I dont have a lot of characters and they dont get much ad leadership is essential to us who dont have 100's of characters, prehaps a better way to do this would be to limit the number of A accounts you can have to stop people exploiting AD. B to limit the amount of characters you can have the leadership skill on to say 10. I don't think rix's dailys should be removed I like them even though the rewards are not that great. I do agree that you should lose the ad refining but it could be there to limit the amount gold sellers can refine maybe thats it's for. The thing to tackle in game is people who exploit so many accounts to farm ad to me this is not right at all i'd make it 2 accounts per IP/computer. I only have 1 account and 5 characters I think as I think making more to farm ad is very wrong. I would like to see the ability to put AD in your personal bank like gold so you can transfer it to your other characters. They could implement a methord that would prevent bots I can think of a few 2 stage methords that would randomly change all the time to stop them adapting.
The thing to tackle in game is people who exploit so many accounts to farm ad to me this is not right at all i'd make it 2 accounts per IP/computer.
And this would hurt me as a legitimate player. I log on to more than one account (or even 2) from my IP/PC. One is my brothers, the other is my fiances. I mainly do it to help her invoke or with gear/leveling or whatever. I help my little brother who is quite young and has no clue where to put his points so his character is decent and the game is enjoyable. None of that is farming at all though. Problem is here that basically no matter what you do it will hurt legitimate players one way or another.
I said it quite often, i dislike leadership. It just doesnt make any sense to me, why the payoff is so high, that I cant reach it by playing. I gave once the example of a buddy with 50 chars, he makes 600+k each day, with not maxed leadership. The time to set it up is 2 hours per day. I play 8+ hours and have my 24k from refinement + some ad from what i get through the day, counted together maybe ~100k. Just frustrating. I think the BoP and no real farmoptions at 70 just increases the problem. The chances for Artifact gear in dungeon is very low, i run around 15-25 dungeons daily, most days i dont see a single piece. And to see an artifact, well very low chance. As a no-leadership-army-user the only time you make good amounts of ad, will be by getting an artifact, though with the very very low chance, it wont happen often. The BoP and the removal of dropping gear/endgamegear also adds to the problem. Ofc there is even more, like the removal of lord neverembers ad quests and the cutting of IwD heroics and the nerfing of the dragon hoard. All of them add to the problem in some way. But i dont have my high hope that this will ever change, devs dont care and their bosses care even less
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited September 2015
While I agree with the point of this thread overall, I do not think it's gonna happen. AD whales with alt armies shoot up the ZAX exchange towards the cap and beyond generating a monstrous backlog. Those without the alt armies then either wait several days for their zen (I waited 1 week for one runic bag of holding) or pay PWE real cash to get it immediately. In addition, with the ZAX cap, players who pay cash to convert ZEN to AD get less AD from their money than they would if the cap was not there, hence they have to pay more. I do not see this changing anytime soon, this is just another way of milking the cow.
As a fairly new player, to me it seems that the current economy of the game is through the roof and have created a hostile economic environment for newcommers to the game.
For a casual gamer it is practicaly impossible to get hold of high level enchantments, without buying AD's through 3rd party sources, and/or creating lots of characters yourself to farm and refine AD from Leadership, Invocations and Salvage.
I agree totally with Starbigame in that passive AD gains from leadership and invocation needs to be removed. Also I would like to see the xp gain dissapear as well from both. Invocation should give higher XP boost, and possibly an AD boost as well.
I would like to see Leadership changed to a stronghold/companion proffesion instead of the current version, with a focus on boosting stronghold growth by allowing players to refine the resources they pick up, and also improving companions in various ways – could as an example allow emulating weapon enchants for companions or similar.
At the moment the gains for a paying customer is very small, so there is small incentive to throw vast amounts of cash at Cryptic, since you can get what you want cheaper from other sources.
Personally I would like to see more benefits, for people who buy their Zen with real cash compared to those that get them through the AD exchange.
As an example an actual paying customer could purple versions plus a unbound green, while zen exchange would get bound green ones. It would be fairly easy to implememt by handing out vouchers when people pays for Zen with real money.
