A ton of CCs -- they can stunlock you as they burst you down in 5 encounters (3 stacks of Griffon's Wrath).
Large health pool and high damage resistance.
At will cc immunity -- they can block many times, stopping an effectively unlimited number of crowd controls, whereas other characters are forced to use over 25% of their stamina at a time.
You may think that GFs deserve a boost because they're melee, but half their abilities are distance-closers.
Lunging Strike:
Absurd range.
Incredibly low cooldown.
Very high damage.
Bull Charge:
Knocks target prone.
Very high damage.
GF has
Greater damage.
Greater survivability.
Greater mobility.
Greater control.
Equal cc immunity, but at-will instead of when unstoppable is available.
What's the point of rolling a GWF if a GF is better at every single thing? The only thing GFs are missing is (substantial) healing and stealth.
GF definitely needed to be able to do more damage before mod 6, but they have to give something up, not just get everything.
All i see here is a lot of unsubstantiated complaining.
You don't provide details of your comparisons to provide others with sufficient information to make their own informed decisions and, instead, have simply created a "nerf GF" thread, which is rather sad.
Let's go through what you wrote and see where your perspective doesn't make a whole lot of sense:
"Massive damage" - compared to what? An Ioun Stone of Allure? I guarantee i can find, at least, 5 other classes that can "massively" eclipse the damage done by ANY GF by easily x7-10.
A ton of CCs -- they can stunlock you as they burst you down in 5 encounters (3 stacks of Griffon's Wrath)" - stunlock? Really? You do know that Griffon's can be avoided easily don't you? You do realise there are limited charges? You do realise there are cooldowns? Apart from Griffon's, there is only Bull Charge and Indomitable Strength/Crescendo and, if you're SM, Flourish. All of those are EASILY avoided except for Bull Charge. Apart from, perhaps, the GWF, please show me one other class that has less CC.
"Large health pool and high damage resistance" - sometimes, yes, but the comparisons between the DR, HP and damage of the GF in comparison to other classes is fairly skewed in that for any "increase" in DR and HP a GF might have over any other class, a significantly larger proportion of damage is lost so that other classes deal considerably greater damage for their 'lack' of DR and HP. And if you want to try including the GF's Block as a part of the "high damage resistance" then, being a supposed GF player, you would undoubtedly realise that the GF's Block is one of the most bugged class mechanics in the game.
"At will cc immunity -- they can block many times, stopping an effectively unlimited number of crowd controls, whereas other characters are forced to use over 25% of their stamina at a time" - oh wait... you do actually believe that the GF's Block actually works... You're really indicating you don't play GF much at all... "Stopping an effectively unlimited number of crowd controls"? Really? Block is limited. If it isn't (and only in specific circumstances and even then it only appears to be unlimited), you should realise that Block does not provide 360 degree CC immunity. A smart player purposefully positions themselves behind the GF to use CC. I know. I've fought many. What you fail to realise is that while other classes gain the ability to avoid CC through their class mechanisms, while they do so they avoid all damage entirely. A GF continues to take, at least, 20% damage before DR. So, if you can't play smart enough to get behind a GF's Block to CC them, whose fault is that? The players of the GF class or yours?
"Absurd range" - again, you continue to fail to compare it to other classes. Is the range really absurd when compared to that of any other class? The only classes that might be slightly less consistently able to close distances as often are the Paladin and the GWF.
"Very high damage" - again, compared to what? An Ioun Stone of Allure? Every other class has an Encounter Power that has an equivalent damage potential and cool down.
"Knocks target prone" - oh no! An Encounter Power that has a knockdown! How is this Encounter any worse than such powers as Entangling Force? Does it CC the player for longer? What you fail to comprehend is that by using Bull Charge, a GF then must IMMEDIATELY somehow close with their opponent in order to capitalise upon the knockdown otherwise the opponent will not be CC'd for long enough to make the power anything other than a waste of space. This means the GF MUST use Lunging Strike or Threatening Rush. That means the Power BY ITSELF is not a problem at all. Show me one other class that can't do something similar when a combination of different Powers are used.
"Very high damage" - again, you continuously want to refer to a GF as dealing "high damage" yet your statements are false in the realistic light of comparisons. This Power does not deal significantly more damage than any other comparable class Power, in fact, i even venture that it actually deals a little bit less damage than it should when compared to those powers of other classes.
"Greater damage" - as i've illustrated, it does not, except if you want to compare it to an Ioun Stone of Allure.
"Greater survivability" - your statement fails in comparison when considered logically. For example, if the potential damage of a DPS class is x greater than a GFs, then a GFs proportional increase in DR and HP should be similar. This is not the case. Despite the GF sometimes having approximately 20% more DR and HP than a DPS class, the DPS class has significantly more than 50% more damage. Given this, what would you consider to be fair? A wall that does little damage but takes a pounding or the hammer that can't take a pounding as well but delivers it? Chemboy developed a reasonably decent method of comparing gear, survivability and damage and it ALWAYS demonstrated that a GF lost out considerably when compared to other classes. This is not taking into account recent changes to classes, however a 20% increase in GF damage and the decimation of the GF's survivability does not readdress this imbalance.
