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Time for a Shift in the Paradigm
legion10398
Member Posts: 79 Arc User
in The Library
Since open beta, CWs have been playing thaumaturge and renegade, with a focus on maximum aoe damage. That worked for 5 modules. Now, with the introduction of hard content, classes like GF have begun to play as true tanks because of necessity. Classes like DC are almost exclusively running supportive builds, with an emphasis on defends as well. However, CWs have continued with our DPS builds, forcing other classes like HR to sacrifice damage for control. I say it is time for a shift in the paradigm. It is time we started looking at things like a MoF oppressor with a focus on debuffing and control. I say it is time to give up our transcendent vorpals and trade them in for transcendent plague fires, or even beg for buffs to frost enchantments for control. I think renegade and thaumaturge still deserve a place in a party, especially in PvP, but the other classes need our help. You can look on the forums. I have seen posts in class feedback threads stating that things get much easier with a CW. Why? Not because of our damage; as unbelievable as it may seem, we are actually not the best at that anymore. GWFs are as good at aoe as we ever were, and TRs are better at single-target. They want us for our control. So let's give it to them. If we can have an impact now, imagine what it would be like if we actually prioritized control! The new content is difficult. That is irrefutable. But there is no reason a diverse party at the minimum required item level shouldn't be able to complete it. We just have to play smart, and fulfilled our role to the best of our ability. Thank you.
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Though by the time people outgear this content, control, tanking and healing won't be as needed again. Who knows, maybe it will take a module or two this time.
Focusing on JUST control or JUST damage or JUST buffs is bad.
This simply isn't true. I would guess that "most" CWs are playing my Renegade build (or some sort of variation on it. And it's not a "maximum AOE damage" build. It's a team oriented build designed to help maximize the speed and efficiency of groups in dungeons. It's not a max DPS build. It's not a solo-dailies build. It's not a PvP build. It's a team focused PvE dungeon build.
I understand we're not the clear winner in an all out DPS race. It's why I created and posted my Renegade build over 6 months ago. Despite the tongue-and-cheek intro, it's a build that's meant to maximize our best assets: Control. Damage. Buffs.
And directly to that point, what's the hardest part of the dungeon? It's not the trash, it's the bosses.
And in T1 dungeons, all the final bosses are single target fights that require ZERO CC. Lostmauth? Valindra? Fulminorax? There's no CC needed. So when you cut your damage by 50-80% to go Oppressor, you're only a drag on the group when it comes to the hardest part of the dungeon.
And then in T2's? Syndryth, Marrowslake and Blackdagger? At any given time, there's only a handful of adds up. And these adds need to be CC'd and burned down as quickly as possible, then you return DPS to the boss. But let me be clear here...CC...AND...burned. If you can't do both as a CW, you're letting the team down.
Anyone who's finishing T2 dungeons understands this. People who are struggling to consistently clear dungeons don't. Yet they're the people who seem to someone advocate for gimpy their CW by going all in on the Oppressor tree.
(1) A renegade CW is a party support build. It's one of the best support builds in the game.
(2) Are you implying that it's wrong to "force" HR's to sacrifice damage in order to gain more control? Yet, you think CW's should sacrifice damage to get more control?
In PvE, the oppressor is an excellent build for soloing very difficult mobs such as some epic heroic encounters.
But there is a problem ....
heroic encounters have timers.
If you try to solo an epic heroic encounter, even if your oppressor CW can survive, you will often run out of time.
My trapper HR is able to solo better than my renegade CW.
Recently, I took my trapper HR into well of dragons to solo some epic HE's.
I was able to survive some mobs which would eventually kill my CW.
However .... there was not enough time.
To summarize, low dps and high control is often not viable for soloing because fights last too long.
And in groups, you don't need to maximize control if another player is also doing control.
In dungeons, as long as more than one player does some control, that's usually enough.
There are very few situations in pve in which an oppressor CW is actually needed.
In groups, I like to fight very close with my CW: icy terrain and shield on tab.
If another CW uses conduit of ice on tab, the mobs will freeze almost as fast an oppressor CW.
Two CW's alternating steal time and occasionally freezing mobs and occasional dailies is a lot of control, even if neither are oppressor. One trapper HR and the mob can be perma rooted (or almost perma rooted). Once the mob is perma rooted, all that is left to do is dps and heal through any incoming damage. Renegade has both dps and heals. A good trapper HR will be spamming fox cunning which means many attacks wont even hurt you. All that is left to do is dps.
