TR Stealth Breaks D&D Rules

armadeonx · July 2015

Weighing in on the often discussed TR debate I'd like to bring up what I find to be the single most OP TR trait.

Being able to strike 'from concealment' then immediately stealthing again is not only ridiculous it is against D&D rules which state:
You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight.

In other words, once concealment is left it can only be regained by being out of line-of-sight of enemies.

TR's are superbly powered even without semi/permanent stealth; stuns, teleport (including upward) gymnastic dodging ability, control breaking, amazingly powerful strikes, they have by far the broadest range of skills in NW - then add the ability to fight without the enemy being able to return fire and you have discussion after discussion about them on these forums.

I would like to suggest to Cryptic that the correct implementation of D&D stealth rules would go a long way in rebalancing this class and give all the others a fairer experience.

Surely all classes are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses - I'm aware of both sides for all classes except the TR where I find it very hard to identify any weaknesses at all.

attorn97 · July 2015

Give control wizards Greater Invisibility!

b0redgamer · July 2015

Or detect invisibility.

armadeonx · July 2015

lol as i have a CW i'd vote for that but the broader point is one of strengths & weaknesses - all classes except TR's (and to a degree HR's) have weaknesses counterbalancing their strengths.

The specific point that TR skills break D&D rules by being able to hide WHILST YOU ARE LOOKING AT THEM is absolutely ridiculous.

Personally I'd like to see a cooldown of several seconds after they leave visible range/hide/stand behind you before they could stealth again. To be honest a good TR barely even needs stealth as they are so hard to hit and and break control etc.

darkpathslp · July 2015

I'd like to know how they hide after I set them on fire with my rebuke? I mean they are on fire people what are they part predator?

kitaar · July 2015

lol at the predator comment...

patsfire · July 2015

All you see is HATE towards TR lol. You get killed by one using the powers given to them and you get upset. Each class has certain "cheese" powers that make them annoying. For Example, HRs and that Rooting stuff, and the CW with their freezing. A TR is useless if rooted/frozen, so learn to play your class and stop complaining. I have played as a TR, so I know it can seem OP but its not. I have also played as HR and CW, and I can tell you their powers are more OP than the TR simply because they can Root/Freeze MULTIPLE people. So please stop crying about the TR and just learn to play YOUR class better.

patsfire · July 2015

So, your telling me that the HR Rooting and CW freezing is perfectly fine and balanced?

b0redgamer · July 2015

Considering neither one of those things can affect a TR while in stealth or while the opponent is dazed then yes. If you are new to the game you might want to look at all of the information from the past 2 years with the buffs and nerfs that have been implemented. Then take a look at the discussions regarding a TR being OP and the amount of TR veteran players who will admit to it. Now take into consideration the Xbox is behind on balance updates and you have a very obvious answer. For further information see guides on Perma-Stealth builds.

patsfire · July 2015

You know, I am not going to argue on a forum because its pointless. But I guess you just don't understand that a TR most likely has a REALLY low Defense....so they will get one-shotted themselves unless they one shot the other person. So if the person across from the TR knows their class, then they can play it properly and kill the TR fairly easily. But by all means cry about TR some more.....that never gets old lol

b0redgamer · July 2015

I did not "cry about TR" as you so put it, look at all of my posts and please point me to crying about TRs. The fact of the matter is simple. Try and defeat a well built TR played by a skilled player in a 1 v 1 scenario such as back capping a node. If you are not a TR you will lose nine times out of ten. Now take a well built and well played SW, CW, GWF, GF, HR or DC vs the same skill level as the TR, not going to end well for anyone but the TR. If you as a TR are getting schooled by players of other classes then you are obviously either not using a proper build or you are lacking in skill. If that is the case then a proper SW will wipe the floor with you. Especially if your build is based around one-shot kills. A good player will dodge and make you suffer as you have not built a proper TR.

