At this point I'm seeing so many deluded individuals here with just no idea how much reduction TEB offers against CCs, that I'm starting to wondering if any of these people have actually used TEB, or fought against TEB with CC dependent class. Or better yet, have these people even played a CC-dependent class in the game?
The classes I play are a Righteous DC, Trapper HR (not currently PvPing because roots should respect dodging), and a WK Scoundrel, so yeah... I have an inkling of what it means to be depend on CC.
Rather than going on the attack, which is your propensity it seems, you might consider taking a step back and read what is being said. Neither my post nor the one that I was responding to are arguing that you are wrong about TEB. Rather, it was just an interjection that the reliance on CC chains in this game is a design flaw, as it can often break PvP (as do immortal builds).
I tend to appreciate the testing you do with different builds and input you add to the forums in that regard, but you tend to be belligerent toward anyone not espousing an opinion not your own, and, frankly, the world isn't against you.
Rather than going on the attack, which is your propensity it seems, you might consider taking a step back and read what is being said. Neither my post nor the one that I was responding to are arguing that you are wrong about TEB. Rather, it was just an interjection that the reliance on CC chains in this game is a design flaw, as it can often break PvP (as do immortal builds).
Like what?
So many strawman arguments thrown around, depicting as if CC was some sort of a viral-outbreak that's made the game worse in some way, except I've been here since mod2 and upto current mod6 I've never seen it. Mod2~mod3 CWs were the closest thing that came to such definition except the introduction of tenacity has effectively removed them from having both "potent CC" and "potent DPS".
So give me an example of "CC chains" in this game, except the trapper. Because the last time I checked every class that is not immune to CCs can dodge/teleport it, and every class that cannot dodge/teleport it has immunities.
Are we calling stuff like the repel-EF as "excessive"? In the entirety the duration of such chains doesn't last for even 4 seconds for most CWs. The GWFs can chain stun with FLS+takedown or flourish+takedown, but then no GWF uses with those two powers on the encounter slot. The long-chain dazes of Scoundrel builds from mod5 are now entirely destroyed and gone, and as one of the few surviving scoundrels in the game I now rely on singular moments of Dazing Strike hits to do my damage. SWs have the game's strongest stun, but that's also singular, and can be avoided.
So just which "game breaking cahin of serious CCs" are we talking about in PvP?
The one that kills you because you've been focused by 4~5 people hellbent on killing you? You're getting hit by 4~5 chains of CCs in those cases because you've been the target of their focus fire while you were either alone, or your teammates in the near vicinity didn't care about what happened to you. When something like that happens, aren't you supposed to die? Or is there some other sort of serious PvP breaking CC chains (besides the bugged trappers) I'm not aware of?
I wanna know.
I tend to appreciate the testing you do with different builds and input you add to the forums in that regard, but you tend to be belligerent toward anyone not espousing an opinion not your own, and, frankly, the world isn't against you.
The belligerence didn't begin until someone poked me first.
I tend poke back.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
■ Let's imagine that there's an enchantment that gives you 200% more resistance to lightning/ice damage. And then, let's see what happens if someone slaps on that enchantment on a certain class and ...
It as to stop it's destroying CW control we have no control at all against all the classes while it serves them perfectly DC SW HR Paladin and that's ridicules.
Or is there some other sort of serious PvP breaking CC chains (besides the bugged trappers) I'm not aware of?
Every mod since last year, there has been a class built on CC chains.
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
The belligerence didn't begin until someone poked me first.
I tend poke back.
Frankly, nobody had said a word about you before you went on the attack and started calling people deluded, so don't blame your aggression on anyone else. It's not their character flaw.
Every mod since last year, there has been a class built on CC chains.
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
You are aware that TEB doesn't help much against trappers in that there's a bug associated with it, as well as their nuissance in this game isn't from the duration, but the amount of non-stop repetition, are you not? Their dazes already last for like only quarter~half second. It does help a bit with getting out of that long root, but you're still constantly micro-dazed -- which is the only case CCs have any meaning as "interrupts" because it can be repeated at insane intervals.
But then, for the price of that benefit, what do the others suffer? Do you not see this part, or is this part simply ignored because TEB can benefit your own DC class?
What about the SWs that lose their only meains of real attack initiation by having their one good stun neutered?
