The TEB is not OP on my CW. I still die like paper. On DCs and OPs it's a different issue, the problem is not the enchantment, but the classes that need some fixing. On the rogues, I don't think it makes any difference, due to all the dodges, deflect and stealth, you can't cc them even when they have no enchantments.
The TEB is not OP on my CW. I still die like paper. On DCs and OPs it's a different issue, the problem is not the enchantment, but the classes that need some fixing.
You die like a paper because the enchant doesn't add any DR. You die from someone swinging a sword at your skull, not by holding you down with magic powers.
On the rogues, I don't think it makes any difference, due to all the dodges, deflect and stealth, you can't cc them even when they have no enchantments.
That's where you'd be wrong.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You die like a paper because the enchant doesn't add any DR. You die from someone swinging a sword at your skull, not by holding you down with magic powers.
Yes, and that's my choice. I chose not to be held down and to forgo DR. There is a compromise, that's why I think EB is fine the way it is.
The same goes for the CC-CW vs the DPS-CW, each chose their own path, they will win some and lose some.
Yes, and that's my choice. I chose not to be held down and to forgo DR. There is a compromise, that's why I think EB is fine the way it is.
The problem is, its not a valid choice. It's not even a choice at all in the first place. When you put on TEB, it's not you who are dodging the CCs, or even actively putting points into WIS stats to sacrifce something to increase your CC resistance. You're not giving up the blatantly overpowered LostM set to wear Valyndra's for extra 10% protection. You're essentially buying your way out of a combat mechanic which the other side has long and hard invested into, to make it work, by making sacrifices of his own.
Did I demand the devs to remove the 40% tenacity CC-resistance? No. You see, stuff like 40% resistance is a point where you can make promises. It makes things harder for you, but it doesn't break anything.
That 40% CC resistance from tenacity is what split the roles between the CC-Oppressor and rest of the cookie-cutter DPS-CW builds. Prior to that 40% any DPS build can hold and control others sufficiently long enough while at the same time doing nuke damage. After that 40% CC resistance the control that the DPS CWs can do isn't worth a dang, as the longest they'd hold something would be less than 2 seconds, whereas for those who really want to use CCs as their weapon, it required them to sacrifice all damage to streamline themselves with CCs powerful enough to overcome tenacity.
This, is making a choice. You already made a choice when you went a DPS CW build. You gave up CC resistance as well as CC intensity by dumping the WIS stat and min-maxing to DPS related stats, and in turn your weakness became a pitiful, gimmicky weak CC as well as bad base resistance to CCs. This is the consequence of your choice,
And yet, you're allowed to avert those consequences with a single enchantment??
How about if we CC-CWs ask for an enchantment that makes us immune to your ice/lightning damage? We wear one single armor enchantment called "Transcendent Insulation Enchantment", so that we're virtually immune from your stormspell procs as well as your Ice Knives? You think that's fair?
The same goes for the CC-CW vs the DPS-CW, each chose their own path, they will win some and lose some.
You already made your choice as a DPS CW, meaning: you ain't worth krap for, or against, CCs. I made mine as well, meaning my damage is worth for krap as well. So I don't complain when I get nuked by a DPS CW and I can't even scratch him, at which point the DPS CW shouldn't complain if he spends 90% of the time as a popsicle and always loses the initiative because he's out-CCd. This, is what you call "choosing your path".
Buying something from the AH and then foregoing every single consequence of your own choice by equipping it?
That's not choosing a path. That's a cop-out.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The hypocrisy from OP and other EB nerf callers is too real.
Let's take a quick look at who we're dealing with here...
@kweassa: self-proclaimed CW Oppressor meta setter as if they are the first one to ever try it, boasts about perma-CCing people into corners in PvP (as if that in itself is not broken), and now inevitably QQing hard about EB.
@macjae: cookie cutter dps CW and tranny fey/negation user, probably switched from valindra set to lostmauth during last 2x RP, and now boarding the EB nerf train because that's easier to do than taking off the negation training wheels.
@ralexinor: cookie cutter trapper HR, likely used to perma rooting and dazing anything without a CC break until death, fully aware that negation is unmitigatable DR, and yet still nerf calling for EB even though Thorned Roots ticks 3x more on EB users.
Seriously, if players used half the time they spent forumcrafting about how broken and OP EB is, they would have figured out how to counter it. Ever heard of CCs like prones, knockbacks, and pushes? They still work against EB users, and apparently no one has bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB.
Anyway, time to consider what EB users are giving up, which is quite obviously negation. That's right, a whopping 30% unmitigatable DR on top of tenacity, defense/AC (normal) DR, and whatever other layers their class has available.
God help you if you don't already know that the damage you take in PvP is (non-crit, simplified):
DMG(1-tenacityDR)(1-normalDR)(1-otherDR)
Take an ungeared toon with 20% tenacity, 0 normal DR, no other DR layers, and slap a negation on. What happens? They mitigate 120% more damage with negation than without (20% effective DR to 44%).
What do I mean by mitigating 120% more damage? You were mitigating 2k on 10k hits and now you mitigate 4.4k.
But we're forumcrafters here afterall, so let's make it more realistic. A BiS toon with 40% tenacity, 20% normal DR, no other DR layers, and a negation. We probably can't assume that the attacker has a smart build and is stacking enough armor pen to moot out 20% normal DR, but we're going to anyway. What happens? They mitigate 45% more damage with negation than without (40% effective DR to 58%).
Ohhh but what about CWs and their broken shield? They mitigate 21% more damage (58% effective DR to 70%).
Let's be real, mitigating 45% less damage against you in exchange for stamina regen and CC resist that doesn't even apply to all CCs is a HUGE sacrifice no matter what class you are. You literally just chose to have people kill you basically 25% faster by not slotting a negation.
Jesus, and people conspire as to why only a few classes or a few enchants are good at one time? Literally because as soon as another good option comes along people just want to nerf it.
The hypocrisy from OP and other EB nerf callers is too real.
Let's take a quick look at who we're dealing with here...
@kweassa: self-proclaimed CW Oppressor meta setter as if they are the first one to ever try it, boasts about perma-CCing people into corners in PvP (as if that in itself is not broken), and now inevitably QQing hard about EB.
@macjae: cookie cutter dps CW and tranny fey/negation user, probably switched from valindra set to lostmauth during last 2x RP, and now boarding the EB nerf train because that's easier to do than taking off the negation training wheels.
@ralexinor: cookie cutter trapper HR, likely used to perma rooting and dazing anything without a CC break until death, fully aware that negation is unmitigatable DR, and yet still nerf calling for EB even though Thorned Roots ticks 3x more on EB users.
You sound salty.
Seriously, if players used half the time they spent forumcrafting about how broken and OP EB is, they would have figured out how to counter it. Ever heard of CCs like prones, knockbacks, and pushes? They still work against EB users, and apparently no one has bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB.
Clearly you haven't bothered testing control bonus vs control resistance at all.
i.e. Valindra's set being a 15% control bonus (30% when it double procs), becomes a 3% control duration increase or 6% on the double proc after taking EB into account. So no, valindra's set makes no difference.
Prones, knockbacks and pushes. The only class that has a decent amount of prones as part of a usable rotation with dailies is GF. Imagine if EB affected prones too. Good luck seeing a GF land things like Anvil on someone. Let's list the prone/knockback powers of the DPS classes:
GWF: Savage Advance (daily), Avalanche of Steel (daily), Indomitable Strength (IV daily), Crescendo (SM daily)
GF: Bull Charge (encounter), Terrifying Impact (daily), Indomitable Strength (IV daily), Crescendo (SM daily)
CW: Ice Knife (daily), repel (encounter, is a knockback only), Shard of the Endless Avalanche (encounter, good luck if you actually use this thing in pvp since the module 4 nerf), Maelstrom of Chaos (SS daily), technically also Arcane Singularity and the MoF daily I forget the name of but no one uses that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> anyway
TR: Hateful Knives (WK daily)
HR: Boar Charge (encounter)
SW: Harrowstorm (currently not working)
Out of all those powers, the only ones that are part of a standard encounter rotation are CW's repel and GF's bull charge, everything else is a daily or substandard. HR's Boar Charge is a pathetic skill that no one uses because of useless damage and terrible utility overall. Repel's stun is still affected by EB so overall the effect is largely diminished. Ice Knife has a long animation that's easy to dodge if you know what you're doing, and with EB there's no way to cc someone properly before using it.
