Elven Battle is currently bugged and reduces Into The Fray duration, which is a core encounter for nearly every top GF. So you won't see many GFs using it, until they fix it.
Since my post seemed to get skipped over. Ill post it again.
The BIGGEST issue with Negation and Elven is the fact they have NO "downtime". ALL other enchants with the exception of Briar (which is worthless) have downtime. THAT is what makes them balanced and maybe even under perform!
So INSTEAD of "nerf this nerf that etc" what SHOULD be done is propose a "downtime" to these enchants.
So here an EN EXAMPLE:
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
Since my post seemed to get skipped over. Ill post it again.
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
THIS is how you balance them.
+1
i think DEV can look into this...
both strong enchnt elven and negation need downtime..yes ..cant agree more...
WoW is a game that ran for 11 years and still running, with 3~4 major expansions and went through major GFX updates because the game ran for so long... and you're quoting "vanilla" era of that game as a reference to support your claims? I've played WoW from the Burning Crusade to the Cataclysm era, been with a major arena-PvP group within my server so don't think I don't know how WoW CC works.
WoW CCs last on average between 4 to 6 seconds, the longest running upto 8 or even 10. They have diminishing returns on same CC types but only because the average duration is much longer than what we have in NW, and cycling through different CC types is an easy and legit way to bypass the diminishing returns and there actually are classes that have such multiple assortment of CCs.
Tell me how that applies as a comparison to NW.
I brought up Vanilla WoW specifically to point out a factually inaccurate statement... which was quoted and specifically referenced by saying "This is a factually inaccurate statement." You specifically claimed that without CC reduces PvP to nothing more than a damage vs. defense equation. I assumed this was hyperbolic as TEB does not actually eliminate CC. As such, Vanilla WoW seemed to be a good counter to false assertion. You response does not even address this. You simply ignore and go off on a tangent rant.
The longest running up to 8 or even 10? What CC's are you talking about? Fear? Incapacitates? Those are fundamentally different types of CC. Fear broke early all the time, could be cleansed, was subject to additional CC breaks, and some preemptive immunities.. Incapacitates broke on damage and were used not to kill the target but to isolate another player(s). Additionally, as you accused me of hiding information, which I did not, you are ignoring critical aspects of CC in WoW. Hard CC essentially comes in two flavors. The first is free, unconditional CC. It's always on a long CD. The second is a CC group that is conditional/limited and/or requires significant resources investment. The CDs are shorter but still pretty much longer virtually every encounter power in Neverwinter.
Now, things, of course, have changed overtime in WoW. I played through Pandas. There has been a consistent pattern of significantly reducing damage output in a PvP setting. As fights last longer, CC is, of course, inherently less problematic.
No, cycling through categories is not how you dealt with that in PvP. You dealt with it by target swapping. I do not believe you seriously PvPed in WoW due to this statement.
So aside from the trapper HR associated with a few bugs and a really bad design, which classes currently do that, again? The 'strawman' ?
I've had CWs CC the absolute hell out of me in 1v1 scenarios. Granted, they can't kill me. There's very few, if any, people I've met who can kill me in a 1v1 scenario TEB or not. I have been permanently CC'd off a node before and taken damage that would have killed more standard Paladin builds... eventually. Maybe you're doing it wrong.
You still haven't told me just which class in this game is currently "excessively powerful".
"Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite."
Please point out where I said a class was "excessively powerful." On a related note, I did not even say that CC unbalances a game. I said it has the potential for the greatest negative impact on PvP. This is because, aside from a few masochists, no one likes being unable to control their character in PvP.
Like I've mentioned before in many posts EF DPS-CWs cast lasts barely two seconds, and my own EF with a significant and focused investment into CCs last maybe four. The game already offers a base 40% CC resistance with contemporary PvP armorsets, which means from the beginning CC-dependent classes are already penalized by 30~40% duration reduction for the sake of PvP balance.