Get in line.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
First of all, yes I have recently been playing more GF and HR. However, I have been playing for years... I have had every class at 60 since Mod 2 (excluding SW and OP, I only got those to 60 when they were released). Now I have 3 70s, HR, GF, and CW. Don't ever tell me I don't know anything about CW.
To answer #1, I cannot deny that. I misspoke a little. Thaumaturges are more the problem, but even renegades lose a lot of party support when they play SS. I think either a renegade with icy veins or an oppressor with spell twisting would be optimal right now, but for party support MoF is a better paragon. For number 2, yes. HRs deserve to be allowed to go for full dps, that is their role. A control wizard shouldn't sacrifice all control for damage when teamwork is necessary. I may have been a little too brash, but I think the most important thing that I'm trying to say is that teamwork is necessary, and that the majority of CWs I see in-game care more about paingiver than anything else. I think Chem's comprehensive CW guide from Mod 4 is still highly relevant and a great read. He says it better than I do, but my idea is the same. That's what I meant with this post.
The only difference between SS and MoF is the +20% damage buff from SoD, but that's it. MoF isn't bringing anything else fresh to the table, and they sacrifice A LOT of damage to do it.
And second point, Spell Twisting significantly improves the CC ability of CW's. It's not obvious, but faster cooldowns means higher up-time on you CC spells, and more casts, which also means more AP generation, which means more dailies. Spell Twisting improves both DPS AND CC. Icy Veins has a) and incredibly short range and b) is overkill on the freeze stacks for the most part.
Between CoI, IT and CC with the Artifact Power, you can chill stuff extremely quickly.
Read Chem's guide. He explains it far better than I could. Also, I know what spell twisting does.
So after re-reading both of Chem's Guides (skimmed them) you and him are making no complete sense. In his MOF guide (someone correct me if I'm wrong) he even advises MOF users to go for damage over CC.
I dunno where you've been on the forums but I've seen both in and out of game that people like the versatile-ness of a Rene CW or Thaum/Oppress.
You say prioritize control but Ironzerg pretty much explained out CC for us is useless. But we have a lot at our disposal too. Which he also explains.
Just to ask you why can't we do both? I've ran into some CW's like myself that are Thaum/Oppressor who can control mobs and do good a mount of damage. Sure we aren't top of the charts but we do dance pretty well between CC and DPS.
Why make a post saying lets have one giant renaissance? Yes CC would be nice, but make it worth wild. Again Ironzerg explained this.
What party support does Thaum lose? Matter a fact why target thaum at all? Yes we lose a bit of damage in comparison, but we are still viable.
If control is what you want to talk about look at HR's. They are awesome and single target, but they have way better CC than we do if you've noticed. But I don't see you on their forums talking about how HR should just be single target. Kinda ironic don't you think?
This isn't an our right attack at you but I am going to point out how contradictory this is. For a while MMO's allow players to dual role and play how they want. I've stated this in other threads. CC our primary role, but if someone wants to do damage let them. Don't take that away. And for CC to be useful you have to give us a situation to use it or at least make it strong for us to use. You know and actual point. There was a thread that showed how OPP was really good in PVP. Great example there. It wasn't someone saying hey give this up and do this, it was someone giving an alternative.
And sorry for the double post, but you saying just read chem's guide and not articulating what he said in your own words kinda gives off the impression even more of you being a troll than actually playing the class. Just another person who doesn'tlike CW's.
Chemboy was awesome at theorycrafting, and we had some really good times putting stuff together. When he started talking about the viability of the MoF, I was one of his biggest supporters, and together we built a pretty compelling case for how powerful the MoF paragon path could be...over a year and a half ago. Unfortunately, a lot has changed with Module's 4/5/6 and much of what Chem wrote in his guides is out of date. Look at that post. It's from October 2014, and many of the guides he was linking to are older than that.
But even to that end, his MoF builds were focused on DPS...they were meant to be boss killers, not trash focused. It's honestly where I learned a lot about build philosophy. It's why I build for the team, and to kill bosses. Not waste time CCing trash mobs, which are insignificant.
No one has trouble with trash. There's no point in crafting builds that excel on trash, but fall apart on bosses. And unfortunately, that's what you're suggesting CWs do.
EDIT: It's also why ultimately Paingiver is silly...that basically says "I'm the best at killing the trash". They should adjust Paingiver so it only measures the total damage done in a boss fight...then we'd really see some people shift their paradigm.
What kind of problems?
How does a CW sacrifice all control for damage? Nearly every power we have has control in it. Do you with CWs who try to clear trash using only CoI off tab, shield, unfeated sudden storm and disintegrate?
