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Tiamat - Fill by role and Quitting/Inactive Penalties
fluffy6977
Member Posts: 291 Arc User
After playing a fair amount of Tiamat raids and watching half the group leave if the third dragon head is not downed in the first run I really think there needs to be a penalty for leaving your team like that.
Having said that, just got stuck with a PUG of 11 Clerics and 6 tanks. I love having tanks, i main one, but we dont need more than 3-5 per instance. I could see needing maybe 6 clerics, but again some overkill is happening. And i know there are other instances that would be very happy to have those tanks and clerics.
Penalty to people who dont score points for 3-5 minutes, a 2 or 4 hour ban is probably enough to discourage people from sitting it out.
People will whine, but if these three things happen It will make the success rate skyrocket.
Whining about low GS? More important that you work together. This kind of "teamwork" would never manage a real end game raid.
Having said that, just got stuck with a PUG of 11 Clerics and 6 tanks. I love having tanks, i main one, but we dont need more than 3-5 per instance. I could see needing maybe 6 clerics, but again some overkill is happening. And i know there are other instances that would be very happy to have those tanks and clerics.
Penalty to people who dont score points for 3-5 minutes, a 2 or 4 hour ban is probably enough to discourage people from sitting it out.
People will whine, but if these three things happen It will make the success rate skyrocket.
Whining about low GS? More important that you work together. This kind of "teamwork" would never manage a real end game raid.
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All bans just make it so you can't access the Tiamat fight.
Regardless of win or loss, you should be staying and trying. Put in the work, or dont get the reward. By your statement you are EXACTLY the kind of player that prompted this post.
Team content. Means you play for the team.
Yes the heads could be a dps check of sorts, but people think they know everything and make up thier own rules to justify quitting because they are an expert in all things. They in turn make it a self fulfilling prophecy by leaving the other players who made the same commitment.
If we went into the instance with the mindset of "my next 20 minutes is in this raid" and knew we had to finish, there would be quite a bit more teamwork and less negative attitude.
You know you cannot change the gear score requirement or what the 24 other classes will be. You can change and effect how you play with and interact with them, and change and effect this and future outcomes.
Ask yourself if you are adding to the problem or the solution.
You seem to be missing the point. There are times that the dps is not there. Now think back to that run. Were there any players trying to prep the rest with instructions or did everyone just sort of gather? How many people were spamming about gear score? Did you spend time inspecting other players to see gear score or armor pen and have it in your mind that the run would fail?
With the number of experts here who have several different metrics they have made up, you included, there are almost always people who quit each run before actually making an honest attempt. Others who are already at the point where they don't even join the raid now. It all makes the newer players worse at the encounter and the more experienced less inclined to play it. We as a community are in a cycle where the negative is making it worse.
Having a ban on players who quit or afk at the fire before the end could make people try a bit harder.
I have been on runs that were a huge fail. However, I stayed to the end and asked myself first what I could do the next time to contribute to a win instead of finding other people to blame.
The fact is on more and more runs people are quittng for any number of reasons. You may be correct at dps on those heads is a good sign of a fail, but it is also a sign of poor planning and people thinking it is okay to leave before finish. As more people have a myriad of reasons to quit early, with no penalty(which is the discussion of OPs thread) it becomes the norm and feeds into more failure and more of what causes the failure.
As far as you insinuating that anyone who stays to the end on what you deem as a failure is stupid I disagree, take some offense, and will take the leap and guess you never try and step up to lead. If I am wrong and you are one of the few who organise everyone up and attempt to teach, my apologies in advance.
If you would like to discuss things like an adult and go back and forth with ideas and solutions, please tell me what you suggest to improve on the raid and add to the topic the OP put up.
If you don't want to commit, don't enter.
Honestly I don't understand the big issue with leaving all of a sudden with Tiamat. Everyone is crying that people leave, why don't you step up and get them to stay. But in any other dungeon/epic/CN when you fail at the end multiple times, you either leave yourself, which is what I do, or people start kicking eachother, which I hate VTK. So if we know we can't beat a dungeon, we leave and there is no one crying on the forum about it. But when we leave Tiamat, where there is 25 people instead of 5, all of a sudden its an issue.
