dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
The HR's special advantage is the ability to switch between two sets of encounter powers. Trapper is the only path that properly leverages this, so Trapper is the One True Path. It's not that Trapper is too powerful; it's that the other paths are designed wrong.
Simply put, even though the class already had one page-one rewrite, it needs another one. The idea of being a melee HR or archery HR is simply wrongheaded and DOA. Playing that way is like playing a CW who puts nothing in his fourth encounter slot or a TR who never uses stealth. All three paths need to be built around stance switching with their focus being placed elsewhere. The obvious choices are a DPS path and a survival path; the third could be a hybrid, control or some other support role.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
The more I read this guy the more he show he has no clue about his toon. You have 2 encounters that they basically make you jump to your opponent and you have more skills to root your opponent and daze him. All 3 paths can daze/interrupt with the roots, if trappers use them the most its because they also deal a lot of damage if you are a trapper. The fact that you are talking as the HR has always have to be on melee stances just show that you have choose the wrong class, the combat HR can get a lot of benefits from range stance while remaining mostly on melee. You can use fox cunning for buff you and your party with dodges to be able to get closer without getting damage, then switch to combat and use the same encounter to just jump to your opponent, you then hit him with hindering strike that WILL!! daze him and interrupt him even when you aren't a trapper, once he is rooted you can just smash him with plant growth (strongest hitting skill) and make him unable to move keep him on melee for a bit longer, onces that is done if he try to run from your melee figth you can switch back to range and use hindering or cordon to make him stop again and probably by that time the range form of fox is rdy again to buff you with more dodges and if you still can't catch him once your fox buff is over just do some shift and most probably by that time all your melee encounters are out of CD again so you can do fox-->hindering-->plant. So, if you consider that you CAN dodge, you HAVE the highest life steal % with the rigth feats and you CAN daze with one melee encounter and have 3 charges on the range stance for quick interruptions then you have ton of tools as a combat HR, moreover I didnt even include the slayer mark daily that just make you jump from long distance to your opponent. Basically, if you can't make your combat HR to be playable is because you don't know how to play it. If what you want is just run, deal lot of damage and figth just melee you have to make a GWF not a HR, the basic mechanic of a HR is the ability to switch from range to melee, at the moment you decide to use just one of them you are crippling yourself. Archers can use the melee encounters too if they get catch up by the opponent and marauders is on CD and deal a lot more of damage than just using their at-will, those HRs that prefer to use only the bow even when the opponent is at close combat are playing wrong and crippling their toons too.
To sumarize, if you decide to not use the TAB mechanic on any class and then complain because your class seem weak to you then is not a class problem, its you that have the problem.
Never played HR actively, but I've ran some T2 dungeons with some that had good control and good DPS at the same time. I don't recall all of them having astronomical gear scores. I've ran some T1s with HRs that were just awful. Probably spec'ed wrong and were clueless on what to do besides hide and fire arrows. It does look like a complicated class to play.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
How can I get close before GWF and SW already cleared the path.
1. Marauder's Rush
How can I efficiently evade AoE without Sprint.
1. Marauder's Escape 2. Fox cunning 3. Press shift once or twice.
Inefficient. Thanks for pointing it out. Not wasting more time with the class. With shift you dodge completely an AoE? At least it can bee good played ranged.
x blinxon: Both buffs through Feats. Renegade Capstone is unreliable (it provide diverse buffs, sometimes you don't need the Heal for example, sometimes you need it provide something different) and Renegade is still less efficient in CC.
x sangrine: Bosses matters the most, I agree on that. It should be dealt by developers if they want to fix that tree (just apply all buffs should be enough eventually). To me it's the only deal breaker.
I dearly hope nobody takes you seriously when it comes to how to play CW. You can believe what you like, facts point in different directions through testing.
Never played HR actively, but I've ran some T2 dungeons with some that had good control and good DPS at the same time. I don't recall all of them having astronomical gear scores. I've ran some T1s with HRs that were just awful. Probably spec'ed wrong and were clueless on what to do besides hide and fire arrows. It does look like a complicated class to play.