Are you saying that DPS is not team work?
The other night we were having problems with the Storm callers at the GWD boss, so I slotted Orb, changed my OH bonus to Orb, and only used powers that gave me more CC than damage: CS, EF, IT. I did far better with my normal line up.
If you want to go full control, have at it. WE don't care. But don't tell us how to play, especially when you try to make us less effective.
Well, I guess I'll just play my Oppressor with spell twisting. I personally prefer turning all the mobs into popsicles when I play CW, and when I play other classes, I just tend to find having them not attacking me because they can't a nice way to let me blast through to dungeons. And about HR, the CC isn't really better, the damage in dungeons is no better, and they are meant to be more of an AoE CC class. I have problems with HR as well. However, when I go on the forums there to talk about it, I don't have people telling me to get off the forum or go back to whatever forum I came from. I don't get that anywhere else.
And CWs are supposed to be an AoE DPS class. It's right in the description.
What do you expect coming to a forum where 90% of the time other people from other class forums come here to bash you because of how your class is?
Like I said. I have no problem with people wanting to play CW as a CC class that's fine. But pushing that belief on everyone isn't right. I like playing Thaum/Oppressor with spell twisting and Icy veins. It works for me. Other people like straight CC or only damage. Yes there needs to be a someone in groups doing CC along with a standard healer and tank. But in our situation as CW's doing CC right now it's kinda pointless. Because of our moves we can cover more mobs.So if we have the damage to kill them lets do it. Lets not hinder the party in a since were all we do is CC and the mobs are still alive. It's one thing to CC, but only CC and do no sort of damage is kinda pointless. Hence why I myself went for Thaum/Oppress because I can do that.
In addition, I notice that monsters seem to have less CC resistance.
Now is the time to increase dps, not decrease it.
My DC is already back to wearing high prophet for doing daily quests.
May switch my CW back to high vizier for daily quests. Will test that right now.
1.
I'm now at 99% Control Bonus for PvE and having experimented in epic dungeons I'd say the CC itself is pretty much satisafctory. There are some mobs that seem to have way higher CC resist than others by default (for example the big, red drakes that spin around when angry), but other than those, even dungeon grade mobs are now held for satisfactory durations, meaning: "significantly longer than any DPS CW would hold epic-dungeon mobs"
Of course, with the current way how NW depicts its mobs (how they attack, how they fight, etc etc..) it is undeniable that for PvE purposes DPS CWs are the more "general option". Currently no one denies this (at least, not me). Generally a DPS CW will fit every given choice of dungeon maps to run.
2.
Compared to DPS-CWs, admittedly a CC-CW in PvE is more of a "fifth wheel" (or maybe a 3rd wheel, if you prefer motorcycles
Compared to stuff like that, NW has very sluggish NPC/mobs with slow reactions and not very proactive power use, and the devs chose to simply increase the damage/HP level of mobs in a linear fashion to increase difficulty, instead of making the mobs too "smart." This means that as soon as the tank holds total control over the aggro, most of the threatening mob attacks can be easily telegraphed through "red circles", and the rest of the group would hardly be of in any big danger so long as this state can be maintained. So in essence a higher average DPS of the team would be of better benefit to NW dungeons.
3.
Without any intent for disrespect, I will simply go so far as to comment that things would have been very different if the NPC/mob reaction was 'smarter' -- in this case, I do have the opinion that the mobs in CoH/V were much more versatile, threatening, faster, variety of powers and had better programming overall.
This meant that even with a perfect plan, often things would go wrong and haywire as mobs start to react in an unexpected manner -- in which case one of the few, working methods that could stabilize the situation was through CCs, and a variety of them. Many impromptu solutions, immediate and fast reactions from CC-wielding classes would do all kinds of cool stuff like 'herding' the mobs into a wall/corner to make it easy to contain them... pulling off multi-tasking stunts like constantly pushing back a powerful melee mob, while simultaneously maintaining a hold on a powerful ranged mob, so the team can more easily focus the priority target... there were a lot of creative solutions.
Again, I hold no disrespect for DPS builds. All I want to say is unlike how DPS simply proves its worth through objective numbers which can be directly interpreted as contribution, CCs are only effective as its player. The more creative and proactive the wielder is, the more clearly you can see the effects of CC which does not simply present itself in objective numbers. There's no points or score that shows up how many times you've controlled through a situation, saved someone, or made it significantly easy and pleasant for your team to fight.