Hence, the classes most affected by EB, CW and HR, don't really have many options against EB. Yes, Thorned Roots is bugged against EB, that's your problem for using it, not mine, and EB reduces HR's CC to nearly nothing anyway, which isn't too much of a problem since I can still DPS you, however, it does render the class fairly ineffective and there's no other viable build for a HR. Similarly it completely counters Oppressor CWs. The problem with EB isn't necessarily its concept, it's the fact that it completely and utterly negates certain builds, as well as making certain users of it, such as DCs and OPs, pretty unkillable due to the fact that CC was the only way to kill them.
Yes, HR and to a certain extent, CW CC is broken, but EB is not the way to fix that.
Anyway, time to consider what EB users are giving up, which is quite obviously negation. That's right, a whopping 30% unmitigatable DR on top of tenacity, defense/AC (normal) DR, and whatever other layers their class has available.
God help you if you don't already know that the damage you take in PvP is (non-crit, simplified):
DMG(1-tenacityDR)(1-normalDR)(1-otherDR)
Take an ungeared toon with 20% tenacity, 0 normal DR, no other DR layers, and slap a negation on. What happens? They mitigate 120% more damage with negation than without (20% effective DR to 44%).
What do I mean by mitigating 120% more damage? You were mitigating 2k on 10k hits and now you mitigate 4.4k.
But we're forumcrafters here afterall, so let's make it more realistic. A BiS toon with 40% tenacity, 20% normal DR, no other DR layers, and a negation. We probably can't assume that the attacker has a smart build and is stacking enough armor pen to moot out 20% normal DR, but we're going to anyway. What happens? They mitigate 45% more damage with negation than without (40% effective DR to 58%).
Ohhh but what about CWs and their broken shield? They mitigate 21% more damage (58% effective DR to 70%).
Let's be real, mitigating 45% less damage against you in exchange for stamina regen and CC resist that doesn't even apply to all CCs is a HUGE sacrifice no matter what class you are. You literally just chose to have people kill you basically 25% faster by not slotting a negation.
Jesus, and people conspire as to why only a few classes or a few enchants are good at one time? Literally because as soon as another good option comes along people just want to nerf it.
Again, the point is not that EB is stronger than Negation, it's that EB breaks certain builds and classes. That's what you're not understanding.
If you think giving up Negation is such a huge sacrifice, then why do people do it? Why do DCs and OPs use EB instead of Negation? Don't you think that it's because EB's bonus is far more effective than what Negation could ever give to them?
Look at it this way. A DC with Negation might be more difficult to burst down with pure damage, but it's far easier to kill them because you can CC chain them and hence prevent them from laying down AS or healing up, thus allowing you to burst them faster. However a DC with EB might be squishier but you can't prevent them from avoiding your damage entirely with dodges, AS and healing. EB removes the tactics needed, as well as a lot of the counters. It's also nearly impossible to prevent a DC with EB from rotating, and this again removes tactics/counters from the game.
Similar situation with OP. You can burst down some OPs with CC and massive damage, for example by a GF. But what if they're using EB? The frames where you can catch them to kill them are pretty much reduced to nothing. Even if they take more damage, they still have the capability to outheal/etc. it, thus making them even more immortal than before.
EB by itself may not be as strong as Negation, although one can argue it is far better than Negation on certain classes and situations. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. Negation is not the same level of gamebreaking as EB is - whereas Negation simply reduces the damage someone takes, however drastically that may be (honestly speaking, Negation is probably one of the only reasons PvP is semi-balanced this mod, although it'd be more prudent to just reduce everyone's damage by 20-30% and tone negation down), EB completely destroys certain builds and methods of taking out certain classes, because the previous counters that existed, often the only ones, have now been removed because of the bonus provided by EB.
That is what you need to understand. It's not people wanting to keep their Negation/current gear the best, it's the fact that EB destroys certain parts of gameplay. You can argue against this all you want, but the fact is there.
Thread of the month:
Trs and CWs complain about Elven Battle enchant:
What a coinsidense:The two most powerfull Control classes of te game,want the anti cc enchant to get nerfed.
Cw with endless control,incdredibly short cooldawns and dear TR which its cc are DAZES that means annaffected by tenacity.
Cw is already ignnore 66% of tenacity cause in mod2,the usual situation:Impotent whining CWs complaining "hey we cannot kill anything"
meanwhile for them Negation is ok....
LMAO.Trololol.
The posters that posted about Elven enchant are Kewassa (WK Tr) ,Macjae(CW-SW) ,Obsydian (CW) and |Ralexinor (SW -HR).The most CC abusive classes.Seems that is not enough for them ,they don't want their opponent to fight at all.
Elven battle is fine i wear a pure on my GF and it feels great.Although SW controls BYPASS It.I mean the similar to entagle power,which even with pure elven and steel grace rank4 slotted(40% CC resist) and 40% tenacity lasts 2-3 secs.how much is it normal duration?One minute?
I fotgot "SW needs buufs".Meanwhile MacJae SW has a 7-1 kill death ratio.And Misery is melting tanks in pvp like is no tomorrow.
What a hypocritical word!!!
+1000000
hahha,,... hypervoreian this is top notch
only CC "abusing"class...will/happily if TEB nerfed/removed from the game
yea and then theyre "OK" wearing all T.negate become a tank...LMAO Trololol
"The posters that posted about Elven enchant are Kewassa (WK Tr) ,Macjae(CW-SW) ,Obsydian (CW) and |Ralexinor (SW -HR).The most CC abusive classes.Seems that is not enough for them ,they don't want their opponent to fight at all."
hahahha all CCed class ..+1000000
...you want dmg reduce..using Tnegate...but dont forget other non-CC class want reduce CC aswell....
happy hunting
Seriously, if players used half the time they spent forumcrafting about how broken and OP EB is, they would have figured out how to counter it. Ever heard of CCs like prones, knockbacks, and pushes? They still work against EB users, and apparently no one has bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB.
Ok, can I laugh now? Someone give me the queue, so I can laugh out long and hard.
Because, for someone who's announced himself in such colorful manner, bursting out with old-school insults, bearing the name of the game's most notorious bunch of abusive and exploiting arsh-hats.... the effect was somewhat rendered ineffective and useless, in that the total lack of knowledge was exposed far too soon, and it becomes painfully evident you've not even tested out a single piece of what has been so far discussed in this thread.
Shorter, easier words: you're talking out of your arsh because you don't like some of us, and actually have zero clue as to what its actually like because you've never tried, or even seen any of it actually happen. Statements such as these:
"...apparently no one has bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB..."
...it does nothing but make you look stupid, especially when you opened up with that mighty roar of an insult to each and every one who had posted on this thread in support of the TEB balancing.
Valyndra's?
You want to know how much Valyndra's counters TEB? This is the equipment/stats I run with. ■ 25 WIS (+15%)
■ Valyndra's set bonus(+15%)
■ Orb of Imposition + Glacial Movement (+24%)
■ Offhand artifact augment to Orb of Opposition (+5% )
■ Offhand artifact stat bonus (+386 Control Bonus rating)
■ Valyndra's Shard(Leg.) (+460 Control Bonus rating)
■ Horn of Lostmauth(Leg.) (+467 Control Bonus rating)
■ Imperial Rod(Leg.) (+480 Control Bonus rating)
15 + 15 +24 + 5 + (control rating bonuses = 10) = +69%
...and how much does TEB provide? 80%. Not even counting Tenacity resistance, TEB by itself just nullifies everything I've set up for.