So again, which class, beside the bugged trappers, are "excessive", and can kill within a duration of the CCs? Mod3 CWs?
I don't know what to say other than you're doing it wrong. I watch CWs kill people all the time in CC durations. I suspect you are undergeared.
I've already addressed this above. Go look at the average CC durations in those games with diminishing returns, and hen tell me how it compares to NW, where there's barely CC that lasts for more than full 3 seconds, and where a 6 second daze from a certain class in mod5 caused public outroar.
Even with diminishing returns, in my WoW days I'd CC a target for more than 15 seconds straight by cycling my CCs around, but let's just not mention the fact that games with diminishing returns usually also offer you CC cycling. In that sense, sure, I'd support a diminishing returns for NW IF a GWF stun, or a CW EF, or a TR DazingStrike.. lasted for like 6 seconds.
I'm really curious to know what class you played because while I played there was not a single class that could CC for more than 15 seconds without reliance on conditional, soft CC used to isolate not kill.
After 3 applications of the same type. Cycling different types easily bypasses this. Let's not hide crucial information.
"In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications." While I could have been more specific, it's pretty much implied here that immunity is category specific. Additionally, while we're talking about not hiding information, let's talk about how it was actually diminishing returns. Second application duration was reduced by 50%. Third application duration was reduced by 75%.
In SWTOR, CC powers have one minute recharge, so the base frequency of CCs themselves are a lot shorter, while the duration it lasts is hard-set between 4~6 seconds with no way to reduce them. Again, if you want comparisons, don't cherry pick just the ones that you want people to know.
No, they were not limited between 4 and 6 seconds. Yes, they were much longer CDs.
What's the CD on Entangling Force? 18 seconds? 20 seconds? Let's use 20. Rank 4 drops that to 14. We'll pretend you're geared and have good recovery because you aren't a scrub. That's what? 8.75 second CD? How long do you want this CC to last? 2.5 to 4 seconds? Longer in a geared build? That is one of the most absolutely preposterous things I've ever heard.
Yes, I'd like an ability that CC'd people for at least 30% to 45% of the CD and the ability to run 3 additional CC abilities. That doesn't sound dumb at all... /eyeroll
In almost every single of those MMOs you mention, CC durations are GUARANTEED for those who use it. Also, those "universally available CC breakers" in WoW has a 2min recharge. Same in SWTOR. It gives you an opportunity to break out of CC once, in 2min intervals.
Yes, and stuns were on much longer CDs. Logic would dictate that if you had CC with shorter duration, the CD on a CC breaker would be shorter.
Did I mention none of those classes in those games are offered a hefty base CC resistance for free, like people benefit in NW? The moment you get contemporary gear, you already knock off CC durations by 1/3rd. Think about that one.
Diminishing returns >>>>>> 1/3 CC duration reduction. Your point is irrelevant.
In short, every argument you pulled out from other examples, you tried to tactically hide the context from us, cherrypicking the parts that support your view, and yet not mentioning why such measures were necessary in those games.
I belive I've effectively dismantled all of your such arguments -- thoroughly. Guess it pays to have played all those games in the last 20 years. Experience does count for something.
And no, I don't think your CC build idea would be "overpowered." I think it's ridiculous and bad for the game.
[Edited out the insults. Keep it civil please. Thank you. - Kreatyve]
Since my post seemed to get skipped over. Ill post it again.
The BIGGEST issue with Negation and Elven is the fact they have NO "downtime". ALL other enchants with the exception of Briar (which is worthless) have downtime. THAT is what makes them balanced and maybe even under perform!
So INSTEAD of "nerf this nerf that etc" what SHOULD be done is propose a "downtime" to these enchants.