Also implement more AD drains in the game -
Make all endgame gear “binds on pickup” including enchantments to ensure that people needs to spend AD and make it harder to just hoard them. Of course this change would also require it to be easier to refine items in general, something that again would help new players get into the game.
Possibilites could be that the items in Seven Sun Market that are buyable for AD became scaleable by level with a cap depending on item possibly also letting the items have bound enchantments that cant be removed, to give new players a taste of power.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,408Arc User
I could easily imagine having to buy them for all my alts, it would likely cost as much as now since the price would drop. However for new player with only few characters they would become obtainable in a reasonable amount of time because of lower prices on AH. Of course Enchants could be BTA on equip, and obviously it should become easier to get them to compensate.
As a fairly new player, to me it seems that the current economy of the game is through the roof and have created a hostile economic environment for newcommers to the game.
For a casual gamer it is practicaly impossible to get hold of high level enchantments, without buying AD's through 3rd party sources, and/or creating lots of characters yourself to farm and refine AD from Leadership, Invocations and Salvage.
I agree totally with Starbigame in that passive AD gains from leadership and invocation needs to be removed. Also I would like to see the xp gain dissapear as well from both. Invocation should give higher XP boost, and possibly an AD boost as well.
I would like to see Leadership changed to a stronghold/companion proffesion instead of the current version, with a focus on boosting stronghold growth by allowing players to refine the resources they pick up, and also improving companions in various ways – could as an example allow emulating weapon enchants for companions or similar.
At the moment the gains for a paying customer is very small, so there is small incentive to throw vast amounts of cash at Cryptic, since you can get what you want cheaper from other sources.
Personally I would like to see more benefits, for people who buy their Zen with real cash compared to those that get them through the AD exchange.
As an example an actual paying customer could purple versions plus a unbound green, while zen exchange would get bound green ones. It would be fairly easy to implememt by handing out vouchers when people pays for Zen with real money.
Also implement more AD drains in the game -
Make all endgame gear “binds on pickup” including enchantments to ensure that people needs to spend AD and make it harder to just hoard them. Of course this change would also require it to be easier to refine items in general, something that again would help new players get into the game.
Possibilites could be that the items in Seven Sun Market that are buyable for AD became scaleable by level with a cap depending on item possibly also letting the items have bound enchantments that cant be removed, to give new players a taste of power.
LOL some of this is just stupid. A ton (if not most) of the good stuff is BoP, if you make all end game gear BoP then there goes the market. No chance of buying artifact belts or cloaks, just have to run it over and over till you get em.
I agree that there should be a better incentive to spend $ vs AD to Zen though.
I have said it before, I will say it again since you have a hard time realizing it: Doing leadership on however many characters is NOT exploiting. The entire point of leadership IS to "print money", as you said. I'm sure that if you spent all the time you spend crying about non existent "exploits" on forums playing the AH or doing leadership, you would have no reason to complain in the first place.
While I agree with the point of this thread overall, I do not think it's gonna happen. AD whales with alt armies shoot up the ZAX exchange towards the cap and beyond generating a monstrous backlog. Those without the alt armies then either wait several days for their zen (I waited 1 week for one runic bag of holding) or pay PWE real cash to get it immediately. In addition, with the ZAX cap, players who pay cash to convert ZEN to AD get less AD from their money than they would if the cap was not there, hence they have to pay more. I do not see this changing anytime soon, this is just another way of milking the cow.
Personally I would like to see more benefits, for people who buy their Zen with real cash compared to those that get them through the AD exchange.
As an example an actual paying customer could purple versions plus a unbound green, while zen exchange would get bound green ones. It would be fairly easy to implememt by handing out vouchers when people pays for Zen with real money.
That's called Pay to Win, giving to much advantage to Pay to Win scares away Free to Play players. The F2P MMO model is reliant on an army of F2P players to be good but not great to play the role of fodder for every one else. It encourages the F2P player to use RL money to make the next step (they have to feel like its achievable). That's how money is generated
Make all endgame gear “binds on pickup” including enchantments to ensure that people needs to spend AD and make it harder to just hoard them. Of course this change would also require it to be easier to refine items in general, something that again would help new players get into the game.