I haven't got access to the final ToD boons, so if you add in those, I get +84%.... but then add in tenacity CC resistance(40% x 0.33) and I still can't deal more bonus effect than the resistance someone has, because at this point that ~95% is the limit I can go upto in PvP, whereas for the CC resistance there's still racial bonuses, CC resist bonuses from artifacts, feat-given bonuses like the Paladin's have, class feature bonuses like GWFs have.. etc etc.. that's hasn't been factored in.
In this game, with TEB as a factor, no matter how much you try, control resist always trumps control bonus without even trying... so those of you who say NW CCs are too much, tell me again how that works, because it seems people saying such stuff haven't ever tried or experimented all the garbage they're spewing from their mouths.
The last time I EF'd someone wearing TEB, he broke out of it before my next attack even activated and dodge/teleported away from it.
"EF activation animation" → hold → "power finish animation" → "activate next power animation"
...and in that small time between the "hold" part and the "activate next power" part, the opponent breaks off and dodge/teleports. That's what TEB does, and that's what good Valyndra's does.
So, tell me again how I've "not bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB", because apparently, not only have I bothered, but I experience first-hand everyday how it makes jacksheet of a difference when a single enchantment denies my entire build.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
if you changes your negation enchant against a elfenbattel, depending on the classes you meat in PVP its clever, not unfair imo, contesting a node against some CW builds is much more like beeing a punching ball getting thrown over the map, and frosted for ages, 80% resist + ap gain feel a bit much, esp for tanky classes like DC OP who only can be defeated by cc
so facing these mates the only counter is: get tons or arp (if you have some gear that provides arp) + terror to melt his defence, because he sacrficed nearly 30% hard DR for beeing cc immune
plaguefire does not perform in my case as it should-->3 stacks are hard to get
so in case you are a pro player I would expect you to have a "second" setup/setpiece of armor and enchantments in the pocket, and some damageencounter, if not its a lose
since i pug I take what comes along, T negation , T elfen battle.... I prefer opponents with elfen battle by far, bc my cc options are small as warlock, not the same like CW, Hunter or TR, since 50% of my CC got "fixed" to uselesness-->prone effect
for kweassa/mirror i feal pitty, sounds like a nightmare for your build
I would suggest , try to change strategy , in case there is no strategy you may be right openig his thread and are ready for a respec....:(
@macjae The biggest nuke CWs have is Ice Knife, which requires setting up with cc first due to the long casting time. Not going to land on a good Elven Battle user.
hits me even shifted out of sight simetimes, did they chande anything about that encounter?
What about giving elven battle stacks like negation?
Such as... you gain a stack per second while controlled, when reached 10 stacks (10 seconds) the 80% bonus activates (or) you become fully immune for the next X seconds. Keep the stamina regen though. That's an annoying bit, but the stamina isn't the gamebreaking matter these guys are arguing about. For the most part.
Such as... you gain a stack per second while controlled, when reached 10 stacks (10 seconds) the 80% bonus activates (or) you become fully immune for the next X seconds. Keep the stamina regen though. That's an annoying bit, but the stamina isn't the gamebreaking matter these guys are arguing about. For the most part.
That, is actually something to think about. Perhaps there is a way to implement the insanely high CC resistance, in a non-insane sort of way to have it under control.
I'll need to think a bit more about this, but I think rust's second idea seems to hit a note with me.
It reminds me of the SWTOR Resolve mechanics, which, if your character is hit with CCs consecutively, the "Resolve" meter fills up.. and once it reaches full Resolve, you are granted total CC-immunity for X-amount of seconds. Basiclaly, it's a GWF Determination (hmmm...'determination' and 'resolve'... synonyms... coincidence?? ) without the temp-HP effect.
■ In this case it might be worth a shot, but clearly would require some reference/baseline into determining how fast those stacks build up, or falls off.
■ It's also interesting to note that it would actually suggest a demerit to the persistent AoE-CC powers like smokebomb... if you spam it too much, then it's long duration and constant activation would mean that it also allows the 'victim' to become more CC-immune more often. Same story with trappers -- too much CC spamming under given time unit, then the opponent will build up the stacks quickly and be granted immunity
■ It also rewards better coordination between players, because if 3~4 people go too much of an overkill against a single opponent, and just spam whatever CCs they ahve ASAP en masse, then this "overkill" of CCs would then actually be counter-intuitive and allow the opponent to fire up CC-immunity more often, so people can learn to actually control their CCs, cycle it better, and try not to 'over-do' it.
Yeah. A lot of merits to think about. Very interesting.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
"Every veteran of PvP knows that without CC as a factor, PvP is nothing but a raw clash of defense and damage. Whomever has the bigger guns and thicker skin, who attacks more, wins."
This is a factually inaccurate statement. WoW vanilla PvP had a fraction of the CC we see today. You seem to be arguing that PvP takes more skill when you can perma CC someone and blast them into oblivion. No. When a single character is capable of fully CCing a target and killing them in the CC duration, it is a problem. That takes absolutely no skill or thought. When you eliminate the scenario above, target priority, peals, interrupting (CC still interrupts), objectives, unaffected CC (knockback), etc., become more important. Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite.
CC, BY FAR, has the greatest capacity for a negative impact on PvP. As CC started becoming more and more prevalent in PvP, we've regularly seen attempts to address. As a "veteran of PvP," I'm sure you are aware that virtually every single MMO with PvP has diminishing returns on CC. Neverwinter does not have this.
In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications.
In SWTOR, you get total immunity for a brief period of time after being hit with too many CC effects (no categories).
In WAR, I think you had immediate immunity for ~3 times the duration of the time you were CC'd. I can't remember.
Additionally, almost every single MMO with PvP has a cheap, universally available CC breaker. Neverwinter does not. I do run a mythic Ogham's. It is very expensive and greatly reduces my build options.
In short, without diminishing returns in the game and a universally available CC breaker that does not require the artifact slot, the arguments for nerfing TEB are null and void.
"Every veteran of PvP knows that without CC as a factor, PvP is nothing but a raw clash of defense and damage. Whomever has the bigger guns and thicker skin, who attacks more, wins."
This is a factually inaccurate statement. WoW vanilla PvP had a fraction of the CC we see today. You seem to be arguing that PvP takes more skill when you can perma CC someone and blast them into oblivion. No. When a single character is capable of fully CCing a target and killing them in the CC duration, it is a problem. That takes absolutely no skill or thought. When you eliminate the scenario above, target priority, peals, interrupting (CC still interrupts), objectives, unaffected CC (knockback), etc., become more important. Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite.
CC, BY FAR, has the greatest capacity for a negative impact on PvP. As CC started becoming more and more prevalent in PvP, we've regularly seen attempts to address. As a "veteran of PvP," I'm sure you are aware that virtually every single MMO with PvP has diminishing returns on CC. Neverwinter does not have this.
In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications.
In SWTOR, you get total immunity for a brief period of time after being hit with too many CC effects (no categories).
In WAR, I think you had immediate immunity for ~3 times the duration of the time you were CC'd. I can't remember.
Additionally, almost every single MMO with PvP has a cheap, universally available CC breaker. Neverwinter does not. I do run a mythic Ogham's. It is very expensive and greatly reduces my build options.
In short, without diminishing returns in the game and a universally available CC breaker that does not require the artifact slot, the arguments for nerfing TEB are null and void.
cannot agree more ,...coramac9799....+100
ppl who wants ElvenBattle nerfed ..are "sorry" players abusing CC..perma****...that non CC class cant counter it...
AT ALL.....yea yea need 2 ppl do this..and that..,.....its ****ing broken...if some1 cant counter CC....that is why.. elvenBattle is born...
coramac9799 said .... SWOTR, WAR...i myself playing UO-felluca open pvp..DAOC, GW2, Lineage2...they all have immunity after some1 is CC'ed...if im not wrong ...lol its long time already...but DAOC its definetly..sure.....in NW..nope...that is why all ppl who agreed nerfing elvenbattle is class that want abusing broken cc in NW..
no need to eliminate CC at all,....just give cc immunity after you ve been cc'ed,
finished..end of story
that is why all ppl who agreed nerfing elvenbattle is class that want abusing broken cc in NW..
no actually im a dps cw and i disagree with elven battle. i mean im not bitching to nerf it yet because i havnt actually seen it make a substantial appearance in pvp yet like negation did. but so far what i have seen is already near immortal dc's become completely immortal.