So here an EN EXAMPLE:
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
THIS is how you balance them.
downtimes suck, if i pay 10+ mil for an enchant i want it to work all the time not some, they tried negation with downtime, everybody ran with SF, maybe add a downtime to vorpal - 10 sec crit 20 sec cd ?
that is why nobody is using the other enchants that they have stupid downtime, and i cant really express how much of a "genius" one must be to bring SF, a completely different type enchant in this
This thread certainly has taken an effect on the AH. Negation enchants have started to come down and Eleven Battle are up drastically. Is there possibly an ulterior motive behind this?
This thread certainly has taken an effect on the AH. Negation enchants have started to come down and Eleven Battle are up drastically. Is there possibly an ulterior motive behind this?
If there is, I really hope someone would start a thread to increase the popularity of fireburst enchantments. I have a bunch of those I wouldn't mind selling. LOL
Every mod since last year, there has been a class built on CC chains.
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
Anyone else see a pattern here? I think this discussion is great. I've already learned a lot just reading it. I do think that this kind of nerf this/that discussion takes away from the fact that the underlying issue boils down to one fact:
There will always be at least one OP class/build/enchant/gear set in this game for every mod that we get.
I don't know if this is intentional or if it's due to the fact that the original devs are now gone and the current devs are up to their necks and can barely take a breath much less step back and look at the bigger issues. I hope they get the chance to step back because the continued discussion about this type of issue, mod after mod, is becoming tedious for all of us.
If you want something to be nerfed, just PM me in-game to see if I have that item. If I don't, it's safe to get one. If I do, it will be nerfed in the next patch. That's how it's worked for me since Mod 2.
Carry on.
I aim to misbehave
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
ABOUT elven is not funny anymore my own enchant to kill me vs trapper. Thanks.
Always amuses that in pvp CWs are some kind of CC standard to be feared of while GFs, HRs can pretty much stun lock you anytime.
Maybe an Oppressor could do it but CWs 95% are Not Oppressors.
With Elven battle CWs entangling force is about 1 sec so you don't need to put in CC breaker.
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
you highlighted an interesting point.
reduce paladins tankiness and dc healing, increase hr damage 'cuz we are aiming at a faster paced combat, which is good.
The biggest problem about TEB right now is not with how it works, its more with class balance. If chain cc was not needed to kill some classes, then TEB would not be a problem. But there is not true class balance. Classes should counter other classes, not items such as TEB. If a SW put a debuff on someone that made them receive 50% less healing, that would let people have a chance at grinding people down (with enough dps). Have a DC the ability to dispell buffs off people, give HR a way to "hunt" invisible prey to counter permas, etc. Every class should have something it is really good at, and which it is really good at going against. This creates balance and stops class stacking.
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
Good for only people accustomed to heavily armed/armored classes that rely on bruteforce. There are actually classes builds that emphasize on technicality, you know.
Imagine a nice, professional wrestling match, where a "technician" type and a classic, old-style "big man" type squares off in the ring. The big man is a towering presence with raw strength, power, and durability, whereas the technician is shorter, relative much more small in build, and therefore needs to rely on stuff like more speed, more tricky moves, and tactical shots to weak areas of the big man to momentarily stun him to get his signature moves in.
And in that match, guess what happens when somebody simply disallows every single technical, stunning move the technicain has.
Is it a fast paced combat? Oh sure. It's gonna be fast paced in that the big man is simply gonna beat the technician to a pulp, thus, the match ending quickly.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
Fair deal, right? If some people think that their own mistake of falling to a victim of focused attacks, and getting chain-CCd by multiple people in the vicinity is unfair. then by the same logic my class with low defenses being focus-fired by multiple people in the vicinity is also unfair.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
yes we got alot already..its called enchantment..dude...
deflect..defense.... "NEGATION"....its there any enchantment reduce CC??....dOooh....
i know...i knowww.....
oh yea....ELVEN BATTLE,,,,its the ONE taht you always crying about...
When you think about balance try to take pve in to account. After all it's a pve game with pvp as a bonus. Instead of changing values on the enchants they could just release some kind of potions which disables enemy enchants for 5s or so, with "X"s cd.
This could greatly reduce the problem of broken OP enchants without affecting PvE.