What about CWs like me which is CC/support role, totally denied because of one enchantment?
What about the non-Sabo TRs that cannot even get one Dazing Strike to last more than 2 seconds?
What about the people that have no way to drop the shield long enough on that two-shot GF to kill it?
What about EVERYONE that suffers from an immortal DC/OP?
Can you really justify this enchantment because it offers you minor rememdy to one class that bothers you?
Frankly, nobody had said a word about you before you went on the attack and started calling people deluded, so don't blame your aggression on anyone else. It's not their character flaw.
Then you obviously don't read what people write. I recommend you take some time (if you deem it necessary) to go through the pages before your post and see where the 'problems' begin.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Ok, these attacks have gone on far enough. I am pretty sure after 3 pages of data and arguing, the devs should have enough information weather or not the enchant needs some work. I'm closing this thread.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Ok all. I'm going to reopen this thread, however, this thread can not continue to devolve into a flame war. If you want your voices heard then remain civil. As long as somebody supplies evidence to support their claim it is not a nerf request.
If you wish to dispute the evidence then you must also do so in a civil manner with your own evidence rather than a knee jerk reaction. Do not insult other users under any circumstance or make accusations of this being a nerf request.
Feedback is welcome and desired but you must do so in a respectful manner or not at all.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
maybe TEB is too strong, can´t say , T Negation is stronger imo
playing against DC OP GF GWF I can´t imagine that my only viable cc Hadar grasp changes anything with or without TEB
I am really courious about meeting some player with that enchant, in most cases that will be DC OP GF i guess bc they can reach high defence even without T Negation
time to test terror /plaguefire + encounter/feats that reduce their DR from lets say 80%-cap down to 60%
most classes have feats and encounter that do so
that would be 100% less DR against your not piercing damage
OP is no big deal for warlock bc of these weared damageloops with his aura, these loops would get bigger, go TEB please
GF will profit a lot i guess, DC too but against DC´s the best options are knockbacks/prones atm, so knock back and debuff he is gonna get eat more damage imo
Elven Battle is currently bugged and reduces Into The Fray duration, which is a core encounter for nearly every top GF. So you won't see many GFs using it, until they fix it.
Since my post seemed to get skipped over. Ill post it again.
The BIGGEST issue with Negation and Elven is the fact they have NO "downtime". ALL other enchants with the exception of Briar (which is worthless) have downtime. THAT is what makes them balanced and maybe even under perform!
So INSTEAD of "nerf this nerf that etc" what SHOULD be done is propose a "downtime" to these enchants.
So here an EN EXAMPLE:
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
Since my post seemed to get skipped over. Ill post it again.
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
THIS is how you balance them.
+1
i think DEV can look into this...
both strong enchnt elven and negation need downtime..yes ..cant agree more...
WoW is a game that ran for 11 years and still running, with 3~4 major expansions and went through major GFX updates because the game ran for so long... and you're quoting "vanilla" era of that game as a reference to support your claims? I've played WoW from the Burning Crusade to the Cataclysm era, been with a major arena-PvP group within my server so don't think I don't know how WoW CC works.
WoW CCs last on average between 4 to 6 seconds, the longest running upto 8 or even 10. They have diminishing returns on same CC types but only because the average duration is much longer than what we have in NW, and cycling through different CC types is an easy and legit way to bypass the diminishing returns and there actually are classes that have such multiple assortment of CCs.
Tell me how that applies as a comparison to NW.
I brought up Vanilla WoW specifically to point out a factually inaccurate statement... which was quoted and specifically referenced by saying "This is a factually inaccurate statement." You specifically claimed that without CC reduces PvP to nothing more than a damage vs. defense equation. I assumed this was hyperbolic as TEB does not actually eliminate CC. As such, Vanilla WoW seemed to be a good counter to false assertion. You response does not even address this. You simply ignore and go off on a tangent rant.
The longest running up to 8 or even 10? What CC's are you talking about? Fear? Incapacitates? Those are fundamentally different types of CC. Fear broke early all the time, could be cleansed, was subject to additional CC breaks, and some preemptive immunities.. Incapacitates broke on damage and were used not to kill the target but to isolate another player(s). Additionally, as you accused me of hiding information, which I did not, you are ignoring critical aspects of CC in WoW. Hard CC essentially comes in two flavors. The first is free, unconditional CC. It's always on a long CD. The second is a CC group that is conditional/limited and/or requires significant resources investment. The CDs are shorter but still pretty much longer virtually every encounter power in Neverwinter.