It can be complicated. Twice as many encounters (essentially) to manage and know which to use for a given situation.
As for the topic, I haven't played the combat tree yet, but given the range of melee encounters I use regularly, I don't see how the OP could have such a problem. The class is designed to always switch, regardless of tree used. I learned this with great difficulty when I was archer spec. Use a lot of powers to get in close, fight and as they run, hold them down with ranged, rinse and repeat. Combat is not as far off from trapper, it just doesn't have the daze and root boosts.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Never played HR actively, but I've ran some T2 dungeons with some that had good control and good DPS at the same time. I don't recall all of them having astronomical gear scores. I've ran some T1s with HRs that were just awful. Probably spec'ed wrong and were clueless on what to do besides hide and fire arrows. It does look like a complicated class to play.
All those bad HRs I come by lack vorpals, I don't even recall them using Gordon of arrows.
The biggest trick with the melee tree is ironicly to keep changing stance out of melee, you massively improve your dps etc if you sitch back and forth between a range stance and melee, read the descriptions for jebeezs sake. You vastly increase DPS percentages when you do so.
If I give you 200 dps per shot every 2 sec., and I give you 200 dps per swing every 2 sec. your dps is 100sec. BUT if you change stance and you get a boost of 5% or 10% etc AND you get a boost in resistances while doing so, why sit in 1 spot and keep potting or swinging? Change stance and get 110 or 120sec and less taken dmg!
The SW don't get that option, 1 tree is totally designed on LS skill, when they made it a random/crit/proc thing instead of a % return thing they nerfed that tree to dirt.
The other tree is based on vampiric stuff and exploding curses, same thing, it's based off LS once again, you can't count on it proccing enough to let you live long enough to syphon off health.
The only viable tree currently is the Pet driven tree, your pet keeps the agro off you to keep you alive while you DoT them up, once you hit the tree cap skill your pet becomes a huge tanker, so much it can steal agro from party. The problem (until this patch perhaps) is the pet tended to lag behind and get stuck on features, so when you needed him to tank for you he was MIA.
The biggest advantage a HR has over a SW (even outside the trapper tree) is his roots and slows etc. far outstrip a SW roots, the SW roots un-root on second hit, that's why they are called templocks. The second afvantage a HR has over the SW is the HR's dodge ACTUALLY dodges, and he get 3 for a stamina charge. The SW gets 1 (2 if specs) for a charge and it don't actually mitigate dmg, nor dodge speed him up. Even despite it's name and description leading you to believe it would..shadow stepping indeed
Are you talking about Aspect of the Serpent? I call that a stupid unwelcome annoyance more than a Class Feature... thanks to bring that out too. But you must not read me... How can I get close before GWF and SW already cleared the path? How can I efficiently evade AoE without Sprint? Deflect don't work, Life Steal don't mitigate anything if you get one/two-shotted you are just dead no time to recover.
Slow in party environment is less important than Daze (TR) or Prone (GWF). SW don't need to dodge, unlike CW he don't need to stay close to freeze mobs. It can let GF, GWF and CW take all the aggro.
Obviously I agree about 1 tree completely broken for the SW, but I suppose Combat is in the same water... not only by watching at its Feats and mechanics but talking with friends Trappers too; they say it isn't viable at all in PVE and it isn't competitive in PVP anymore.
x blinxon: You are wrong about Oppressor. About soloing not a single problem, you froze costantly foes. In party it buffs party members DPS (Frigid Winds, Controlled Momentum) and CC better than Thaum and Renegade. Only problem is the boss unaffected by 'Frozen', without party DPS boost it's just weak there.
SW (Hellbringer Fury) DPS is in the same range of GWF, above HR and TR.
TL;DR
I read up to this post and now I think you're just trolling. theFabricant had it right .. every class has a path that isnt optimal and one that is. Posting just to get attention is not useful to the community.
Aspect of the Serpent is a cornerstone of Trapper builds. It is one of the most useful class features we have. Crushing roots and Lone wolf swap in and out on my bar depending on the CC i need - serpent never leaves.