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
yes we got alot already..its called enchantment..dude...
deflect..defense.... "NEGATION"....its there any enchantment reduce CC??....dOooh....
i know...i knowww.....
oh yea....ELVEN BATTLE,,,,its the ONE taht you always crying about...
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
Good for only people accustomed to heavily armed/armored classes that rely on bruteforce. There are actually classes builds that emphasize on technicality, you know.
Imagine a nice, professional wrestling match, where a "technician" type and a classic, old-style "big man" type squares off in the ring. The big man is a towering presence with raw strength, power, and durability, whereas the technician is shorter, relative much more small in build, and therefore needs to rely on stuff like more speed, more tricky moves, and tactical shots to weak areas of the big man to momentarily stun him to get his signature moves in.
And in that match, guess what happens when somebody simply disallows every single technical, stunning move the technicain has.
Is it a fast paced combat? Oh sure. It's gonna be fast paced in that the big man is simply gonna beat the technician to a pulp, thus, the match ending quickly.
Well nothing stops the technician from slipping under the big guy and kicking him in the nuts. I'm sure that will be more entertaining to everyone than watching them dance for an hour.
This is supposed to be an action MMO, but PVP in particular is a turtle race. All those annoying defensive tactics, and various CC. Don't get me wrong, I can dance around a node with my HR, keeping 2-3 enemies occupied to give my team a tactical advantage. But killing each other is fun. Dancing around a node with an enemy OP, scratching him slightly with a "striker" class, is not. Getting CCed half of the fight, is not fun either.
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
yes we got alot already..its called enchantment..dude...
deflect..defense.... "NEGATION"....its there any enchantment reduce CC??....dOooh....
i know...i knowww.....
oh yea....ELVEN BATTLE,,,,its the ONE taht you always crying about...
deflect reduces cc.
naah...
and theres no information in the tool tip..about reducing cc...
only : Deflect =Increases the chance that you will ignore a large amount of incoming damage.
naah...
and theres no information in the tool tip..about reducing cc...
only : Deflect =Increases the chance that you will ignore a large amount of incoming damage.
Am I missing something here? Elven Battle gives 80% resistance to a bunch of CC effects. It used to be 200% last mod. so, the author is either really confused, or really making things up to make a point. Either way, you say it takes away from game mechanics in pvp, all enchants are designed to give advantage, negation makes people tanky as hell and need to be CCed and focused to be killed, and Elven battle just makes them slippery but squishy so just use your dashes to avoid them while you try to land the 1 shot hit on them.
while I was writing this, I kept checking the date of this post, it sure felt as if it time traveled from mod5, or did you prewrite it a long time ago and just decided to post?
Yeah shillaen. Deflect reduces CC. That's why when devs proposed possible buffs (that never came) to GWF, on of the things listed was "GWF stuns now cannot be deflected".
When deflected, your CC is reduced for the amount of your deflect severity. That's why CCing, for example, a TR, on GWF, is so unreliable.
47% deflect chance and 75% severity on some TRs.
Am I missing something here? Elven Battle gives 80% resistance to a bunch of CC effects. It used to be 200% last mod. so, the author is either really confused, or really making things up to make a point.
Nothing changed. The tooltip's presentation being "200% mor resistant", has been changed to give exact amount of resistance specified as being "+80% CC resistance". If you missed something, it is this.
Either way, you say it takes away from game mechanics in pvp, all enchants are designed to give advantage, negation makes people tanky as hell and need to be CCed and focused to be killed, and Elven battle just makes them slippery but squishy so just use your dashes to avoid them while you try to land the 1 shot hit on them.
It's easy to assume such things when you haven't actually been in the other guy's shoes. What is actually happening in PvP, to a CC-heavy class, when fighting someone with TEB equipped, would be the equivalent of a high-damage DPS class meeting someone equipped with two Negation echantments.
while I was writing this, I kept checking the date of this post, it sure felt as if it time traveled from mod5, or did you prewrite it a long time ago and just decided to post?