Now, things, of course, have changed overtime in WoW. I played through Pandas. There has been a consistent pattern of significantly reducing damage output in a PvP setting. As fights last longer, CC is, of course, inherently less problematic.
No, cycling through categories is not how you dealt with that in PvP. You dealt with it by target swapping. I do not believe you seriously PvPed in WoW due to this statement.
So aside from the trapper HR associated with a few bugs and a really bad design, which classes currently do that, again? The 'strawman' ?
I've had CWs CC the absolute hell out of me in 1v1 scenarios. Granted, they can't kill me. There's very few, if any, people I've met who can kill me in a 1v1 scenario TEB or not. I have been permanently CC'd off a node before and taken damage that would have killed more standard Paladin builds... eventually. Maybe you're doing it wrong.
You still haven't told me just which class in this game is currently "excessively powerful".
"Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite."
Please point out where I said a class was "excessively powerful." On a related note, I did not even say that CC unbalances a game. I said it has the potential for the greatest negative impact on PvP. This is because, aside from a few masochists, no one likes being unable to control their character in PvP.
Like I've mentioned before in many posts EF DPS-CWs cast lasts barely two seconds, and my own EF with a significant and focused investment into CCs last maybe four. The game already offers a base 40% CC resistance with contemporary PvP armorsets, which means from the beginning CC-dependent classes are already penalized by 30~40% duration reduction for the sake of PvP balance.
So again, which class, beside the bugged trappers, are "excessive", and can kill within a duration of the CCs? Mod3 CWs?
I don't know what to say other than you're doing it wrong. I watch CWs kill people all the time in CC durations. I suspect you are undergeared.
I've already addressed this above. Go look at the average CC durations in those games with diminishing returns, and hen tell me how it compares to NW, where there's barely CC that lasts for more than full 3 seconds, and where a 6 second daze from a certain class in mod5 caused public outroar.
Even with diminishing returns, in my WoW days I'd CC a target for more than 15 seconds straight by cycling my CCs around, but let's just not mention the fact that games with diminishing returns usually also offer you CC cycling. In that sense, sure, I'd support a diminishing returns for NW IF a GWF stun, or a CW EF, or a TR DazingStrike.. lasted for like 6 seconds.
I'm really curious to know what class you played because while I played there was not a single class that could CC for more than 15 seconds without reliance on conditional, soft CC used to isolate not kill.
After 3 applications of the same type. Cycling different types easily bypasses this. Let's not hide crucial information.
"In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications." While I could have been more specific, it's pretty much implied here that immunity is category specific. Additionally, while we're talking about not hiding information, let's talk about how it was actually diminishing returns. Second application duration was reduced by 50%. Third application duration was reduced by 75%.
In SWTOR, CC powers have one minute recharge, so the base frequency of CCs themselves are a lot shorter, while the duration it lasts is hard-set between 4~6 seconds with no way to reduce them. Again, if you want comparisons, don't cherry pick just the ones that you want people to know.
No, they were not limited between 4 and 6 seconds. Yes, they were much longer CDs.
What's the CD on Entangling Force? 18 seconds? 20 seconds? Let's use 20. Rank 4 drops that to 14. We'll pretend you're geared and have good recovery because you aren't a scrub. That's what? 8.75 second CD? How long do you want this CC to last? 2.5 to 4 seconds? Longer in a geared build? That is one of the most absolutely preposterous things I've ever heard.
Yes, I'd like an ability that CC'd people for at least 30% to 45% of the CD and the ability to run 3 additional CC abilities. That doesn't sound dumb at all... /eyeroll
In almost every single of those MMOs you mention, CC durations are GUARANTEED for those who use it. Also, those "universally available CC breakers" in WoW has a 2min recharge. Same in SWTOR. It gives you an opportunity to break out of CC once, in 2min intervals.
Yes, and stuns were on much longer CDs. Logic would dictate that if you had CC with shorter duration, the CD on a CC breaker would be shorter.
