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Scoundrel vs Perma
drkbodhi
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
So... I was in 4 GG matches last night... and one of my nemeses was in on the opposite side during 3 of the 4 matches.
He is a CoS spamming perma TR... or he usually is. Many of you know this particular 'special case'... seeing that he used to be in a guild called I Pee on You and now he resides in Black Lotus. That being said this player has ALWAYS sought to kill me no matter what is going on and who is around. Considering that he is BiS, at last look he was around 3.5k, and I have a decent 2.254 iL... but I prove that iL means nothing... it would seem almost unfair.
That would have been the case for the WK Sab that I used to play. Yes, he killed me 4 or 5 times, all with the help of teammates. He ran from me every time I saw him... in a one on one situation. Especially after I called him out in zone chat... for almost dying to a 2.254 Scoundrel in a 1v1 situation.
I noticed one thing in particular... my SB was destroying him... which set up my DF. He was using a lot of SE, SB and CoS... but he was not doing any serious damage.
I like earning respect for the Scoundrel build... even though I lost I still Won... the Scoundrel's still won
He is a CoS spamming perma TR... or he usually is. Many of you know this particular 'special case'... seeing that he used to be in a guild called I Pee on You and now he resides in Black Lotus. That being said this player has ALWAYS sought to kill me no matter what is going on and who is around. Considering that he is BiS, at last look he was around 3.5k, and I have a decent 2.254 iL... but I prove that iL means nothing... it would seem almost unfair.
That would have been the case for the WK Sab that I used to play. Yes, he killed me 4 or 5 times, all with the help of teammates. He ran from me every time I saw him... in a one on one situation. Especially after I called him out in zone chat... for almost dying to a 2.254 Scoundrel in a 1v1 situation.
I noticed one thing in particular... my SB was destroying him... which set up my DF. He was using a lot of SE, SB and CoS... but he was not doing any serious damage.
I like earning respect for the Scoundrel build... even though I lost I still Won... the Scoundrel's still won
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
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@Lemonchill... I know you know who I am talking about because I have been in GG matches with both of you in the arena.
Glass cannon is right, one DF, an SB and a few CoS (as per your suggestion) and he was at 20% health, his Negation was working, and I was at 50%, then the cavalry came to save him.
I often wonder if how good he would be if he tried something else. He might be quite good.
imo any sab build should be better than scoundrel in pvp(WK or MI), the dazes arent potent enough and piercing dmg cuts through defection like a toothpick in hors d'oeuvres even with the SO nerf.
Since you need cc's to increase dmg to players, most of the time you'll need either dazing strike of SB slotted anyway if you're rocking a vorpal or any enchant that doesnt add a cc (btw do those work with the dmg boost? if so then that would be awesome
I played scoundrel most of my mod6 life and while i loved it a lot, i dont see it being more effective than sab (perma).
My rotation and defense was bothering him... since he and I have a past... he could not play his game. He is not used to fighting a TR who can dish out damage and take it. Using the proper passives allows me to do a lot more damage.
don't get me wrong, it's not about being wk, but the handicap between the builds. @kweassa was right to say that the closest remote competition to a sabo is an exe and from my personal gameplay, that would be also be a permastealth/exe because no matter how you view it, tr vs tr = stealth vs stealth
in retrospect, from mods 1 and 2, you could go up against iron man wearing practically nothing and best him (with w/e build) keltz0r comes to mind. but now... with the gear divide you just don't know if the person you're fighting with has magikarp syndrome because he so overgears you. that's why as much as i hate to say it, your lack of gear simply occludes your judgment on the viability of which builds work etc. it's not your fault, it's cryptics. mods 1 and 2 were the best days of pvp. back when BiS cost $50 and some CN runs
Quite honestly it is a build that is much more conducive to PvE than PvP. I went into VT on a guild SH run and the fact that I did a lot more damage than I had before says a lot. I was also able to CC the mobs pretty damned well. Smokebomb seems wasted in PvP.
(a) fails to kill the Scoundrel
(b) gets a "close-call" victory against the Scoundrel
(c) gets actually damaged enough to have to do that "roll 4 times, stealth and run away" bit
(d) receives help from another teammate to be able to finish the Scoundrel off
...then the Sabo needs to go and kill himself for being a total putz.