Gee, what do you think?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yeah shillaen. Deflect reduces CC. That's why when devs proposed possible buffs (that never came) to GWF, on of the things listed was "GWF stuns now cannot be deflected".
When deflected, your CC is reduced for the amount of your deflect severity. That's why CCing, for example, a TR, on GWF, is so unreliable.
47% deflect chance and 75% severity on some TRs.
Yes, pando.
Which means, basically TEB is the same thing as someone getting 100% deflect chance against any inbound CCs, with an even higher CC-resistance bonus applied than the TRs have their deflect bonus counted as CC-resistance... and if some of the people weren't so biased, they would actually recall what happens when someone tries any CC on a TR and gets that deflected.
Basically, the TR just "flinches" for a moment and goes about his way. That happens around 1/3rd ~ half the time when you target a TR. Now imagine an overpowered-as-heck DC or Paly, or even a MI/TR, that is effected even shorter a time, 100% of the time.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yeah shillaen. Deflect reduces CC. That's why when devs proposed possible buffs (that never came) to GWF, on of the things listed was "GWF stuns now cannot be deflected".
When deflected, your CC is reduced for the amount of your deflect severity. That's why CCing, for example, a TR, on GWF, is so unreliable.
47% deflect chance and 75% severity on some TRs.
i see...thanks for explanation pando abt deflection...i only see what is the tooltip described..
well good to know...and abt elven/negation...i let the dev decided,...hopefully balanced and fair for CC and nonCC class....
Am I missing something here? Elven Battle gives 80% resistance to a bunch of CC effects. It used to be 200% last mod. so, the author is either really confused, or really making things up to make a point. Either way, you say it takes away from game mechanics in pvp, all enchants are designed to give advantage, negation makes people tanky as hell and need to be CCed and focused to be killed, and Elven battle just makes them slippery but squishy so just use your dashes to avoid them while you try to land the 1 shot hit on them.
while I was writing this, I kept checking the date of this post, it sure felt as if it time traveled from mod5, or did you prewrite it a long time ago and just decided to post?
yea i think elven nerfed already,...hehe you put it nicely ..good answer...
Easy Answer CC him down its quick and easy, or just cc him off the node, Any Paly of any IL can be CCed down in seconds aTR, HR can lock a Paly down down indefinitely, with Crushing Roots and Smoke Bomb, TR dazing in between, SE when its up. and if they are with a healer, well then your other two nodes are free, or grab a CW and take both down in CC train.
this is from other thread,.....LOL
do you think DC/OP need anti CC enchant??...please lol....
well maybe some of you would say..to me...its mechanic bla.bla..bla , elven ecnhant make it impossible to do it..etc....CC classes wanted to make this always happen **** perma CCed...but from the DC/OP side...its broken....nobody..no players want to be unable do anything until he died,..because of perma CCed..cant counter it at all..
then youll said..DC/OP combo..immortal..its the different topic..its class balanced..please...
Samething..theres devastating combo CW+HR = perma CCing+killing...(theres on youtube i think its EoA inhouse pvp)
or CW+CW perma cc+kill
CW+TR..combo CC...+kill...as ashnnw said
====CC class didnt like their cc cannot landed long enough/perma to kill =====
====nonCC class didnt like either about long cc/perma , unable to do anything==
Always amuses that in pvp CWs are some kind of CC standard to be feared of while GFs, HRs can pretty much stun lock you anytime.
Maybe an Oppressor could do it but CWs 95% are Not Oppressors.
With Elven battle CWs entangling force is about 1 sec so you don't need to put in CC breaker.
Great point. HR's are the real ranged control toons. Trappers might be better referred to as Control Rangers, because they have more single target control than a Control Wizard could ever dream to have.
Regardless, CC is a crucial aspect of defeating tanky characters. With a TEB, mechanics like the CW's freeze are simply rendered non-existent. That seems to go too far.