Edit: One shotting is not a proper TR build so that alone is an indication of lack of knowledge regarding builds for a TR.

sslumdog · July 2015

darkpathslp wrote: »

I'd like to know how they hide after I set them on fire with my rebuke? I mean they are on fire people what are they part predator?

lol, or when you hit them with a DoT/Daze (from a DC) and they stay stealth

b0redgamer · July 2015

sslumdog wrote: »

darkpathslp wrote: »

I'd like to know how they hide after I set them on fire with my rebuke? I mean they are on fire people what are they part predator?

lol, or when you hit them with a DoT/Daze (from a DC) and they stay stealth

Hence my remark regarding TR perma-stealth builds. As I main a SW we are the underdogs, I acknowledge that fact. However, when I hit them with WB and they are able to stealth regardless of the damage ticking, that alone gives them an advantage. I will say this, my SW makes badly built TRs suffer on a regular basis.

bmean · July 2015

As a dps DC, I can put up a good fight with a TR, what annoys the heck out of me is my DOT stops when they go stealth. however there is one spell I use, and with 3 hits they are dead or practically dead, and stunned long enough for me or a teammate to finish them off.

b0redgamer · July 2015

Not against a properly built TR. Your DOTs is a tickle compared to a properly built SW or CW. The key word in your statement is "teammate" if your team is heavy on a node and you can pop the TR and your teammates can pick him/her off that is plausible. If you as a DC can down a TR solo that TR is not properly built or skilled. In a 1 v 1 situation you have no chance with someone who knows what they are doing.

sslumdog · July 2015

bmean wrote: »

As a dps DC, I can put up a good fight with a TR, what annoys the heck out of me is my DOT stops when they go stealth. however there is one spell I use, and with 3 hits they are dead or practically dead, and stunned long enough for me or a teammate to finish them off.

I don't think DoTs stop in stealth?

@b0redgamer good,let them have it lol. love runnin my DC with a good SW.

b0redgamer · July 2015

It does not stop but they can remain in stealth while it ticks.

b0redgamer · July 2015

sslumdog wrote: »

bmean wrote: »

As a dps DC, I can put up a good fight with a TR, what annoys the heck out of me is my DOT stops when they go stealth. however there is one spell I use, and with 3 hits they are dead or practically dead, and stunned long enough for me or a teammate to finish them off.

I don't think DoTs stop in stealth?

@b0redgamer good,let them have it lol. love runnin my DC with a good SW.

That is where SWs shine. Give me a good DC and watch people get blasted. Alone, we have no chance.

armadeonx · July 2015

Which again gets back to the basic issue of balanced strengths and weaknesses. The most obvious balance being that those who can do the most damage should have the weakest defence and vice versa.

Obviously the main point of the TR is to ambush opponents and this SHOULD be effective - but in an ambush once the trap has been sprung, the enemy has the ability to return fire.

Which is not the case when they can return to stealth in front of your eyes.

D&D rules also state that once the opponent knows of the rogues presence the ability for stealth is reduced as they are actively seeking them even if they hide behind something - hence my point about a cool down of several seconds after they go hide behind a wall etc.

You should not be able to re-spring the same trap on the same opponent 5 times in one minute...

rudakus · July 2015

Obviously the Rogue took a prestige class giving it HIPS

amadeazz · July 2015

If something is done about the seeming perma-stealth I'll be a happy camper. Because I will punish an improperly built TR with my SW. But I cannot take going from not seeing them to being one shot or close to it. Or either dazed, meleed or range attacked, or manage to run but cannot fully escape a TR regardless of efforts. Or baiting them surviving a failed attempt to one shot then throw my whole load at them then only to have it not phase them...

Long story short fixing the stealth problem would help greatly, but it doesn't mean TR will start getting their butts handed to them, only gives other classes a fighting chance.

tyrzn · July 2015

Yes. TR stealth breaks D&D rules, as well as any rules vs logic and reason. As has been stated standing in the middle of a street or whatever, the TR sneaks up behind you and stabs you. Then you turn and look at them and set them on fire, and then the TR vanishes right in front of your eyes. That is NOT stealth. That is an invisibility spell. Only an invisibility spell could hide someone that is a walking blazing fire screaming in pain that you cannot hear or see. That mechanic should be removed.

