Perma-Stealth Rogue...?

sh00termcl0vin · November 2015

ITC, smoke bomb and shocking execution are still broken. Rogues can still do 100k crits in stealth with SE taking out an entire health bar (had this happen to me with 2k tenacity and over 90k hp). ITC makes them a tank on a node and piercing damage is ridiculous in the fact that it ignores tenacity.

The good thing is most nub rogues don't realize this. However if you notice a rogue sitting in a smoke bomb throwing daggers at you while waiting for his ap bar to fill, odds are you've run across one of them.

yourenext2die · November 2015

How are they still broken, or broken at all for that matter? Smoke Bomb is no more broken than Icy Terrain and SB has a 17 sec cooldown. It works accordingly and shouldn't change. A TR has less weapon damage than anyone and we've already been nerfed in multiple areas, not to mention we're very squishy. Taking hits with SE at full health and taken out are few and far in between. Most TR's never use SE until your HP is at least down to half or more, or more often than not it's a waist. The piercing damage done is minimal at best. As for the 100% crit while in stealth, it still does less damage than most other people's attacks especially with the critical resistance with Tenacity now. TR's have been testing and hitting for even less power than a non crit hit because of it on occasion. Now it you get killed by a one shot from a TR that has a 3.6 IL score then well, take it with a grain of salt. It's happened to me from Ice Knife.

sh00termcl0vin · November 2015

An encounter power should not have the ability to negate all damage and grant 100% CC immunity. The cool down is irrelevant when you consider shady preparations resets the cool down on encounter powers if you go perma (which all rogues do now). As a daily this would be fair but not an encounter. Check the PC side of the boards if you want to try and argue this. Most rogues would agree that ITC in it's current state is broken because of the way it grants damage reduction (using deflection instead of flat damage reduction). This is akin to giving GWFs 100% deflection when going unstoppable or paladins having their god bubble as an encounter and not a daily.

As for shocking execution, that has been broken since day 1. It can and does one shot when at full health. It is supposed to be a finisher, yet I see and on my rogue have used this when a target is at full health (and my rogue is not a "3600" IL rogues). The only way to avoid this is to be around classes that have DR buffs like clerics and paladins or have a well timed dodge (ie. not stunned). If you are caught without these, without stamina, or without a dodge move (GWF being a prime example) you will either be one shot or have 80% of your health taken in one hit. Piercing damage is the primary cause of this and is NOT minimal, as the only time you will ever use SE is in stealth (ala perma). An easy fix would be to make SE not gain any benefit from piercing and act like a GFs anvil (don't even get me started on that).

Lastly smoke bomb by itself is not a problem. This goes more to the general vein of a PVP team stacking rogues so you can have perma smoke down by cycling between two rogues. This problem is compounded even further when you have an HR using micro stuns on a target until it is dead. If you look at all the cheap PVP comps out there the worst consist of HR rogue comps. You may as well put your controller down because even a mediocre HR rogue team is very difficult to beat if they just node hop. Diminishing returns would seem the logical way to go, but that's a complaint for another thread. Rogues as a class are not completely broken like they were in mod 5, but I do I think they do need to be some changes. The 1 dimensional play style right now however (cloud of steel, ITC, smoke bombe, SS, SE) is definitely broken because it abuses the above mentioned game mechanics that are also broken (ie. stuns). When you have everyone using the same encounter powers, paragon path, and feats because it is overpowered, therein lies the problem.

armadeonx · November 2015

Speaking as a non-tr player I think TRs are much more balanced this mod but pretty much agree with Shooter.

I'd like to see two changes, both of which have been suggested numerous times:

1. If you attack at all you lose stealth, not 4 knife throws - just 1. If you are going to attack then commit, don't be a wuss with your 3 draggers relying on enchantment bonus damage to drop the opponent. Actually FIGHT them!
2. Diminishing returns/cap on stuns - once a player hits 'x' seconds of stun they become immune for 'y' seconds.

Of course I recognise that some class builds can usually only be dropped by stunning - healer tank DC being the prime example but I think it's fair a defensive class requires more than one enemy to drop them - otherwise they aren't really defensive. Gaps in their immunities (e.g. OP & GF relying on stamina) are the best weaknesses there.

deathbringer · November 2015

For those complaining about how OP the TR is, which since MOD6 it most certainly is not, have you not come up against the actual OP HR's? If you play against an HR now, you would be happy to go against a TR lol

yourenext2die · November 2015

armadeonx said:
Speaking as a non-tr player I think TRs are much more balanced this mod but pretty much agree with Shooter.