1) People comparing/complaining about negation - I am 90% sure negation will see its nerf coming soon. Just wait. We all agree its needed.
So the MAIN issue is how to adjust elven (if it needs adjusting) and I guess maybe INSTEAD of the CC resist it offers now. What if it provided CC immunity for 5 seconds after being CCd.
So rather than giving it 100% uptime it would allow for ONE CC then Immunity for 4-5 seconds. Then allowing another then more immunity.
You could take that a step further and make it work more like other armor enchants where upon being CCd, you have a % chance to become immune to CC for X seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every X seconds.
So it provides a nice "window" for CC resist so you cant be perma locked down, hwoever also isnt 100% uptime. I think thats the issue here is the 100% uptime - which is the SAME issue negation has.
If negation and elven had "downtime" noone would QQ about them at all.
CC, BY FAR, has the greatest capacity for a negative impact on PvP. As CC started becoming more and more prevalent in PvP, we've regularly seen attempts to address. As a "veteran of PvP," I'm sure you are aware that virtually every single MMO with PvP has diminishing returns on CC. Neverwinter does not have this.
In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications.
In SWTOR, you get total immunity for a brief period of time after being hit with too many CC effects (no categories).
In WAR, I think you had immediate immunity for ~3 times the duration of the time you were CC'd. I can't remember.
+1 on this.
WAR (still my favourite MMO for PvP to date, due to the modes and balance) CC was used sparingly to optimise opportunity against a player. Pretty much after CCing a player once, you weren't getting another chance to do it for a bit. (There was no cc-locking). CC there was basically a setup to do something huge, or a last second defense. It wasn't part of a blind rotation.
WAR (still my favourite MMO for PvP to date, due to the modes and balance) CC was used sparingly to optimise opportunity against a player. Pretty much after CCing a player once, you weren't getting another chance to do it for a bit. (There was no cc-locking). CC there was basically a setup to do something huge, or a last second defense. It wasn't part of a blind rotation.
Then go friggin' actually try if you can use CCs to (a) set up to do something huge, or (b) use it as a last second defense against someone using TEB. In words of the president, "Go try it", and then tell me how nicely you were able to set up something huge or use it as a mode of defense.
At this point I'm seeing so many deluded individuals here with just no idea how much reduction TEB offers against CCs, that I'm starting to wondering if any of these people have actually used TEB, or fought against TEB with CC dependent class. Or better yet, have these people even played a CC-dependent class in the game?
Post edited by kweassa on
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is a factually inaccurate statement. WoW vanilla PvP had a fraction of the CC we see today.
WoW is a game that ran for 11 years and still running, with 3~4 major expansions and went through major GFX updates because the game ran for so long... and you're quoting "vanilla" era of that game as a reference to support your claims? I've played WoW from the Burning Crusade to the Cataclysm era, been with a major arena-PvP group within my server so don't think I don't know how WoW CC works.
WoW CCs last on average between 4 to 6 seconds, the longest running upto 8 or even 10. They have diminishing returns on same CC types but only because the average duration is much longer than what we have in NW, and cycling through different CC types is an easy and legit way to bypass the diminishing returns and there actually are classes that have such multiple assortment of CCs.
Tell me how that applies as a comparison to NW.
You seem to be arguing that PvP takes more skill when you can perma CC someone and blast them into oblivion. No. When a single character is capable of fully CCing a target and killing them in the CC duration, it is a problem. That takes absolutely no skill or thought.
So aside from the trapper HR associated with a few bugs and a really bad design, which classes currently do that, again? The 'strawman' ?
When you eliminate the scenario above, target priority, peals, interrupting (CC still interrupts), objectives, unaffected CC (knockback), etc., become more important. Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite.
You still haven't told me just which class in this game is currently "excessively powerful".
Like I've mentioned before in many posts EF DPS-CWs cast lasts barely two seconds, and my own EF with a significant and focused investment into CCs last maybe four. The game already offers a base 40% CC resistance with contemporary PvP armorsets, which means from the beginning CC-dependent classes are already penalized by 30~40% duration reduction for the sake of PvP balance.
So again, which class, beside the bugged trappers, are "excessive", and can kill within a duration of the CCs? Mod3 CWs?
CC, BY FAR, has the greatest capacity for a negative impact on PvP. As CC started becoming more and more prevalent in PvP, we've regularly seen attempts to address. As a "veteran of PvP," I'm sure you are aware that virtually every single MMO with PvP has diminishing returns on CC. Neverwinter does not have this.
I've already addressed this above. Go look at the average CC durations in those games with diminishing returns, and hen tell me how it compares to NW, where there's barely CC that lasts for more than full 3 seconds, and where a 6 second daze from a certain class in mod5 caused public outroar.
Even with diminishing returns, in my WoW days I'd CC a target for more than 15 seconds straight by cycling my CCs around, but let's just not mention the fact that games with diminishing returns usually also offer you CC cycling. In that sense, sure, I'd support a diminishing returns for NW IF a GWF stun, or a CW EF, or a TR DazingStrike.. lasted for like 6 seconds.
In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications.
After 3 applications of the same type. Cycling different types easily bypasses this. Let's not hide crucial information.
In SWTOR, you get total immunity for a brief period of time after being hit with too many CC effects (no categories).
In SWTOR, CC powers have one minute recharge, so the base frequency of CCs themselves are a lot shorter, while the duration it lasts is hard-set between 4~6 seconds with no way to reduce them. Again, if you want comparisons, don't cherry pick just the ones that you want people to know.
In WAR, I think you had immediate immunity for ~3 times the duration of the time you were CC'd. I can't remember.
Didn't play this one.
Additionally, almost every single MMO with PvP has a cheap, universally available CC breaker. Neverwinter does not. I do run a mythic Ogham's. It is very expensive and greatly reduces my build options.
In almost every single of those MMOs you mention, CC durations are GUARANTEED for those who use it. Also, those "universally available CC breakers" in WoW has a 2min recharge. Same in SWTOR. It gives you an opportunity to break out of CC once, in 2min intervals.
Did I mention none of those classes in those games are offered a hefty base CC resistance for free, like people benefit in NW? The moment you get contemporary gear, you already knock off CC durations by 1/3rd. Think about that one.
In short, without diminishing returns in the game and a universally available CC breaker that does not require the artifact slot, the arguments for nerfing TEB are null and void.
In short, every argument you pulled out from other examples, you tried to tactically hide the context from us, cherrypicking the parts that support your view, and yet not mentioning why such measures were necessary in those games.
I belive I've effectively dismantled all of your such arguments -- thoroughly. Guess it pays to have played all those games in the last 20 years. Experience does count for something.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
At this point I'm seeing so many deluded individuals here with just no idea how much reduction TEB offers against CCs, that I'm starting to wondering if any of these people have actually used TEB, or fought against TEB with CC dependent class. Or better yet, have these people even played a CC-dependent class in the game?
The classes I play are a Righteous DC, Trapper HR (not currently PvPing because roots should respect dodging), and a WK Scoundrel, so yeah... I have an inkling of what it means to be depend on CC.
Rather than going on the attack, which is your propensity it seems, you might consider taking a step back and read what is being said. Neither my post nor the one that I was responding to are arguing that you are wrong about TEB. Rather, it was just an interjection that the reliance on CC chains in this game is a design flaw, as it can often break PvP (as do immortal builds).
I tend to appreciate the testing you do with different builds and input you add to the forums in that regard, but you tend to be belligerent toward anyone not espousing an opinion not your own, and, frankly, the world isn't against you.
Rather than going on the attack, which is your propensity it seems, you might consider taking a step back and read what is being said. Neither my post nor the one that I was responding to are arguing that you are wrong about TEB. Rather, it was just an interjection that the reliance on CC chains in this game is a design flaw, as it can often break PvP (as do immortal builds).