Now for this OP stuff. The entire game is setup to have PVP being OP. People that don't really want to play PVP are "encouraged" to play PVP to get ADs. 4000ADs for 4 matches, 4000 ADs for winning 1 of those matches.

So, you take a person fresh to 60, horrid gear score, gets kicked out of dungeons constantly for having a low gear score or isn't a DC. You take that person that cannot run dungeons to get purple gear to salvage or sell, so that AD revenue stream is gone. What other way are they going to get 8000AD for about 40 minutes of time? There are not any, the best way is doing 4 pvp matches? So, you have people that don't really even want to be in pvp, combined with horrible gear and that leads to a big problem.

So, you have poorly scored fresh 60s vs max scored pvp players. That is why the majority of matches are utterly lop sided with pugs.

The point is this game is designed to give the PVP crowd a steady supply of players that literally have no chance of beating them, so they can beat up on em and feel like they are "good" players by doing it. Then you add in the OP classes like TR to that mix and you have an explanation why the leader boards are FULL of TRs. This game isn't about player vs player at all, it's about giving massive unfair advantages to players to where it's not even a contest. Fresh 60s are there for no other reason that to be beat up and slaughtered.

You often hear someone say you trash players and your trash gear as that team is losing. Uh huh... and how are those new players supposed to get "good" PVP gear other than play pvp matches with garbage gear? They can't. Meanwhile, the 1-2 people on the team with decent gear are suffering because the rest of their team has the "trash" gear, so it doesn't matter how good or bad those 1-2 people with decent gear are... they cannot make up for the other 3 fresh 60s when their are 5 good gear people on the other team. So, you have yet another slaughter.

Their should be a "fresh" 60 pvp queue, and a "veteran gear" queue if they wanted to have "competitive" matches, which they clearly do not.

So, my entire point is complaining about the TR fixes nothing, yeah it's broke, yeah it's lame, yeah it's utterly unfair, and people that play them for the most part want an easy I win button and aren't trying to test "their" skill level. However, that's a small problem compared to how PVP is handled in general and considering that hasn't changed... I wouldn't hold your breath on TR changes that matter. Just take your beatings and move on, expect it, and you'll be a lot less stressed.

I never post, but I figured I would because this is a very common topic and has been forever on PC and now the XB1. Only recently migrated to XB1. This whole TR issue needs to stop being the focus, because there are far worse travesties going on in PVP than that. I'll say this, a max gear TR isn't the only OP class compared to everyone else that isn't a TR...

Edited for typos.

armadeonx · July 2015

The semantic issue aside, I'm not 'that' bothered about low GS people getting whacked in pvp, as like you say they will get better gear in a couple of weeks.

What does bother me is that those people who in general enjoy pvp (I am one of them) prefer there to be a reasonably level playing field for people of roughly equal GS. having weaknesses as well as strengths ensures this and all classes except the TR (and for inverse reasons the GWF) appear to have this.

The 'pvp crowd' or 'people that prefer to spend more time in pvp than pve' are not being served in good way as these players should not be forced to create a TR to get the most out of it, but that is what's happening.

I've been a pvp player in a number of games of both the mmo and fps types and would like to play the class I enjoy, not the class dictated by poor balancing.

If there's no change by the next mod I may well feel forced to create a TR too though at the moment I'm actually enjoying taking my 10k CW through the 'nub' phase

tyrzn · July 2015

Even fixing the TR doesn't fix you and your good gear being stuck on a team with 4 fresh 60s, vs a team of 5 good gear people... you will again be slaughtered. Even if the TR invisibility spell was removed, it wouldn't stop that. If you get frustrated by the TR invisibility, shouldn't you be getting frustrated being on 4-5 teams in a row where your team has fresh 60 gear and you lose 1000 to 100-13. Yeah, I was on a winning team that won 1000-13... That should never ever happen. No fun being on the winning team or the losing team, it was a joke. Think about it. I'd rather them fix that problem before the absurd TR casting major invisibility, but again I agree it's silly and never should have existed.

armadeonx · July 2015

Funnily enough I started another topic earlier suggesting a two tier split for L60's - an alternative idea to that on the same post was making PvP truly pug (i.e. no pre-forming teams & you live with what you get) and having team v team for those that want more formatted high level fights.