Any of the above 4 situations and the Scoundrel actually claims the moral victory.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As I said. Which makes me desire to stay with this build more and more. This was more of the reason behind the thread than anything else. Especially since the TR in question has better gear than my TR.
i'm dex/cha and deflection wherever i can get it, was 51% at scoundrel and i'm down to 44% as an exe. Sadly, i've never been sab on Sugar (hey Atwill
I do remember that when we talked you said you used a Deflection build during the leveling parts of M6. I tried the MI Exec in the preview and I had a hard time soloing the groups. When I added another version of Atwil to the server... I made him a Scoundrel... one was MI Scoundrel, the other was what I chose... Wk Scoundrel.
I have noticed a serious difference in my PvP game play and confidence. The only things I rely on is DF... some CoS after I use Daze or SB. It seriously makes solo-capping 2 or 4 so much easier... when the NPCs are out.
hallelujah praise the lord ,at last some acknowledge that benefits of bile at pvp
Just wanted to log in to share my point
more and more people is starting saying that saboteur is not anymore what it used to be...well they have right the whole tree is starting to be a bit damage lacking for the single exception of shocking execution and btw the only source of damage is not even SO (which kinda sucks) but procs from lostmauth set.
i started to investigate other builds.
summarizing:
1) sab no shadowy opportunity and 15 points in scoundrel (the top three feats). Result: quite nice in pve, worthless in pvp.
2) MI scoundrel with 5 points in sab (the cooldown reduction feat)... those dazes...they really do nothing and im forced to use smoke bomb which is dodgable without even trying. Hence no damage multiplier ...and things end bad quite soon.
Solutions tried:
- Bilethorn for the slow: has more than 30 seconds internal cooldown and not last enough to charge and duelist the enemy once. It builts stacks on avalance... big no no
- Terror .. well, it goes better but not worth the money for it.
- Lightning....this so much this... aoe stuns. Nice in pve, probably the most usefull tr build for pve and for soloing. Not tried in pve.
3) wk scoundrel with 10 points in exe ( the one for vengeance pursuit), adds and interrupt and a slow... still elven battle counters the hell of it. No itc , no shocking .. nothing. well not being fotm is a thing, but hey thats too much.
4)mi executioner with 15 points in scoundrel is what i m going to test now, with tenacious concilement for max recharge speed on stealth.
btw im not much sold.. im one of those rare CHA fans for maximum deflect... which worked nice when i was sab but now? dont know.. still rocking a solid 56% deflect tr with no pots as full saboteur while keeping more than 90k hp.
will need to see how an exe with 16 str can work.
the only thing i can try more is switching to wk and slot "adv position'' for a solid perma combat advantage giving cha a damaging sense too ( in this case goodbye itc )
the whole point of this discussion? do whatever you want, the changes the contesting in pvp killed every tactics.
happy too see you all playing, im quite curious to know who was the tr you were talking about since i joined black lotus yesterday
Thank you for this... it will be very helpful for others. As many of us TRs know... we all about helping each other.
You will know who this boisterous, obnoxious, much reviled person is... eventually. If you just joined Black Lotus... you need to change your sig. As of the posting of this thread, he was with BL... he changes guilds A LOT.
You could just say in chat Atwil says hello... then you may find out, if he is on... then you may also be hated after that.
As far as the Wk Scoundrel... that is my set up. High DEX, Rather high CHA and Adv Pos all the time. I tried using First Strike to add to the PvE stuns... but it does not work as well as Adv Pos. I have used my particular build to some recent success in PvP, as well. But that has more to do with Concussive Strikes... and my rotation.
I beg to differ, mory. The MI Sabs are exactly what they used to be -- except the date on that 'what they used to be' goes back way further than we'd usually imagine.
Think carefully. Almost in a state of perma or semiperma, protected by consecutive stealth durations and ITC, having no talent to risk any daring attacks, these TRs just spend time making sure combat status lasts enough to fill up 100% AP... and then makes up for their low and dreadful skill factor with this brutal, brutally overpowered shot of SE.