Therefore, I would like to point out that there is a possibility that many of you might not be noticing how much you benefit from CC-heavy/support builds, mainly because there are so few of us around in the first place, as well as noneof our real effects have a track record that can be showed-off like "Paingiver" or something.
4.
Just for an example, the eCC run I had last night with my guildies. Even with them being my guildies, I don't think any of them really understood how much of help I was in that run. They just laughed and joked around about how my DPS count was lower than the DC. Yes, under common sense of NW, a CW with a DPS that is lower than a DC is unacceptable. But if only, there was someone who understood that what I did was...
(1) I gathered the mobs up nicely into a confined area to help it easier to land AoE attacks
(2) held all major lieutenant grade mobs as main focal point for stunning, while at the same time freezing up trash mobs
(3) prevented so many 'red-circle moments' with CCs at the last minute
(4) perma-repel/freezing/holding 3 of the 5 "rival adventurer group" opponents to a corner while the rest of the team focused the other two down
...like said, the powers I use for these tasks are generally low damage, and there's no way you can expect someone using the 3-basic CC powers of repel, EF, IcyTerrain to do more DPS than other people.
Now, like I said before, I already know that in NW, just a straigh-DPS nuking would do better overall good for the team. I'm nost saying the above tasks I've carried out would be of more help to other teams in epic dungeons. The whole point of this is really that it is an alternative, not as effective, but it works, and in many cases would surprise you if you were subtle enough to realize that its going on.
Like said, under how currently the game is set up, CCs are lower in priority to DPS in PvE. Unless they change something significantly, this probably won't change. But it would be nice if some of you could realize and acknowledge that PvE doesn't always necessarily have to be availble exclusively to only those with the best setups and best methods. There can be a bit less effective, but still more or less viable options, and these deserve a chance, too.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That's great, but I can do 90% of that on my Renegade CW and still bring substantial DPS to the table. That's the point I'm trying to make.
People are arguing extremes here that don't really exist. You can't go all out DPS on a CW, given that some of our best DPS spells carry a big control component along with it.
Like your example with the "Rival Adventurer Party". That's nice that you held 3 in the corner while your group focused the other three down. But when I run with my guild, we just pull all five together, and there's enough CC between Steal Time, Icy Terrain/CoI and Oppressive Force to keep them essentially locked down while we burn them.
Just...doing less damage than a healing DC IS a drag on the party.
Pretty much spot on here. If you rotate your skills correctly then you can pretty much come close to or perma freeze mobs while burning them.
I'm glad someone else believes a fully CC-support class is viable and a good idea.
Oh yeah? I believe he said in his first point that he holds mobs "significantly longer than any DPS CW would hold epic-dungeon mobs". The truth is I don't think you fully realize how long mobs can be held.
However, I do have to say you hit upon the biggest issue with CWs right now. They need to have a split between control powers and damage powers. If their damage powers were, say, fire and lightning based, while their control powers were more ice-based, I think we could get a clear split. But you will continue to argue that playing a DPS CW is fine because you still have CC. And I can see that, I just wish you realized how much more CC you can have. I don't necessarily think CWs should have all their damage or all their CC taken away, I just think it should be more obvious the difference between a striker CW and a controller CW. Also, you are referencing the fact his guildies were joking about him being bad on the Paingiver charts. In reality, if they wanted to really have a real competition, it should be based on:
1. Damage done
2. Damage taken
3. Damage increase of others from debuffs
4. Damage taken decrease of others from buffs
5. Hitpoints healed
6. Damage not done by monsters due to CC
This would actually determine who was most useful in dungeons. Of course, that's not how it works. But don't take paingiver seriously. It's not about that. Have fun with it if you want, and keep track of it if you want (I do, I like the competition on my striker characters). But don't ever say doing less damage than someone else is a drag on the party until you take into account all the factors in the situation. Just saying.
Exactly. And I've been a student of the CW for over two and half years, and I've tested this extensively.
I've done countless hours of dungeon parsing, testing on dummies and I've respec probably 50+ times on Live, and hundreds and hundreds of times on the test server.
And taking all those six points that YOU laid out into consideration, this is (in my humble opinion) the optimal build for CW's right now who are primarily doing PvE and epic dungeon content.
But it wasn't all that way, and it won't always be that way. Things are going to change, which is also part of the fun of an MMO (at least for me). We'll see what class changes Mod 7 and Mod 8 bring.
Not really, no.