"Greater mobility" - what kind of logic are you using that indicates to you that a GF has greater mobility? Greater mobility than what? A wall? Seriously, this point alone serves to indicate how illogical your entire argument is.
"Greater control" - again, what logic are you using? You think that a GF has greater CC than a CW, a TR and a HR at the least?
"Equal cc immunity, but at-will instead of when unstoppable is available" - Now you want to specifically compare CC immunity capacities directly to a GWF do you? Then let me sum this one up really quickly... A GWF can run away and can not be caught. A GF can not.
In short, your points are illogical, irrelevant, have no basis in fact, are completely biased and ill-thought out, demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of a GF and seem to be nothing other than a specific attempt at 'nerfing' GFs purely because you obviously got roflstomped in PVP by a GF that was a better player than you.
Please wipe your tears, put on a brave face, show some courage and consider learning from someone how to play better.
I agree completely with the OP. I've played both GWF and GF, and I have to say it's really dumb how much damage the GF are given. If that's to balance out the GWF's buffs, then it should really be settled down a bit and bring up the GWF's raw damage. Honestly GWF feel like the 2nd weakest class on top of skill shots, and PvP CC nerfs. GF have soo much damage and the ability to just put up a shield and block everything is ridiculous. I sound pretty Bias, but I have played all the classes. It's really only balanced in terms of equal gear score, but OP are just unbalanced.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I agree completely with the OP. I've played both GWF and GF, and I have to say it's really dumb how much damage the GF are given. If that's to balance out the GWF's buffs, then it should really be settled down a bit and bring up the GWF's raw damage. Honestly GWF feel like the 2nd weakest class on top of skill shots, and PvP CC nerfs. GF have soo much damage and the ability to just put up a shield and block everything is ridiculous. I sound pretty Bias, but I have played all the classes. It's really only balanced in terms of equal gear score, but OP are just unbalanced.
It's easy to surround and murder a GF compared to an OP. The GF needs something to bring in pvp because the OP does a better job at what the old pvp GF used to do.
Besides, they still do a poor job of handling trappers and TRs. They can't take down BiS GWFs. The OP is a whole different ball game. Not a freakin thing can bring them down less it's 5 people at once. They need damage when they're completely outclassed by OPs defensively.
Their gap closer cream of the crop bull charge is predictable as anything else if not more than anything else. It only takes 2 people to bait them out of guard then they're wide open.
These kinds of threads are why I am afraid to invest ANYTHING in my GF at all. It starts here and ends in a mod or two with GF being absolute garbage again.
I usually don't reply to these, but I had to seeing as these comments gave me a good laugh. I like the part where we talk about GF's doing "MASSIVE DAMAGE!". Continue with the fake tears and trolling.
i believe, that author of this thread is not playing GF.
Try to stand agains TR, who is invisible, incatchable and hits you by 20% dmg once per 2 seconds.
Try to stand CW, who CC you all the time, and repel you to the opposite corner of map.
Try to stand good gwf, whos hp is increasing instead of decreasing while hitting him
Or try to kill good DC or immortal OP, not mention perma roots HR.
Yes, GF get a dmg boost, but after 2 years of being useless now, from time to time, can beat hard.
.
Finally the GF has some use and the hater-aide comes flowing.
I tried PVP w/ a GF. TR stayed perma-steath and dazed me forever when it ran out.
CW tossed me around like a ball.
GWF is a D&D bezerker on crack and loves pain. While unstoppable, you might as well throw grapes at them.
Leave the class alone, well, fix the block and DR bugs first
[PvP] TR Reveal http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/559063/pvp-tr-reveal
Whatever happened to the two second stealth reveal on attack. Ever since the patch, I've been repeatedly killed by TRs I've never even had the chance to see, but it was not mentioned in the patch notes. What's up with that?
yesterday i fought 1vs1 one of the strongest Gf ingame, i got decent gears, 3,25 ( tenacity gears ), i'm paladin, which means i have decent defense, the Gf 2 shooted me, with an 80k hit ( hopefully i have good defense and tenacity, because without it.. )
I was unable to fight him back, because my class is too slow to hit him from back when he was shield up.
Now, i will not say that they are too strong, because they are The solution against my class, even with max gears, i think that i will never be able to kill him, not even sure that with max gears i'll be able to defend against that kind monster.
So, from my paladin's point of view, it's ok, Gf's are my nemesis.
Now, the only thing i'm thinking is that i have no idea who can really fight 1vs1 against a top Gf, i tried all classes, but i'm not good with all especially at high lvl.
