test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
PUG and Premade Queue
reds351
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
It has been said a hundred times before just implement it, everyone is sick of fighting premades.
Edit: Yes i know it will make queue times worse but atm i spend 10 mins waiting only to fight a premade cant get much worse.
Edit: Yes i know it will make queue times worse but atm i spend 10 mins waiting only to fight a premade cant get much worse.
0
Comments
They just need to parse the actual queue a lot better. Premade teams should NOT be allowed to be maintained entering a PVP match. Teaming up and queueing should only ensure you are all in the same match. Once you enter, it should work like a draft system IE by class then IL.
Team #1: 1st Pick (DC/OP), 4th Pick (OP/GF), 5th Pick(GWF/TR), 8th Pick (GWF/TR), 9th Pick (CW/HR)
Team #2 2nd Pick (DC/OP), 3rd Pick (OP/GF), 6th Pick (GWF/TR), 7th Pick(GWF/TR), 10th Pick (CW/HR)
That way you have the most balanced teams and each team has a fair amount of skill and IL between them.
I like the idea of a solo queue and separate team queue. What do you think of Domination being solo queue but when there is a PVP event (NCL) there is a ranked team queue?
Team queues will be on the team leaderboards
Solos on the solo leaderboards.
Thoughts?
The top of the NCL leaderboard is 60-70% the big PVP guilds. Kinda what happens when a 5man 3.5kIL teams fights pugs all day long.
Mostly is just a pain in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like I played a GG today and 5/10 were midnight express. Its fine that they want to play together but they should have to play against other premades.
For dom when you get to mid and the other team is EOA/Absolute 5 man your team just gives up. then you have to sit on point a good 10 mins while you wait for the point counter.
For the mean time a simple split between premande and pug needs to be done. but even for pug groups its doing weird things like team1 = SW,SW,TR,GWF,HR team2=OP,OP,DC,CW,CW btw that is a actual team comp i had to fight one game. (I was the TR we lost)
That will never happen.
PvP guilds will not choose to fight within the same guild. Especially if they entered together. At best they will cancel each other out and they wont play. At worst, lower ranked member(s) will leave the match.
That is a good compromise.
Members of a team will not be ranked as individuals. If they want to be judged and ranked as individuals... they need to enter solo.
For example, when a premade is matched against a pug, it's extremely likely that one or more players will give up and just sit at the campfire. This always happens anyway, but with the league in mind, players are much more likely to do it because it means fewer deaths and avoids being farmed, i.e. it's encouraging them to afk in order to lose 'less' than they will by just dying all the time.
At the same time, high score premades know that they can easily farm to maintain their top league positions. They get lots of initial kills in, no deaths, and a match win. There's no fun in a team just one shotting people until they give up, then everyone sitting around doing nothing for 5 minutes until the match ends, but that's what happens.
As for queue times, I think it's more complicated. Even as things stand you can wait a while for a match, so there's obviously a problem with people wanting to do PvP in general. I know that people get frustrated going into matches and quickly realising that there's absolutely no chance of winning. I think that fixing the matching system should be the priority, and then encouraging people to play -- not trying to encourage people to play with a broken matching system.
I like the Idea of solo and team queues, as do most to all players. Just a thought though, allow small parties and solos to queue via the team queue and give teams that queue with full party the option to play pug teams. Maybe it's just a ckeckbox that is selected when queuing. It will allow partial teams to queue and make for quicker times for full parties.
I'm frustrated as hell right now because of this. Multiples of one class is very annoying. To many tanks/healers makes the games last forever. Games that last more than an hour is a little much, besides it's boring to try and kill the almost un-killable. To many TRs is annoying because they are so OP and when you have more than one on your team the players that can't go invisible get targeted much more and take the deaths that the TRs avoid. Multiple CWs is ridiculous because the have huge amounts of CC and Burst damage and there shield on tab is way over the top. Multiple HRs are annoying because of there high CC. One is bad enough, but when there is two it's ridiculous.
This would solve alot of what is so annoying about domination PVP right now!
Everyone has a won/loss record. Put them into 2 brackets, casual and elite.