This is what put the game at its current low population and encouraged the Leadership armies to become BIS. In the old days people could farm gear from the dungeons. Pay to Win players could buy the gear which brought in more ZEN. People didn't really turn to Leadership until 1) there was no money to be had in PVE 2) they introduced 2xXP weekends and account bound leveling gear that made it super easy to create an alt farm
So great, farm Dragon Eggs! Loads of people doing so, and even with such a production the price more than doubled those last days, since loads of people without skill are printing money to steal their way up.
The price on dragon eggs did not go up because leadership AD farms bought them up. They went up because cryptic fixed an exploit that has been used since beta to generate dragon eggs. It was in the patch notes as creating an overflow for professions resources.
I said this in the Leadership thread, but I'm of the opinion that the AD should be completely removed from Leadership, BUT replaced with something unbound that is worth farming for still.
In the real world, learning a trade or a profession doesn't just print you money. The professions available in Neverwinter should never have given us that ability. They should ALL be about making actual things that you can sell to other players for AD, including leadership.
Instead of just making AD out of thin air, give us unbound universal refinement stones, since that's what we're mostly using the AD for anyway. We can either sell those to other players if we need the AD, or funnel them straight into our equipment. Either way, no magical thin-air AD is bloating the economy anymore from Leadership, but people who grind for it on tons of alts still will have something worth grinding. People who use it for making AD can still get AD, they just will be getting it from other players instead of it just magically appearing.
In addition to this, though, we do need more AD opportunities in game. Give us more salvageable drops, and let BOE equipment drop from dungeons again. Give us back our Neverember dailies, and give us back the unlocked chest during dungeon delves.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2015
Here comes something completely objective, just because I believe that this issue actually merits discussion and I feel it is important to have a contextualized response here that doesn't necessarily argue anything.
Lets save the economy. Lovely sentiments OP, the issue is, you need to have a really in depth understanding of economics, both in the game and IRL, to be able to make any predictions as to what the changes you propose would actually lead to occurring. Also, save the economy from what, or from who. You, or I, or someone else might think its broken, but someone else might think its completely fine. The concept of the economy being broken is based on player perception. I suppose if the community as a whole believes in democracy and you wanted to establish whether or not the economy is broken, you could hold a poll and determine what the playerbase as a whole believes, but other then that, its just one opinion vs another and you would first have to hold a poll to determine whether or not the playerbase believes in democracy first before you go and hold a poll determining whether or not the economy is broken. Also, how do you or anyone else define an economy is broken, what are your criteria?
Lets assume for a moment the economy is broken, by definition by the majority of the playerbase, then what are the appropriate steps to take? These are also player opinions and with the exception of those players here who are highly qualified in economics, you will probably find that the suggestions most players make as to how the economy can be fixed don't take into account enough details to actually go about fixing it and will actually make it worse. How do we know that your suggestions, my suggestions, or anyone elses suggestions in this thread are made from an educated background, with a strong understanding of economics in general.
Finally, lets consider Cryptic. If we consider the games economy broken but they do not, does it actually matter if we believe in democracy or not? Furthermore, if they do consider the economy broken, is it not likely they have a game economy expert at hand to advise them on the proper coarse, someone who actually knows what they are doing? Maybe you should ask and find out, that could be a useful piece of information to know.
I have given my personal thoughts further back in this thread, however I will admit I am not an expert on game economics and those suggestions are entirely based on what would suit me. I personally believe a player should not make more AD from not playing the game and playing leadership then they do for playing the game. I also believe that all gear should be unbound and should never bind, even after being put on, but anyhow, that is an entire issue all of its own. Finally, I believe strongly in the promotion of inter player trading. This is a legitimate way of making wealth, even though I do not personally utilize it.
You want to save the "economy"? How about asking for GMs, that go after botters, bug users and exploiters FIRST...