So my question is, think about fighting a top Gf, which class with same kind of gears got advantages against him? ( don't tell me Tr, we all know that a good Gf will kill a good Tr, and don't tell me another Gf.. )
Then your build is wrong or your playing it wrong, Dom one of the top pvp GFs will tell you flat a well played and geared OP is 100% unkillable by a GF.
My main is a GF I am on the Same lvl as Dom, Azrael and Druss the Legend I have met more than a few OP that I could not kill even if they didn't fight back and that was using Wheel.
Sorry my friend your doing something wrong, you need to fix your build for pvp or both.
This thread should be deleted, honestly. GFs don't need a nerf. Yes, they are great at PvP right now. But they were in a terrible spot Mods 2-5, and I think they deserve this. Also, even now, conqueror GFs are not needed or entirely wanted in t2 dungeons and hard skirmishes. Protectors, yes, but only to a point. OPs are better atm for tanking, and all that single-targt burst is useless in PvE. Conqueror GFs are made for PvP, and deserve to be strong. To give an example, Destroyer GWFs are kind of the opposite. They are built for PvE, and can't be compared. Yes, there's not really a point to Destroyer in PvP, because Conqueror does it all better. In PvE, it is the opposite. I think every class except for SW is balanced currently, and there is data to back it up. Therefore, stop calling for unnecessary nerds and clogging up the forums. Can a moderator look into shutting this thread down? It really is useless and a waste of space on the forum. Thanks.
[PvP] TR Reveal http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/559063/pvp-tr-reveal
Whatever happened to the two second stealth reveal on attack. Ever since the patch, I've been repeatedly killed by TRs I've never even had the chance to see, but it was not mentioned in the patch notes. What's up with that?
Busted. Nice catch dfnce.
I really don't like forum posts from people that play ONE class but complain in another class's section.
Was the OP around when the GF was a sad knight wearing plate armor that couldn't crack a walnut much less do any damage to mobs or bosses? Methinks not.
I was watching some NWO PvP vids online during lunch. OP's are insane tanks!
I saw a pack of TRs/CWs team up on 1 OP and he was laughing off the damage. He never went below 25% health with an army on him!
The vid was shot by one of the TRs in full orange/teal.
I was actually shocked.
Please watch some of these videos before yammering about nerfing a class that's already on the pve unemployment line because you got bu...pride-hurt in PVP by a whale-pack.
Call me selfish, but I kind of hope the OPs get new attention like the SW did because they're living the dream.
I was so jealous watching that.
We're like the fat little dwarf kids that want to be called in on the kick ball game.
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
I have actually stopped playing my GF because it is overpowered. The damage is too high in most cases and my personal enjoyment playing it has dropped to an all time low over the past few weeks to not even playing it all. Until I see a damage nerf plus a change to bull charge having a much lower base damage I doubt I will be playing my GF much if at all in the future.
I too, have been playing GF since beta. Calling a GF overpowered in PvP now, more than ever, is a joke. GFs WERE overpowered. They have since been quite balanced. I would seriously consider looking at who you are competing against, rather than blaming it on the strengths of the class. Maybe they are low GS people, low skilled?
LOL I'm gonna throw some wood into the fire, if I might:
I've been for a long time, avoiding to create a GF (I had all classes before it, made a second TR before my GF even, I really DIDNT want to create one, I was just too bored to avoid it any further. lol)
Anyways, since I saw they had a Damage buff, I thought I should try one now, if anything, at least in order to get to know the class itself (I PvP a lot). I have to say, if you get to Page 3 on Lv60+ NCL with blue PvP gear and a couple rank5, 6's, while plowing most people in a 3-move-combo, I'd say at least the CC+Damage point he made, is at least HALF viable.
Let's get real, here, close the gap after Bull Charge? Just walk to the dude (LOL I'm serious), or just drop a Flourish right after, and Anvil at the end, boom, dead.
even people with more gear/boons than me, got screwed up on 2 rotations, (namely quite decent CW's with Shield on tab, even). so the damage boost was a bit too much, I'd say.
CC chains are quite easy to achieve but you do need to know what works where, and what does what, so its not unusual to see scrubby GFs get a couple good shots off on some better geared chars, but I guess sheer dumb luck can also count as skill (lol). I'll give you this: CC chains are easy, but you need to know them and the class you're playing against, so, there's a point on both sides. Also, there's classes with way more CC, for example, if Harrowstorm worked as it should, SW's would have a prone as well, making them as much of a threat as any GF, maybe even more, because SW's are ranged, so, there's that, too.
As far as DR/Shield block/CC imunnity, Block is not 360º, anyone with 2fingers worth of brain would know that you never seek to attack a GF from the front/sides... And even if you do, and you have quick damage dealing powers (ex. a TR's flurry or the DoT stacks from the SWs), you can burn down their block quite fast making them vulnerable as hell, cuz even with high defense and bulkiness, you cant have it all, if you specced to kill (DPS route) you will be easier to kill as well and if you spec to tank, you wont kill anyone in one rotation, its all about the build you have and the knowledge you have.