My HR leads the group. I use crushing roots and daze the mobs as my party is closing with aggro pulls (thanks tank!) and more CC and damage (thanks CW's!). (btw, I dont have a choice to lose the aggro - GF has waaaay more threat than I do).
Again, most of the community is well aware that Cryptic has a *ton* on their plate right now and that these little things like "a tree that didnt quite work out as well as they intended" are still left out there waiting for fixes. Give them a break, they are fixing game breaking and massively game changing problems that have been around a lot longer than you have. We need to be a little more patient and allow them the space to get things done as fast as *they* can not as fast as we want.
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
x blinxon: Both buffs through Feats. Renegade Capstone is unreliable (it provide diverse buffs, sometimes you don't need the Heal for example, sometimes you need it provide something different) and Renegade is still less efficient in CC.
and the winning begin the OP basicaly say: buff my class and nerf others. same of the same...nice trick /sarcasm on
I think you read nothing about OP. OP says he knows nothing about the class and that by reading its Feats he don't even want to put to test it.
As further clarified by dheffernan the class require technique to be mastered otherwise you get a fried chicken. Moreover one tree is just dead, the Combat one.
Not for me, that's all. Also unappealing, to me. End.
x tomiotar: If almost no one plays the Combat tree there must be a reason, if all says it's weak there must be a reason... etc. Happy to know that you are a killer with it... yes. :*
The reason is very simple and is the reason because I play as a trapper. Trapper deals more damage and it also have very good survability all together while combat is all about having a better survability but lower damage. As I've told you before if you a just want a melee figther you have to roll a GWF not HR. If you still want to go with a combat HR at least you have to learn how to play it before saying that it need a buff, because that build is working perfectly WAI.
Basically, combat HR move balance from damage to survability giving the option to choose the way you want to play your class. You are asking to put altogether the highest damage, the highest survability and the control on the same tree but HR works as if you want the top single damage you go Archer, if you want the higher survability you go combat and if you want a good balanace of everything you go trapper. Being the better balanced and not being particularly weak on damage nor survability most of the people choose trapper, but that doenst mean that others paths aren't good options while SWs depend on a broken feat to be succesfull.
For the OP. HR is not for you ant start out of the box and be BIS. It is a class that requires a lot to play and testing things to see what works for you . You will respect and change things over the life of the Build no matter what and if specked correctly trapper is a fun class to play I started archery then to combat. Combat is ok but you will be doing what,t the Trapper tree was setup to do to play combat so go trapper to get all bonuses. I play trapper and around 2.3kIl things start to work for you.
And SW can match the DPS from a GWF? Maybe i play a different game...
My SW can, though he is pretty damn decked out...
yeah... maybe the game dont have a perfect balance between main strikers, but sometimes i feel that you have in this forum some players that still don't dominate 100% a certain build trying compare classes through personal performances.
HR is in a pretty decent state right now, when it comes to the Trapper tree. It's good damage once geared, and excellent in the CC-department, if you use the right rotation. No problems there.
You ask whether your dodge can evade a complete AoE? Yes, it can. Our dodge gives us - like every other dodge - immunity frames. If timed correctly, a single short dodge during the landing of an AoE will make us immune to the damage. You don't actually have to dodge all the way out of the red zone to make use of the immunity frames. Of course, then there's always Fox's Cunning, for a 'ghetto dodge', and Fox Shift - the melee slashy slashy part - provides you with complete damage immunity while you're attacking.
You say Deflect and Lifesteal wont keep you alive? A combat HR is generally at the same range (stuck in the fight) as any other melee character or a Trapper HR. If you're having trouble surviving, either consider you're just terrible at positioning - TR's, other HR's, GWF's, etc. don't die like flies - or that you're just not correctly geared.
Right now, everyone and their mother has gone Trapper, and there hasn't been an interesting development in the Combat HR department in a while. This is partly because of the discontinuing of Royal Guard, which made the Stormwarden Combat build with Blade Storm quite the performer in PvE. Yeah, the Combat Tree is the red-headed stepchild tree. However, in some of your posts you seem to conflate Combat with HR in general, like your complete misunderstanding of dodges.
