you must spend 750$ to just have the chance to play different toons/ classes in a game without farming the same stuff for around 140x3=420 hours. Considering that giving players the option to reasonably play different toons and classes in a game is a pretty basic feature.
I see here that some players either have too much free time, too much money or simply play games like some sort of job where you "cringe and deal with it" (what you usually do when you're forced into a HAMSTER job you have to endure to earn money for a living).
thus people will do foundry q's to upgrade their stronghold + campaign boons.
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Not that I'd defend the pricing - at least not for single char unlocks. Were they account wide unlocks, I'd gladly buy them (with 20 chars...), which could be construed into some middle ground here. But as it is now this is IMHO another overpriced monetization attempt angled at the very-well-offs.
Don't get me totally wrong here, please: Thid thing here's monetization in a meaningful context - will the well-paid family dad like a game that unavoidably forces him to spend his rare quality time in infiniGrind(TM) over extended timespans, and hence never be able to catch up? Probably no. So a speed boost / bypass monetization - to allow these players on a low time budget to compete and keep up - is IMHO in principle OK. Just the price is way beyond my agreeability threshold...
It's 150$ each toon.
But i see where the ones defending the current system want to go. Basically, a game made for those who either spend massive amounts of money or massive amounts of time.
The others can, basically, stick with 1 toon ,1 class and usually not even fully develop it (BiS status).
It's not like i bought all the completion tokens, at once but over a period of 5-6 months. I'm a wrestling coach, i'm not earning that much. The three alts are my girlfriend's toons, i bought her the tokens because she does not have lots of time, due to her job. I farmed the boons on my main and exchanged AD to Zen for my 2nd char, like i said. I made it sound like i'm playing more than my two toons, my bad.
My opinion remains the same, though. $50 for such tedius tasks is ok. Compared to almost useless $30 mounts, for example.
But think about it for a minute: ghoulz66 wrote that he "cringed and dealt with it", you just wrote that it's a "tedious task".
Sound a lot more like a job than a game. And why is it tedious? Cause you've already done it before. All of it. The first time you do the campaigns on a main, those are basically new zones so you take your time to explore them and even if it's a 1-2 month worth of repeating the same quests, it's doable cause it's still something new.
Let's say farming is never too much fun, but when you're exploring a new zone with new enemies, it's not that bad.
So you get through Sharandar, Dread ring and IWD on your main. Then after a while you think that hey, it would be fun to try another class.
But.
Sorry, if you want to fully develop another toon on the same account you must re-play the same campaigns from start to end. Or pay 150$ which is the equivalent of 1 year in a P2P MMORPG basically.
So what we have now is, basically this: "sorry dear customer, we will force you through something tedious that makes you cringe and endure, everytime you decide to try another class on a new toon, unless you pay us $150 each time you want to try another class/ play another toon".
Now don't you think it would be a lot better if you could actually ENJOY playing multiple toons and classes, instead of basically getting punished for doing it?
And pay not to skip the game because it's tedious and makes you cringe, but pay because the game is so much fun that you pay to have extras= more of it?
For example, paying to have more character slots so you can create even more toons/ play even more classes because it's actually fun doing so? Wouldn't it be wonderful and perfectly in line with what a game should offer?
Why people buy character slots now? To create passive Leadership/ profession armies.
Do they buy slots to play multiple toons and classes? Nope, except few, rare cases of rich players. Because doing so means some insane amount of farming every time or 150$ per toon you decide to develop.
The fact that extra-toon slots are not used for their primary purpose (playing multiple classes/races/toons) but to create armies of slaves that only run professions, or BOTs, should tell you that something is wrong indeed...
So you don't want to do the campaigns and enjoy the rest of the game because it's "tedious". Forget the AD rewards, the rare drops, the quests/lore/sights you must have missed, the fun of actually playing another class your way and the opportunity to meet players who are actually still enjoying the game.
Instead you want to skip to the end, where everyone plays a strict and defined role, so you can do the same skirmishes/dungeons with the rest of the zombie level 70 grinders, all day, every day so you gain that incremental +100 something stats from switching to t1/t2/t3, or until the next mod changes the current meta.
You have a strange definition of fun.
At best I'd advocate a zen service that allowed something along the lines of partial boon progress swapping between characters, for those who have decided to change mains. Otherwise, a main is a main and an alt is an alt. If you're really an experienced player then you know which boons to get for your alts and which ones aren't worth the effort, at least until your alt matures or you decide to buy campaign progress.
I can enjoy playing a new class the way i want even just doing mini-dungeons here and there if i want, leveling it to 70 (you know, there's that part already even without the boon re-grind).