I agree they buffed the class a bit too much, but I also think they really needed it, they're probably the most neglected class of the game, since launch.
yesterday i fought 1vs1 one of the strongest Gf ingame, i got decent gears, 3,25 ( tenacity gears ), i'm paladin, which means i have decent defense, the Gf 2 shooted me, with an 80k hit ( hopefully i have good defense and tenacity, because without it.. )
I was unable to fight him back, because my class is too slow to hit him from back when he was shield up.
Now, i will not say that they are too strong, because they are The solution against my class, even with max gears, i think that i will never be able to kill him, not even sure that with max gears i'll be able to defend against that kind monster.
So, from my paladin's point of view, it's ok, Gf's are my nemesis.
Now, the only thing i'm thinking is that i have no idea who can really fight 1vs1 against a top Gf, i tried all classes, but i'm not good with all especially at high lvl.
So my question is, think about fighting a top Gf, which class with same kind of gears got advantages against him? ( don't tell me Tr, we all know that a good Gf will kill a good Tr, and don't tell me another Gf.. )
Then your build is wrong or your playing it wrong, Dom one of the top pvp GFs will tell you flat a well played and geared OP is 100% unkillable by a GF.
My main is a GF I am on the Same lvl as Dom, Azrael and Druss the Legend I have met more than a few OP that I could not kill even if they didn't fight back and that was using Wheel.
Sorry my friend your doing something wrong, you need to fix your build for pvp or both.
totally agreed to this, my OP is lv70, is half decently geared and competes easily with well geared/booned players in more-than-one vs me situations. You're most likely playing your class wrong.
Also, OP's "shield" is better than the GF's (CC imunity, heal and damage reduction), so dont even try to tell me that he was a monster, if you specced to tank/heal propperly, you could handle him easy in 1v1, you might not have killed him, but he wouldnt kill you either.
I too, have been playing GF since beta. Calling a GF overpowered in PvP now, more than ever, is a joke. GFs WERE overpowered. They have since been quite balanced. I would seriously consider looking at who you are competing against, rather than blaming it on the strengths of the class. Maybe they are low GS people, low skilled?
The poster above you is one of the best if not the best GF in the game atm, and plays with and against top players in the game.
That's perfectly fine that mfgamesys is well geared and knows what he's talking about when coming to terms with the class. I was in BIS gear at lvl 60, and I remember what GF was like back then with BIS gear. But I also remember what it was like without that. Speaking from a BIS gear perspective doesn't improve the point made... GFs can easily 2-3 shot someone with Bull Charge -> Anvil if they're rocking r12 Brutals or Radiants in every slot. But what if you don't 2-3 shot that other person? Chances are, they'll whittle your guard down before your anvil is back up, and if they're smart, they can easily escape your next burst of attacks.
The GF class is a "burst your opponent down in seconds or fail to do so and slowly be killed" class in PvP right now. And if you bursted the opponent down, you probably busted the other guy's head in with an anvil crit for half his health. But if you didn't, the shoe's on the other foot. This isn't a 'competition', this is a forum. I'm simply saying the argument may not be totally sound in its reasoning.
I do not rely on crits at all. I can manage 60k anvils above the 40% hp threshold and I have only 12k power. It usually goes with a 40k bull charge and a 50-60k anvil both non crit. So I can constantly do the same damage pending deflect from whoever my target is and any debuffs on me or buffs on my opponent. And most of the time it is a bull charge that is what I finish my opponents with.
With the current meta of burst>dps in most cases it makes the game very narrowed and boring and makes the gf probably the most suited to it than any other class except maybe tr with SE/DC artifact. And this is spurred on by clerics giving full heals just going to a node using a couple of encounters and applying their capstone and ez full heal. Also comes from how pve was changed to also reflect this play style where most people lose almost all their hp in one or two hits.
I just want the overall damage of the class reduced and bull charge cc changed to something not so overpowered.
With the current meta of burst>dps in most cases it makes the game very narrowed and boring and makes the gf probably the most suited to it than any other class except maybe tr with SE/DC artifact.
I just want the overall damage of the class reduced and bull charge cc changed to something not so overpowered.
I think certain encounter powers (BC is an outlier for sure) need to be toned back damage-wise, the utility + damage they bring to the table is a little much. But GFs have virtually no sustained dps. Our *best* at-wills are slow and clumsy as well as almost completely pointless to use (most of the time better to simply block and wait for an encounter to come back up or a daily). A trade off should be made somewhere.