In short, you people will just have to get over it. If half the lobby realizes that the run will fail then there should be nothing wrong with leaving it. Staying would be a waste of time. But by all means keep trying to beat it when its not possible, and then keep coming here to cry about people leaving when they know its not possible. Don't get mad at us because we have better things to do then waste 20mins on a failed endeavor.
You being one who leaves at two heads not down, I understand, but disagree with. Not because you are wrong about the chances to win, I disagree with leaving because there is no consequence, no player to replace you, and no limits to what every other player decides is the reason a fail will happen in the future.
The big issue with Tiamat for me is that it is not working the way an MMO should in my experience. Lack of communication, leadership, knowledge, and overall coordination is making a what could be a very cool encounter into something less pleasant.
Using a dungeon is a great example that is not apples to apples. We both agree VTK is not good, and that there are times the team decides to quit. The difference is that on the dungeon when you leave, it does not cripple everyone elses chances to succeed. With this raid, each person that quits lowers the chances exponentially, especially for what you deem a miracle.
-You should stay because it hurts everyone else's chances? What chances? We leave because it will fail, at best we are giving you all the opportunity to get more kills and get to that Gold Bracket, for whatever that's worth. You will get the same gear from failing whether we leave or not.
-You should stay because there is no one to replace you. That is on the devs for not putting a queue system to find replacements. We should not be penalized if we leave and they can't let someone join.
Also, you don't think about consequences for those who had no choice to leave. What if they got System Error, and got booted. What if they lost power. There is no way to know for 100% certainty that they left on their own free will, one could assume that though.
We all should stay because the raid should be treated as such, as a time commitment, and we all should try to beat it instead of expecting it to be a blowout win every time. Perhaps if it is a certain fail and people know they have to stay, they do this crazy thing that MMO players do and test out different strategies. Of course this would still require players to coordinate and edit chat tabs and learn to be present, which is an underlying problem with raiding overall on xbox.
The devs certainly should make a que where you can try to assist if you did not try in the hour. They should also give you a penalty for quitting, internet included. Will there be times by no fault your power goes out and you are booted, absolutely. Will that happen as much as people right now are quitting left and right, highly unlikely. In the case where your internet is sketchy and you dc all the time and you know it, maybe with a penalty you would think twice about joining.
Be sure to post up your global so all of us who complain and want to fix things can block you on live and do our best to ignore you in game. We clearly have different view of how the game is played and how to treat people.
I for one would like to have nothing to do with you in game ever, you rarely have anything positive to say or add to a conversation and throw around the word ignorant in a manner that speaks volumes.
My in game name snap@oox snap xoo
I have no guild, but do have a regular group of players and do not boot and loot ever.
Please tell me what yours and what guild you are in and hopefully we can both never cross paths.
although i could just play with my friends guild who boot n loot all the time lol..
You are all crying because the people you rely on to carry you through Tiamat, like every other dungeon, leave when we know its not possible, thanks in part to you not pulling your weight because your stats are horrible.
As I said, I ONLY leave when we don't get 2 heads down 1st run. Is it possible to beat if you don't do that? I have not seen it done once, by me or any of my other guild members. Have fun trying though. Also, maybe you should stop worrying about what every one else is doing and focus on yourself. If someone wants to leave then they should be able to do so w/o any penalty. If you seriously have to cry about people leaving then you yourself are the one who is the REAL problem. Why? Because you are the one with the horrible stats/GS that cause the instance to fail.
Here's a thought: What if all you under geared and horribly built characters get penalized for joining Tiamat in the first place? Each 1000 GS you are under 13k, that equals one full day you can not play the game AT ALL. Now that is an idea, and that is how uneducated you all sound crying for a penalty for people leaving early. gtfo and grow up.
End of rant, done with this thread.