I'd like to see two changes, both of which have been suggested numerous times:

1. If you attack at all you lose stealth, not 4 knife throws - just 1. If you are going to attack then commit, don't be a wuss with your 3 draggers relying on enchantment bonus damage to drop the opponent. Actually FIGHT them!
2. Diminishing returns/cap on stuns - once a player hits 'x' seconds of stun they become immune for 'y' seconds.

Of course I recognise that some class builds can usually only be dropped by stunning - healer tank DC being the prime example but I think it's fair a defensive class requires more than one enemy to drop them - otherwise they aren't really defensive. Gaps in their immunities (e.g. OP & GF relying on stamina) are the best weaknesses there.

Stealth is the only thing that keeps a TR competitive. If you take away stealth upon first contact then we should have a considerable boost in weapon and at will damage and lower our 17-20 sec encounter cool down rates.

deathbringer · November 2015

^^This. Without the ability to stealth the class would be virtually useless. Which since this forum is full of TR haters, I'm sure you would all love. Each class has things that make them viable and useful in PvP, take those things away from any class and they are not worth playing. Are there some things that could use a tweak here and there? Sure. But the TR is not one of the things that needs "fixing". It was nerfed to the ground with MOD6, and now only the best of the best TR's can actually PvP effectively. There are far bigger issues in PvP than the TR's at this point. So all you TR haters, get your heads out of "there", and just play the game.

sh00termcl0vin · November 2015

I don't think taking away stealth is the right answer. Stealth is fine as it is. What needs to go is piercing damage applying to shocking execution and ITC god mode. Cloud of steel doing high damage is problematic, but I think that could easily be fixed by taking some damage away and shifting it back to encounter powers (not lashing blade).

A finisher should be just that, not a "One shot from full health". Also ITC needs it's DR calculation changed to just flat damage resist from 100% deflection. This is why you end up with super rogue tank just long enough for stealth to come back, then rinse and repeat.

meliboo · November 2015

TR's are now perfectly fine and are not a problem in PvP. Only BiS TR's can pretty much play the class really well. So if you can't beat one TR in a PvP match, then that is just bad luck. Maybe get better gear. Granted I am an HR, and I know my class is broken. But for some reason everyone is still all over the TR's, even though they were hit hard in MOD6 and are barely viable in PvP unless geared out completely.

yourenext2die · November 2015

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sh00termcl0vin · November 2015

@meliboo#4082

Barely viable? Apparently you are playing a different game then me. A MI sabateur rogue with decent gear not bis can still 1 shot with very little skill needed (just have to get a smoke bomb down so your target can't dodge, stealth and then SE). HRs have an easy time against any class at present except for maybe gwfs during unstoppable. I agree the class underperforms without this setup. Like I said encounter powers need to be buffed, and SE changed so it is not effected by piercing bonuses.

ITC is way too powerful in its present state. I don't need to reiterate why. Check the pc side of the forums where bis rogues admit to this very fact. All I'm saying is balance changes need to be made not nerfs. Also scoundrel definately needs a rework after mod 5 gutted it without compensating elsewhere.

meliboo · November 2015

I have not seen a TR 1 shot since MOD5, unless someone was really low health. And I play at least 15-20 PvP matches a day. But maybe I am just missing something since I destroy all with my HR haha

yourenext2die · November 2015

sh00termcl0vin said:
@meliboo#4082

ITC is way too powerful in its present state.

It only lasts for about 4 seconds before it goes on a 17 sec cool down. I can break away from CC initially but if you catch me a second time seconds afterward without an Artifact power to break away then I'm stuck.

yourenext2die · November 2015

meliboo#4082 said:
I have not seen a TR 1 shot since MOD5, unless someone was really low health. And I play at least 15-20 PvP matches a day. But maybe I am just missing something since I destroy all with my HR haha

I still one shot on occasion and I'm no where near BIS. As for your comment regarding TR's being "barely viable" well, lols. I pretty much dominate just about everything that isn't premade in PVP outside of a few tough players here and there. After the reset of stats from the mod drop my stats are 68-kills to 9 deaths so I hardly call that "barely viable" and half of those death could've been avoided had I not of kept fighting multiple players at once holding onto a node before help came. I could've easily stealthed away to obtain more health.

Perma-Stealth Rogue...?

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