Yes, well, we aren't talking about way back when (like when GFs were terribly weak in module 3, say), but the state of affairs that exists now. And talking about BIS vs non-BIS is futile; inter-class balance is only relevant at a point where both characters are equally geared. It might be arguable that there's a gear band where GFs are better balanced than at BiS (say, 2k IL), but I doubt many try to make optimized builds for specific gear levels outside of BiS or close to BiS, so it would be rather hard to test in actuality.
I was talking about pre-mod 1 when you could get lunging strikes every 5 seconds for 24k crits with tenebrous enchants, but in any case...
Whether or not many try to make optimized builds for specific gear levels, the majority of the player base is not at the 4k item level, I can guarantee that. And for most of those people, they probably won't be for some time as well, considering steady income methods in this game are broken atm.
The GF as a class favors burst damage, because GFs lack ways to stick to the target and still do damage simultaneously. GWFs stick to their targets by means of unstoppable (can do damage while CC immune) -- TRs stick to their targets by means of stealth/disables -- HRs by means of range/disables, etc. the list goes on. These aren't gear reliant abilities. These are class mechanics. The GF still lacks a class mechanic that allows them to fight other classes without just smashing their face in within 3 seconds -- so when the devs think oh GFs need help in PvP, there are no current viable ways of improving their performance without overcompensating.
That's the fundamental problem with the GF in PvP -- it was the same problem pre-mod 1, and it's the same problem now. That's why I brought up way back when. Because it's surprisingly similar. I felt like I was hitting people with a wet towel when I first started pvping -- then once I had stalwart bulwark (timeless hero was good too once stalwart was nerfed), CN weapons, CN jewels, tenebrous enchants, I could one shot some of those same people, and 2 shot some others. The difference made by gear is just enormous for GF, because we rely so very heavily on this "can I kill this person within seconds, or will he sustain me to death" mentality.
No, that's just when the block goes back up again, waiting for the next Bull Charge. The shoe doesn't go on the other foot, because GFs can also maintain their block for very long periods of time if they are well built, and they can top it up with some occasional ITF. With an appropriate amount of Recovery, the waiting time for the next Bull Charge is fairly low in any case.
You just quoted two things that rely completely on gear, or what you called it, "well built"/"appropriate amount of X".
- give some GF dailies a cc breaker component (Fighter's Recovery and Villain's Menace are appropriate), but make it harder to sustain very long block times (at least stamina should only regenerate while not blocking) outside of speccing specifically for that and foregoing damage; this would make fights involving GFs more give-and-take, where the GF doesn't lose if he gets caught in a cc chain. (As an additional option, the effectiveness and AP cost of one of those dailies could also be lowered a bit to give more frequent access.)
Fine, but let do same to every class - remove their ability to generate stamina while Dodging/Sanctuary effect is active and give back 100% damage resistance to guard.
- give some GF dailies a cc breaker component (Fighter's Recovery and Villain's Menace are appropriate), but make it harder to sustain very long block times (at least stamina should only regenerate while not blocking) outside of speccing specifically for that and foregoing damage; this would make fights involving GFs more give-and-take, where the GF doesn't lose if he gets caught in a cc chain. (As an additional option, the effectiveness and AP cost of one of those dailies could also be lowered a bit to give more frequent access.)
Fine, but let do same to every class - remove their ability to generate stamina while Dodging/Sanctuary effect is active and give back 100% damage resistance to guard.
No other class except possibly paladin regenerates stamina while dodging/sprinting. In fact, there's a delay after dodging/sprinting before stamina begins to regenerate again. GF is the only class, possibly along with paladin, that has stamina regeneration during their shift ability.
That being said, stamina should not regen during block. However, GF base block time should be increased to compensate.
lol.And i was wondering whre the usual Gf haters were.I was searching the pvp NW threads.Nah.The AntiGF haters were none to be seen.
So i searched the forums...and voila!!!
A scrupoulous CW is here demanding a nerf to Gfs.Another hater a perma cc trapper is also here.Trapper also dictates one of his guildies to write utter nonsense.
Well...the spesific guildie plays a GF main and then wants to have HIS class nerfed.
At 4222 Il and having as teamates some of the best pvp players of the whole freaking game ,using teamspeak ,predesigned team tactics and having spesific roles in a premade and spesific position in dom maps ,i l call his opinion distorted by true reality.
Sure if you ran ITF and have combat superiority slotted and -probably-shield wrath.Using wheel of elements aand be continually buffed by a IL 4000 Dc sure you have mega damage.But that does not apply to the whole GF class for facck sake.
Any class in that IL and in the spesific position/role /team will have mega damage.The argument is invalid.Void.
As more honest and long Gf players,like damanacious and others(that respect themselves and have indivindual way of thinking and are autonomous-their posts not dictated by their guild leaders) stated GF is fine now.Gf shines in melee but he is victim to equal geared GWFs in mod6.As for ranged DPS ,GF is in disadvantage to any toon that knows to kite and keep the range(isn';t that their role?)