Are there any other enchants that render an entire class' mechanic useless? Is there going to be a "Transcendebt Psionic Bastion" Enchant that will reduce DoT damage by 90% and reveal anyone in stealth within 100 meters for your entire team to see? Because that seems useful too ... even if it renders the TR's stealth mechanic useless. So far ... I'm not aware of any mechanic-breaking Enchants other than EB.
I was always in favour of deflect reducing cc, it also makes sense that you deflect both damage and cc and lets say it clear. With wisdom not working it s necessary.
But elven battle us just too much.
Negation does negate damage for example but its no way near to be immune to damage... elven battle is instead.
Too much. And the additional stamina just makes it even more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
A good example of more or less balanced enchant is tran. Barkshield is it wasnt proc of at wills and boons
Comments
Elven Battle is currently bugged and reduces Into The Fray duration, which is a core encounter for nearly every top GF. So you won't see many GFs using it, until they fix it.
The BIGGEST issue with Negation and Elven is the fact they have NO "downtime". ALL other enchants with the exception of Briar (which is worthless) have downtime. THAT is what makes them balanced and maybe even under perform!
So INSTEAD of "nerf this nerf that etc" what SHOULD be done is propose a "downtime" to these enchants.
So here an EN EXAMPLE:
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
THIS is how you balance them.
+1
i think DEV can look into this...
both strong enchnt elven and negation need downtime..yes ..cant agree more...
I brought up Vanilla WoW specifically to point out a factually inaccurate statement... which was quoted and specifically referenced by saying "This is a factually inaccurate statement." You specifically claimed that without CC reduces PvP to nothing more than a damage vs. defense equation. I assumed this was hyperbolic as TEB does not actually eliminate CC. As such, Vanilla WoW seemed to be a good counter to false assertion. You response does not even address this. You simply ignore and go off on a tangent rant.
The longest running up to 8 or even 10? What CC's are you talking about? Fear? Incapacitates? Those are fundamentally different types of CC. Fear broke early all the time, could be cleansed, was subject to additional CC breaks, and some preemptive immunities.. Incapacitates broke on damage and were used not to kill the target but to isolate another player(s). Additionally, as you accused me of hiding information, which I did not, you are ignoring critical aspects of CC in WoW. Hard CC essentially comes in two flavors. The first is free, unconditional CC. It's always on a long CD. The second is a CC group that is conditional/limited and/or requires significant resources investment. The CDs are shorter but still pretty much longer virtually every encounter power in Neverwinter.
Now, things, of course, have changed overtime in WoW. I played through Pandas. There has been a consistent pattern of significantly reducing damage output in a PvP setting. As fights last longer, CC is, of course, inherently less problematic.
No, cycling through categories is not how you dealt with that in PvP. You dealt with it by target swapping. I do not believe you seriously PvPed in WoW due to this statement.
I've had CWs CC the absolute hell out of me in 1v1 scenarios. Granted, they can't kill me. There's very few, if any, people I've met who can kill me in a 1v1 scenario TEB or not. I have been permanently CC'd off a node before and taken damage that would have killed more standard Paladin builds... eventually. Maybe you're doing it wrong.
"Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite."
Please point out where I said a class was "excessively powerful." On a related note, I did not even say that CC unbalances a game. I said it has the potential for the greatest negative impact on PvP. This is because, aside from a few masochists, no one likes being unable to control their character in PvP.
I don't know what to say other than you're doing it wrong. I watch CWs kill people all the time in CC durations. I suspect you are undergeared.
I'm really curious to know what class you played because while I played there was not a single class that could CC for more than 15 seconds without reliance on conditional, soft CC used to isolate not kill.
"In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications." While I could have been more specific, it's pretty much implied here that immunity is category specific. Additionally, while we're talking about not hiding information, let's talk about how it was actually diminishing returns. Second application duration was reduced by 50%. Third application duration was reduced by 75%.