My idea of fun is going to run dungeons with friends or PvP here and there or do SH stuff with friends without being forced to re-grind the same solo content over and over again to re-acquire stuff i already grinded from start to end on my main, going through the same campaigns again and again and again.
Now if you like re-grinding the campaigns 200 times it's all good for you. But i also see other players defining it as tedious or saying they "cringed" to re-do the boons grinding.
Knowing which boons to pick up on an alt has nothing to do with the need to re-grind all the dailies over and over for all the 5 campaigns after you already completed them on your main.
I think running end-game stuff with friends, deciding each time which class you want to use if you create multiple toons, is more fun than re-farming the same solo campaigns.
Re-farming the same stuff over and over sounds more like "zombie army" style then doing some PvP here and there or running dungeons with friends for fun with, for example, a different group every time.
Next module devs said each run will be different and both Underdark PvE and rewards will be dynamic (if i am not mistaken). I would love to have fun running dynamic content with multiple classes if developing alts was truly viable. But i'm sure you will have more fun re-farming the old campaigns again and again looking for some lore element you might have missed the first 10 times.
At best i'd advocate that zen store campaign unlocks should be account-wide and that the players who run all 5 campaigns from start to end through endless hours of grinding, collecting all the boons, get rewarded with said boons becoming account wide.
Or, at least, something like this:
You get all boons with main, the 1st alt gets all sharandar boons.
You get all boons with 1st alt, the 2nd alt gets Sharandar and Dread Ring boons.
You get all boons with 2nd alt, the 3rd alt gets Sharandar, Dread Ring and IWD boons.
And so on. So at least you feel rewarded and not punished for trying to play multiple toons and classes.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
you dont need purple companions to finish any dungeon. you dont need rank 12 bonding stones to finish dungeons.
mounts are account wide if you purchase them. otherwise there are cheap purple mounts on the ah right now. and a basic mount costs a whopping 5g. half the events give out mounts. there just was one with the summer fest, and the winter fest will have another.
so that leaves artis. and purple artis are easy to make. especially if you have more than 1 char and are "gifted" sigils. so with 2 chars you get 3 free artis. 1 from the lvl 20 quest and 2 from the sigils. meaning you have to find/buy 1 more. thats not really all that hard. and again you dont need mythic lvl artis to complete any content in the game. could the RP costs be lower? sure.
the question is really. should you alts be as strong as your main the second you finish grinding to 70. and that answer is no.
Though something like an incremental +10% reward bonus in each campaign for every char on the account that has completed this campaign would be really appreciated. Or rather +20% or even +25%, even +33% - because +rewards. So after five, four, or even three chars = +100%, the campaign "distance" would be halved. Like Recovery stat effect...
There IS a learning effect in Campaignistan. However, with each char, it's less meaningful, and hence more tedium.
...just my personal 2cts worth.
[Edit:] ...sez someone with >10 chars through the Shar & DR campaigns, most also through IwD, and no char ever will be worth the tedium of 80 times "Blood, toil, sweat, and Tia's"...
...also AD costs should be either abolished or earned from within the campaign rewards.
But other then that, i would be fine with making the campaign currencies account-wide... and that could be done with Underdark, when they make the Trade Bars account-wide too.
If we weren't by design forced to repeat the same content on our mains for stronghold building, yeah I might go "Hmm I haven't done Sharandar for a while, that'll be a change of pace, I know, my alt CW needs the boons there, might as well go there with that character" as it is I go "Ah that's my daily campaign done for stronghold for the day, time to log on an alt and do some boons, oh darn I just did those quests, now I have to do them again, but slower."
The fact is anyone who has the boons on one character and who helps out their guild by doing the grind for adventurer shards/campaign currency will have done every quest in those zones, dozens if not hundreds of times and is faced with having to do them forever for the stronghold. Doing it on an alt as well is like adding additional time to prison sentence.(Yeah, I know hyperbole).
I just can't see a light at the end of the tunnel. In Most MMOs older content becomes obsolete for older players as new content is released,played, mastered and enjoyed. Here the same content has risen from the grave and lumbers after us unrelenting in it's undead lust to hold us.
We'll see how the HEs in Underdark help the situation, but every time I go to the mimic and see we need more Sharandar currency, I wince.
Some token to buy it, if you've completed it on one character already, which would then unlock it for all current and future toons.
Just an idea...
They're asking us not to pay to skip content, merely to pay to reduce the number of times we have to endure it, but putting no new content in.
OK we can build a Stronghold up, but what's the point if the only thing we can do is stuff that was released before the Stronghold,? We could do Sharandar/DR/IWDWoD before Strongholds, why are we building a base that only make old content more trivial?