Example:last night dom.Two reknown Gfs in enemy team i am in the opposite.Our Midnight express GWF stays in base to protect it.GFs make a combo with a buff dc clean mid and then rush to base to challenge the GWF.The whole freaki game.Result:our GWf finished the game 21-4 ,fighting TWO toons ,GF+Dc,or GF+GF the whole freaking time.They never took our base.He annihilated them in a brutal fashion.One of the Gfs is a GF his name metioned here.As one of the best and most legendary .He never made a scratch to the GWF.We won 1000-350.
Add more:the spesific Gfs were running MfGamesys rotation:ITF bull Anvil.while with a DC combo the legendary GF was lethal.Buffs and stuns from DC make him to land all his rotation easily.Killed me in seconds.4-5 max.
faced him alone:stalemate.Or stalemate and he retreated.Nothing impressive.
Conclusion again:the "mega" (lol) damage some claim is the result of spesific rotaion and buffs plus wheel.
This is possible to land only with a premade.
With out a premade the rotation is so static and difficult to land that any ranged dps will have a a party with the "mega" hit GFS.
Anyone wants to prove me wrong?Solo queue with out Lunging and try fight random dps ranged opponentsin 3000IL+.In match, not in one vs one.Gf is toast.
What deserves a nerf is wheel of elemts and negation.
Also some SW alt here complained about GFs:For facck sake let's first your toon respect tenacity cause now HAdar's grasp encounter does not.And your phaser beams penetrate Steel defence while active.Thanks.
I put as much DPS into my G/F as possible, and trying to solo WoD is just ridiculously slow. I want to say our single target dmg (pve anyways) is the lowest in the game?
Nerf? We need more DPS...
Sick of hearing why we need a nerf because someone got wasted in PvE and comes here to whine.
I'd bet that most GFs are struggling more in PvE then tossing CW's in domination w/ Bull Charge.
I've seen these GF PvP builds, they're sick BIS (in everything) and also cost a car's down payment. So yeah, they paid to kick your butt, they're gonna kick it. Leave us scrubs to scrub our 2,7k DPS on trash mobs with 4million hitpoints to finish our dailies in under 3 hours.
GF overpowered does make me giggle we are in no way op...better hect yeah but quite frankly considering how borked our shield is (cc immune broke, damage bypassing it, looking like its up when its not, etc.) players complaining they got rickrolled by a guard who knew how to do a proper rotation is quite funny...considering the classes those complaining play and how broken they are (as in abilities doing more damage/cc than what was intended). But whatever hater's gotta hate.
Comments
All i see here is a lot of unsubstantiated complaining.
You don't provide details of your comparisons to provide others with sufficient information to make their own informed decisions and, instead, have simply created a "nerf GF" thread, which is rather sad.
Let's go through what you wrote and see where your perspective doesn't make a whole lot of sense:
In short, your points are illogical, irrelevant, have no basis in fact, are completely biased and ill-thought out, demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of a GF and seem to be nothing other than a specific attempt at 'nerfing' GFs purely because you obviously got roflstomped in PVP by a GF that was a better player than you.
Please wipe your tears, put on a brave face, show some courage and consider learning from someone how to play better.
It's easy to surround and murder a GF compared to an OP. The GF needs something to bring in pvp because the OP does a better job at what the old pvp GF used to do.
Besides, they still do a poor job of handling trappers and TRs. They can't take down BiS GWFs. The OP is a whole different ball game. Not a freakin thing can bring them down less it's 5 people at once. They need damage when they're completely outclassed by OPs defensively.
Their gap closer cream of the crop bull charge is predictable as anything else if not more than anything else. It only takes 2 people to bait them out of guard then they're wide open.
I tried PVP w/ a GF. TR stayed perma-steath and dazed me forever when it ran out.
CW tossed me around like a ball.
GWF is a D&D bezerker on crack and loves pain. While unstoppable, you might as well throw grapes at them.
Leave the class alone, well, fix the block and DR bugs first
[PvP] Balance
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/555275/pvp-balance
I recently respec'd my CW to a control build, and it's a lot of fun. I can completely lock down other players.
[PvP] DC ridiculously OP
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/550651/pvp-dc-ridiculously-op
DCs are *SO* OP right now that a 14k DC with 32k HP can just sit in an empowered astral shield and get one-shot by a TR.
GF Broken
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/542939/gf-broken
The buffs to GFs are absolutely silly.
[PvP] TR Reveal
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/559063/pvp-tr-reveal
Whatever happened to the two second stealth reveal on attack. Ever since the patch, I've been repeatedly killed by TRs I've never even had the chance to see, but it was not mentioned in the patch notes. What's up with that?
— (The unwritten rule)
Then your build is wrong or your playing it wrong, Dom one of the top pvp GFs will tell you flat a well played and geared OP is 100% unkillable by a GF.