Once someone has played 10 games their won loss percentage will be calculated and their team will be matched against the most similar groupings of winning percentages. So if you win 90%of your matches--for whatever reason--then you get matched against as high a win percentage team as the matchmaker can find in 10 minutes. If not, your queue fails no match found.
So if you win because of teamwork, you will be in a match against hard players. If you win because of gear, same thing. If you win because of your class or build, same thing, and if you win because of your awesome skill ... you get the chance to prove it in a competitive match.
The best teams win. So why not match winners against winners?
Approximately 3 months ago, multiple big PvP guilds has stopped calling Pops, this is to encourage competitive PvP and this policy is still in place.
In other words, we have the same chance of meeting up with our own guild's premades just like everyone else, if we happen to be in the same game, we fight, until the result become obvious, if its a close fight, then we fight till the end, simple as that.
Approximately 2~3 weeks ago, there was one night I had 4 pops in a row, and all 4 were all premades from our own guild (2 different groups), we did not stop fighting.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
During an event like ncl i do expect to play vs other solo q players.
Games should be solo q or full premade during a competitve event.
This allows more single players in poll for the matchmaking to work right and maybe take ilevel into consideration.
This is a really good idea
A premade queue would be a good thing
I know someone will say they only have a team of 2 or 3 and want to stay together...
Very sad
But
Please make this change
one queue for singles and one for Teams
Urlord
This has been a steady idea on these forums and I'd love it. A solo/team queue would make queue times faster and counter some flaws in the matchmaking system.
Please limit this to Domination though. Let Gauntlgrym be the casual alternative without team restrictions, matchmaking and leaver penalties.
The problem is you could get team A with one BIS and the rest low level (below 2k) with team B with players at 2.5k plus but without a BIS player and team A would still dominate because of the BIS player. I've played in many of these type of games.
In my humble opinion, a solo queue and separate team queue would be awesome. I solo queue 98% of the times but usually I'm included in matches where people joined as duo or trio (because the system need to fill the team with other players, obviously) and that's not fair, either winning or losing is not fun due to the imbalance in the matches. It would be nice to fight 5 players that also went solo because each one of them have the same expections than me.
Regarding to NCL, improve it: let it be 2 leaderboards, solo and teams. PvP must be fun and most players hate fighting premades and being included in these parties. If there is a duo in queue then fill it with a trio. Is it taking too long? Then go play a couple of rounds in solo queue and try again later.
Btw, GWF is being included for a tanking role in both PvP and PvE and this is a complete mistake. Please, take a look to this. This issue have been addressed several times in the forum.
This would be a VERY positive first step. The MASSIVE problem this will bring though is that classes are clearly not balanced on 1v1s and this has been specifically confirmed directly to me from Panderus himself. So how do you ensure that you have equal "teams". I cant tell you how many times I solo Q (most of my games) and I end up with say 2 DCs on my team (they have no DCs) and then my opponents have 2 CWs (we have none). How is that going to be a balanced fight if "balance" comes from "roll" you play in a group?
It almost seems that you need to start incoorporating the PVE "ROLL" into the PVP ques. Thus each team would consist of 3 DPS + 1 Healer/Support + 1 "tank".
This would be a further step in that direction for these "solo Q" options.
Another important factor would be to NOT allow more than 2 of any class in the "team que" so you cant run these "troll comps" with 3 Paladins or something.
Another important factor is to try and balance based on GEAR FIRST. I have written extensively on this in many threads. It seems to me that item level should be the focus of the PVP Ques. There are several liabilities to this, so I have taken the time to develop what I think would be the BEST pvp Que system given the population, PVE/PVP divide, gear swapping, Boosting ETC.
Step 1) CHANGE the matchmaking system to NOT work off "ELO" but instead works of "Item Level".
Step 2) Create a hidden "feature" (doesnt have to be) that saves a "high water mark" of your item level. This would be the basis for the "matching" since you cant swap in and out of gear to change what match making is looking for.