These are important points too, but going from what i heard from ppl playing since beta, i dont believe this will ever happen. All spots runned by botters are well known, so are the goldsellers & buyers easy trackable, same goes for a lot of bugs. But again since all of this is known, it is clear they just dont care. Thats why my hopes aren`t high that they will ever change leadership. This forsaken system, creating wealth out of nothing. I can`t, by any means, understand how someone thought of this.... it just gives ad sellers an easy playfield. I started with mod 6, and all i know from before mod 6 is from hearsaying, tbh the game pre mod 6 sounded like alot more fun. Leadership was still giving way to muich for the afford u had to put in, allthough u were able to make large amounts of ad through playing. 1 by 1 every way to make ad through playing was killed.
I agree with rewarding people for actually playing the game, dungeons, pvp, skirmishes, foundry, etc. Ctrl+I is not what I consider playing the game. Rewards should be greatly buffed for playing it. and I agree with AD being removed from leadership. I know many people have made an AD leadership army and will obviously disagree, but I still think it's the best for the game.
I said this in the Leadership thread, but I'm of the opinion that the AD should be completely removed from Leadership, BUT replaced with something unbound that is worth farming for still.
In the real world, learning a trade or a profession doesn't just print you money. The professions available in Neverwinter should never have given us that ability. They should ALL be about making actual things that you can sell to other players for AD, including leadership.
Instead of just making AD out of thin air, give us unbound universal refinement stones, since that's what we're mostly using the AD for anyway. We can either sell those to other players if we need the AD, or funnel them straight into our equipment. Either way, no magical thin-air AD is bloating the economy anymore from Leadership, but people who grind for it on tons of alts still will have something worth grinding. People who use it for making AD can still get AD, they just will be getting it from other players instead of it just magically appearing.
In addition to this, though, we do need more AD opportunities in game. Give us more salvageable drops, and let BOE equipment drop from dungeons again. Give us back our Neverember dailies, and give us back the unlocked chest during dungeon delves.
This is a really good point, I stopped playing shortly after temple of tiamat came out. When i returned no Neverember Dailies, and Rix went from a list of 6-7 dailies down to only 4? Just this recent Waukeen event seemed pretty dismal. I recall the first waukeen event was loaded with opportunities to make diamonds. Short version of my experience this year i wasted the last 3 days trying to get waukeen coin purses, i could have farmed RP instead. Some points to understand:
It takes 50k AD per armor piece to Transmute armor pieces so i don't look like an 80's action figure
Some boons require you to spend AD
Armor reinforcement kits, 100,000 AD to make just one....
Artifact powers? Thats one of the biggest AD sinks i've seen so far! You want a specific artifact power? Either be lucky or buy 4x 12000 consumable.
The auction house not only has posting fees, where does it go?? is it to fund the poor auctioneers lifestyle?
I can keep going, but as much as some posts i've seen on here say we need to get rid of leadership AD farming, cryptic has put in plenty of ways to leach you out of AD regardless if you got it from playing the game or just spend half an hour cycling through leadership tasks.
Comments
I don't think rix's dailys should be removed I like them even though the rewards are not that great.
I do agree that you should lose the ad refining but it could be there to limit the amount gold sellers can refine maybe thats it's for. The thing to tackle in game is people who exploit so many accounts to farm ad to me this is not right at all i'd make it 2 accounts per IP/computer. I only have 1 account and 5 characters I think as I think making more to farm ad is very wrong.
I would like to see the ability to put AD in your personal bank like gold so you can transfer it to your other characters.
They could implement a methord that would prevent bots I can think of a few 2 stage methords that would randomly change all the time to stop them adapting.
I think the BoP and no real farmoptions at 70 just increases the problem. The chances for Artifact gear in dungeon is very low, i run around 15-25 dungeons daily, most days i dont see a single piece. And to see an artifact, well very low chance. As a no-leadership-army-user the only time you make good amounts of ad, will be by getting an artifact, though with the very very low chance, it wont happen often.