Did I mention none of those classes in those games are offered a hefty base CC resistance for free, like people benefit in NW? The moment you get contemporary gear, you already knock off CC durations by 1/3rd. Think about that one.
Diminishing returns >>>>>> 1/3 CC duration reduction. Your point is irrelevant.
In short, every argument you pulled out from other examples, you tried to tactically hide the context from us, cherrypicking the parts that support your view, and yet not mentioning why such measures were necessary in those games.
I belive I've effectively dismantled all of your such arguments -- thoroughly. Guess it pays to have played all those games in the last 20 years. Experience does count for something.
And no, I don't think your CC build idea would be "overpowered." I think it's ridiculous and bad for the game.
[Edited out the insults. Keep it civil please. Thank you. - Kreatyve]
Since my post seemed to get skipped over. Ill post it again.
The BIGGEST issue with Negation and Elven is the fact they have NO "downtime". ALL other enchants with the exception of Briar (which is worthless) have downtime. THAT is what makes them balanced and maybe even under perform!
So INSTEAD of "nerf this nerf that etc" what SHOULD be done is propose a "downtime" to these enchants.
So here an EN EXAMPLE:
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
THIS is how you balance them.
downtimes suck, if i pay 10+ mil for an enchant i want it to work all the time not some, they tried negation with downtime, everybody ran with SF, maybe add a downtime to vorpal - 10 sec crit 20 sec cd ?
that is why nobody is using the other enchants that they have stupid downtime, and i cant really express how much of a "genius" one must be to bring SF, a completely different type enchant in this
This thread certainly has taken an effect on the AH. Negation enchants have started to come down and Eleven Battle are up drastically. Is there possibly an ulterior motive behind this?
This thread certainly has taken an effect on the AH. Negation enchants have started to come down and Eleven Battle are up drastically. Is there possibly an ulterior motive behind this?
If there is, I really hope someone would start a thread to increase the popularity of fireburst enchantments. I have a bunch of those I wouldn't mind selling. LOL
Every mod since last year, there has been a class built on CC chains.
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
Anyone else see a pattern here? I think this discussion is great. I've already learned a lot just reading it. I do think that this kind of nerf this/that discussion takes away from the fact that the underlying issue boils down to one fact:
There will always be at least one OP class/build/enchant/gear set in this game for every mod that we get.
I don't know if this is intentional or if it's due to the fact that the original devs are now gone and the current devs are up to their necks and can barely take a breath much less step back and look at the bigger issues. I hope they get the chance to step back because the continued discussion about this type of issue, mod after mod, is becoming tedious for all of us.
If you want something to be nerfed, just PM me in-game to see if I have that item. If I don't, it's safe to get one. If I do, it will be nerfed in the next patch. That's how it's worked for me since Mod 2.
Carry on.
I aim to misbehave
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
ABOUT elven is not funny anymore my own enchant to kill me vs trapper. Thanks.
Always amuses that in pvp CWs are some kind of CC standard to be feared of while GFs, HRs can pretty much stun lock you anytime.
Maybe an Oppressor could do it but CWs 95% are Not Oppressors.
With Elven battle CWs entangling force is about 1 sec so you don't need to put in CC breaker.
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
you highlighted an interesting point.
reduce paladins tankiness and dc healing, increase hr damage 'cuz we are aiming at a faster paced combat, which is good.
The biggest problem about TEB right now is not with how it works, its more with class balance. If chain cc was not needed to kill some classes, then TEB would not be a problem. But there is not true class balance. Classes should counter other classes, not items such as TEB. If a SW put a debuff on someone that made them receive 50% less healing, that would let people have a chance at grinding people down (with enough dps). Have a DC the ability to dispell buffs off people, give HR a way to "hunt" invisible prey to counter permas, etc. Every class should have something it is really good at, and which it is really good at going against. This creates balance and stops class stacking.
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
Good for only people accustomed to heavily armed/armored classes that rely on bruteforce. There are actually classes builds that emphasize on technicality, you know.
Imagine a nice, professional wrestling match, where a "technician" type and a classic, old-style "big man" type squares off in the ring. The big man is a towering presence with raw strength, power, and durability, whereas the technician is shorter, relative much more small in build, and therefore needs to rely on stuff like more speed, more tricky moves, and tactical shots to weak areas of the big man to momentarily stun him to get his signature moves in.