Step 3) For matchmaking how it could ideally work is it "grabs" ONE player as its "base". Then searches for other players qued that are +/- 500 total ilevel points from that player. Once it has 10 players, it POPs and players can enter. For every 60 seconds in Que it expands those by 100 points. So after 5 minutes it will match players +/- 1000 Itemlevel points from you (meaning a 2000 item level SWING).
Step 4) "Grouped" Players ALL get counted as if they are the HIGHEST "ilevel" player in the group. Thus if team A consists of 2k. 2,5k. 3,5k. 4,5k. and 1,5k. It acts as if this groups is entirely made up for 4,5k ilevel players. This prevents "boosting" and actually makes for more "fun" games since any "premade" advantage is leveled off since the PUGs would by definition having a higher item level on average.
Step 5) (Optional) This is to alleviate the PVE/PVP difference. Another "layer" that could be added ONTO this is factoring in tenacity levels. So not JUST "ilevel" is looked at but it also has a "high water mark" tenacity value as well that is also factored in. Meaning a 3,5k PVE player would probably not get matched against a 4k PVP ilevel player.
This would be a better system IMO then even adding the solo/team Q options etc.
Focused on GEAR creates the best "level playing ground" you can have which THEN allows "skill" to decide the victor. When you try and match based on "skill/ELO" then its GEAR that is the deciding factor - something that is a MAJOR "Weakness" to Neverwinter in a "SWAT" analysis.
However I wouldn't be so harsh concluding 'these pvp guilds dont deserve to be called as pvp guild', cus in my experience, most of these big PvP guild's premades player has the gears/skills/experience to take up 2~3 average players at once. This game's pug vs pug fight, pug vs premade fight and premade vs premade fights all fights a very different level.
Pug vs Pug - guys just have fun and enjoy smash smash smash, best in my opinion.
Premade vs Pug - its usually just a one sided game, and is boring 95+% of the time, the game ends within 5 mins.
Premade vs Premade - This is the level most of the players dont have the chance to experience, the fights no longer requires just personal fighting skill, but tactics, teamwork at a totally different level. Many ppl that hasn't been there might think it's about gears, but in fact its more. Your DC needs to know how to float around the map to heal across all players, your players will be assigned jobs to either keep 2 nodes contested and score with one particular point, or your members needs to know how to quickily form a small 2man team to take down your targets at a specific node fast to score (such as HR+GWF to take down TR quickily, or CW+GWF to take down DC, or CW+CW for DC is great too), or if all nodes become contested, then we need to find out how to eliminate the weakest point ASAP to score some points, or stop their players from stepping on a node to get a few more scores, or tagging your DC/OP with their switching DCs to diminsh their threatening level, or hardcapping a node by turning it blue and that either means you score the node when the enemy leave/dead, or stay contested even if your man goes down. (so they dont score right away).
Its very unfortunate that a lot of undergeared players only look at top players as exploiters or zen hacker, not realizing a lot of those BiS players has put in a lot of time to work on their characters and most of them plays legitly. Personally, I have been assumed many things, when I sprint almost nonstop people said I use speed hack (in fact its stamina management+battlefury), when I deflect with fey thistle in smoke bomb people accused me using hacks/exploits to 'attack them' through smokebomb, when I utilize my buffs to create a big hit, people thinks I just have superior gears, not realizing its a good combination of class feature+encounters' buffs. When I follow some TRs so well, they accuse me using targetlock instead of trying to work out why they get caught so often (cus classic TRs do 2~3 rolls then smoke bomb, how hard would it be to predict their cycle of movements...)
Anyway, enough said, I enjoy Pug vs Pug fight, and look forward to see more of you in pug fights! ：）
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
2. about high teamwork, i was at many pugs, very hard matches, where every move matters, miracle wins, so high teamworks is not only at premades
3. and about that premades ... of course they have great gear (if they havent, they arent allowed join pvp guild) and EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE GREAT GEAR, thanks to matchmaking they spend majority of time very easy farming, so they are farmers more than pvpers. Rarely i see someone of them in pug, with your exception. If you-they dont see pride opportunity as lost at what they are doing, dont know whats else point out. (disclaimer - pride isnt wearing pirate costume)
icyphish, when you take over your guild leadership and turn the boat?