HR is fine.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
Nope, Oppressor is very good. I played it with great success both in PVP and PVE. It's only problem is it can't DPS Bosses (but still is a good debuffer and very good mobs controller)..
Opresser is very good in PVE? Untrue. And SW can match the DPS from a GWF? Maybe i play a different game...
In TOS/eCC preclear an SB damnation SW can keep up with GWF but no other dps class could.
In lol/Tiamat or by bosses. No way!
Edit: Oh. Any SW eliminate GWFs with fabled set by WoD dragons...
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
You complaining because a controller/dps does less damage then a pure dps class? don't get me wrong, GWF probably does more damage then it should, but both gwf and sw should still likely do more damage then hr anyhow. I am fine with my CW dealing less damage then a properly played gwf, because my CW isn't a pure dps class the way a gwf is.
It is not "fine".
And there is no such thing as "pure dps" class. There are classes with dps options. Even GF/DC have good dps options.
DPS classes should balance to have 10-20% difference in dmg tops. Right now GW/SWs do 2-2,5 times better dmg in T2s than HR/TR/CW with same gear...
A Hunter Ranger who's specced and slotted Crushing Roots can, with the right rotation, keep mobs in place and dazed for a long time.
It's a little more involved than with an Oppressor feated CW with Icy Veins, who can just smack down Icy Terrain and freeze stuff, but it works.
Also, you don't have to keep the mobs dazed full time. Your roots and dazes are generally always available, when you keep cycling encounters, so you watch for the baddies telegraphing a big hit or if they're broadcasting a red zone. Smack some roots on them, and they'll stop with that sillyness. Disrupting Shot will even daze the big, bad Golems in ELOL/ESOT.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
x thefabricant: I hope they avoid your nonsense about ECC easy with 2k party. You can avoid mine threads completely and focus on yours, I'll do the same. Deal.
Firstly, I have updated my build as new changes have been made and as I have tested and discovered new things.
Secondly, I have actually comprehensively tested everything related to the devotion paragon and posted my explanations to all the choices I have made. Furthermore, if you ask me, or the people I have tested with, for ACT parses proving why we went a certain way, we can back up our claims comprehensively. It doesn't look like you have done any research at all, simply saying "this is the way I like to build my character" without justifying why you are guiding players to build a character this way. If you look in my guide, every power is given an explanation and weighed up, explaining what they do and why I chose each one. This leads to issue 3.
Issue 3 is that your guide is painfully obviously wrong, if you actually tested all the different abilities, you would find that bear your sins (T4 righteous feat) is far better then the choice you made. Not choosing it shows the lack of testing you have performed as all truly dedicated dc players I know who go righteous, end up ultimately taking that feat. That is one of the painfully obvious signs that the guide is probably not one to follow, if you know something about the class when you assessing a guide for it.
Fourthly, You do not bother to divulge optimal gear choices or stat choices, nor do you explain optimal race or even why the choices you have made are optimal. You simply say..."this is the way to go" What boons should people use, what stats? Nowhere in your guides are these things covered.
Fifthly, you are outright vague in your guide, I quote, "In PVE you can do what you like" and for a guide, you cannot afford to be vague, you need to be concise and tell people what you think and why you think it. You are not guiding people here, you are losing them.
This is consistent across all your guides and all your posts in all the places I have found them. You simply write something and say, "do it this way" without actually explaining your choices. It seems that you are more concerned with the quantity of content you put out, rather then the quality. We don't need 50000 threads made by you saying "do this, do that" when you could write 1 good thread, with effort put into it, that conveys far more. If you like, I could break down each and every one of your guides and explain with reference to ACT why they are all fundamentally flawed, you cannot test for 5 minutes, as it seems you have been doing and come up with concrete evidence to support a particular choice, build development takes days.
Oh God this one is really a pain in the HAMSTER. Haven't you got a girlfriend to molest? Only Neverwinter for you?
It's a pity forums haven't got ignore list. If it have someone tell me please!