My main is a GF I am on the Same lvl as Dom, Azrael and Druss the Legend I have met more than a few OP that I could not kill even if they didn't fight back and that was using Wheel.
Sorry my friend your doing something wrong, you need to fix your build for pvp or both.
Busted. Nice catch dfnce.
I really don't like forum posts from people that play ONE class but complain in another class's section.
Was the OP around when the GF was a sad knight wearing plate armor that couldn't crack a walnut much less do any damage to mobs or bosses? Methinks not.
under construction...
I saw a pack of TRs/CWs team up on 1 OP and he was laughing off the damage. He never went below 25% health with an army on him!
The vid was shot by one of the TRs in full orange/teal.
I was actually shocked.
Please watch some of these videos before yammering about nerfing a class that's already on the pve unemployment line because you got bu...pride-hurt in PVP by a whale-pack.
Call me selfish, but I kind of hope the OPs get new attention like the SW did because they're living the dream.
I was so jealous watching that.
We're like the fat little dwarf kids that want to be called in on the kick ball game.
really?
Funny
Urlord
I have been playing GF from beta.
I've been for a long time, avoiding to create a GF (I had all classes before it, made a second TR before my GF even, I really DIDNT want to create one, I was just too bored to avoid it any further. lol)
Anyways, since I saw they had a Damage buff, I thought I should try one now, if anything, at least in order to get to know the class itself (I PvP a lot). I have to say, if you get to Page 3 on Lv60+ NCL with blue PvP gear and a couple rank5, 6's, while plowing most people in a 3-move-combo, I'd say at least the CC+Damage point he made, is at least HALF viable.
Let's get real, here, close the gap after Bull Charge? Just walk to the dude (LOL I'm serious), or just drop a Flourish right after, and Anvil at the end, boom, dead.
even people with more gear/boons than me, got screwed up on 2 rotations, (namely quite decent CW's with Shield on tab, even). so the damage boost was a bit too much, I'd say.
CC chains are quite easy to achieve but you do need to know what works where, and what does what, so its not unusual to see scrubby GFs get a couple good shots off on some better geared chars, but I guess sheer dumb luck can also count as skill (lol). I'll give you this: CC chains are easy, but you need to know them and the class you're playing against, so, there's a point on both sides. Also, there's classes with way more CC, for example, if Harrowstorm worked as it should, SW's would have a prone as well, making them as much of a threat as any GF, maybe even more, because SW's are ranged, so, there's that, too.
As far as DR/Shield block/CC imunnity, Block is not 360º, anyone with 2fingers worth of brain would know that you never seek to attack a GF from the front/sides... And even if you do, and you have quick damage dealing powers (ex. a TR's flurry or the DoT stacks from the SWs), you can burn down their block quite fast making them vulnerable as hell, cuz even with high defense and bulkiness, you cant have it all, if you specced to kill (DPS route) you will be easier to kill as well and if you spec to tank, you wont kill anyone in one rotation, its all about the build you have and the knowledge you have.
I agree they buffed the class a bit too much, but I also think they really needed it, they're probably the most neglected class of the game, since launch.
totally agreed to this, my OP is lv70, is half decently geared and competes easily with well geared/booned players in more-than-one vs me situations. You're most likely playing your class wrong.
Also, OP's "shield" is better than the GF's (CC imunity, heal and damage reduction), so dont even try to tell me that he was a monster, if you specced to tank/heal propperly, you could handle him easy in 1v1, you might not have killed him, but he wouldnt kill you either.
The poster above you is one of the best if not the best GF in the game atm, and plays with and against top players in the game.
The GF class is a "burst your opponent down in seconds or fail to do so and slowly be killed" class in PvP right now. And if you bursted the opponent down, you probably busted the other guy's head in with an anvil crit for half his health. But if you didn't, the shoe's on the other foot. This isn't a 'competition', this is a forum. I'm simply saying the argument may not be totally sound in its reasoning.
With the current meta of burst>dps in most cases it makes the game very narrowed and boring and makes the gf probably the most suited to it than any other class except maybe tr with SE/DC artifact. And this is spurred on by clerics giving full heals just going to a node using a couple of encounters and applying their capstone and ez full heal. Also comes from how pve was changed to also reflect this play style where most people lose almost all their hp in one or two hits.
I just want the overall damage of the class reduced and bull charge cc changed to something not so overpowered.
I think certain encounter powers (BC is an outlier for sure) need to be toned back damage-wise, the utility + damage they bring to the table is a little much. But GFs have virtually no sustained dps. Our *best* at-wills are slow and clumsy as well as almost completely pointless to use (most of the time better to simply block and wait for an encounter to come back up or a daily). A trade off should be made somewhere.
I was talking about pre-mod 1 when you could get lunging strikes every 5 seconds for 24k crits with tenebrous enchants, but in any case...