But often they have a greater challenge in matches.
My guild actually has some of the best officers I dont think I can do any better, some of them are big names like Tyrion, Lancer and Aryoux, others might not be as high profiled but are very skillful, very knowledgable, very talented and with very nice personality like Isolde and Flynn. People just need to stop accusing players from using hacks/exploits only because they come from PvP guilds like I have severally been accused but other than that I can say most of the long time members in our guild are all very nice and helpful people, approach them nicely and you will know what I mean
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
well said...+1000
i think this is good idea...winners against winners...
dev please read...thank youuu
sorry i want to change my quote..this is NOT good idea..THIS IS BRILLIANT IDEA from "vexus99"
so nomore low IL meet BiS players anymore....fresh 70 will meet casual PvPer...elite PvP will against elites...
if BiS player want to stomp/easy kill...he/she need to loose alot of pvp...to join the casual queue..
right now..pvp stat is useless...K/D i dont care..Win/Loose do nothing..just a leaderboard..
very nice vexus99...this is what community for...ideas..
pleaseeeeee DEV read this and consider this....thank you.
and for premade not sure tho lol...how to do it...i think group of 5 against group of 5...like dungeon...you cannot enter pvp if not 5 ppl in party...
@ asterotg - That's a very good list. I follow everyone of them myself but sadly some players don't.
The worst of behavior comes from a Paladin I met today. He was in a Premade team (my team was a Pug team and many below 2k IL), and he's all decked out in Mythic Artifacts and BIS gears.
My team used 'say' to announced GG and asked for 600 points so we can get tokens... His reply "No trade, so noobs won't (join) PVP...". Then he and another team mate proceeded to kill anyone who left campfire.
this is one example...that we need elite VS elite....noob VS noob...
not like that pally elite want to get easy kill..and so happy killing babies...
i can agree with you on this, manys can use broken stuff unintentionally, but still dont understand, are they trying pvping? or trying collect winning and farming? i really wish to see their proposed skill on my own eyes and not only to be roflstomped alone by 4 of them, Its too much to ask? and i dont think about dueling under spawn, i am not so good geared nor like that format
IMO step 5 is not optional, but mandatory and IL is secondary. Why? I qued at the same time as a friend with a similar IL CW with my CW. I had full PvP set, he had PvE gear. I Was able to kill him with at will powers and procs alone. His CCs had ca. half the time and he did ca. half the dmg. No skill there.
Furthermore with the current matchmaking system a win/lose rating is pure dumb luck. You get a good team, instant win. You get matched with a 'noob-1.xk IL-0 tenacity'-semipremade, instant lose. You are in a balanced match, the team with the guy who gets a DC loses. This is not based on skill or gear, but luck.
My CW has 3.5k IL, full PvP equip, legendary equip, R10+, not BIS but really good gear. If I get qued against ppl wth decent PvP gear, I die 1v2. Even against 0 tanacity PuGs I lost some matches bc my teammates played worse. ONE player can cap ONE point. If the enemy shows some understanding and your team does not, your team follows you to leech caps and kills, while your enemies avoid you, to cap the other two points. Guess what, you will lose. You will lose with a 25/2 k/d ratio, first in ranking due to the fact, that you ran from one red node to the other, to stop your team from bleeding points and with teammates who think, that you are an idiot, bc after some polite suggestions, some sarcastic comments and some resoning your BS level is reached and you tell your teammates, what you think about their tactics and skills.
Thanks shillaen.
Yeah, if full premade teams want to fight one another, they should be able to do so. Unfortunately,
The leader boards make it so they do things like call queue pops and coordinate queues. Some people may swap gear for the queue, then when they get a pop they swap in their BiS gear to get a win against less geared opponents. That sort of stuff would be weeded out if we just looked at win/loss percentage.
Crushing casual and new PvP'ers just kills the growth of the PvP community. It would be great to see the incentives align with fostering the PvP community rather than roflstomping it.
Create tournaments that require 100 wins to enter, so the best players have to prove they are the best by racking up 100 wins against other teams that have a high winning percentage.
Everyone likes close matches.