Like what?
So many strawman arguments thrown around, depicting as if CC was some sort of a viral-outbreak that's made the game worse in some way, except I've been here since mod2 and upto current mod6 I've never seen it. Mod2~mod3 CWs were the closest thing that came to such definition except the introduction of tenacity has effectively removed them from having both "potent CC" and "potent DPS".
So give me an example of "CC chains" in this game, except the trapper. Because the last time I checked every class that is not immune to CCs can dodge/teleport it, and every class that cannot dodge/teleport it has immunities.
Are we calling stuff like the repel-EF as "excessive"? In the entirety the duration of such chains doesn't last for even 4 seconds for most CWs. The GWFs can chain stun with FLS+takedown or flourish+takedown, but then no GWF uses with those two powers on the encounter slot. The long-chain dazes of Scoundrel builds from mod5 are now entirely destroyed and gone, and as one of the few surviving scoundrels in the game I now rely on singular moments of Dazing Strike hits to do my damage. SWs have the game's strongest stun, but that's also singular, and can be avoided.
So just which "game breaking cahin of serious CCs" are we talking about in PvP?
The one that kills you because you've been focused by 4~5 people hellbent on killing you? You're getting hit by 4~5 chains of CCs in those cases because you've been the target of their focus fire while you were either alone, or your teammates in the near vicinity didn't care about what happened to you. When something like that happens, aren't you supposed to die? Or is there some other sort of serious PvP breaking CC chains (besides the bugged trappers) I'm not aware of?
I wanna know.
I tend to appreciate the testing you do with different builds and input you add to the forums in that regard, but you tend to be belligerent toward anyone not espousing an opinion not your own, and, frankly, the world isn't against you.
The belligerence didn't begin until someone poked me first.
I tend poke back.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
■ Let's imagine that there's an enchantment that gives you 200% more resistance to lightning/ice damage. And then, let's see what happens if someone slaps on that enchantment on a certain class and ...
It as to stop it's destroying CW control we have no control at all against all the classes while it serves them perfectly DC SW HR Paladin and that's ridicules.
Or is there some other sort of serious PvP breaking CC chains (besides the bugged trappers) I'm not aware of?
Every mod since last year, there has been a class built on CC chains.
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
The belligerence didn't begin until someone poked me first.
I tend poke back.
Frankly, nobody had said a word about you before you went on the attack and started calling people deluded, so don't blame your aggression on anyone else. It's not their character flaw.
Every mod since last year, there has been a class built on CC chains.
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
You are aware that TEB doesn't help much against trappers in that there's a bug associated with it, as well as their nuissance in this game isn't from the duration, but the amount of non-stop repetition, are you not? Their dazes already last for like only quarter~half second. It does help a bit with getting out of that long root, but you're still constantly micro-dazed -- which is the only case CCs have any meaning as "interrupts" because it can be repeated at insane intervals.
But then, for the price of that benefit, what do the others suffer? Do you not see this part, or is this part simply ignored because TEB can benefit your own DC class?
What about the SWs that lose their only meains of real attack initiation by having their one good stun neutered?
What about CWs like me which is CC/support role, totally denied because of one enchantment?
What about the non-Sabo TRs that cannot even get one Dazing Strike to last more than 2 seconds?
What about the people that have no way to drop the shield long enough on that two-shot GF to kill it?
What about EVERYONE that suffers from an immortal DC/OP?
Can you really justify this enchantment because it offers you minor rememdy to one class that bothers you?
Frankly, nobody had said a word about you before you went on the attack and started calling people deluded, so don't blame your aggression on anyone else. It's not their character flaw.
Then you obviously don't read what people write. I recommend you take some time (if you deem it necessary) to go through the pages before your post and see where the 'problems' begin.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Ok, these attacks have gone on far enough. I am pretty sure after 3 pages of data and arguing, the devs should have enough information weather or not the enchant needs some work. I'm closing this thread.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Ok all. I'm going to reopen this thread, however, this thread can not continue to devolve into a flame war. If you want your voices heard then remain civil. As long as somebody supplies evidence to support their claim it is not a nerf request.
If you wish to dispute the evidence then you must also do so in a civil manner with your own evidence rather than a knee jerk reaction. Do not insult other users under any circumstance or make accusations of this being a nerf request.
Feedback is welcome and desired but you must do so in a respectful manner or not at all.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited July 2015
Hello one is the fact about wizards: WIZard with negation damage dealer no investement to control vs elven battle and some control bonus+ resist 0 -1.
ALSo tone down lostmauth negation then we can see elven.
maybe TEB is too strong, can´t say , T Negation is stronger imo
playing against DC OP GF GWF I can´t imagine that my only viable cc Hadar grasp changes anything with or without TEB
I am really courious about meeting some player with that enchant, in most cases that will be DC OP GF i guess bc they can reach high defence even without T Negation
time to test terror /plaguefire + encounter/feats that reduce their DR from lets say 80%-cap down to 60%
most classes have feats and encounter that do so
that would be 100% less DR against your not piercing damage
OP is no big deal for warlock bc of these weared damageloops with his aura, these loops would get bigger, go TEB please
GF will profit a lot i guess, DC too but against DC´s the best options are knockbacks/prones atm, so knock back and debuff he is gonna get eat more damage imo
Comments
You die like a paper because the enchant doesn't add any DR. You die from someone swinging a sword at your skull, not by holding you down with magic powers.
That's where you'd be wrong.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Ayyy caramba.. don't even get me started on what a fight between a CC-CW v DPS-CW turns into when the DPS guy wears TEB...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Yes, and that's my choice. I chose not to be held down and to forgo DR. There is a compromise, that's why I think EB is fine the way it is.
The same goes for the CC-CW vs the DPS-CW, each chose their own path, they will win some and lose some.
The problem is, its not a valid choice. It's not even a choice at all in the first place. When you put on TEB, it's not you who are dodging the CCs, or even actively putting points into WIS stats to sacrifce something to increase your CC resistance. You're not giving up the blatantly overpowered LostM set to wear Valyndra's for extra 10% protection. You're essentially buying your way out of a combat mechanic which the other side has long and hard invested into, to make it work, by making sacrifices of his own.
Did I demand the devs to remove the 40% tenacity CC-resistance? No. You see, stuff like 40% resistance is a point where you can make promises. It makes things harder for you, but it doesn't break anything.
That 40% CC resistance from tenacity is what split the roles between the CC-Oppressor and rest of the cookie-cutter DPS-CW builds. Prior to that 40% any DPS build can hold and control others sufficiently long enough while at the same time doing nuke damage. After that 40% CC resistance the control that the DPS CWs can do isn't worth a dang, as the longest they'd hold something would be less than 2 seconds, whereas for those who really want to use CCs as their weapon, it required them to sacrifice all damage to streamline themselves with CCs powerful enough to overcome tenacity.
This, is making a choice. You already made a choice when you went a DPS CW build. You gave up CC resistance as well as CC intensity by dumping the WIS stat and min-maxing to DPS related stats, and in turn your weakness became a pitiful, gimmicky weak CC as well as bad base resistance to CCs. This is the consequence of your choice,
And yet, you're allowed to avert those consequences with a single enchantment??
How about if we CC-CWs ask for an enchantment that makes us immune to your ice/lightning damage? We wear one single armor enchantment called "Transcendent Insulation Enchantment", so that we're virtually immune from your stormspell procs as well as your Ice Knives? You think that's fair?
You already made your choice as a DPS CW, meaning: you ain't worth krap for, or against, CCs. I made mine as well, meaning my damage is worth for krap as well. So I don't complain when I get nuked by a DPS CW and I can't even scratch him, at which point the DPS CW shouldn't complain if he spends 90% of the time as a popsicle and always loses the initiative because he's out-CCd. This, is what you call "choosing your path".
Buying something from the AH and then foregoing every single consequence of your own choice by equipping it?