And in that match, guess what happens when somebody simply disallows every single technical, stunning move the technicain has.
Is it a fast paced combat? Oh sure. It's gonna be fast paced in that the big man is simply gonna beat the technician to a pulp, thus, the match ending quickly.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I don't now how much exactly this enchantment "breaks the game" (not rich enough to get it), but I do know that CC is annoying. Nothing makes you rage more than pressing buttons and see nothing happening. Less CC means faster paced combat, which is good.
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
Fair deal, right? If some people think that their own mistake of falling to a victim of focused attacks, and getting chain-CCd by multiple people in the vicinity is unfair. then by the same logic my class with low defenses being focus-fired by multiple people in the vicinity is also unfair.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
yes we got alot already..its called enchantment..dude...
deflect..defense.... "NEGATION"....its there any enchantment reduce CC??....dOooh....
i know...i knowww.....
oh yea....ELVEN BATTLE,,,,its the ONE taht you always crying about...
Comments
The classes I play are a Righteous DC, Trapper HR (not currently PvPing because roots should respect dodging), and a WK Scoundrel, so yeah... I have an inkling of what it means to be depend on CC.
Rather than going on the attack, which is your propensity it seems, you might consider taking a step back and read what is being said. Neither my post nor the one that I was responding to are arguing that you are wrong about TEB. Rather, it was just an interjection that the reliance on CC chains in this game is a design flaw, as it can often break PvP (as do immortal builds).
I tend to appreciate the testing you do with different builds and input you add to the forums in that regard, but you tend to be belligerent toward anyone not espousing an opinion not your own, and, frankly, the world isn't against you.
Like what?
So many strawman arguments thrown around, depicting as if CC was some sort of a viral-outbreak that's made the game worse in some way, except I've been here since mod2 and upto current mod6 I've never seen it. Mod2~mod3 CWs were the closest thing that came to such definition except the introduction of tenacity has effectively removed them from having both "potent CC" and "potent DPS".
So give me an example of "CC chains" in this game, except the trapper. Because the last time I checked every class that is not immune to CCs can dodge/teleport it, and every class that cannot dodge/teleport it has immunities.
Are we calling stuff like the repel-EF as "excessive"? In the entirety the duration of such chains doesn't last for even 4 seconds for most CWs. The GWFs can chain stun with FLS+takedown or flourish+takedown, but then no GWF uses with those two powers on the encounter slot. The long-chain dazes of Scoundrel builds from mod5 are now entirely destroyed and gone, and as one of the few surviving scoundrels in the game I now rely on singular moments of Dazing Strike hits to do my damage. SWs have the game's strongest stun, but that's also singular, and can be avoided.
So just which "game breaking cahin of serious CCs" are we talking about in PvP?
The one that kills you because you've been focused by 4~5 people hellbent on killing you? You're getting hit by 4~5 chains of CCs in those cases because you've been the target of their focus fire while you were either alone, or your teammates in the near vicinity didn't care about what happened to you. When something like that happens, aren't you supposed to die? Or is there some other sort of serious PvP breaking CC chains (besides the bugged trappers) I'm not aware of?
I wanna know.
The belligerence didn't begin until someone poked me first.
I tend poke back.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
Frankly, nobody had said a word about you before you went on the attack and started calling people deluded, so don't blame your aggression on anyone else. It's not their character flaw.
You are aware that TEB doesn't help much against trappers in that there's a bug associated with it, as well as their nuissance in this game isn't from the duration, but the amount of non-stop repetition, are you not? Their dazes already last for like only quarter~half second. It does help a bit with getting out of that long root, but you're still constantly micro-dazed -- which is the only case CCs have any meaning as "interrupts" because it can be repeated at insane intervals.
But then, for the price of that benefit, what do the others suffer? Do you not see this part, or is this part simply ignored because TEB can benefit your own DC class?
What about the SWs that lose their only meains of real attack initiation by having their one good stun neutered?
What about CWs like me which is CC/support role, totally denied because of one enchantment?
What about the non-Sabo TRs that cannot even get one Dazing Strike to last more than 2 seconds?
What about the people that have no way to drop the shield long enough on that two-shot GF to kill it?
What about EVERYONE that suffers from an immortal DC/OP?