Whether or not many try to make optimized builds for specific gear levels, the majority of the player base is not at the 4k item level, I can guarantee that. And for most of those people, they probably won't be for some time as well, considering steady income methods in this game are broken atm.
The GF as a class favors burst damage, because GFs lack ways to stick to the target and still do damage simultaneously. GWFs stick to their targets by means of unstoppable (can do damage while CC immune) -- TRs stick to their targets by means of stealth/disables -- HRs by means of range/disables, etc. the list goes on. These aren't gear reliant abilities. These are class mechanics. The GF still lacks a class mechanic that allows them to fight other classes without just smashing their face in within 3 seconds -- so when the devs think oh GFs need help in PvP, there are no current viable ways of improving their performance without overcompensating.
That's the fundamental problem with the GF in PvP -- it was the same problem pre-mod 1, and it's the same problem now. That's why I brought up way back when. Because it's surprisingly similar. I felt like I was hitting people with a wet towel when I first started pvping -- then once I had stalwart bulwark (timeless hero was good too once stalwart was nerfed), CN weapons, CN jewels, tenebrous enchants, I could one shot some of those same people, and 2 shot some others. The difference made by gear is just enormous for GF, because we rely so very heavily on this "can I kill this person within seconds, or will he sustain me to death" mentality.
You just quoted two things that rely completely on gear, or what you called it, "well built"/"appropriate amount of X".
— (The unwritten rule)
No other class except possibly paladin regenerates stamina while dodging/sprinting. In fact, there's a delay after dodging/sprinting before stamina begins to regenerate again. GF is the only class, possibly along with paladin, that has stamina regeneration during their shift ability.
That being said, stamina should not regen during block. However, GF base block time should be increased to compensate.
This absolutly will kill GF in PVE
So i searched the forums...and voila!!!
A scrupoulous CW is here demanding a nerf to Gfs.Another hater a perma cc trapper is also here.Trapper also dictates one of his guildies to write utter nonsense.
Well...the spesific guildie plays a GF main and then wants to have HIS class nerfed.
At 4222 Il and having as teamates some of the best pvp players of the whole freaking game ,using teamspeak ,predesigned team tactics and having spesific roles in a premade and spesific position in dom maps ,i l call his opinion distorted by true reality.
Sure if you ran ITF and have combat superiority slotted and -probably-shield wrath.Using wheel of elements aand be continually buffed by a IL 4000 Dc sure you have mega damage.But that does not apply to the whole GF class for facck sake.
Any class in that IL and in the spesific position/role /team will have mega damage.The argument is invalid.Void.
As more honest and long Gf players,like damanacious and others(that respect themselves and have indivindual way of thinking and are autonomous-their posts not dictated by their guild leaders) stated GF is fine now.Gf shines in melee but he is victim to equal geared GWFs in mod6.As for ranged DPS ,GF is in disadvantage to any toon that knows to kite and keep the range(isn';t that their role?)
Example:last night dom.Two reknown Gfs in enemy team i am in the opposite.Our Midnight express GWF stays in base to protect it.GFs make a combo with a buff dc clean mid and then rush to base to challenge the GWF.The whole freaki game.Result:our GWf finished the game 21-4 ,fighting TWO toons ,GF+Dc,or GF+GF the whole freaking time.They never took our base.He annihilated them in a brutal fashion.One of the Gfs is a GF his name metioned here.As one of the best and most legendary
Add more:the spesific Gfs were running MfGamesys rotation:ITF bull Anvil.while with a DC combo the legendary GF was lethal.Buffs and stuns from DC make him to land all his rotation easily.Killed me in seconds.4-5 max.
faced him alone:stalemate.Or stalemate and he retreated.Nothing impressive.
Conclusion again:the "mega" (lol) damage some claim is the result of spesific rotaion and buffs plus wheel.
This is possible to land only with a premade.
With out a premade the rotation is so static and difficult to land that any ranged dps will have a a party with the "mega" hit GFS.
Anyone wants to prove me wrong?Solo queue with out Lunging and try fight random dps ranged opponentsin 3000IL+.In match, not in one vs one.Gf is toast.
What deserves a nerf is wheel of elemts and negation.
Also some SW alt here complained about GFs:For facck sake let's first your toon respect tenacity cause now HAdar's grasp encounter does not.And your phaser beams penetrate Steel defence while active.Thanks.
Nerf? We need more DPS...
Sick of hearing why we need a nerf because someone got wasted in PvE and comes here to whine.
I'd bet that most GFs are struggling more in PvE then tossing CW's in domination w/ Bull Charge.
I've seen these GF PvP builds, they're sick BIS (in everything) and also cost a car's down payment. So yeah, they paid to kick your butt, they're gonna kick it. Leave us scrubs to scrub our 2,7k DPS on trash mobs with 4million hitpoints to finish our dailies in under 3 hours.