It can be said that in this case, the better the team is prepared, approaching close to an "ideal team composition" whether be it from class composition, or the average IL level of the party (or preferably both), obviously the amount of CCs that I would be dealing can be considered an "overkill". Needless to say, when everyone is well prepared, you don't need as much CC as I have. I'm not denying that.
In all honesty it is very much more likely that often you run with a very well prepared team composition, which would probably be able to easily proceed the content even with the amount of limited CCs a DPS centered build can bring. In that sense, yes, you can do 90% of what is needed because the need itself is very low. That doesn't mean the amount of CCs you bring on the table, actually reaches 90% of what I can do.
Now, of course, I fully understand and acknowledge that under the current meta of PvE the DPS path of CWs are clearly the more efficient choice. I am simply saying despite lesser in efficiency, the CC path can be a less efficient, but still viable alternative. It's not if there's a timer on how fast you have to clear something.
But then put yourself in a less capable party where none of the people around you are as well equipped and experienced as you or your guildies, and where the total amount of CCs that can be provided from others is not enough due to having different range of classes then you usually run along with. How do you think you will be able to burn them down so easily when most of the people are just busy trying to move away from gigantic red circles in the first place? This part of eCC is actually one of the first "snags" a bunch of fledgling PvErs run into, since a lack of experience and coordination can quickly make things go ugly, as you probably already know.
It is sort of a "disaster/emergency" situation where none of your familiar tactics are available, and examples like these, would be a nice showcase of difference what the DPS CWs cannot do, whereas the CC CW can.
Again, I'm trying to be very careful here. I'm not using this to justify an argument where I claim that my choice of going CCs in any way superior to every other CWs tha chose to be more centered on DPS. I am simply saying that despite the current conditions and environment which make CC-centered choices not as preferable and universal as the common CW builds, it is simply an alternative that can still work well if you don't always have every ideal option available to you when you're about to run a dungeon content.
Hence, in my case, I would like to encourage people to try different builds, and would like to tell those who might want different things that it could work if you really want it, instead of everyone whose never even tried it raining down on those people and saying things like "don't gimp yourself" or etc..
That's all I see in this -- and acknowledgement as an alternative. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
To the biggest fear of FOTM players and dpsmongers: Nerfs come and go by dps classes. In mod6 maybe you are up and in mod7 maybe you are down...
Trapper HRs are immensely more useful and popular in lfg channels than archery. So you get into parties much faster than with archery. And their survivability is better too.
That being said, it's where I find being able to provide a strong balance of buffs, control and damage is essential.
For example, let's take your Oppressor build. Great control right? But outside of that, what does it offer the party? Not much.
Whereas in the Renegade build, it's chocked full of buffs that are going to help that amazing party be even better, but it's going to substantially bring up the power of lower geared players.
Things you don't have when you're an Oppressor:
1) Nightmare Wizardry. This debuff basically guarantees parties are going to have maximum up time on Combat Advantage, which is a SUBSTANTIAL buff to all your damage. And it's automatic, so less geared players can worry more about themselves, and not about trying to risk getting hit to stay in optimal CA positions. And the damage bonus from CA is +15% plus bonus...and most classes will have a bonus tacked on to that. So that can be anywhere from 20-50% increase in damage right there.
2) Uncertain Allegiance. Again, flat +5% chance to crit. It's a straight bonus for everyone, and is a big boost to lower geared players. For players without any additional crit severity, it's another 3.75% boost to damage (plus any other bonuses people get when they crit themselves, which could be substantial).
3) Chaos Magic. Another big one. One boost is 30% damage. Another is 30% Armor Pen and 30% Crit Chance. And the last one, is substantially healing which is always useful. But even on the damage bonuses alone, assume a 33% uptime. That's 10% damage plus the value of Crit/Armor Pen which could combine for another 18%+ extra damage, depending on how far below the Armor Pen cap a player is.
Those three very common buffs alone are adding at least +50% to the DPS of the party. And even more to a highly geared party. That's pretty amazing, especially when it comes time to burn bosses after you clear trash.
So it cuts right to the core of the question "What is the point of CC?" Well, what is the point?
It's to disable the enemies so that you can kill them. But what are you ultimately trying to do? Keep them CC'd or kill them?
Kill them, right? You don't get any reward for CCing a mob.
So the optimal solution is to maximize the time that they are CC'd and minimize the time they're alive. Or in other words, you want to minimize the amount of time a threat is active.
It doesn't matter if you can keep a target locked down for 10 seconds, if it takes your group 15 seconds to kill it. It's more optimal for you to lock down a target for 4 seconds, and have the group able to kill it in 5. That's the what my aim is.