More like if the first run against the dragon heads got black to 50% and that's it, or if in the second run most everyone gets zapped to death at blue and pings their revive and never gets to white. Or if things start out and it is on the 12 minutes left to go and Severin is still up, or it takes the other three groups joining to kill two of the summoners and then everyone's fighting on the clerics and nobody has any gems....
I think a lot of people believe it's still possible to win if everyone just tries harder, as if magically that DPS you weren't doing is going to show up suddenly. That while it took you 2 minutes to get black to 15%, certainly you can get the next four heads to 15% in 2 minutes. Sure it's possible to make it up if first round red is barely gotten to or if second round white is only at half when it ends, maybe it can be done if everyone keeps trying. (Although if 5-10 get discouraged and stop, others will join them because at some point too many leave, even if that's just an impression.
It just seems to me people believe that others stopping is always what kills a run. That they think all runs are winnable. The truth is sometimes they stop because the run is already dead. That not all runs are winnable. Sometimes you see what looks like a failure turn out a win, other times what looks like a win fails. But sometimes it's clear neither of those is going to happen.
So there's giving up and there's recognizing a hopeless situation. Merothrax has 2 minutes left and is at 85% health might not be a foregone conclusion, but it is if there's 2 people on the map.
So not accepting the challenge to let everyone know who you are? I pretty much expected this. You can PM me it if you are afraid to out yourself here. Please do boot me from any group you are in, my name in game is Snap, I play a control wizard. Have a nice day.
i know who you are i've seen you around.
@xxxsfalsxxx, your posts are always well thought out and you make good points. do you think the player base is on the same level as you and knows the loss or mostly follow what everyone else does?
I am one who does not think every run is winnable, but am percieving a trend with quitting that I think will only get worse. When I know there will be a loss I still keep killing for the chance of an egg.
By the by, if you are playing the GAME you aren't wasting your time. But thats a whole other philosophy. When i started playing games we got to level 50, died, started over at level one and did it again. There is a lot to be said for perseverance.
Is every raid winnable? Hell no. Thats what makes it fun. Should you keep trying? Yes. You can try new tactics, new things, whatever you want. But you absolutely should keep trying, i dont care how pro you are and how you absolutely KNOW something is unwinnable, because i can tell you from personal experience in other games some times when you've given up and are just messing around you actually do win, and those victories are the sweetest.
There ought to be a penalty. You should keep trying. You wont win every single one but maybe, just maybe you'll become better team player. Maybe just maybe we'll develop the sort of community this kind of game needs to survive on xbox. And maybe, just maybe, when harder content comes ought more patient and level headed gamers will sit in party with you and try to beat it for hours with you, because you did rhe same for them.
You dont play this kind of game for the stats. You dont play it for the gear. You play it for the experience. Why? Because its Dungeons and Dragons, and for the last forty or so years thats been more than good enough for THOUSANDS of players.
Get with the program , or find a new game sooner rather than later. The rest of us dont mind one bit.
** Claps ** Preach it! And thank you for saying this! I have said this many times and generally the "younger" generation do not get it. Its all about stats and gear and what more can I get or how high can I get my GS. Glad I am not the only one playing this game because its a Dungeons & Dragons experience!
My thoughts are simple. You quit in something people waited an hour for and ruin their gaming experience, that's 24 other people losing an hour of their life.
YOU fairly lose 24 hours of your single life.
1 24 hour ban for anyone quitting. That's fair if you do time for time.
Sick of this GS nonsense beyond belief... many better items have a worse GS that higher GS items...
GS does not represent how good of a player someone is as well. This GS nonsense really needs to stop.
The game says you need X GS, then that means it CAN be won if people are good with that GS. What GS complainers are really saying is they aren't good enough to win without superior gear, so they assume everyone else isn't good enough... and that's wrong.
Just now we had 7 people quit because they didn't like the rest of the 25 people GS. As soon as it started they threw a fit and quit. That is unacceptable.
You join a GROUP event, you agree to work as a group, or don't do it.
Again quiters should be banned from this for 24 hours, for costing 24 other people one hour of their lives to wait to try again.