That's not choosing a path. That's a cop-out.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Let's take a quick look at who we're dealing with here...
@kweassa: self-proclaimed CW Oppressor meta setter as if they are the first one to ever try it, boasts about perma-CCing people into corners in PvP (as if that in itself is not broken), and now inevitably QQing hard about EB.
@macjae: cookie cutter dps CW and tranny fey/negation user, probably switched from valindra set to lostmauth during last 2x RP, and now boarding the EB nerf train because that's easier to do than taking off the negation training wheels.
@ralexinor: cookie cutter trapper HR, likely used to perma rooting and dazing anything without a CC break until death, fully aware that negation is unmitigatable DR, and yet still nerf calling for EB even though Thorned Roots ticks 3x more on EB users.
Seriously, if players used half the time they spent forumcrafting about how broken and OP EB is, they would have figured out how to counter it. Ever heard of CCs like prones, knockbacks, and pushes? They still work against EB users, and apparently no one has bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB.
Anyway, time to consider what EB users are giving up, which is quite obviously negation. That's right, a whopping 30% unmitigatable DR on top of tenacity, defense/AC (normal) DR, and whatever other layers their class has available.
God help you if you don't already know that the damage you take in PvP is (non-crit, simplified):
DMG(1-tenacityDR)(1-normalDR)(1-otherDR)
Take an ungeared toon with 20% tenacity, 0 normal DR, no other DR layers, and slap a negation on. What happens? They mitigate 120% more damage with negation than without (20% effective DR to 44%).
What do I mean by mitigating 120% more damage? You were mitigating 2k on 10k hits and now you mitigate 4.4k.
But we're forumcrafters here afterall, so let's make it more realistic. A BiS toon with 40% tenacity, 20% normal DR, no other DR layers, and a negation. We probably can't assume that the attacker has a smart build and is stacking enough armor pen to moot out 20% normal DR, but we're going to anyway. What happens? They mitigate 45% more damage with negation than without (40% effective DR to 58%).
Ohhh but what about CWs and their broken shield? They mitigate 21% more damage (58% effective DR to 70%).
Let's be real, mitigating 45% less damage against you in exchange for stamina regen and CC resist that doesn't even apply to all CCs is a HUGE sacrifice no matter what class you are. You literally just chose to have people kill you basically 25% faster by not slotting a negation.
Jesus, and people conspire as to why only a few classes or a few enchants are good at one time? Literally because as soon as another good option comes along people just want to nerf it.
Keeping it 100,
chocshoppe
You sound salty.
Clearly you haven't bothered testing control bonus vs control resistance at all.
Duration of control:
[Control Duration] * (1 + [Control Bonus]) * (1 - [Control Resistance])
i.e. Valindra's set being a 15% control bonus (30% when it double procs), becomes a 3% control duration increase or 6% on the double proc after taking EB into account. So no, valindra's set makes no difference.
Prones, knockbacks and pushes. The only class that has a decent amount of prones as part of a usable rotation with dailies is GF. Imagine if EB affected prones too. Good luck seeing a GF land things like Anvil on someone. Let's list the prone/knockback powers of the DPS classes:
GWF: Savage Advance (daily), Avalanche of Steel (daily), Indomitable Strength (IV daily), Crescendo (SM daily)
GF: Bull Charge (encounter), Terrifying Impact (daily), Indomitable Strength (IV daily), Crescendo (SM daily)
CW: Ice Knife (daily), repel (encounter, is a knockback only), Shard of the Endless Avalanche (encounter, good luck if you actually use this thing in pvp since the module 4 nerf), Maelstrom of Chaos (SS daily), technically also Arcane Singularity and the MoF daily I forget the name of but no one uses that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> anyway
TR: Hateful Knives (WK daily)
HR: Boar Charge (encounter)
SW: Harrowstorm (currently not working)
Out of all those powers, the only ones that are part of a standard encounter rotation are CW's repel and GF's bull charge, everything else is a daily or substandard. HR's Boar Charge is a pathetic skill that no one uses because of useless damage and terrible utility overall. Repel's stun is still affected by EB so overall the effect is largely diminished. Ice Knife has a long animation that's easy to dodge if you know what you're doing, and with EB there's no way to cc someone properly before using it.
Hence, the classes most affected by EB, CW and HR, don't really have many options against EB. Yes, Thorned Roots is bugged against EB, that's your problem for using it, not mine, and EB reduces HR's CC to nearly nothing anyway, which isn't too much of a problem since I can still DPS you, however, it does render the class fairly ineffective and there's no other viable build for a HR. Similarly it completely counters Oppressor CWs. The problem with EB isn't necessarily its concept, it's the fact that it completely and utterly negates certain builds, as well as making certain users of it, such as DCs and OPs, pretty unkillable due to the fact that CC was the only way to kill them.
Yes, HR and to a certain extent, CW CC is broken, but EB is not the way to fix that.
Again, the point is not that EB is stronger than Negation, it's that EB breaks certain builds and classes. That's what you're not understanding.
If you think giving up Negation is such a huge sacrifice, then why do people do it? Why do DCs and OPs use EB instead of Negation? Don't you think that it's because EB's bonus is far more effective than what Negation could ever give to them?
Look at it this way. A DC with Negation might be more difficult to burst down with pure damage, but it's far easier to kill them because you can CC chain them and hence prevent them from laying down AS or healing up, thus allowing you to burst them faster. However a DC with EB might be squishier but you can't prevent them from avoiding your damage entirely with dodges, AS and healing. EB removes the tactics needed, as well as a lot of the counters. It's also nearly impossible to prevent a DC with EB from rotating, and this again removes tactics/counters from the game.
Similar situation with OP. You can burst down some OPs with CC and massive damage, for example by a GF. But what if they're using EB? The frames where you can catch them to kill them are pretty much reduced to nothing. Even if they take more damage, they still have the capability to outheal/etc. it, thus making them even more immortal than before.
EB by itself may not be as strong as Negation, although one can argue it is far better than Negation on certain classes and situations. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. Negation is not the same level of gamebreaking as EB is - whereas Negation simply reduces the damage someone takes, however drastically that may be (honestly speaking, Negation is probably one of the only reasons PvP is semi-balanced this mod, although it'd be more prudent to just reduce everyone's damage by 20-30% and tone negation down), EB completely destroys certain builds and methods of taking out certain classes, because the previous counters that existed, often the only ones, have now been removed because of the bonus provided by EB.
That is what you need to understand. It's not people wanting to keep their Negation/current gear the best, it's the fact that EB destroys certain parts of gameplay. You can argue against this all you want, but the fact is there.
Cheers, hope you can understand.
+1000000
hahha,,... hypervoreian this is top notch
only CC "abusing"class...will/happily if TEB nerfed/removed from the game
yea and then theyre "OK" wearing all T.negate become a tank...LMAO Trololol
"The posters that posted about Elven enchant are
hahahha all CCed class ..+1000000
...you want dmg reduce..using Tnegate...but dont forget other non-CC class want reduce CC aswell....
happy hunting
Ok, can I laugh now? Someone give me the queue, so I can laugh out long and hard.
Because, for someone who's announced himself in such colorful manner, bursting out with old-school insults, bearing the name of the game's most notorious bunch of abusive and exploiting arsh-hats.... the effect was somewhat rendered ineffective and useless, in that the total lack of knowledge was exposed far too soon, and it becomes painfully evident you've not even tested out a single piece of what has been so far discussed in this thread.
Shorter, easier words: you're talking out of your arsh because you don't like some of us, and actually have zero clue as to what its actually like because you've never tried, or even seen any of it actually happen. Statements such as these:
...it does nothing but make you look stupid, especially when you opened up with that mighty roar of an insult to each and every one who had posted on this thread in support of the TEB balancing.
Valyndra's?
You want to know how much Valyndra's counters TEB? This is the equipment/stats I run with.