No, they were not limited between 4 and 6 seconds. Yes, they were much longer CDs.
What's the CD on Entangling Force? 18 seconds? 20 seconds? Let's use 20. Rank 4 drops that to 14. We'll pretend you're geared and have good recovery because you aren't a scrub. That's what? 8.75 second CD? How long do you want this CC to last? 2.5 to 4 seconds? Longer in a geared build? That is one of the most absolutely preposterous things I've ever heard.
Yes, I'd like an ability that CC'd people for at least 30% to 45% of the CD and the ability to run 3 additional CC abilities. That doesn't sound dumb at all... /eyeroll
Yes, and stuns were on much longer CDs. Logic would dictate that if you had CC with shorter duration, the CD on a CC breaker would be shorter.
Diminishing returns >>>>>> 1/3 CC duration reduction. Your point is irrelevant.
And no, I don't think your CC build idea would be "overpowered." I think it's ridiculous and bad for the game.
[Edited out the insults. Keep it civil please. Thank you. - Kreatyve]
downtimes suck, if i pay 10+ mil for an enchant i want it to work all the time not some, they tried negation with downtime, everybody ran with SF, maybe add a downtime to vorpal - 10 sec crit 20 sec cd ?
that is why nobody is using the other enchants that they have stupid downtime, and i cant really express how much of a "genius" one must be to bring SF, a completely different type enchant in this
If there is, I really hope someone would start a thread to increase the popularity of fireburst enchantments. I have a bunch of those I wouldn't mind selling. LOL
Anyone else see a pattern here? I think this discussion is great. I've already learned a lot just reading it. I do think that this kind of nerf this/that discussion takes away from the fact that the underlying issue boils down to one fact:
There will always be at least one OP class/build/enchant/gear set in this game for every mod that we get.
I don't know if this is intentional or if it's due to the fact that the original devs are now gone and the current devs are up to their necks and can barely take a breath much less step back and look at the bigger issues. I hope they get the chance to step back because the continued discussion about this type of issue, mod after mod, is becoming tedious for all of us.
If you want something to be nerfed, just PM me in-game to see if I have that item. If I don't, it's safe to get one. If I do, it will be nerfed in the next patch. That's how it's worked for me since Mod 2.
Carry on.
Maybe an Oppressor could do it but CWs 95% are Not Oppressors.
With Elven battle CWs entangling force is about 1 sec so you don't need to put in CC breaker.
you highlighted an interesting point.
reduce paladins tankiness and dc healing, increase hr damage 'cuz we are aiming at a faster paced combat, which is good.
Good for only people accustomed to heavily armed/armored classes that rely on bruteforce. There are actually classes builds that emphasize on technicality, you know.
Imagine a nice, professional wrestling match, where a "technician" type and a classic, old-style "big man" type squares off in the ring. The big man is a towering presence with raw strength, power, and durability, whereas the technician is shorter, relative much more small in build, and therefore needs to rely on stuff like more speed, more tricky moves, and tactical shots to weak areas of the big man to momentarily stun him to get his signature moves in.
And in that match, guess what happens when somebody simply disallows every single technical, stunning move the technicain has.
Is it a fast paced combat? Oh sure. It's gonna be fast paced in that the big man is simply gonna beat the technician to a pulp, thus, the match ending quickly.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
Fair deal, right? If some people think that their own mistake of falling to a victim of focused attacks, and getting chain-CCd by multiple people in the vicinity is unfair. then by the same logic my class with low defenses being focus-fired by multiple people in the vicinity is also unfair.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yes we got alot already..its called enchantment..dude...
deflect..defense.... "NEGATION"....its there any enchantment reduce CC??....dOooh....
i know...i knowww.....
oh yea....ELVEN BATTLE,,,,its the ONE taht you always crying about...
This could greatly reduce the problem of broken OP enchants without affecting PvE.
deflect reduces cc.