Remind you of something? Me, I get flashbacks of mod2.
Generally agreed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
many times i got really "nice" private msg during or after fight from opponent i killed criticizing me about my play style. and i have been stomped by players who managed to kill a "mighty tr" a tr that does not use stealth+cos spam build and dont use first strike+ executioner feats + se to one shot your opponent.
so what im trying to say is be original and play what ever makes you feel good
dont worry play happy
When people have been spoiled and coddled for 2 years non-stop by broken sh*t, they tend to start to take for granted that that broken shi*, is part of 'skill'.
This goes for any class that's got broken mechanics. No matter how good a player is, there is limits. When you see a certain class doing something constantly unbelievable, even when they are amongst their peers in terms of skill and gear, then that's a tell-tale sign that something's wrong.
TR players, the old and new both alike, have been so much spoiled by the clock-work stealth rotations + ITC, which, when played right, frankly speaking, is at impregnable levels of self-defense and totally unfair to other class players, that many of them have actually come to believe (even other class players as well!) that's entirely normal to be expected of.
The truth is, that's bullshi*. That's always been bullshi*. A TR, just like any other class, needs to weigh in between his attacks and his defense, and needs to take risks to do deal effective attacks, and when fails needs to receive a flaming retaliation from his opponents, like any class. When you manage something wrong you don't just push a button and then dodge 4 times into a single direction and get away from everything scot-free.
People used to something like this, especially some of the more renowned TR players, think this is the normal way to play a TR, and a TR that isn't built that way is wrong. Fortunately, we've come a long way in learning that having good playing skills doesn't necessarily mean you also have excellent insight into balance. Truthfully speaking, the way non-MI scoundrels and executioners are performing, is pretty close to what I've been saying all along since mod2. Old-timers like morenthar or rustlord would probably still remember what these forums were like when a total nubby new TR player like me first appeared and started suggesting stuff in this direction.
At this point I think non-MI WK Scoundrels and Executioners, in terms of efficiency, are probably the closest thing we have to a "totally balanced TR". Basically none of the permastealth is there. Stealth durations are much shorter now, and when not managed carefully can easily leave you wide open with considerable gaps in your defense. Doesn't have a "1-button cure" to all troubles like the MI does, and can deal reasonably good damage but only in you practice and study the technical combos and rotations, and can do their expected roles within a reasonable limits of expectancy. You can troll nodes or backcap, but not like do it forever against multiple people.,
In that sense, as for paths Sabos need a kick in the nuts, and for paragons MIs need a slap to their face in regards to ITC and SE. Settle and fix those problems and frankly, from that point on, excluding some unforeseen bugs or exploits, TRs would become actually totally balanced for the first time in the game's history.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
When I played WoW... many years ago, I quit not long after Lich King... there was an assumption that every rogue was 'X-build'... because 'X-build' was best for raiding and dungeon runs. I hated that build, for more than the fact that everyone used it. I tried it on another character on a different server. Instead I went for a build that only 5% of rogues used... and used very well.
I found myself kicked from parties and raids because I would always ask to be put in with a specific group... with Hunters because of their high-crit builds. I did that because it would feed my high-crit build.
The players who chose to make something the gold standard have handicapped themselves and the game. I see the same thing with people who choose cookie-cutter routes, "it is done because it is what is expected". But then I feel sorry for them... not being able to look inside for what they want. Players that do that... choose classes based on end-game results and ease of play.
I will always choose a TR, Rogue, Thief, Burglar as a first character and a main. Because that is how I like to play. Not because it is the best class for DPS.
I for one will probably never make a DC just to get the sigil. Why? Because I am a melee DPS player. I tank rather well with my under-geared GF because I have help from a guild full of good, skilled players. As a TR I am one of 2 "go to guy" for newbie TR guidance.
LOL... If we are now asking for handouts... a lesser Lightning would be truly appreciated. LMAO
Ah yes... which means that you've also took notice of the true potential behind the executioner's unique stealth management and what it implies in combat... which IMO is one of the rough standards of telling apart which TR player really knows his stuff, and which do not. Good for you, rayrdan.
You crazy halflings. LOL. But doesn't that probably leave you with a quite low HP pool?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'