The BoP and the removal of dropping gear/endgamegear also adds to the problem. Ofc there is even more, like the removal of lord neverembers ad quests and the cutting of IwD heroics and the nerfing of the dragon hoard. All of them add to the problem in some way. But i dont have my high hope that this will ever change, devs dont care and their bosses care even less
AD whales with alt armies shoot up the ZAX exchange towards the cap and beyond generating a monstrous backlog.
Those without the alt armies then either wait several days for their zen (I waited 1 week for one runic bag of holding) or pay PWE real cash to get it immediately.
In addition, with the ZAX cap, players who pay cash to convert ZEN to AD get less AD from their money than they would if the cap was not there, hence they have to pay more. I do not see this changing anytime soon, this is just another way of milking the cow.
For a casual gamer it is practicaly impossible to get hold of high level enchantments, without buying AD's through 3rd party sources, and/or creating lots of characters yourself to farm and refine AD from Leadership, Invocations and Salvage.
I agree totally with Starbigame in that passive AD gains from leadership and invocation needs to be removed.
Also I would like to see the xp gain dissapear as well from both.
Invocation should give higher XP boost, and possibly an AD boost as well.
I would like to see Leadership changed to a stronghold/companion proffesion instead of the current version, with a focus on boosting stronghold growth by allowing players to refine the resources they pick up, and also improving companions in various ways – could as an example allow emulating weapon enchants for companions or similar.
At the moment the gains for a paying customer is very small, so there is small incentive to throw vast amounts of cash at Cryptic, since you can get what you want cheaper from other sources.
Personally I would like to see more benefits, for people who buy their Zen with real cash compared to those that get them through the AD exchange.
As an example an actual paying customer could purple versions plus a unbound green, while zen exchange would get bound green ones.
It would be fairly easy to implememt by handing out vouchers when people pays for Zen with real money.
Also implement more AD drains in the game -
Make all endgame gear “binds on pickup” including enchantments to ensure that people needs to spend AD and make it harder to just hoard them.
Of course this change would also require it to be easier to refine items in general, something that again would help new players get into the game.
Possibilites could be that the items in Seven Sun Market that are buyable for AD became scaleable by level with a cap depending on item possibly also letting the items have bound enchantments that cant be removed, to give new players a taste of power.
However for new player with only few characters they would become obtainable in a reasonable amount of time because of lower prices on AH.
Of course Enchants could be BTA on equip, and obviously it should become easier to get them to compensate.
I agree that there should be a better incentive to spend $ vs AD to Zen though.
Leadership is an investment for future gains. And it is time consuming.
You generalizations are just … I played this game since beta phase.
I didnt even had leadership leveled since mod5, I have never spend money on gear, and I am best in slot since since mod2.
I know people who just made by trading a couple of hundrets 1kk, yeah, right, hundrets of millions of AD just by playing the AH and investing smart.
But I guess, buying stuff cheap and selling it high counts as an exploit too… or what?
Live with your self caused poverty or start using your brain if you want to be rich.
That's called Pay to Win, giving to much advantage to Pay to Win scares away Free to Play players. The F2P MMO model is reliant on an army of F2P players to be good but not great to play the role of fodder for every one else. It encourages the F2P player to use RL money to make the next step (they have to feel like its achievable). That's how money is generated This is what put the game at its current low population and encouraged the Leadership armies to become BIS. In the old days people could farm gear from the dungeons. Pay to Win players could buy the gear which brought in more ZEN. People didn't really turn to Leadership until 1) there was no money to be had in PVE 2) they introduced 2xXP weekends and account bound leveling gear that made it super easy to create an alt farm The price on dragon eggs did not go up because leadership AD farms bought them up. They went up because cryptic fixed an exploit that has been used since beta to generate dragon eggs. It was in the patch notes as creating an overflow for professions resources.
In the real world, learning a trade or a profession doesn't just print you money. The professions available in Neverwinter should never have given us that ability. They should ALL be about making actual things that you can sell to other players for AD, including leadership.