It appears there is a mechanic built into pvp that tries to even out the group mix (hence why you always seem to get 2 TR's on your team) - I would add a GS equalling calculation that matches teams to within an acceptable parameter and block changing armour once a match starts to prevent cheating.

The new expansion coming soon is based around Guild v Guild which is similar to the team v team so maybe TvT is not required but making pvp truly pug + gear equalisation would be very welcome imo.

patsfire · July 2015

Does no one see the real issue with "nerfing" the TR simply because it may or may not be OP? The issue comes into the abilities the TR uses in PvE. Nerf the TR, you NERF the TR in all aspects including PvE. Nerfing it AT ALL would make it virtually useless in PvE. And since a majority of the NW players on Xbox One play PvE I HIGHLY doubt they will be doing anything to render the TR useless in PvE anytime soon.

armadeonx · July 2015

In Guild Wars they had different stats for PvP and PvE. Now that was a well thought out game...

b0redgamer · July 2015

Ge

patsfire wrote: »

Does no one see the real issue with "nerfing" the TR simply because it may or may not be OP? The issue comes into the abilities the TR uses in PvE. Nerf the TR, you NERF the TR in all aspects including PvE. Nerfing it AT ALL would make it virtually useless in PvE. And since a majority of the NW players on Xbox One play PvE I HIGHLY doubt they will be doing anything to render the TR useless in PvE anytime soon.

This is simply not true. If you balance the class so it is unable to perma-stealth that in no way hinders it to be used as intended for PVE or PVP content. Also, there is already discussion and changes coming to class balances with the new modules, including the TR and other classes. Some will get nerfs, some will get buffs. This is how the game has worked for the past two years, the dev are constantly tweaking for balance.

patsfire · July 2015

See the problem comes in when some of the people are saying almost every single one of the TR's abilities are broken and OP. The perma stealth I can understand how that get be a little op, and that itself is not viable for PvE. But everyone saying that multiple abilities are OP and need to be nerfed are delusional

tgsmooth · July 2015

@patsfire, just about everything on the rogue is broken. Link number 1 shows me bull charging a TR from ehind while he's in the middle of an at will, notice that the bull charge does not send him flying into the prone like it should. Now why is this, he didn't roll or dodge it...glitch maybe? Heres that link:
https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/2f597428-7360-4857-9ee0-232f037b30e7?gamerTag=TG Smooth&scid=8dd60100-6cc0-42f2-bb3e-c47b184a79f5

This second video a TR hits me with his daily and one shots my tank. Really ?? They aren't OP , kep denying it, but when a TR can 1 shot a 16k tank with 47656 HP, 50.6% defense, 30% deflect, and 17% pvp damage resistance umm yeah sorry your OP, OP , Tripple OP. PLEASE NERF ALREADY!!!!!! HERES THE LINK FOR THAT ONE!!

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/e43a04ef-1608-46ad-ba05-d78b7a6f6856?gamerTag=TG Smooth&scid=8dd60100-6cc0-42f2-bb3e-c47b184a79f5

patsfire · July 2015

If you know that a TR while stealth ignore most defense and other things, WHY would you actually rush them in the first place? This goes back to my point, if you know you are horrible at your class and don't AVOID the TR, then you have no room to complain. ADAPT to the situation. Don't run down a TR, you will lose. Wait for it to become weak and catch them from behind. Hide in a corner and wait for them to pass by, then you can one-shot them. Everyone wants to complain about the TR because they have a one-shot capability. But when you fight a TR, you also have a one-shot capability, simply because most TRs have a horrible defense. Their power for destroying clueless players such as you is equally offset by their LACK of defense.

TR Stealth Breaks D&D Rules

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