Its really easy to attack someone else rather then their argument, especially when you are painfully wrong. Doesn't make what I said any less valid though and its petty from you.
Also, nobody benefits from playing a class in an inferior way, when there are guides like zergs for CW, or better guides for dc, which are actually comprehensive.
Comments
Simply put, even though the class already had one page-one rewrite, it needs another one. The idea of being a melee HR or archery HR is simply wrongheaded and DOA. Playing that way is like playing a CW who puts nothing in his fourth encounter slot or a TR who never uses stealth. All three paths need to be built around stance switching with their focus being placed elsewhere. The obvious choices are a DPS path and a survival path; the third could be a hybrid, control or some other support role.
To sumarize, if you decide to not use the TAB mechanic on any class and then complain because your class seem weak to you then is not a class problem, its you that have the problem.
I've ran some T1s with HRs that were just awful. Probably spec'ed wrong and were clueless on what to do besides hide and fire arrows.
It does look like a complicated class to play.
2. Fox cunning
3. Press shift once or twice.
Inefficient. Thanks for pointing it out. Not wasting more time with the class. With shift you dodge completely an AoE? At least it can bee good played ranged.
x blinxon: Both buffs through Feats. Renegade Capstone is unreliable (it provide diverse buffs, sometimes you don't need the Heal for example, sometimes you need it provide something different) and Renegade is still less efficient in CC.
x sangrine: Bosses matters the most, I agree on that. It should be dealt by developers if they want to fix that tree (just apply all buffs should be enough eventually). To me it's the only deal breaker.
I dearly hope nobody takes you seriously when it comes to how to play CW. You can believe what you like, facts point in different directions through testing.
As for the topic, I haven't played the combat tree yet, but given the range of melee encounters I use regularly, I don't see how the OP could have such a problem. The class is designed to always switch, regardless of tree used. I learned this with great difficulty when I was archer spec. Use a lot of powers to get in close, fight and as they run, hold them down with ranged, rinse and repeat. Combat is not as far off from trapper, it just doesn't have the daze and root boosts.
I read up to this post and now I think you're just trolling. theFabricant had it right .. every class has a path that isnt optimal and one that is. Posting just to get attention is not useful to the community.
Aspect of the Serpent is a cornerstone of Trapper builds. It is one of the most useful class features we have. Crushing roots and Lone wolf swap in and out on my bar depending on the CC i need - serpent never leaves.
My HR leads the group. I use crushing roots and daze the mobs as my party is closing with aggro pulls (thanks tank!) and more CC and damage (thanks CW's!). (btw, I dont have a choice to lose the aggro - GF has waaaay more threat than I do).
Again, most of the community is well aware that Cryptic has a *ton* on their plate right now and that these little things like "a tree that didnt quite work out as well as they intended" are still left out there waiting for fixes. Give them a break, they are fixing game breaking and massively game changing problems that have been around a lot longer than you have. We need to be a little more patient and allow them the space to get things done as fast as *they* can not as fast as we want.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
We cant argue about that
Basically, combat HR move balance from damage to survability giving the option to choose the way you want to play your class. You are asking to put altogether the highest damage, the highest survability and the control on the same tree but HR works as if you want the top single damage you go Archer, if you want the higher survability you go combat and if you want a good balanace of everything you go trapper. Being the better balanced and not being particularly weak on damage nor survability most of the people choose trapper, but that doenst mean that others paths aren't good options while SWs depend on a broken feat to be succesfull.
HR is in a pretty decent state right now, when it comes to the Trapper tree. It's good damage once geared, and excellent in the CC-department, if you use the right rotation. No problems there.
You ask whether your dodge can evade a complete AoE? Yes, it can. Our dodge gives us - like every other dodge - immunity frames. If timed correctly, a single short dodge during the landing of an AoE will make us immune to the damage. You don't actually have to dodge all the way out of the red zone to make use of the immunity frames. Of course, then there's always Fox's Cunning, for a 'ghetto dodge', and Fox Shift - the melee slashy slashy part - provides you with complete damage immunity while you're attacking.