■ 25 WIS (+15%)
■ Valyndra's set bonus(+15%)
■ Orb of Imposition + Glacial Movement (+24%)
■ Offhand artifact augment to Orb of Opposition (+5% )
■ Offhand artifact stat bonus (+386 Control Bonus rating)
■ Valyndra's Shard(Leg.) (+460 Control Bonus rating)
■ Horn of Lostmauth(Leg.) (+467 Control Bonus rating)
■ Imperial Rod(Leg.) (+480 Control Bonus rating)
15 + 15 +24 + 5 + (control rating bonuses = 10) = +69%
...and how much does TEB provide? 80%. Not even counting Tenacity resistance, TEB by itself just nullifies everything I've set up for.
I haven't got access to the final ToD boons, so if you add in those, I get +84%.... but then add in tenacity CC resistance(40% x 0.33) and I still can't deal more bonus effect than the resistance someone has, because at this point that ~95% is the limit I can go upto in PvP, whereas for the CC resistance there's still racial bonuses, CC resist bonuses from artifacts, feat-given bonuses like the Paladin's have, class feature bonuses like GWFs have.. etc etc.. that's hasn't been factored in.
In this game, with TEB as a factor, no matter how much you try, control resist always trumps control bonus without even trying... so those of you who say NW CCs are too much, tell me again how that works, because it seems people saying such stuff haven't ever tried or experimented all the garbage they're spewing from their mouths.
The last time I EF'd someone wearing TEB, he broke out of it before my next attack even activated and dodge/teleported away from it.
"EF activation animation" → hold → "power finish animation" → "activate next power animation"
...and in that small time between the "hold" part and the "activate next power" part, the opponent breaks off and dodge/teleports. That's what TEB does, and that's what good Valyndra's does.
So, tell me again how I've "not bothered to look at the difference valindra set makes against someone using EB", because apparently, not only have I bothered, but I experience first-hand everyday how it makes jacksheet of a difference when a single enchantment denies my entire build.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
so facing these mates the only counter is: get tons or arp (if you have some gear that provides arp) + terror to melt his defence, because he sacrficed nearly 30% hard DR for beeing cc immune
plaguefire does not perform in my case as it should-->3 stacks are hard to get
so in case you are a pro player I would expect you to have a "second" setup/setpiece of armor and enchantments in the pocket, and some damageencounter, if not its a lose
since i pug I take what comes along, T negation , T elfen battle.... I prefer opponents with elfen battle by far, bc my cc options are small as warlock, not the same like CW, Hunter or TR, since 50% of my CC got "fixed" to uselesness-->prone effect
for kweassa/mirror i feal pitty, sounds like a nightmare for your build
I would suggest , try to change strategy , in case there is no strategy you may be right openig his thread and are ready for a respec....:(
hits me even shifted out of sight simetimes, did they chande anything about that encounter?
Such as... you gain a stack per second while controlled, when reached 10 stacks (10 seconds) the 80% bonus activates (or) you become fully immune for the next X seconds. Keep the stamina regen though. That's an annoying bit, but the stamina isn't the gamebreaking matter these guys are arguing about. For the most part.
That, is actually something to think about. Perhaps there is a way to implement the insanely high CC resistance, in a non-insane sort of way to have it under control.
I'll need to think a bit more about this, but I think rust's second idea seems to hit a note with me.
It reminds me of the SWTOR Resolve mechanics, which, if your character is hit with CCs consecutively, the "Resolve" meter fills up.. and once it reaches full Resolve, you are granted total CC-immunity for X-amount of seconds. Basiclaly, it's a GWF Determination (hmmm...'determination' and 'resolve'... synonyms... coincidence??
■ In this case it might be worth a shot, but clearly would require some reference/baseline into determining how fast those stacks build up, or falls off.
■ It's also interesting to note that it would actually suggest a demerit to the persistent AoE-CC powers like smokebomb... if you spam it too much, then it's long duration and constant activation would mean that it also allows the 'victim' to become more CC-immune more often. Same story with trappers -- too much CC spamming under given time unit, then the opponent will build up the stacks quickly and be granted immunity
■ It also rewards better coordination between players, because if 3~4 people go too much of an overkill against a single opponent, and just spam whatever CCs they ahve ASAP en masse, then this "overkill" of CCs would then actually be counter-intuitive and allow the opponent to fire up CC-immunity more often, so people can learn to actually control their CCs, cycle it better, and try not to 'over-do' it.
Yeah. A lot of merits to think about. Very interesting.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is a factually inaccurate statement. WoW vanilla PvP had a fraction of the CC we see today. You seem to be arguing that PvP takes more skill when you can perma CC someone and blast them into oblivion. No. When a single character is capable of fully CCing a target and killing them in the CC duration, it is a problem. That takes absolutely no skill or thought. When you eliminate the scenario above, target priority, peals, interrupting (CC still interrupts), objectives, unaffected CC (knockback), etc., become more important. Your idea that CC should be prevalent and excessively powerful to promote skillful play is laughable. It does the exact opposite.
CC, BY FAR, has the greatest capacity for a negative impact on PvP. As CC started becoming more and more prevalent in PvP, we've regularly seen attempts to address. As a "veteran of PvP," I'm sure you are aware that virtually every single MMO with PvP has diminishing returns on CC. Neverwinter does not have this.
In WoW, CC categories give 15 seconds of immunity after 3 applications.
In SWTOR, you get total immunity for a brief period of time after being hit with too many CC effects (no categories).
In WAR, I think you had immediate immunity for ~3 times the duration of the time you were CC'd. I can't remember.
Additionally, almost every single MMO with PvP has a cheap, universally available CC breaker. Neverwinter does not. I do run a mythic Ogham's. It is very expensive and greatly reduces my build options.
In short, without diminishing returns in the game and a universally available CC breaker that does not require the artifact slot, the arguments for nerfing TEB are null and void.
cannot agree more ,...coramac9799....+100
ppl who wants ElvenBattle nerfed ..are "sorry" players abusing CC..perma****...that non CC class cant counter it...
AT ALL.....yea yea need 2 ppl do this..and that..,.....its ****ing broken...if some1 cant counter CC....that is why.. elvenBattle is born...
coramac9799 said .... SWOTR, WAR...i myself playing UO-felluca open pvp..DAOC, GW2, Lineage2...they all have immunity after some1 is CC'ed...if im not wrong ...lol its long time already...but DAOC its definetly..sure.....in NW..nope...that is why all ppl who agreed nerfing elvenbattle is class that want abusing broken cc in NW..
no need to eliminate CC at all,....just give cc immunity after you ve been cc'ed,
finished..end of story
no actually im a dps cw and i disagree with elven battle. i mean im not bitching to nerf it yet because i havnt actually seen it make a substantial appearance in pvp yet like negation did. but so far what i have seen is already near immortal dc's become completely immortal.
1) People comparing/complaining about negation - I am 90% sure negation will see its nerf coming soon. Just wait. We all agree its needed.
So the MAIN issue is how to adjust elven (if it needs adjusting) and I guess maybe INSTEAD of the CC resist it offers now. What if it provided CC immunity for 5 seconds after being CCd.
So rather than giving it 100% uptime it would allow for ONE CC then Immunity for 4-5 seconds. Then allowing another then more immunity.
You could take that a step further and make it work more like other armor enchants where upon being CCd, you have a % chance to become immune to CC for X seconds. This effect cannot happen more than once every X seconds.
So it provides a nice "window" for CC resist so you cant be perma locked down, hwoever also isnt 100% uptime. I think thats the issue here is the 100% uptime - which is the SAME issue negation has.
If negation and elven had "downtime" noone would QQ about them at all.
+1 on this.
WAR (still my favourite MMO for PvP to date, due to the modes and balance) CC was used sparingly to optimise opportunity against a player. Pretty much after CCing a player once, you weren't getting another chance to do it for a bit. (There was no cc-locking). CC there was basically a setup to do something huge, or a last second defense. It wasn't part of a blind rotation.
Then go friggin' actually try if you can use CCs to (a) set up to do something huge, or (b) use it as a last second defense against someone using TEB. In words of the president, "Go try it", and then tell me how nicely you were able to set up something huge or use it as a mode of defense.