Instead of just making AD out of thin air, give us unbound universal refinement stones, since that's what we're mostly using the AD for anyway. We can either sell those to other players if we need the AD, or funnel them straight into our equipment. Either way, no magical thin-air AD is bloating the economy anymore from Leadership, but people who grind for it on tons of alts still will have something worth grinding. People who use it for making AD can still get AD, they just will be getting it from other players instead of it just magically appearing.
In addition to this, though, we do need more AD opportunities in game. Give us more salvageable drops, and let BOE equipment drop from dungeons again. Give us back our Neverember dailies, and give us back the unlocked chest during dungeon delves.
Lets save the economy. Lovely sentiments OP, the issue is, you need to have a really in depth understanding of economics, both in the game and IRL, to be able to make any predictions as to what the changes you propose would actually lead to occurring. Also, save the economy from what, or from who. You, or I, or someone else might think its broken, but someone else might think its completely fine. The concept of the economy being broken is based on player perception. I suppose if the community as a whole believes in democracy and you wanted to establish whether or not the economy is broken, you could hold a poll and determine what the playerbase as a whole believes, but other then that, its just one opinion vs another and you would first have to hold a poll to determine whether or not the playerbase believes in democracy first before you go and hold a poll determining whether or not the economy is broken. Also, how do you or anyone else define an economy is broken, what are your criteria?
Lets assume for a moment the economy is broken, by definition by the majority of the playerbase, then what are the appropriate steps to take? These are also player opinions and with the exception of those players here who are highly qualified in economics, you will probably find that the suggestions most players make as to how the economy can be fixed don't take into account enough details to actually go about fixing it and will actually make it worse. How do we know that your suggestions, my suggestions, or anyone elses suggestions in this thread are made from an educated background, with a strong understanding of economics in general.
Finally, lets consider Cryptic. If we consider the games economy broken but they do not, does it actually matter if we believe in democracy or not? Furthermore, if they do consider the economy broken, is it not likely they have a game economy expert at hand to advise them on the proper coarse, someone who actually knows what they are doing? Maybe you should ask and find out, that could be a useful piece of information to know.
End of objective statement.
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
I have given my personal thoughts further back in this thread, however I will admit I am not an expert on game economics and those suggestions are entirely based on what would suit me. I personally believe a player should not make more AD from not playing the game and playing leadership then they do for playing the game. I also believe that all gear should be unbound and should never bind, even after being put on, but anyhow, that is an entire issue all of its own. Finally, I believe strongly in the promotion of inter player trading. This is a legitimate way of making wealth, even though I do not personally utilize it.
How about asking for GMs, that go after botters, bug users and exploiters FIRST...
All spots runned by botters are well known, so are the goldsellers & buyers easy trackable, same goes for a lot of bugs. But again since all of this is known, it is clear they just dont care. Thats why my hopes aren`t high that they will ever change leadership. This forsaken system, creating wealth out of nothing. I can`t, by any means, understand how someone thought of this.... it just gives ad sellers an easy playfield.
I started with mod 6, and all i know from before mod 6 is from hearsaying, tbh the game pre mod 6 sounded like alot more fun. Leadership was still giving way to muich for the afford u had to put in, allthough u were able to make large amounts of ad through playing. 1 by 1 every way to make ad through playing was killed.
and I agree with AD being removed from leadership. I know many people have made an AD leadership army and will obviously disagree, but I still think it's the best for the game.
Because that would also be "the best for the game" too.
- It takes 50k AD per armor piece to Transmute armor pieces so i don't look like an 80's action figure
- Some boons require you to spend AD
- Armor reinforcement kits, 100,000 AD to make just one....
- Artifact powers? Thats one of the biggest AD sinks i've seen so far! You want a specific artifact power? Either be lucky or buy 4x 12000 consumable.
- The auction house not only has posting fees, where does it go?? is it to fund the poor auctioneers lifestyle?
I can keep going, but as much as some posts i've seen on here say we need to get rid of leadership AD farming, cryptic has put in plenty of ways to leach you out of AD regardless if you got it from playing the game or just spend half an hour cycling through leadership tasks.