This is supposed to be an action MMO, but PVP in particular is a turtle race. All those annoying defensive tactics, and various CC. Don't get me wrong, I can dance around a node with my HR, keeping 2-3 enemies occupied to give my team a tactical advantage. But killing each other is fun. Dancing around a node with an enemy OP, scratching him slightly with a "striker" class, is not. Getting CCed half of the fight, is not fun either.
naah...
and theres no information in the tool tip..about reducing cc...
only : Deflect =Increases the chance that you will ignore a large amount of incoming damage.
sorry nox ... i dnt think deflection reduce cc.
in that case,...great thanks for the tips...
while I was writing this, I kept checking the date of this post, it sure felt as if it time traveled from mod5, or did you prewrite it a long time ago and just decided to post?
When deflected, your CC is reduced for the amount of your deflect severity. That's why CCing, for example, a TR, on GWF, is so unreliable.
47% deflect chance and 75% severity on some TRs.
Nothing changed. The tooltip's presentation being "200% mor resistant", has been changed to give exact amount of resistance specified as being "+80% CC resistance". If you missed something, it is this.
It's easy to assume such things when you haven't actually been in the other guy's shoes. What is actually happening in PvP, to a CC-heavy class, when fighting someone with TEB equipped, would be the equivalent of a high-damage DPS class meeting someone equipped with two Negation echantments.
Gee, what do you think?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yes, pando.
Which means, basically TEB is the same thing as someone getting 100% deflect chance against any inbound CCs, with an even higher CC-resistance bonus applied than the TRs have their deflect bonus counted as CC-resistance... and if some of the people weren't so biased, they would actually recall what happens when someone tries any CC on a TR and gets that deflected.
Basically, the TR just "flinches" for a moment and goes about his way. That happens around 1/3rd ~ half the time when you target a TR. Now imagine an overpowered-as-heck DC or Paly, or even a MI/TR, that is effected even shorter a time, 100% of the time.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i see...thanks for explanation pando abt deflection...i only see what is the tooltip described..
well good to know...and abt elven/negation...i let the dev decided,...hopefully balanced and fair for CC and nonCC class....
yea i think elven nerfed already,...hehe you put it nicely ..good answer...
this is from other thread,.....LOL
do you think DC/OP need anti CC enchant??...please lol....
well maybe some of you would say..to me...its mechanic bla.bla..bla , elven ecnhant make it impossible to do it..etc....CC classes wanted to make this always happen **** perma CCed...but from the DC/OP side...its broken....nobody..no players want to be unable do anything until he died,..because of perma CCed..cant counter it at all..
then youll said..DC/OP combo..immortal..its the different topic..its class balanced..please...
Samething..theres devastating combo CW+HR = perma CCing+killing...(theres on youtube i think its EoA inhouse pvp)
or CW+CW perma cc+kill
CW+TR..combo CC...+kill...as ashnnw said
====CC class didnt like their cc cannot landed long enough/perma to kill =====
====nonCC class didnt like either about long cc/perma , unable to do anything==
so what happen?...let dev decided ghahhahah
Great point. HR's are the real ranged control toons. Trappers might be better referred to as Control Rangers, because they have more single target control than a Control Wizard could ever dream to have.
Regardless, CC is a crucial aspect of defeating tanky characters. With a TEB, mechanics like the CW's freeze are simply rendered non-existent. That seems to go too far.
Are there any other enchants that render an entire class' mechanic useless? Is there going to be a "Transcendebt Psionic Bastion" Enchant that will reduce DoT damage by 90% and reveal anyone in stealth within 100 meters for your entire team to see? Because that seems useful too ... even if it renders the TR's stealth mechanic useless. So far ... I'm not aware of any mechanic-breaking Enchants other than EB.
But elven battle us just too much.
Negation does negate damage for example but its no way near to be immune to damage... elven battle is instead.
Too much. And the additional stamina just makes it even more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
A good example of more or less balanced enchant is tran. Barkshield is it wasnt proc of at wills and boons