At this point I'm seeing so many deluded individuals here with just no idea how much reduction TEB offers against CCs, that I'm starting to wondering if any of these people have actually used TEB, or fought against TEB with CC dependent class. Or better yet, have these people even played a CC-dependent class in the game?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
WoW is a game that ran for 11 years and still running, with 3~4 major expansions and went through major GFX updates because the game ran for so long... and you're quoting "vanilla" era of that game as a reference to support your claims? I've played WoW from the Burning Crusade to the Cataclysm era, been with a major arena-PvP group within my server so don't think I don't know how WoW CC works.
WoW CCs last on average between 4 to 6 seconds, the longest running upto 8 or even 10. They have diminishing returns on same CC types but only because the average duration is much longer than what we have in NW, and cycling through different CC types is an easy and legit way to bypass the diminishing returns and there actually are classes that have such multiple assortment of CCs.
Tell me how that applies as a comparison to NW.
So aside from the trapper HR associated with a few bugs and a really bad design, which classes currently do that, again? The 'strawman' ?
You still haven't told me just which class in this game is currently "excessively powerful".
Like I've mentioned before in many posts EF DPS-CWs cast lasts barely two seconds, and my own EF with a significant and focused investment into CCs last maybe four. The game already offers a base 40% CC resistance with contemporary PvP armorsets, which means from the beginning CC-dependent classes are already penalized by 30~40% duration reduction for the sake of PvP balance.
So again, which class, beside the bugged trappers, are "excessive", and can kill within a duration of the CCs? Mod3 CWs?
I've already addressed this above. Go look at the average CC durations in those games with diminishing returns, and hen tell me how it compares to NW, where there's barely CC that lasts for more than full 3 seconds, and where a 6 second daze from a certain class in mod5 caused public outroar.
Even with diminishing returns, in my WoW days I'd CC a target for more than 15 seconds straight by cycling my CCs around, but let's just not mention the fact that games with diminishing returns usually also offer you CC cycling. In that sense, sure, I'd support a diminishing returns for NW IF a GWF stun, or a CW EF, or a TR DazingStrike.. lasted for like 6 seconds.
After 3 applications of the same type. Cycling different types easily bypasses this. Let's not hide crucial information.
In SWTOR, CC powers have one minute recharge, so the base frequency of CCs themselves are a lot shorter, while the duration it lasts is hard-set between 4~6 seconds with no way to reduce them. Again, if you want comparisons, don't cherry pick just the ones that you want people to know.
Didn't play this one.
In almost every single of those MMOs you mention, CC durations are GUARANTEED for those who use it. Also, those "universally available CC breakers" in WoW has a 2min recharge. Same in SWTOR. It gives you an opportunity to break out of CC once, in 2min intervals.
Did I mention none of those classes in those games are offered a hefty base CC resistance for free, like people benefit in NW? The moment you get contemporary gear, you already knock off CC durations by 1/3rd. Think about that one.
In short, every argument you pulled out from other examples, you tried to tactically hide the context from us, cherrypicking the parts that support your view, and yet not mentioning why such measures were necessary in those games.
I belive I've effectively dismantled all of your such arguments -- thoroughly. Guess it pays to have played all those games in the last 20 years. Experience does count for something.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The classes I play are a Righteous DC, Trapper HR (not currently PvPing because roots should respect dodging), and a WK Scoundrel, so yeah... I have an inkling of what it means to be depend on CC.
Rather than going on the attack, which is your propensity it seems, you might consider taking a step back and read what is being said. Neither my post nor the one that I was responding to are arguing that you are wrong about TEB. Rather, it was just an interjection that the reliance on CC chains in this game is a design flaw, as it can often break PvP (as do immortal builds).
I tend to appreciate the testing you do with different builds and input you add to the forums in that regard, but you tend to be belligerent toward anyone not espousing an opinion not your own, and, frankly, the world isn't against you.
Like what?
So many strawman arguments thrown around, depicting as if CC was some sort of a viral-outbreak that's made the game worse in some way, except I've been here since mod2 and upto current mod6 I've never seen it. Mod2~mod3 CWs were the closest thing that came to such definition except the introduction of tenacity has effectively removed them from having both "potent CC" and "potent DPS".
So give me an example of "CC chains" in this game, except the trapper. Because the last time I checked every class that is not immune to CCs can dodge/teleport it, and every class that cannot dodge/teleport it has immunities.
Are we calling stuff like the repel-EF as "excessive"? In the entirety the duration of such chains doesn't last for even 4 seconds for most CWs. The GWFs can chain stun with FLS+takedown or flourish+takedown, but then no GWF uses with those two powers on the encounter slot. The long-chain dazes of Scoundrel builds from mod5 are now entirely destroyed and gone, and as one of the few surviving scoundrels in the game I now rely on singular moments of Dazing Strike hits to do my damage. SWs have the game's strongest stun, but that's also singular, and can be avoided.
So just which "game breaking cahin of serious CCs" are we talking about in PvP?
The one that kills you because you've been focused by 4~5 people hellbent on killing you? You're getting hit by 4~5 chains of CCs in those cases because you've been the target of their focus fire while you were either alone, or your teammates in the near vicinity didn't care about what happened to you. When something like that happens, aren't you supposed to die? Or is there some other sort of serious PvP breaking CC chains (besides the bugged trappers) I'm not aware of?
I wanna know.
The belligerence didn't begin until someone poked me first.
I tend poke back.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Mod 3 : GWF - Prone Chain
Mod 4: Freezelock with Entangling Force, Ray of Frost, Icy Rays/Ice Knife (with CWs ignoring 33% tenacity.) This one is still used but not as effective as first month of Mod 4.
Mod 5: Scoundrel TR daze chains. As pointed out in other forum postings, Saboteur was dazing almost as much as Scoundrels with a combination of Dazing Strike, Smokebomb, Shadow Strike, into an SE finisher. (This is still being used in Mod 6).
Mod 6: HR trapper - crushing roots build.
So it has been a function of game design, and has always created a PvP issue in those cases. That is not to say that there aren't other broken mechanics by poor design.
Frankly, nobody had said a word about you before you went on the attack and started calling people deluded, so don't blame your aggression on anyone else. It's not their character flaw.
You are aware that TEB doesn't help much against trappers in that there's a bug associated with it, as well as their nuissance in this game isn't from the duration, but the amount of non-stop repetition, are you not? Their dazes already last for like only quarter~half second. It does help a bit with getting out of that long root, but you're still constantly micro-dazed -- which is the only case CCs have any meaning as "interrupts" because it can be repeated at insane intervals.
But then, for the price of that benefit, what do the others suffer? Do you not see this part, or is this part simply ignored because TEB can benefit your own DC class?
What about the SWs that lose their only meains of real attack initiation by having their one good stun neutered?
What about CWs like me which is CC/support role, totally denied because of one enchantment?
What about the non-Sabo TRs that cannot even get one Dazing Strike to last more than 2 seconds?
What about the people that have no way to drop the shield long enough on that two-shot GF to kill it?
What about EVERYONE that suffers from an immortal DC/OP?
Can you really justify this enchantment because it offers you minor rememdy to one class that bothers you?
Then you obviously don't read what people write. I recommend you take some time (if you deem it necessary) to go through the pages before your post and see where the 'problems' begin.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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ALSo tone down lostmauth negation then we can see elven.
playing against DC OP GF GWF I can´t imagine that my only viable cc Hadar grasp changes anything with or without TEB
I am really courious about meeting some player with that enchant, in most cases that will be DC OP GF i guess bc they can reach high defence even without T Negation
time to test terror /plaguefire + encounter/feats that reduce their DR from lets say 80%-cap down to 60%
most classes have feats and encounter that do so
that would be 100% less DR against your not piercing damage
OP is no big deal for warlock bc of these weared damageloops with his aura, these loops would get bigger, go TEB please
GF will profit a lot i guess, DC too but against DC´s the best options are knockbacks/prones atm, so knock back and debuff he is gonna get eat more damage imo