Can you really justify this enchantment because it offers you minor rememdy to one class that bothers you?
Then you obviously don't read what people write. I recommend you take some time (if you deem it necessary) to go through the pages before your post and see where the 'problems' begin.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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ALSo tone down lostmauth negation then we can see elven.
playing against DC OP GF GWF I can´t imagine that my only viable cc Hadar grasp changes anything with or without TEB
I am really courious about meeting some player with that enchant, in most cases that will be DC OP GF i guess bc they can reach high defence even without T Negation
time to test terror /plaguefire + encounter/feats that reduce their DR from lets say 80%-cap down to 60%
most classes have feats and encounter that do so
that would be 100% less DR against your not piercing damage
OP is no big deal for warlock bc of these weared damageloops with his aura, these loops would get bigger, go TEB please
GF will profit a lot i guess, DC too but against DC´s the best options are knockbacks/prones atm, so knock back and debuff he is gonna get eat more damage imo
Elven Battle is currently bugged and reduces Into The Fray duration, which is a core encounter for nearly every top GF. So you won't see many GFs using it, until they fix it.
The BIGGEST issue with Negation and Elven is the fact they have NO "downtime". ALL other enchants with the exception of Briar (which is worthless) have downtime. THAT is what makes them balanced and maybe even under perform!
So INSTEAD of "nerf this nerf that etc" what SHOULD be done is propose a "downtime" to these enchants.
So here an EN EXAMPLE:
Elven:
Upon being controlled you gain "insert buff name here". This effect makes you 80% resistance to all forms of control for 6 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds.
You can play with the duration etc just an example.
Negation:
Gain a stack of negation each time you are hit. each stack provides 3% damage resistance. Once you reach 10 stacks you gain "insert buff name here" which provides you with 30% damage resistance for 10 seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds.
Both of these could have potential downtime now and would now create "openings" in which to unload all your burst damage.
So just like Soulforged (which the heal from this should not be restricted by healing depression BTW) has a "downtime" so would these enchants.
THIS is how you balance them.
+1
i think DEV can look into this...
both strong enchnt elven and negation need downtime..yes ..cant agree more...
I brought up Vanilla WoW specifically to point out a factually inaccurate statement... which was quoted and specifically referenced by saying "This is a factually inaccurate statement." You specifically claimed that without CC reduces PvP to nothing more than a damage vs. defense equation. I assumed this was hyperbolic as TEB does not actually eliminate CC. As such, Vanilla WoW seemed to be a good counter to false assertion. You response does not even address this. You simply ignore and go off on a tangent rant.
The longest running up to 8 or even 10? What CC's are you talking about? Fear? Incapacitates? Those are fundamentally different types of CC. Fear broke early all the time, could be cleansed, was subject to additional CC breaks, and some preemptive immunities.. Incapacitates broke on damage and were used not to kill the target but to isolate another player(s). Additionally, as you accused me of hiding information, which I did not, you are ignoring critical aspects of CC in WoW. Hard CC essentially comes in two flavors. The first is free, unconditional CC. It's always on a long CD. The second is a CC group that is conditional/limited and/or requires significant resources investment. The CDs are shorter but still pretty much longer virtually every encounter power in Neverwinter.
Now, things, of course, have changed overtime in WoW. I played through Pandas. There has been a consistent pattern of significantly reducing damage output in a PvP setting. As fights last longer, CC is, of course, inherently less problematic.
No, cycling through categories is not how you dealt with that in PvP. You dealt with it by target swapping. I do not believe you seriously PvPed in WoW due to this statement.
I've had CWs CC the absolute hell out of me in 1v1 scenarios. Granted, they can't kill me. There's very few, if any, people I've met who can kill me in a 1v1 scenario TEB or not. I have been permanently CC'd off a node before and taken damage that would have killed more standard Paladin builds... eventually. Maybe you're doing it wrong.
"Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite."
Please point out where I said a class was "excessively powerful." On a related note, I did not even say that CC unbalances a game. I said it has the potential for the greatest negative impact on PvP. This is because, aside from a few masochists, no one likes being unable to control their character in PvP.
I don't know what to say other than you're doing it wrong. I watch CWs kill people all the time in CC durations. I suspect you are undergeared.