You say Deflect and Lifesteal wont keep you alive? A combat HR is generally at the same range (stuck in the fight) as any other melee character or a Trapper HR. If you're having trouble surviving, either consider you're just terrible at positioning - TR's, other HR's, GWF's, etc. don't die like flies - or that you're just not correctly geared.
Right now, everyone and their mother has gone Trapper, and there hasn't been an interesting development in the Combat HR department in a while. This is partly because of the discontinuing of Royal Guard, which made the Stormwarden Combat build with Blade Storm quite the performer in PvE. Yeah, the Combat Tree is the red-headed stepchild tree. However, in some of your posts you seem to conflate Combat with HR in general, like your complete misunderstanding of dodges.
HR is fine.
In lol/Tiamat or by bosses. No way!
Edit: Oh. Any SW eliminate GWFs with fabled set by WoD dragons...
And there is no such thing as "pure dps" class.
There are classes with dps options. Even GF/DC have good dps options.
DPS classes should balance to have 10-20% difference in dmg tops.
Right now GW/SWs do 2-2,5 times better dmg in T2s than HR/TR/CW with same gear... like run reds and spam right click?
And you should check HRs cc in pvp as well!
devs should take inspiration from this
It's a little more involved than with an Oppressor feated CW with Icy Veins, who can just smack down Icy Terrain and freeze stuff, but it works.
Also, you don't have to keep the mobs dazed full time. Your roots and dazes are generally always available, when you keep cycling encounters, so you watch for the baddies telegraphing a big hit or if they're broadcasting a red zone. Smack some roots on them, and they'll stop with that sillyness. Disrupting Shot will even daze the big, bad Golems in ELOL/ESOT.
Holy HAMSTER!
That guy has insane skills...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/564392/devoted-cleric-divine-oracle-righteous-pvp-pve-build
To one of mine, lets say my paladin build guide:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1195336/by-the-light-sharpedges-devotion-op-pve-guide/p1
We can see a few things:
Firstly, I have updated my build as new changes have been made and as I have tested and discovered new things.
Secondly, I have actually comprehensively tested everything related to the devotion paragon and posted my explanations to all the choices I have made. Furthermore, if you ask me, or the people I have tested with, for ACT parses proving why we went a certain way, we can back up our claims comprehensively. It doesn't look like you have done any research at all, simply saying "this is the way I like to build my character" without justifying why you are guiding players to build a character this way. If you look in my guide, every power is given an explanation and weighed up, explaining what they do and why I chose each one. This leads to issue 3.
Issue 3 is that your guide is painfully obviously wrong, if you actually tested all the different abilities, you would find that bear your sins (T4 righteous feat) is far better then the choice you made. Not choosing it shows the lack of testing you have performed as all truly dedicated dc players I know who go righteous, end up ultimately taking that feat. That is one of the painfully obvious signs that the guide is probably not one to follow, if you know something about the class when you assessing a guide for it.
Fourthly, You do not bother to divulge optimal gear choices or stat choices, nor do you explain optimal race or even why the choices you have made are optimal. You simply say..."this is the way to go" What boons should people use, what stats? Nowhere in your guides are these things covered.
Fifthly, you are outright vague in your guide, I quote, "In PVE you can do what you like" and for a guide, you cannot afford to be vague, you need to be concise and tell people what you think and why you think it. You are not guiding people here, you are losing them.
This is consistent across all your guides and all your posts in all the places I have found them. You simply write something and say, "do it this way" without actually explaining your choices. It seems that you are more concerned with the quantity of content you put out, rather then the quality. We don't need 50000 threads made by you saying "do this, do that" when you could write 1 good thread, with effort put into it, that conveys far more. If you like, I could break down each and every one of your guides and explain with reference to ACT why they are all fundamentally flawed, you cannot test for 5 minutes, as it seems you have been doing and come up with concrete evidence to support a particular choice, build development takes days.
Also, nobody benefits from playing a class in an inferior way, when there are guides like zergs for CW, or better guides for dc, which are actually comprehensive.