And it becomes even more apparent when you can't contribute anything during boss battles, where the main boss is CC immune. That's another big part of knock against CC heavy builds. You're most useful clearing trash (which is easy any way you slice it) and least useful during the bosses, which is the hardest part and the part where you drag the group down.
Unless you can tell me what the benefit of having a low DPS/high CC Oppressor is in fights like Lostmauth, Valindra, Fulminorax (which are key fights because as T1 bosses, you have generally the lowest geared groups fighting them) or even the T2 fights which have only small numbers of adds up at a time (which need to ultimately die quick), I'm not going to be convinced that a CC heavy CW build is all that useful to a party, versus a CW that brings high levels of damage, buffs AND CC.
Sure, you can play any way you want...but if you want to promote a paradigm shift, you have to demonstrate the practical effectiveness of your build beyond just back and forth in a thread.
And this is one instance where it's great to be a jack of all trades and not just an ace of 1.
I was talking to another person yesterday who's Thaum/Oppressor like myself who presented more or less the same argument here. Our builds don't have any party centered buffs or debuffs. We pretty much are mainly DPS with some CC just in case for emergency. And it works. If there's a mob we can hold for a quick 5 seconds while someone picks another person up fine. Or if we need to freeze a great deal of mobs in eCC. Example would be if the room right before the second boss fight; you pull the entire room, normally I can freeze everything on contact, follow up with OF, steal time, and sudden storm refresh stacks. By time that happens, along with the dps myself and others do, that whole room is dead within about 15-25 seconds. I'm (and anyone else like me) is able to help the tank pull everything together, keep it in a tight area and just burn all the mobs down. So in that since it DOES help. And you have that extra bit of a security window while handing a room that large.
Being just straight Opp, again, yeah we can freeze everything for a good period of time. But out side of that we aren't adding to the over all DPS of a party. Which in all actuality does not help. Take the second boss fight in eCC for example. And we set up the party: Tank/healer/CW/GWF/HR just to example. If we are full CC and doing less damage than the healer, and you have one of the other two dps doing the majority of the dps, that's not helping the team. If anything it's hurting it. Not only are all the mobs spread out and frozen, but the dps might just be focused on ONE mob at a time. Which for that battle isn't good. You want to burn everything at once. Not just have one boss frozen here, one frozen here, and no damage to them. It just draws out the fight. Now if we can combined out dps with a bit of a CC it helps. The party has the standard 3 person dps all doing damage on all the mobs, but with the help of the CW grouping everything together.
Again jack of ALL trades, not just the ace of one (or none in this case)
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Chaos_Magic
Chaos Magic is actually slightly better than what you wrote
(1) straight-up party heal (equal to 2.5 x 20 x weapon damage of renegade CW)
(2) +30% armor pen and +30% critical chance
(3) +30% damage and + 10% life steal chance
To clarify, the increase in life steal chance is NOT +10% life steal.
It is +10% added to your normal life steal chance.
For example: If your normal life steal chance is 5%, then 5% + 10% = 15% total life steal chance.
You can check this by looking at your character sheet when chaos magic procs.
2 out of 3 Chaos magics give more healing. This is very significant.
According to information available about strongholds, there will be heroic encounters to complete in order to upgrade/maintain the stronghold.
I spend approximately half or more of my in-game time doing heroic encounters, ever since they first appeared in IceWind Dale. I consider myself to be an expert on HE's. From my experience, the CW renegade is possibly the most useful class/build in a heroic encounter which contains a large number of monsters that must be killed. For heroic encounters with dragons, little or no control is needed, and I prefer to play my buff/debuff/dps DC (in old T1 high prophet) because the single target damage boost is consistently high.
I enjoy playing my trapper HR in HE's but he has no group buffs except for combat advantage which the party may already have. He is good at soloing HE's and good at surviving but other than that, the CW renegade and buff/debuff/dps DC are overall much more beneficial to the party. Chaos magic has a huge radius, and as far as I know, has either no target limit, or a very high target limit. I have duo'ed many HE's in icewind dale, my CW doing control/healing/dps and sometimes tanking a little (shield on tab). My favorite duo partner is a dps GWF with lostmauth set. The monsters melt like butter.
Renegade CW can control and heal at the same time. But DC control is weak and controlling/healing at the same time is pretty much impossible for a DC.
No one ever said "Good job, you kept things manageable". All I ever heard was "Your damage sucks".
In the past two years I've run Thaum,Opp and Renegade. My personal experience is the party wants damage and until end bosses can be controlled not much is gonna change.