I'm really curious to know what class you played because while I played there was not a single class that could CC for more than 15 seconds without reliance on conditional, soft CC used to isolate not kill.
"In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications." While I could have been more specific, it's pretty much implied here that immunity is category specific. Additionally, while we're talking about not hiding information, let's talk about how it was actually diminishing returns. Second application duration was reduced by 50%. Third application duration was reduced by 75%.
No, they were not limited between 4 and 6 seconds. Yes, they were much longer CDs.
What's the CD on Entangling Force? 18 seconds? 20 seconds? Let's use 20. Rank 4 drops that to 14. We'll pretend you're geared and have good recovery because you aren't a scrub. That's what? 8.75 second CD? How long do you want this CC to last? 2.5 to 4 seconds? Longer in a geared build? That is one of the most absolutely preposterous things I've ever heard.
Yes, I'd like an ability that CC'd people for at least 30% to 45% of the CD and the ability to run 3 additional CC abilities. That doesn't sound dumb at all... /eyeroll
Yes, and stuns were on much longer CDs. Logic would dictate that if you had CC with shorter duration, the CD on a CC breaker would be shorter.
Diminishing returns >>>>>> 1/3 CC duration reduction. Your point is irrelevant.
And no, I don't think your CC build idea would be "overpowered." I think it's ridiculous and bad for the game.
[Edited out the insults. Keep it civil please. Thank you. - Kreatyve]
downtimes suck, if i pay 10+ mil for an enchant i want it to work all the time not some, they tried negation with downtime, everybody ran with SF, maybe add a downtime to vorpal - 10 sec crit 20 sec cd ?
that is why nobody is using the other enchants that they have stupid downtime, and i cant really express how much of a "genius" one must be to bring SF, a completely different type enchant in this
If there is, I really hope someone would start a thread to increase the popularity of fireburst enchantments. I have a bunch of those I wouldn't mind selling. LOL
Anyone else see a pattern here? I think this discussion is great. I've already learned a lot just reading it. I do think that this kind of nerf this/that discussion takes away from the fact that the underlying issue boils down to one fact:
There will always be at least one OP class/build/enchant/gear set in this game for every mod that we get.
I don't know if this is intentional or if it's due to the fact that the original devs are now gone and the current devs are up to their necks and can barely take a breath much less step back and look at the bigger issues. I hope they get the chance to step back because the continued discussion about this type of issue, mod after mod, is becoming tedious for all of us.
If you want something to be nerfed, just PM me in-game to see if I have that item. If I don't, it's safe to get one. If I do, it will be nerfed in the next patch. That's how it's worked for me since Mod 2.
Carry on.
Maybe an Oppressor could do it but CWs 95% are Not Oppressors.
With Elven battle CWs entangling force is about 1 sec so you don't need to put in CC breaker.
you highlighted an interesting point.
reduce paladins tankiness and dc healing, increase hr damage 'cuz we are aiming at a faster paced combat, which is good.
Good for only people accustomed to heavily armed/armored classes that rely on bruteforce. There are actually classes builds that emphasize on technicality, you know.
Imagine a nice, professional wrestling match, where a "technician" type and a classic, old-style "big man" type squares off in the ring. The big man is a towering presence with raw strength, power, and durability, whereas the technician is shorter, relative much more small in build, and therefore needs to rely on stuff like more speed, more tricky moves, and tactical shots to weak areas of the big man to momentarily stun him to get his signature moves in.
And in that match, guess what happens when somebody simply disallows every single technical, stunning move the technicain has.
Is it a fast paced combat? Oh sure. It's gonna be fast paced in that the big man is simply gonna beat the technician to a pulp, thus, the match ending quickly.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yea,...nice one..fast pace combat good...
CC need to look into again....give us immunity after CC landed...
and elven can be toned down
Give me immunity to damage after prior damage lands, then.
Fair deal, right? If some people think that their own mistake of falling to a victim of focused attacks, and getting chain-CCd by multiple people in the vicinity is unfair. then by the same logic my class with low defenses being focus-fired by multiple people in the vicinity is also unfair.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
yes we got alot already..its called enchantment..dude...
deflect..defense.... "NEGATION"....its there any enchantment reduce CC??....dOooh....
i know...i knowww.....
oh yea....ELVEN BATTLE,,,,its the ONE taht you always crying about...